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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.03 00:25:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I can sympathize with everything you posted, Mal, but figured I would comment about this one also:
Originally by: Malcanis Nothing in Empire comes remotely close to the fun and excitement of finding a corp & alliance with people you really like and building, working and especially fighting alongside them. Nothing in any game I have ever played, come to that.
Most of the "better" Empire-based corps and alliances are much the same: We build, we progress, we help our members (many are newbies) grow, we run fairly devent-sized mining and lowsec operations, fight periodic wars, run POSs for invention both for corp and personal fun, etc. About the only difference is we aren't defending any particular territory.
Eve, more than most MMOs, is really about the multi-player aspect whether you are in Empire, Lowsec or 0.0. I agree 100% with the sentiments that if you aren't in a good group you are definately missing out. But I'm not questioning people WHY they aren't in a good group or accusing them of not playing right like the OP and many others Their choise, their game-play.
Empire is just too crowded for my liking. Also i guess I really like the feeling of "this is our space".
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.03 00:30:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Trovax
Originally by: Sarakiel Edited by: Sarakiel on 02/03/2008 16:34:24 You can find what I initially wrote quoted somewhere if you really care. The fact is this thread is over. I got my answer.
The vast majority of EvE players that responded to this have no clue what they're talking about. They havent done their research. They havent even tried to legitimately experience 0.0. They havent talked to anyone whose given them an accurate opinion of 0.0. They havent crunched the numbers on the money they make in empire space. They havent crunched the numbers in light of being able to make more money in fully insureable ships in 0.0. They have no understanding of how little you have to commit to be a part of a 0.0 alliance if you want to (the fact is once you out here you want to do more).
To be fair I've seen a few posters who have given reasonable arguments along the lines of (with a few words added to spice it up but not changing the principle :D)
-I've played in 0.0 for a solid amount of time. I'm tired. I only want to play 4 hours a week and skill and I feel like I'm a burden on the alliance even if they dont care im only playing 4 hours a week. -I find empire mining to be relaxing, and its my way of getting away at the end of the day and just chilling with friends. I will never want to be a part of pvp action nor would i want to be a part of anything purposeful. Games dont need a purpose for me. I dont understand you, but I can respect you. -I find controlled pvp to be where I have the most fun. Essentially EvE is like WoW battlegrounds for me, controlled and won for bragging rights. I can respect that, I disagree, but I can argue all day and i'll never change your opinion regardless of what facts I bring to the table.
My issue is with the willfully ignorant, who choose less without understanding their choice. The opportunity has been made available to you to actually understand this game. EFT is there. EvEmon is there. You can talk to alliance members of over 40 0.0 alliances get their takes on 0.0 space. You can learn everything you need to know to make a well-informed decision without even ever going there yet you choose to remain in ignorance and have the audacity to defend your ignorance with misinformation and imagination.
I imagined about the future EvE, I research its current state. You have no idea what your doing when your online cause you cant even quote accurate numbers in how much you can actually make missioning even if you were in a faction ship and mining veldspar to kernite (my responses are littered throughout why their numbers are sometimes dramatically out of proportion)
The fact is to CCP your vote counts as much as one of my accounts' vote, and if your someone whose expressing your opinion without even analysing to create a reasonably accurate foundation for your opinion why is your's worth anything at all? $15? Your vote shouldnt count for the same reason a child cant vote in elections.
Heres one for ya.....
I'd LOVE to goto 0.0, if it wasnt for the continual frackin gate camps who popped me everytime i tried to go out ther. i know tis better than empire. i know its more profitable, i know its alot more fun. IF ONLY i could just get past the gate camps. Maybe thats why people dont want to go there. COS they are tired of trying to get there.
