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xxxak
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Posted - 2008.02.21 22:52:00 -
[1]
Right now, Caldari are almost useless in PVP, and it will only get worse if shields are nerfed more (lower explosive resists, etc as on Sisi).
Let's look at the Cerb. If you fit a reasonable tank on it, it cannot go faster than about 1500ms and hardly does as much damage as a Drake. It still tanks worse than a Sac or Ishtar.
I think the devs think that the range of caldari ships means that they will "kite" other ships. So Caldari (shield tanks) have weak/average tanks and no tackle AND are slow.
No other ships make that trade off. They can tackle and are faster and/or they have better tanks.
With Vagas and Intyies that go 10kms, "kiting" will never be an issue in real pvp.
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NoNah
Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.21 22:58:00 -
[2]
Edited by: NoNah on 21/02/2008 23:01:44 This is more than likely meant to be in the Ships and Modules forum.
And for the record - Caldari are NOT weak in pvp, in general - quite the contrary.
The Explosive/EM nerf is in fact a boost in a way for caldari. As Shields currrently own the strongest omni-resistance module in game(That can be used more than once on a setup) - the invulnerability field. As such you will get more even resistances, and have less holes or peaks.
Postcount: 186438
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xxxak
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Posted - 2008.02.21 23:04:00 -
[3]
Originally by: NoNah Edited by: NoNah on 21/02/2008 23:01:44 ... As Shields currrently own the strongest omni-resistance module in game(That can be used more than once on a setup) - the invulnerability field. As such you will get more even resistances, and have less holes or peaks.
Have you ever flown Caldari? We already use Invuln fields on almost every ship, so nothing will change, we will just have less resists.
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Back Again
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.02.21 23:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: NoNah Edited by: NoNah on 21/02/2008 23:01:44 ... As Shields currrently own the strongest omni-resistance module in game(That can be used more than once on a setup) - the invulnerability field. As such you will get more even resistances, and have less holes or peaks.
Have you ever flown Caldari? We already use Invuln fields on almost every ship, so nothing will change, we will just have less resists.
No, he don't fly caldari, he fly gallente, as I do, the only difference between us is exactly this one, I fly both. The only thing he want with this is: leave what I fly/use as it is and nerf what I don't fly/use.
No signature here, only the bright light of a ship exploding right in front of me... Ohhh, wait, I'm in a pod!! It was my ship!!! |
Nova Fox
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Posted - 2008.02.22 00:55:00 -
[5]
Caldar demand a higher level of cohesion to make them work in small gang pvps, majority of them arent great for solo pvp but on larger fleet scale warfare most caldari can easily hold the ground despite being outnumbered.
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El Mauru
Amarr Nexus Analytics Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.22 00:59:00 -
[6]
Edited by: El Mauru on 22/02/2008 01:00:26 you are oh so right- caldari totally suck at pvp- I mean the cerb with its precision missiles blows, as does the scorpion, the falcon,/rook, rokh and eagle, crow, Torp-Raven... I mean, nobody ever flies those in pvp because they suck so badly
Dude, get a clue :-P Caldari are pretty awesome in fleet/gang-PVP if you fit them properly. They have been getting better for solo-PVP as well with the recent patches- and no measly -10% explo resist on shields will change that (because according to your logic armor tankers should have huge holes in their EM resists now just waiting to be exploited)
Just be happy and check out em revamped rail cruisers :-) Badass -
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.22 01:21:00 -
[7]
I never see caldari in PvP, seriously. Until I get permajammed when they uncloak ;)
On a more serious note, Caldari don't suck in PvP in any way. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Back Again
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.02.22 04:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: El Mauru Edited by: El Mauru on 22/02/2008 01:00:26 you are oh so right- caldari totally suck at pvp- I mean the cerb with its precision missiles blows, as does the scorpion, the falcon,/rook, rokh and eagle, crow, Torp-Raven... I mean, nobody ever flies those in pvp because they suck so badly
Dude, get a clue :-P Caldari are pretty awesome in fleet/gang-PVP if you fit them properly. They have been getting better for solo-PVP as well with the recent patches- and no measly -10% explo resist on shields will change that (because according to your logic armor tankers should have huge holes in their EM resists now just waiting to be exploited)
Just be happy and check out em revamped rail cruisers :-) Badass
Haha, yeah, yeah.
