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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.18 07:09:00 -
[1]
I've just had the idea and haven't really thought it through but it would be great to have a live DVD/USB stick containing a minimal Linux distro plus the Eve client on it, this way if I'm at a friends house, at my parents or wherever and I need to change skills, I can just pop the USB stick in and reboot the computer and get straight onto eve.
Has anyone attempted something like this yet? Any suggestions on a distro to use, I'm most familiar with the RPM based stuff namely Fedora but I have done Gentoo based live cd's before. Only thing I'm concerned about is the possibility of needing two separate live disks, one with Nvidia drivers in the kernel and one with ATI, anyone have any suggestions as to whether it's possible to ship two kernels on the live cd or similar. Obviously I'm not going to be able to re-distribute the ISO due to the closed source graphics binaries and the eve client, but if people are interested I could write a howto.
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Jameroz
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.02.18 08:30:00 -
[2]
You should be able to use both display cards with same kernel. The display drivers are loaded as modules. Now X server would need to have different configurations, but at the moment Eve is only supported on NVidia cards anyway.
One problem with CD/DVD distro would be the patching... You would need to create new media very often. With rewritable media you could save the patch data on the media ... so it would probably work better in this case. Also all the cache, configs (including overview settings) could then be saved.
I don't think there are limitations about redistributing Eve or the display drivers. Being closed source has nothing to do with being free and freely distributable. But you would need to check that from each of their licences.
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.18 10:49:00 -
[3]
Well I know with the Nvidia module anyway the binary driver can violate the GPL, which is why it's not shipped by default in most distro's, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS
Kororaa used to ship the binary driver pre-installed but got a GPL takedown notice (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/14/2059242) so I'd rather not go through all of that, if I do it, I will not be re-distributing it.
With AMD/ATI going opensource (yeah I'll believe it when I see it), it's less of an issue but distributing a kernel tainted with the Nvidia driver is a not a good idea. So anyway it's more an excerise to see if it can be done and it will be handy to have.
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Rexy
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.19 23:38:00 -
[4]
there was another thread about this not to long ago, several distro's have livecd's that just configure your hardware out of the box. You can even install binary restricted drivers on these things and make them persistent if you run them of a usb-stick. You cant redistribute the eve-client without ccp's permission though.
<unusual big structure 4tw> |
Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.20 12:53:00 -
[5]
As long as the users accept an agreement before installing the drivers you're alright, I thought about creating a Linux Live Distro myself and so have quite a bunch of other people (as you will see when searching the forums for it). I wouldn't mind developing one if you're up to it, I just shot out an email to CCP asking for permission. Will keep you people updated. ____________________________________________
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.20 13:07:00 -
[6]
Cool I started to build one based on Fedora's XFCE spin, you can get the default kickstart file from here ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RahulSundaram/XfceLive ) as it was a fairly minimal environment anyway, makes it hard to keep disk isze down since Eve needs to pull in all the GTK and DBUS stuff.
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Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.20 14:38:00 -
[7]
I thought of the following: Gentoo/LFS based Distro, Firefox with pre-bookmarks for various eve sites, Qalculate (for EVE Math), automatic driver installation and Fluxbox or comparable, maybe E17 with custom EVE interface GUI? That would _ROCK_. ____________________________________________
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CCP Sputnik
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.20 15:44:00 -
[8]
Guys I support this fully, if you need help let me know.
The best way would be to use a supported distribution as base and to integrate a possibility to upgrade the EVE installation, therefor I think a DVD version is not very useful, EVE and the cedega versions have both a very short live time like we have seen with 1.0.2 . A DVD is nice for a single player game which doesn't need updates, for a game like EVE which has to have the same version like the game server this is not very practical.
Just write me here a reply if you need my help with the live linux project and I contact you.
__________________________ CCP Sputnik CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Software Engineer |
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Rexy
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.20 15:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Sputnik Guys I support this fully, if you need help let me know.