Go through CVA space: they have NRDS and they're serious about it. I'm not saying you're guaranteed safety, but at least you won't be instantly attacked by the sov holders.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Gravecall
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Posted - 2008.03.03 08:47:00 -
[243]
Planning to move some kit down to 0.0, sometime in the not too distant future, so I can spend a day or two there each week via jump clones but to be honest I think high sec will remain my primary home for a long time to come since that's where my isk comes from and I'll need to keep earning isk to fund my expected regular ship loses in 0.0
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.03 10:35:00 -
[244]
Also something I didn't point out before. You can (and I do this every now and then) hop into an assault frigate, get a couple of alts to check the local choke points - and fly down to one of the many empty 0.0 systems around Eve to do some ratting. Sure they won't be the best systems (low sec level) and you probably won't be able to loot very much (unless you pimp a Viator or something and take that with you on another char - keeping only good named loot - faction drops would be rare in these systems), but it's a fun thing to do when you get bored of level 4's. If you do it in a retribution (or similar), you won't have to carry ammo and you can stay there as long as you like - and the best part is you don't have to bend over to some greasy/spotty alliance head in order to do so. Just SS and log if you are challenged in local ;).
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Charles Kuralt
Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.03 10:56:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Cipher7 Edited by: Cipher7 on 01/03/2008 21:21:23 I would actually like to hang out in Providence except I would be forced to fight my Matari brothers in Ushra'Khan.
Either that or CVA would prolly shoot me for my corp history.
Back when UK owned 9uy, I hung out there as a neutral it was cool.
Truth is UK was the only alliance I ever gave a crap about and they don't want me, so I have nowhere to live at the moment except hisec.
I lived out of ISS Fabrica for a while, back when ISS allowed neutrals to live there, but they're gone now.
If there was a NRDS zone available to me I would prolly live there at least part-time. Heck I would even help out in defense.
Please quit listening to the utter nonsense spouted by our opponents. We don't force anybody to fight anybody. Don't pirate. Don't be a jerk. And if you wanted to peacefully operate in Provi, even with your corp history, just convo a diplomat and make your intentions known. The only reason we would ever recommend you set your standings against your old friends is because they sure as hell will shoot you, history or no, and we don't like seeing peaceful residents getting ganked.
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Tuberider
Caldari Pothouse Cartel
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Posted - 2008.03.03 11:20:00 -
[246]
'I find empire mining to be relaxing'
^^ i stopped reading when i read that
ваша мать будет hampster и вашими запахами отца elderberries
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Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.03.03 11:33:00 -
[247]
I'm quite happy sitting in Jita 44 contributing to the lag. I don't even undock :D
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.03 11:34:00 -
[248]
Quote: ... get a couple of alts to check the local choke points
Meta-gaming tactics should not be required for doing something as simple as flying around.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2008.03.03 11:42:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Stern Maxwell Well as far as I see it, being an Empire space guy that tried 0.0 once, these are your options.
1. Join an established 0.0 Corp in an Alliance. 2. Go to 0.0 that doesn't belong to you and get shot by the owner, and have nowhere to store your stuff. 3. Make an attempt to take 0.0 with an Empire Alliance, and get pushed back to Empire the first week. (happened with my last alliance/corp, good guys, we couldn't stand up to a huge Alliance)
Basically this. Many players want to stay independent. Some just prefer to play solo (even in a MMO environment). Other players don't have the time to organize or run a group that's strong enough to take some of 0.0. A couple of these end up as low sec pirates.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Brainless Bimbo
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Posted - 2008.03.03 11:53:00 -
[250]
Quote: Alright carebears why aren't you in 0.0? I want to know
If you have to ask you are not very bright, you sound like an americian asking "why do they hate us?" and let me give you a hint, its not for your freedoms (sic..)
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:01:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Quote: ... get a couple of alts to check the local choke points
Meta-gaming tactics should not be required for doing something as simple as flying around.
Indeed, but unless you want to get capped every time you try (and most normal people will try precisely once in these circumstances), you have to meta-game. The solution would be to allow people to scan the other side of a gate.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:12:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 03/03/2008 12:12:10
Originally by: Burnharder Indeed, but unless you want to get capped every time you try (and most normal people will try precisely once in these circumstances), you have to meta-game. The solution would be to allow people to scan the other side of a gate.
I prefer the get rid of the gates option myself, my sig will speak to that. plug, shameless, obligitory.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:14:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Quote: ... get a couple of alts to check the local choke points
Meta-gaming tactics should not be required for doing something as simple as flying around.
Get your corpmate/friend to scout for you.
Can't do that either? Then you're gonna die, its that simple. MMOs require interaction to accomplish a lot of the content, just like how in FPSes you need guns.