Well, 38% of EVE Char are caldari, if you have some doubt, just go inform yourself here.
Sure, you can count 4 in each 10 ships in fleet battles are caldari, don't you? In my 0.0 living I just saw a few of the other races, minmatar and amarr ships (that summed are 31% of EVE population) is a rare sight in battles...
No signature here, only the bright light of a ship exploding right in front of me... Ohhh, wait, I'm in a pod!! It was my ship!!! |
Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.22 07:06:00 -
[9]
38% of people in the game are Caldari because when they signed up for the first time, the Caldari description just sounded cooler. TBH, if I'd known how Caldari fly when I signed up a number of months ago, I would have been Gallente without hesitation. Of course, I made lemons out of lemonade and I've invested a ton of SP in my ECM skills, but the fact is, Caldari just don't perform at the same level as the other races when it comes to pvp. Yes, yes, I've heard the argument "But Caldari are s'posed to be played at range! They aren't solo ships!" And to that I respond, poo. Range bonuses just aren't that useful unless you're in a 0.0 fleet battle. In small gang style pvp, it's a mad rush to close range so you can throw that scram and web on. So, in practice, you've got about a ten second window that the bonus is actually useful, and then you're a punching bag. A range bonus doesn't mean a whole lot if you're incapable of dictating the range of the engagement. As Caldari, you can either warp off when they come at you, or die. There is no running. IMO, since Caldari don't have the low slots to fit a speed tank, they should have the least mass of any of the three races, bar none.
Analagous experience that, IMO, is illustrative of the state of eve pvp: on my blackbird I've found that if I fit 3 gallente and 2 minmitar jammers, I rarely have to dock up to swap racials. You see T2 Amarr ships from time to time, but it's either Mini or Gallente in low sec. . . .
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2008.02.22 09:26:00 -
[10]
caldari are fine in pvp. I say that as someone who fly's mostly caldari in pvp when I am just as good at minmatar. range may not seem like much of a bonus but in fleets when the tempests are needing long range ammo to hit rokh's can fit higher damage ammo and still get the same range.
I'm not sure if caldari are as good at solo pvp but in fleets scorpians are one of the most valuable ships and cruise ravens are a common sight. also you own 2 of the 3 ships capable of repping pos shields (not counting capitals) and one of the best cov ops.
ccp pls do something about minmatar ew. target painters suck and mauraders can use both our racial ew |
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Beowulf Scheafer
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Posted - 2008.02.22 12:50:00 -
[11]
caldari have a very good stock of pvp-capable ships, and with the recent torpchange CCP added some more.
basically all ecmships are very well worth using it, and in fleets the rokh is a very good ship. in smaller skirmishes were you have some tacklers with you a raven and golem are top of the line for having ways a hard tank while still dishing out 1kdps+... your hic is the heaviest tank together with the broadsword, but has no optimal range on its weapons that aswell don't need cap. same goes to the fleet command ship. strong tank -> hard to kill off the bonuses for the fleets shields.
besides maybe a blasterrokh there is not much for solopvp, but that doesn't mean caldari are weak in pvp...
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.02.22 13:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm Of course, I made lemons out of lemonade and I've invested a ton of SP in my ECM skills, but the fact is, Caldari just don't perform at the same level as the other races when it comes to pvp.
Who needs a tank when you jam people? -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.22 16:10:00 -
[13]
A lot of Caldari ships are fine or will potentially be fine with the new gunboat changes in Trinity 1.1, however the whole concept of 'long range missile boats' needs to be examined. You can lob cruises at any range up to 250km, but the realistic range is much shorter than that due to flight time. When you're engaging in fleet fights (and thus shooting at long range), 30s is a long time to wait to start doing damage. Being able to engage at all ranges needs to have a downside, but it'd be nice if the balance there were looked at.