The best way would be to use a supported distribution as base and to integrate a possibility to upgrade the EVE installation, therefor I think a DVD version is not very useful, EVE and the cedega versions have both a very short live time like we have seen with 1.0.2 . A DVD is nice for a single player game which doesn't need updates, for a game like EVE which has to have the same version like the game server this is not very practical.
Just write me here a reply if you need my help with the live linux project and I contact you.
Well an approach is to use livecd's in combination with unionfs or a derivative and then making updates like the binary drivers and eve-client persistant. The problem with this however is that unionfs is kinda slow. But you could at least distribute with a a client installed, that means if you start it the updater will only have to fetch some incremental patches rather then the whole package.
<unusual big structure 4tw> |
Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.20 19:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: CCP Sputnik Guys I support this fully, if you need help let me know.
The best way would be to use a supported distribution as base and to integrate a possibility to upgrade the EVE installation, therefor I think a DVD version is not very useful, EVE and the cedega versions have both a very short live time like we have seen with 1.0.2 . A DVD is nice for a single player game which doesn't need updates, for a game like EVE which has to have the same version like the game server this is not very practical.
Just write me here a reply if you need my help with the live linux project and I contact you.
So we have official permission by CCP to publish an EVE Distro? Just want to get it straight. ____________________________________________
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Sevarus James
Minmatar Meridian Dynamics Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.02.20 20:15:00 -
[11]
Just my 2 cents here regarding "permission". I don't believe CCP NEEDS to give or not give permission on this type of distro. My guess here is whether you get CCP "ENDORSEMENT" or not.
A distro isn't EVE, even if it primarily supports EVE. Regardless of how EVE-centric the distro would be, you cannot play EVE without paying, or at least getting a trial account first anyway. That the client is on the disc isn't an issue as its freely available for download in the first place. (As long as there is no "selling" of the distribution commercially. Of course this would violate GPL as well so again, a moot point.)
As Sputnik said, a DVD wouldn't be optimal as its not "minimal". A CD based distro such as ubuntu, sabayon, debian, fedora etc., et.al., that is stripped of everything except the base client installer and perhaps a wine installation would probably work better.
As to the proprietary bits, to keep THAT end legal, the disc would ship with open source drivers and include very visible links or docs on HOW TO get the proprietary video drivers would sidestep that little GNU licensing issue. (Very similar to how Ubuntu does it.)
While you COULD just include the proprietary bits 'native' and be just fine in some areas of the world, you would have legal problems in other areas.
The only other issue would be with the client aging. In short order, the base EVE client instalation would be out of date, and would need either patching or downloading of the entire base.
If this would be a distro with the "official" client, the issue is sidestepped as all you would need is the base installer which would then download and install the client main data package to the USB stick/removable media.
Pretty cool idea, and I hope it gets off the ground. One bit of advice though. I'd wait until the Trinity 1.1 release though, as this supposedly will have the linux EVE cient on the same GFX as its Windows counterpart as well as optimizations to improve framerate and sound and eve voice and such.
Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE |
Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.20 21:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sevarus James Pretty cool idea, and I hope it gets off the ground. One bit of advice though. I'd wait until the Trinity 1.1 release though, as this supposedly will have the linux EVE cient on the same GFX as its Windows counterpart as well as optimizations to improve framerate and sound and eve voice and such.
Are you sure about that one? You mean like officially supported EVE Premium on Linux? ____________________________________________
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Sevarus James
Minmatar Meridian Dynamics Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.02.20 21:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Svenstaro
Originally by: Sevarus James Pretty cool idea, and I hope it gets off the ground. One bit of advice though. I'd wait until the Trinity 1.1 release though, as this supposedly will have the linux EVE cient on the same GFX as its Windows counterpart as well as optimizations to improve framerate and sound and eve voice and such.
Are you sure about that one? You mean like officially supported EVE Premium on Linux?
Key word there is "supposedly". CCP indicated that 1st quarter is release for premium gfx for mac/linux. They seem to be "hedging", as in "soon(TM)" and such, but 1st quarter is gonna be over sooner than later, and the mac forums have talked about 1.1 a bit. CCP/TG have already indicated that they HAVE the premium gfx working on internal test clients, but are addressing some "issues" prior to releasing it.