Playing without a corp/friends is like playing counterstrike with only your knife. Doable? Sure. Is it gonna get you far? No.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:20:00 -
[254]
Edited by: Burnharder on 03/03/2008 12:20:36
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Quote: ... get a couple of alts to check the local choke points
Meta-gaming tactics should not be required for doing something as simple as flying around.
Get your corpmate/friend to scout for you.
Can't do that either? Then you're gonna die, its that simple. MMOs require interaction to accomplish a lot of the content, just like how in FPSes you need guns.
Playing without a corp/friends is like playing counterstrike with only your knife. Doable? Sure. Is it gonna get you far? No.
What kind of friends do you have that you'd make him go and do that (ie. basically die if there is a camp there) and/or go and do it for you at your whim, any time of day or night? That isn't a friend, it's a *itch. The best solution is to have an alt permanently in system with bookmarks for scan points at either gate, then nobody has to die apart from your lazy alt.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:23:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 03/03/2008 12:12:10
Originally by: Burnharder Indeed, but unless you want to get capped every time you try (and most normal people will try precisely once in these circumstances), you have to meta-game. The solution would be to allow people to scan the other side of a gate.
I prefer the get rid of the gates option myself, my sig will speak to that. plug, shameless, obligitory.
I agree absolutely. Space games like Eve and X2/3 don't give you the sense of freedom you expect from "space" precisely because of gates.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:25:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Burnharder Edited by: Burnharder on 03/03/2008 12:20:36
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Quote: ... get a couple of alts to check the local choke points
Meta-gaming tactics should not be required for doing something as simple as flying around.
Get your corpmate/friend to scout for you.
Can't do that either? Then you're gonna die, its that simple. MMOs require interaction to accomplish a lot of the content, just like how in FPSes you need guns.
Playing without a corp/friends is like playing counterstrike with only your knife. Doable? Sure. Is it gonna get you far? No.
What kind of friends do you have that you'd make him go and do that (ie. basically die if there is a camp there) and/or go and do it for you at your whim, any time of day or night? That isn't a friend, it's a *itch. The best solution is to have an alt permanently in system with bookmarks for scan points at either gate, then nobody has to die apart from your lazy alt.
Who says the scout has to die? A properly fitted t1 frigate won't die to a bubble camp, even with multiple huginns.
In addition, who says any time of the day? If for some reason you only have one person who can scout for you, then you wait till he can help you before you move your stuff.
Whining about not being able to get far in eve without a corp is like whining you cant kill people in counterstrike with no guns.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:42:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Arctur Ceti Topic: "Alright carebears why aren't you in 0.0? I want to know"
Answer: Absolutely. But, the better question is do you want me there for anything other than just an epeen enhancer to your board?
There are plenty of carebears in 0.0. Ask any 0.0 player and he will tell you.
The difference between the 0.0 carebear and the carebear whoring L4s in highsec is the one in 0.0 made friends/joined a corp in a MMO, and he is willing to accept the fact that he will lose ships every now and then.
The one in empire obsesses over every loss and the mere thought of dying paralyzes him into inaction.
There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, but this is generally how it is.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:46:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Nasta443
Originally by: Gamesguy
Gates are the only way to get fights. They are chokepoints in space and there's a pretty damn good reason for them.
No. Gates are a way to get ganks not fights. Ganks that bring nothing to the game for the ganked at all beyond. It gives them no chance of doing anything at all other than dying unless they have someone to check the other side of the gate. Lots of jokes about HP buffs due to devs getting annoyed at being headshoted in fleet but apparently it is fine if it happens in a gate.
Not that numeric superiority and firepower shouldn't mean a lot but jumping around should be something else than rolling a dice. There's no game there.
How do you propose to secure a system without gates?
Say an alliance is deploying an egg, how do you propose they secure that system without utilizing gatecamps?
As for checking the otherside of the gate, you can do that yourself if you're in a fast ship/recon.
No, what you don't like isn't some crap about game balance, what you don't like is dying even though you were lazy and stupid and didn't bother to get someone to scout ahead for you.
