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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:24:00 -
[61]
Lots of ideas in this thread; if you have any more to add, please post them there and I'll update the list. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Terazuk
Amarr Rogen's Heroes
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:52:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Terazuk on 10/03/2008 22:53:09 I'm liking the idea of a mini command ship... but obviously due to their smaller size I believe what they can effect should also be diminished.
Firstly, Assault frigates, this is a name that calls to mind a hard hitting durable craft in the thick of combat. I was also led to believe that the Assault Frigs Natural partner was the Battleship, a support ship dedicated to aggressively protecting them in combat.
The first way I was thinking on this is in this: Rather than a command ship exactly, the Assault frigate should act as a front-line 'node'. Their abilities, rather than bringing new and possibly game breaking 'features', should instead act as a focus for a command ships gang assist modules effect.
The way I would propose this to work would be to have the Assault ship use a module that acts as an extension of any active gang assist modules (perhaps utilizing the command processor). This would in effect raise the fleet booster bonuses within these ships loci.
I'm unsure as to what extent it should do so by but I feel this might be an interesting direction.
Alternatively or (dare I dream) additionally, the assault ships could be the only ship class capable of using their ship scanner, that up until now are only able to scan for anomalies, be capable of scanning for ships and/or acting as probes for any astrometrics craft in gang or for that matter any ship in gang?
Although bear in mind I haven't thought either of these ideas out to any degree, as this spills from my fingertips in response to this thread.
Anyhow... I'm liking it so far.
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Dhaikin Lharoud
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.03.11 00:44:00 -
[63]
Someone stated earlier the real problem with this ship : cost vs usefulness
If the cost of the AF class ship was 1/2 (or a little less) than what it is now, younger players could afford to fly them.
This will make them a "disposable" T2 ship for the people with more wealth, and affordable for the isk-challenged.
Get a 4 week old char in some T2 bling that he can afford to lose, and you will have a happy person.
Trying to make a 0.0 / fleet battle "role" for every ship class in the game isn't realistic, and with the interceptor already taking the tackler class, we seem to be trying to find a home for the AF, and we can't.
Some other small adjustments might be necessary, as a T2 ship deserves T2 fittings, and AFs seem to have problems with that, I know I have cpu problems with my hawks.
Frigs would lose a lot of pilots, as they will move to AFs, but they can't till they get the skills, so frigs wont disappear.
I see the lower cost AFs used mainly in low sec or high sec.
DL
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Kiril Suloev
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Posted - 2008.03.11 05:45:00 -
[64]
Read most of the replies here and they look good... but lets think for a minute...
Assault ships are supposed to... assault...
Make a specialized Module that ONLY Assault Frigs can fit. Give them either a ROF module or Damage Module...
Make these modules very cap intensive. What happens is depending on the module, they would give ships insanely fast Fire Rate or insanely high damage ouput. So for a hawk lets say you shoot one missile every 3 sec. Make it every .2 sec. Basically make Missile Launchers and Guns/Turrets into Gattling Cannons that shoot super fast. But since theyre so cap intensive, they wont be able to tank much.
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N1fty
Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.03.11 06:53:00 -
[65]
Edited by: N1fty on 11/03/2008 06:53:11
Web resistance instead of immunity is a good idea. Or..
Give them an afterburner velocity bonus?
It's an idea to bring their speed up without ballooning their signature. They can still do some speed inside web range without the signature radius/ cap issues, thus avoiding battleship weaponry [and neuts to some small extent] but light drones launched by battleships will still cause problems.
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I usually close my eyes and just beg, out loud added with a lot of squealing.
I swear it helps.
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Hitme Harder
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2008.03.11 07:17:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Odet
Originally by: Sokratesz Web immunity is all they need.
There has been talk of that all over, but honestly woudl you fly an assault frig purely because it has web immunity? I mean it would be a nice added feature for them. However I don't it would necisarilly fix the assault frig as it needs a real purpose. You want a better tackler? get an interdictor.
It really is all they need though. In pvp everything has a webber. Thats what makes frigates so easy to kill. If you attack a BS in a rifter, you get webbed and droned down.