So......"supposedly" is my "hedge".
Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE |
Kadesh Priestess
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Posted - 2008.02.20 21:43:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 20/02/2008 21:46:11 I'd prefer debian-based system with wine (well, it's not so official, but it works and doesn't have gtk+ dependencies afaik - pretty nice advantage in this case).
Also, I'm used to gtk-interface, but qt will do too... any wm... everything to keep distro as small as possible (firefox with preset bookmarks is great idea btw).
EVE theming is nice, but it's a way too difficult to create hi-quality theme without some visual glitches. ------- EVE Online + GNU/Linux (ru_RU version) |
Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.20 22:22:00 -
[15]
Let's get started then shall we? :P
Well let's look at the advantages/disadvantages of each base-distribution first (as far as I'm able to judge):
Gentoo - very customizable - can be very lightweight if wanted to be very lightweight -> more resources for EVE, we don't even need syslog for a Distro whose only purpose is to play EVE and browse EVE related web pages - might be harder to set up than other Distros
Debian - quite customizable - can be quite lightweight though even the minimal system comes with some stuff pre-installed but it will be no problem to remove - if going for stable the packages will be old - medium difficulty to set up
Ubuntu - not-so-much customizable - tends to be heavier weight - packages are usually fairly recent - easy to set up and create a live CD
Fedora - not-so-much customizable - tends to be heavier weight - package ages can vary quite a bit - [havent tried setting up a Fedora based LiveCD yet because I don't like RPMs]
Personally I'd go with Gentoo, it provides the best base for customization overall imo.
Opinions? I'll start a wiki and svn/git once everybody's comfortable with a Distro. ____________________________________________
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.21 07:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Svenstaro Let's get started then shall we? :P
Well let's look at the advantages/disadvantages of each base-distribution first (as far as I'm able to judge):
Gentoo - very customizable - can be very lightweight if wanted to be very lightweight -> more resources for EVE, we don't even need syslog for a Distro whose only purpose is to play EVE and browse EVE related web pages - might be harder to set up than other Distros
Debian - quite customizable - can be quite lightweight though even the minimal system comes with some stuff pre-installed but it will be no problem to remove - if going for stable the packages will be old - medium difficulty to set up
Ubuntu - not-so-much customizable - tends to be heavier weight - packages are usually fairly recent - easy to set up and create a live CD
Fedora - not-so-much customizable - tends to be heavier weight - package ages can vary quite a bit - [havent tried setting up a Fedora based LiveCD yet because I don't like RPMs]
Personally I'd go with Gentoo, it provides the best base for customization overall imo.
Opinions? I'll start a wiki and svn/git once everybody's comfortable with a Distro.
Fedora has very good live cd tools actually prety trivial to do it but my personal vote would be Gentoo as you could make that incredibly stripped back, something like XFCE would be preferred over gnome/kde imo.
As for preserving state etc unionfs is one option but it's hard to do right and is slow, aufs is supposed to be the 'new' thing I'm not really experienced with it http://aufs.sourceforge.net/aufs.html
If people like I have a webserver I could throw a wiki or similar up, we can use that to spread ideas, save making a dozen or so forum posts, it's hosted from my house though so if someone wants to volunteer a better server be my guest..
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CCP Sputnik
C C P
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Posted - 2008.02.21 10:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Svenstaro
Originally by: CCP Sputnik Guys I support this fully, if you need help let me know.
The best way would be to use a supported distribution as base and to integrate a possibility to upgrade the EVE installation, therefor I think a DVD version is not very useful, EVE and the cedega versions have both a very short live time like we have seen with 1.0.2 . A DVD is nice for a single player game which doesn't need updates, for a game like EVE which has to have the same version like the game server this is not very practical.
Just write me here a reply if you need my help with the live linux project and I contact you.
So we have official permission by CCP to publish an EVE Distro? Just want to get it straight.