Eve is a game about war is it not? Armies deploy scouts in every direction for a reason, armies that fail to do so are typically ambushed and slaughtered. This is what happens in eve too. Information is one of the most important aspects of warfare, even in a video game.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:48:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Me Originally by: Gamesguy
I will have to respectfully disagree. There are other options.
Like what? Name one that doesn't involve fights over soverignty/pilot error.
There isn't, (unless you count belts, missions and anomalies) because Eve's space navigation and exploration mechanics are simplistic - That's the issue. Gates were the easy solution to creating non-consensual PVP. I don't mean to imply CCP are lazy or stupid by any means, let me make that very clear.
Gates are simplistic, they exist for no other reason to force people into the same place, it doesn't have to be that way. The options, of which I speak, are other mechanics that could be used to induce non-consensual PVP, instead of gates.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:49:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Burnharder on 03/03/2008 12:49:36
Originally by: Gamesguy
Where are you trying to get through thats camped for hours on end? I rountinely get through ec-p8r, supposedly the most dangerous system in eve(according to eon magazine anyways), with little wait.
I haven't done it for about a year to be honest (I was away for a long time). I used to live up there before then though, actually EC was probably one of the easier systems to get through, until the Bob + ASCN blob arrived.
Quote:
If you can't be assed to join a corp and get some friends, then you simply won't have access to eve's end game content. This is exactly how every single MMO is. In wow you cant do raids unless you have what? 30 or 60 people?
Well that isn't the point, we aren't talking about doing a raid, we're just talking about getting from one place to another. But I think you are proving my point to an extent, because it's clear that you have to join an alliance, you have to work as a team with other players, you have to wait...and wait... and maybe take some losses and when you get there.... well, you have to do what the alliance tell you to, behave how they want you to behave, pay your fees, etc. It is a giant pain in the buttie. Now my post above was more about going to 0.0 for a little ratting if you want - as a loner, without alliance or corp support. You can do it. I wasn't suggesting this would work if you wanted to live down there, mine, run a POS, etc. For that you really do need support (I tried it as a loner and it wasn't profitable).
And also.. even when I was with a big corp/alliance, finding someone willing to help you out for a simple little thing like getting past a camp was hard. It's the kind of thing corps do for newer players. For veterans, they expect you'll know how to use meta gaming. The most frequent help you get is someone else firing up their meta-gaming alt and telling you whether or not it's safe.
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Nasta443
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:50:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Cipher7
No actually "average 0.0 guy" is ****ed because I don't take orders from his hadolescent alliance leader. He's also ****ed because I'm not taking it in the rear like he is.
I don't take orders from college students and HVAC repairmen, and I have no interest in leading a mob of low IQ mouth breathers.
I suspect there's a whole bunch of HVAC repairmen that are far better person than you are. And those college students have probably better grammar and typing skills than you do. At least some of them.
Your attitude at life is deplorable. Some introspection would do you good.
Anyway back to the lulz. I bet you are in bob and you call people peons and plebs too
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:54:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Burnharder on 03/03/2008 12:54:17
Originally by: Gamesguy
How do you propose to secure a system without gates?
Okay, this is a mistake often made by people when changes are suggested. You shouldn't simply replace gate with warp module and see what happens to balance. You should first imagine space without gates and then think about ways and means of making it secure. If there are none (at first there aren't, obviously), then think some up. How about radar arrays, so you can see incoming and outgoing traffic on your system map - a bit like Frontier, remember that? ;). Then you can police your systems easily.
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:54:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Gamesguy
The difference between the 0.0 carebear and the carebear whoring L4s in highsec is the one in 0.0 made friends/joined a corp in a MMO, and he is willing to accept the fact that he will lose ships every now and then.
The one in empire obsesses over every loss and the mere thought of dying paralyzes him into inaction.
There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, but this is generally how it is.
True.
But missions are still more fun than ratting.
They really should up the spawn rate, it's ridiculous to have 10 people in the belts competing for spawn and get into arguments over who saw the 1.8 triple first.
These are not isk farmers, they're just people who are trying to pay for their next fleet boat.
Theres nothing wrong with highsec risk/reward.
The only benefit of highsec is that the rats are SPAWNED for you, as opposed to undocking in a system with 50+ people, and try to find something to kill in the belts.