Missile precision bonuses on the Flycatcher and Nighthawk could use replacing with a more useful bonus. Neither of these ships has a problem with the signature radius of their opponents, but their missiles are pretty consistently out-run by them. It's also a bit strange that the Nighthawk can't really out-tank the Drake.
The Cerberus could use a better-defined role.
----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..." |
Minsuki
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Posted - 2008.02.22 17:40:00 -
[14]
Last caldari whine thread just went off the front page a couple days ago.
Nonetheless, caldari still need a little love if they want to fight without a gang.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.02.22 19:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Alexander Knott A lot of Caldari ships are fine or will potentially be fine with the new gunboat changes in Trinity 1.1, however the whole concept of 'long range missile boats' needs to be examined. You can lob cruises at any range up to 250km, but the realistic range is much shorter than that due to flight time. When you're engaging in fleet fights (and thus shooting at long range), 30s is a long time to wait to start doing damage. Being able to engage at all ranges needs to have a downside, but it'd be nice if the balance there were looked at.
Missile precision bonuses on the Flycatcher and Nighthawk could use replacing with a more useful bonus. Neither of these ships has a problem with the signature radius of their opponents, but their missiles are pretty consistently out-run by them. It's also a bit strange that the Nighthawk can't really out-tank the Drake.
The Cerberus could use a better-defined role.
Range is fine, but I agree with tis poster, that actually, long range missile boat is just plain comedy.
If missiles still hit if you warped, that might make 'em viable for hit and run or something, but ... -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.24 06:16:00 -
[16]
Fly Minmatar Battleships if you really want something to cry about. Outranged, outdamaged and outtanked.
I cried because I saw a man with no shoes; until I found someone with no feet.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.02.24 16:20:00 -
[17]
a jump in point at 100km. and a max lock range of 250km... wtf do you need range bonusses for ?!?!? ffs, ANY battleship can rach max locking range :S the rokh would be able to reach around 370km or so, but is capped at 250... ehhh... well where is the 1000dps cap for a ship or the 500cap for long range?!? and the tanking cap? etc.
not there? NO and it shouldn't be there.. I declare war on stupidity |
Grytok
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.02.25 16:25:00 -
[18]
So maybe don't fit long-range? Who tells you to use Cruises over Torps, or Heavy Missiles over Heavy Assault Missiles?
Range is not that unimportant, you just have to knwo how to use it.
Get a Tackler an that Cruiser and pop him with Cruises from 150km away? Train Railguns and use a Rokh with 200km optimal using 425mm II? Eagle and Harpy are the best antisupport-Railgun-platforms killing hostile Ceptors and Dictors before they can reach your own Sniper-BS.
A pure Caldari-Fleet is inferior then the others, if you only use one Race per Fleet:
- Rokhs as Sniper BS (can use more damaging Ammo, or completely stay out of the enmies range) - Eagles and Harpys as Anti-Support (killing incoming Frigates @ up to 150km) - Rooks and Falcons jamming half the enemies Fleet (ECM has 180km optimal range) - Crows (speed anyone?) and Onyx (damn heavy passive Shield tank) as Tacklers - Basilisk (Remote Shield > Remote Armor, also has CapTransfer-Boni to spider up maintaining Cap) as medics.
Nobody said, that Missiles are the only weapons Caldari should use
So if you can show me a better old school Sniping BS Fleet, only using the ships of one race, then you can come back whining about the "useless" range-advantage .
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.25 20:09:00 -
[19]
Long range turrets are fine, long range missiles are largely just lolfail because of the extremely long flight times.
CCP has largely realized this and given the Raven a powerful close range missile option. Excellent.
No smaller Caldari ship can really take similar advantage of HAM's becauase they usually lack the grid to fit and active tank, Hams, and a MWD and the speed to get there before they explode. Nighthawks grid is "this is obviously a bug" low.
The cerberus isn't a bad ship, but just not as cool as the gallente HAC's or sacrilege.
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Grytok
moon7empler Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.02.25 22:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ulstan Long range turrets are fine, long range missiles are largely just lolfail because of the extremely long flight times.
CCP has largely realized this and given the Raven a powerful close range missile option. Excellent.