No thats no official permission, but like already mentioned this distro would just use the original client and therefore is just a unsupported (which mean CCP isnt testing it) Linux distro. __________________________ CCP Sputnik CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Software Engineer |
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Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.21 13:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: CCP Sputnik
Originally by: Svenstaro
Originally by: CCP Sputnik Guys I support this fully, if you need help let me know.
The best way would be to use a supported distribution as base and to integrate a possibility to upgrade the EVE installation, therefor I think a DVD version is not very useful, EVE and the cedega versions have both a very short live time like we have seen with 1.0.2 . A DVD is nice for a single player game which doesn't need updates, for a game like EVE which has to have the same version like the game server this is not very practical.
Just write me here a reply if you need my help with the live linux project and I contact you.
So we have official permission by CCP to publish an EVE Distro? Just want to get it straight.
No thats no official permission, but like already mentioned this distro would just use the original client and therefore is just a unsupported (which mean CCP isnt testing it) Linux distro.
But does that mean that you folks won't sue me for using your logo? :P
As for hosting: we might wanna get in touch with each other outside of the forums so we don't clutter them as already mentioned. I can host a server for all kinds of development stuff no problem, even a dedicated 100mbit one. So who ever is interested please contact me in IRC as I think that'd be best. I'll hang out on Coldfront all day. ____________________________________________
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Jameroz
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.02.21 17:36:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jameroz on 21/02/2008 17:39:42
Originally by: Sevarus James Just my 2 cents here regarding "permission". I don't believe CCP NEEDS to give or not give permission on this type of distro. My guess here is whether you get CCP "ENDORSEMENT" or not.
A distro isn't EVE, even if it primarily supports EVE. Regardless of how EVE-centric the distro would be, you cannot play EVE without paying, or at least getting a trial account first anyway. That the client is on the disc isn't an issue as its freely available for download in the first place. (As long as there is no "selling" of the distribution commercially. Of course this would violate GPL as well so again, a moot point.)
Wow you're totally wrong here. Being freely available to download doesn't give you any rights to redistribute the Eve client. The EULA actually forbids you from doing this. You need to ask written permission from CCP for that, which I'm sure they would gladly give for this product.
Also selling isn't against GPL. GPL makes the software free. Meaning after you have purchased it you can do whatever you want with it, including redistributing for any price. Perfect example of this would be the boxed Linux distros that are sold in stores.
Originally by: EULA
You may not copy (except as set forth above), distribute, rent, lease, loan, modify or create derivative works of, adapt, translate, perform, display, sublicense or transfer the Software or any documentation accompanying the Software. You may not transfer the Software, except as part of a permitted Account Transfer as described above, if permitted by the EULA then in effect. If the Software is an update, any transfer must include the update and all prior revisions.
Originally by: Sevarus James
As to the proprietary bits, to keep THAT end legal, the disc would ship with open source drivers and include very visible links or docs on HOW TO get the proprietary video drivers would sidestep that little GNU licensing issue. (Very similar to how Ubuntu does it.)
While you COULD just include the proprietary bits 'native' and be just fine in some areas of the world, you would have legal problems in other areas.
Now this I'm not so sure about, but most likely you can include the binary drivers with the distro. The end-user probably needs to accept the driver's EULA tho. I think it would be rather critical to have the binary drivers preinstalled and ready to go from the get go for this distro to be any use of.
Most Linux distros don't include them, because it ruins their free distro with full source code. This isn't really issue for the Eve distro tho.
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Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.21 19:47:00 -
[20]
I've set up an IRC Channel on irc.coldfront.net called #eve-distro. Please join in if you're interested :) ____________________________________________
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Onmarr Shan
Minmatar Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.02.21 22:06:00 -
[21]
I'm interested and I've got a VM with a decent amount of capacity, so can provide some forums and basic web stuff.
My vote would be for Gentoo with something even lighter than XFCE, say Fluxbox. Or we could try and make it look shiny by using something like Enlightenment.