With web immunity an AF can get all up in a larger ship's grill and not have their speed + high resists advantages deminished.
Also this is gonna be a fantastic counter to nano-ships. Two birds with one stone.
AREN'T THEY ADORABLE? |
Odet
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 08:51:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hitme Harder
Originally by: Odet
Originally by: Sokratesz Web immunity is all they need.
There has been talk of that all over, but honestly woudl you fly an assault frig purely because it has web immunity? I mean it would be a nice added feature for them. However I don't it would necisarilly fix the assault frig as it needs a real purpose. You want a better tackler? get an interdictor.
It really is all they need though. In pvp everything has a webber. Thats what makes frigates so easy to kill. If you attack a BS in a rifter, you get webbed and droned down.
With web immunity an AF can get all up in a larger ship's grill and not have their speed + high resists advantages deminished.
Also this is gonna be a fantastic counter to nano-ships. Two birds with one stone.
It would be if the AFs werent so slow
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry |
Odet
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 08:59:00 -
[68]
Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 11/03/2008 06:53:11
Web resistance instead of immunity is a good idea. Or..
Give them an afterburner velocity bonus?
It's an idea to bring their speed up without ballooning their signature. They can still do some speed inside web range without the signature radius/ cap issues, thus avoiding battleship weaponry [and neuts to some small extent] but light drones launched by battleships will still cause problems.
That would be apotentially a good idea, giving them a large AB Bonus, it would maintain their capacitor and their low sig radius but keep their speed.
It would definately be a start. A bit more would have to be added in combination with that. As that alone would be insufficient.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry |
Odet
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 09:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Dhaikin Lharoud Someone stated earlier the real problem with this ship : cost vs usefulness
If the cost of the AF class ship was 1/2 (or a little less) than what it is now, younger players could afford to fly them.
This will make them a "disposable" T2 ship for the people with more wealth, and affordable for the isk-challenged.
Get a 4 week old char in some T2 bling that he can afford to lose, and you will have a happy person.
Trying to make a 0.0 / fleet battle "role" for every ship class in the game isn't realistic, and with the interceptor already taking the tackler class, we seem to be trying to find a home for the AF, and we can't.
Some other small adjustments might be necessary, as a T2 ship deserves T2 fittings, and AFs seem to have problems with that, I know I have cpu problems with my hawks.
Frigs would lose a lot of pilots, as they will move to AFs, but they can't till they get the skills, so frigs wont disappear.
I see the lower cost AFs used mainly in low sec or high sec.
DL
It still would'nt change the fact that they are usless.
Wether something costs 6m or 1m. If it's usless people won't fly it.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry |
Odet
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 09:03:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Kiril Suloev Read most of the replies here and they look good... but lets think for a minute...
Assault ships are supposed to... assault...
Make a specialized Module that ONLY Assault Frigs can fit. Give them either a ROF module or Damage Module...
Make these modules very cap intensive. What happens is depending on the module, they would give ships insanely fast Fire Rate or insanely high damage ouput. So for a hawk lets say you shoot one missile every 3 sec. Make it every .2 sec. Basically make Missile Launchers and Guns/Turrets into Gattling Cannons that shoot super fast. But since theyre so cap intensive, they wont be able to tank much.
I don't like that idea, but it's not up to me. It's an idea so it's quite valid. But giving th AFs something to sty true to theri name would be nice.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry |
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Odet
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 09:09:00 -
[71]
What if they were given this combination of changes:
1 Ships per race becomes the mini command ship 1 Ship per race becomes the killer (Added ro/tracking wahtevr)
On top of that give them the AB bonus of lets says the same effectivnes of a mwd without the penalties. An perhaps in crease their agility slightly.
It would give one of them the role of a mini command pack leader, that can actually keep up with his pack. And would be a great ships to have in any small ship pack.
It would give the other the killer role (hold more true to the Assault portion of the name) A killer role with added tracking/rof and ab bonus.
Maybe even throw web immunity in there. Thoughts?