No smaller Caldari ship can really take similar advantage of HAM's becauase they usually lack the grid to fit and active tank, Hams, and a MWD and the speed to get there before they explode. Nighthawks grid is "this is obviously a bug" low.
The cerberus isn't a bad ship, but just not as cool as the gallente HAC's or sacrilege.
Don't compare ships directly to each other. This is were you fail. Every ship has a role in which it is better then the other races.
EvE is designed around Fleet-Warfare not for Solo-PvP. You whine less, if you actually realize that.
And if you wan't, sure compare the Nighthawk against an Astarte 1vs1 on Sisi. Nighthawk will pwn the Astarte! Same goes for the Absolution and Sleipnir. If you can't, then you might be doin something wrong.
Cruise-Ravens are perfectly fine for PvE, for PvP fit Torps. Cerberus can fit HAMs + MWD + Tank. No problem there (-> Rigs anyone?). It can make Vagabonds running and cry, also it's very useful with Assault Launchers as Anti-Support.
Only Long-Range Missiles there is are Cruises and Heavy Missiles. Cruises are fine for Stealthbombers and PvE, Heavy Missiles are fine if you fly your ship as it's supposed to. MWD alittle bit out of Range and deal damage, while others won't hurt you. .
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.02.25 22:27:00 -
[21]
Nerf ECM, passive shield tanks and pve ability of caldari and we can start talking about pvp boosts. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.02.26 12:15:00 -
[22]
problem is that range are capped at 250km nothing else is, which makes the caldari advantage useless compared to other races.
imagine if speed was capped at 5 km/s . or dps at 700 dps. as max. and tank at 500 repair per sec.
wouldn't this be REALLY stupid?. so why do you cap range at around 2/3 of what you can get in some ships, leaving every one to be able to hit the cap thereby get the max, and thereby removing the advantage of the caldari race range bonus. I declare war on stupidity |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.26 21:17:00 -
[23]
When using long range ammo, range is damage. Downfit to faction ammo and watch as you do similar dps to a Megathron with 3 times the tracking and more EHP.
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.26 21:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Nerf ECM, passive shield tanks and pve ability of caldari and we can start talking about pvp boosts.
Why would anyone want to talk to you about anything?
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.02.26 22:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Nerf ECM, passive shield tanks and pve ability of caldari and we can start talking about pvp boosts.
Why would anyone want to talk to you about anything?
Because Im sexy?
-------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.26 22:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Nerf ECM, passive shield tanks and pve ability of caldari and we can start talking about pvp boosts.
Why would anyone want to talk to you about anything?
Because Im sexy?
You sultry minx, stop falling in love with me.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.02.26 22:46:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Nerf ECM, passive shield tanks and pve ability of caldari and we can start talking about pvp boosts.
Since when is PvE ability any basis for PvP balance? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.02.26 22:59:00 -
[28]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Nerf ECM, passive shield tanks and pve ability of caldari and we can start talking about pvp boosts.
Since when is PvE ability any basis for PvP balance?
-Caldari have no problems in group pvp.
-I have no problems with boosting caldari solo pvp capabilities aslong as the other races get their pve ability boosted to get inline with drakes and ravens. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.26 22:59:00 -
[29]
Grytok, you quoted my post, but then proceeded to act as though addressing someone who more or less said the opposite of what I did, so I can only assume you misquoted or badly misread my post. You're talking up the virtues of the Torp Raven and Cerberus, both of which I said were great.
Then you say not to compare ships 1 on 1, which I didn't, not because it's a bad idea, but because it wasn't the point of my post.
The primary point of my post was (a) too high fitting costs of HAM's in general (b) extremely low powergrid of Nighthawk in particular.
I mean, let's look.
Drake: 850 Claymore: 1390 Astarte: 1450 Absolution: 1575 Nightwhawk: 710
Not only is it massively lower than every other command ship, exceeding by several orders of magnitude the typical caldari decrease in PG from the other races vessesl of the same class, the nighthawk actually has a lower PG than it's T1 version! This is such a massive WTF I can only assume it's a bug :p
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.02.26 23:00:00 -
[30]
HAMS need lower fitting and a tad more damage. Rockets need a dmg boost aswell. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
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