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Arlash Gorkij
Minmatar Flying While Intoxicated
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Posted - 2008.02.23 12:39:00 -
[22]
Might I suggest FVWM as WM?
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jcoutepascher
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.02.28 10:09:00 -
[23]
Hi there is a nice Ubuntu based distro called Xubuntu its actualy aimed at being small commes with XFCE as a wm & IS ! compatible with ubuntu packages :)
would EVE fit on a USB stick ? how big is eve for linux once installed (with dependencies )
of corse you could just use a bash + X +EVE combination & make a Realy small distro ...
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Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.28 21:38:00 -
[24]
As far as I can see now, it will fit on a 1GB USB stick. ____________________________________________
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Lord Matrix
Department of War
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Posted - 2008.02.29 10:13:00 -
[25]
It's much easier to decide what distribution, WM and desktop environment to choose once you know what you need. I think the ability to play EVE and browse the web are all we need and therefore don't require any complex desktop environments such as XFCE, GNOME or KDE. A simple desktop with 5 icons would do it (Play EVE, Firefox, Network Setup (in case DHCP is not available), Terminal, Shutdown).
The distribution should be kept simple and straightforward.
3/4 pure lunatic, 1/4 absolute genius |
Svenstaro
Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.29 14:32:00 -
[26]
I'm currently trying to bring it up on Xfce, which yields minimal overhead and still the ability to put icons on the desktop and make it feel windowsly familiar at the same time. I figured fluxbox and other WMs might scare off users. Xfce is light enough and has all the features. I'll strip it down nicely and it should all be well. Open to suggestion anyhow. ____________________________________________
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Thoreau
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Posted - 2008.02.29 17:31:00 -
[27]
Might I suggest Slackware as another light distro. ;-)
Basically you need a "huge kernel" + additional non-kernel available drivers such as madwifi, nvidia, ati, etc...
x.org, gtk2, python, gtk2-python bindings, eve-cedega, wine, eve-windows
fluxbox (*box) is a great wm, probably best to add bbdock, and then you can have some nice buttons for eve.
Then some custom init scripts to guide a user through setting up the temp. system (i.e. x settings, gpl warnings, etc...)
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Ravow
Quebec Navy Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:57:00 -
[28]
It's good!
I have started a EVE Live DVD some time ago and I will remake it more compatible and usable for everyone!
My main release contain 0 wm, it simply start EVE after X... But it's only a fun prototype...
My final release will contain the famous huge kernel and the Nvidia/ATI drivers. It will contain the 2 client (Officiel and Premium Windows client) if form of ISO file on root of the DVD (like Cedegaeve.iso and Wineeve.iso) and it will contain only the EVE folder so for upgrade, you simply need to remake iso :)
In the bootup, You will be have the choice to run the Wrapped or Winified client and if your computer have more than 3GB of RAM, You will have the "Performance mode"! This mode will simply make a tmpfs on /mnt/EVE and copy your chosen client here. (In normal mode, the ISO of your choice will be mounted in /mnt/EVE).
PS : I think you have right to distribute liveCD with some binary drivers (like knoppix-game). You just need to say it clear in the liveDVD page.
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Otoshigo
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:39:00 -
[29]
Knew I wasn't capable of original thought...
Anyway, for a distro to base this on I would like to suggest Knoppix. Of all the distros I've played w/ nothing comes close to Knoppix for hardware detection and setup. Just my 2 ISK
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.15 02:27:00 -
[30]
Start with Jeos - add packages as needed for NVidia, ATI and Intel 3D drivers and wine plus leightweight desktop (XFCE?).
And perhaps USB stick config is more practical than a live DVD - you need space to store anyway. On startup create a sizable RAM disk - copy cache to RAMdisk - on shutdown copy to stick.
This way you just plug the stick in, boot and - voila - Eve on any 3D capable machine. - Cool Eve logo on the stick of course :-) )
CCP could even sell Eve-On-A-Stick (just charging for a 8GB USB stick or whatever is needed). :-)
just brainstorming
--- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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