The times I logged in at 4am to rat, and had the belts to myself, the money was VERY nice, 25-30m an hour. 3 hours of that, and I just paid for my next Tempest.
At prime time, it's like a busload of immigrants trying to get a visa, people yelling "NO GET OFF MY SPAWN!" in local, and you're lucky to make 5-10 mil on the crappy BC rats.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:57:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Gamesguy
How do you propose to secure a system without gates?
Short answer, defend it, long answer (very long answer), click my sig.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Nasta443
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Posted - 2008.03.03 12:59:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Gamesguy
How do you propose to secure a system without gates?
Say an alliance is deploying an egg, how do you propose they secure that system without utilizing gatecamps?
As Adunh posted a bit above, check these posts. Armies do deploy scouts and a good number of intelligence gathering is done through UAVs. Not by sending a guy in nike sneakers
It's time ccp starts thinking about a design update to the game beyond ship stat tweaking.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc. Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.03 13:21:00 -
[266]
Behold, the wonder of 0.0:
90% empty. 4% cloaking farmer Ravens. 3% blob. 3% nano-blob. 100% terrible.
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Sarakiel
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Posted - 2008.03.03 17:09:00 -
[267]
Burnharder the gate system is already the best means or close to best means to make securing 0.0 space feasible. No system I've seen suggested can even compare.
Gates are what allow you to tactically control dozens of systems with fewer people and this is necessary because theres so few people in 0.0 as it is. If you could in any way warp in to a system in a non-cap ship. Thats it. You cloak and its over, no ones finding you. How do they stop you from getting to the next system? They dont. Even if you had a 100 man security force roaming through 6 systems 24 hours a day theres no way they could secure it.
Gamesguy said it best. There are plenty of carebears in 0.0. They just rationally have realised the cost of losing a ship every so often is miniscule compared to the rewards gained and the richness of the game experience overall. Empire carebears are crippled by fear or ignorance.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.03.03 17:34:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Sarakiel Burnharder the gate system is already the best means or close to best means to make securing 0.0 space feasible. No system I've seen suggested can even compare.
You asked why people weren't in 0.0, they responded with comments such as "Gate camps and such make it too hard to get into and move around for a casual player". And a few advocate removal of the gate system. Your response is it is the only way for a small group to control a lot of territory? "Controlling" that territory is exactly the reason some of these posters are NOT in 0.0
Then the smack-talking and name calling that resulted, mainly from teh 0.0 crowd, hardly entices any of the rest of us to join you. Even yourself have the opinion that we are stupid, while you are not able to identify that it is YOUR actions which are keeping us from desiring to be there. There are some exceptions in this thread, like Mal, but all the "pro" 0.0ers here have simply confirmed most of our opinions of those that live there and solidified why we aren't.
Give it up, if we wanted to be in 0.0 we would be so. There is no "why" that will satisfy you, same as no arguement you can bring forward will entice us. Most of those "facts" are personal views on what is fun to us, the rest are personal experiences (including the attitudes and smack in this thread).
Have fun in 0.0, I'll have fun with my corp-mates and friends here.....
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Adamai
Gallente Naval Protection Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.03 17:39:00 -
[269]
Edited by: Adamai on 03/03/2008 17:40:31 guys think of the amount of resources it would take to remove all gates and have one persistant galaxy
at the moment each system is a cluster and transistion is done by using warp gates a warp gate briges the gap between clusters removing the unwanted laod screens of system change, instead we get a little pause and wam we are here new system.
now if they did have one continuos galaxye with no gates that means one gigantic cluster which im a fraid to say with 35k clients all logged in at once would generate considerable lag.
ccp use gates for a reason, all you have to do is imagine a 200+ ship fleet battle in one system and count how long it is before your screen un freezes, now all you do is time this by a kazillion and you have the out come of no system gates in eve.
unless it works on some kind of render rolling system where as you fly it genrates the space as you go which is how infinity the qeust for earth is supposed to work then it may be theasable
:s sounds pretty awfull to me.
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Adamai
Gallente Naval Protection Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.03 17:41:00 -
[270]
also wouldnt that be like restructuring eve completely ccp would never answer all those noobish petitions :)
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