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry |
Emah Spina
Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2008.03.11 09:24:00 -
[72]
I would love to see AF's as a mini command ship. With special gang mods, that only affects ships up to Cruiser classes.
Make them perfect pack-leaders for small roaming gangs
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Cogswin Iannyen
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Posted - 2008.03.11 13:16:00 -
[73]
I think that AF's having bonuses that allow them to mount and use cruiser class weapons would go a long way in helpng them fit back in. Right now its not economical to fit a t2 frigate, other than a stealth bomber or interceptor. Ceptors are dirty fast, obviously. The only other t2 frig worth a damn across the board is the SB, and thats because it can mount battleship class launchers.
AF's with either 250mm rails, or dual 150mm rails ,or heavy and heavy assault lauchers (or even assault launchers) would give them a teir boost over their tech 1 variants, while still keeping them apart from cruisers. Not necessarily *better* than cruisers, but certainly different (smaller sig, faster locks and warps, with a slightly restricted firepower, as the frigate platforms tend to have fewer slots than cruisers, thus sacrificing a gun here or a launcher there...)
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Orakkus
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:55:00 -
[74]
How about we give the AFs a purpose as an "Anti-Stealth" Platform?
Maybe have it so that they get an initial 5km range to locate stealth ships, and with each level of Assault Frigate skill, add 5km distance.
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Kiril Suloev
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Posted - 2008.03.11 19:09:00 -
[75]
Or.... If you guys want to go the command ship route...
Make them SQUAD LEADING or WING LEADING ships that give bonuses to that wing as opposed to a whole fleet. And make them worthwhile bonuses, like RoF, or RoT or something like that... Only for that squad.
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ragewind
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.11 19:44:00 -
[76]
ill add my 2p
i DONT like the mini command ship idea at all and here is why:
skill training time gang skills actually take quite some time to train up to be fully affective, frigs are ships that encourage newer players. these need to have an niche role and easy to uses quick choice ship.
the bonuses can be easily countered if a quick light ships gang ends up getting spread across systems with the current gang mechanics and the fleets needing complete higher arkey.
what id like to see if the assault ships have the assault added to them.
give them cruiser sized weapons similar bonuses as they have now just with the larger weapons. no great tracking or precision bonuses these would be designed the newer player fight over there wight. web resistance can still be added allowing them to get in on there target but they need balancing so they cant be super speedy the lack of speed and tracking/precision will stop them being frig rapers.
main point keep it simple they need to be a fun ship to jump in and encourage new player to continue with the game
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.03.11 20:58:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Cogswin Iannyen I think that AF's having bonuses that allow them to mount and use cruiser class weapons would go a long way in helpng them fit back in. Right now its not economical to fit a t2 frigate, other than a stealth bomber or interceptor. Ceptors are dirty fast, obviously. The only other t2 frig worth a damn across the board is the SB, and thats because it can mount battleship class launchers.
AF's with either 250mm rails, or dual 150mm rails ,or heavy and heavy assault lauchers (or even assault launchers) would give them a teir boost over their tech 1 variants, while still keeping them apart from cruisers. Not necessarily *better* than cruisers, but certainly different (smaller sig, faster locks and warps, with a slightly restricted firepower, as the frigate platforms tend to have fewer slots than cruisers, thus sacrificing a gun here or a launcher there...)
This is almost exactly what I was thinking while I read this thread.
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Akiba Penrose
Minmatar PAK
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Posted - 2008.05.07 20:04:00 -
[78]
I really like the mini command idea and think its the best thing since sliced bread.
Here's how I would like to see it:
Assult frigates should have a AB and web bonus. It should be balanced so that they are able to keep a little transversal against a webbed cruiser that is webbing them back and burning the mwd. Anything lower then that is useless imo. That is currently one of the major problems of a AF atm; it has to operate within web range with its mwd activated to keep transversal and close range.
AF Gang modules; * The gang modules should be a new line of modules, specially for AF's. * Each AF can fit 1 gang module. * The modules should boost only 1 attribute. * The modules should not have any racial preferences. * They should give bonuses from 5-15%, depending on what attribute they boost, and only affect other frigate gang members on the same grid. * Several gang modules boosting the same attribute should stack but also have a stacking penalty.
I think those gang modules should be given new skills that takes less time to train then the current skills (lower skill requirements and rank). So they are more newb friendly,, and because the current leadership skills takes a long time to max out. I don't think that the increased training time for flying a fully specced AF will have a negative affect on new players. A new player can join a AF gang and have his T1 frigate boosted by several AF's and by that be more useful then he would in a mixed gang imo.
This might not be the best solution but its probably the most fun one as i see it. It will give the frigate-gang some much needed love.
Regarding the suggestion about fitting the AF with medium sized turrets/launchers, that is like making it half way into a HAC,, in other words; a HAC would be twice as good for the job.
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Borsek's Clone
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Posted - 2008.05.07 20:39:00 -
[79]
I think assault frigs should work as nano-catchers. Make them have a 200 or 300% boost to all webbing equipment and say, a bonus which makes all MWDs get their speed increase % increased (No change for AB's), but also get their power usage increased:
MWD on a normal ship - 500% boost to speed, 50 energy, 500% sig radius. MWD on an AS - 4000% boost to speed, 400 energy, 500% sig radius.
OFC, these numbers are just here as an example... this would effectively allow you to catch a nano ship and web it, then get your gang to warp or fly to you. OFC, this is just an idea. The AF would not replace the inty as it could not keep it's mwd running indefinately, but only for a cycle or two. It would make an eccelent nanocatcher as it could outspeed anything, but once it gets to the ship it's hunting it can barely last long enough for the fleet to show up - say 30 seconds or so. Maybe link this MWD speciality so it only works in a fleet or the AF could be the ultimate escape vehicle... gatecamp? No probs, just start up your OMGWTF overpowered MWD and practically warp a few hundred km away. - this is the issue >.<
Dunno... right now I'm confused by my own statements.
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Johnny Gurkha
Maleficus Cruentus Interfeci
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Posted - 2008.05.07 20:51:00 -
[80]
The only thing the AF needs is a rep bonus to go with it's natural toughness IMO. 20% repair bonus per Assault Ship skill level would definitely make them worth the training time
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.05.07 21:02:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Odet
Originally by: Sokratesz Web immunity is all they need.
There has been talk of that all over, but honestly woudl you fly an assault frig purely because it has web immunity? I mean it would be a nice added feature for them. However I don't it would necisarilly fix the assault frig as it needs a real purpose. You want a better tackler? get an interdictor.
Web immunity or resistance would be a pretty big deal for small scale pvp I'd think.
I think what they need most is to be at least as light and fast as normal frigs, preferably a bit lighter and faster (like hacs are to regular cruisers).
With web immunity and the movement properties of normal frigs they would be able to dictate the range of most engagements. That's what makes nanos so strong right now so don't underestimate that stength.
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GoGetItForMe
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Posted - 2008.05.07 21:14:00 -
[82]
Not sure if this has been suggested, but how about making them a mini-marauder? Take away a turret and give them 100% damage bonus on the remaining slots? |
Orb Lati
Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.07 21:26:00 -
[83]
One option i might suggest is giving Assault Frigs fitting bonuses to fit a Siege Launcher but with a reduced ammo clip and increased reload time (but possibly a damage bonus).
This would in effect turn them into frigate class bombers against larger Targets and make them especially useful against Battleships, but useless against frigs and interceptors which is the destroyers niche.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Cybele Lanier
Amarr The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.07 21:45:00 -
[84]
Honestly, I don't think AF's need some sort of one-size-fits-all "role", any more than HACs do. I'd sooner see a general beefing up of their stats--going back to HACs, a Vagabond, Ishtar or Deimos all handle very differently, but are all valid in different ways because their stats justify their cost and increased risk. There's already room for a fourth AF bonus, just make the resist bonuses standard instead of based on a skill every AF pilot must have at 5 anyway.
A lot of the ideas (web immunity, oversized weapons, gang bonuses, seige module) are cool, but seem like they'd work better as modules or completely new ship classes. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence." |
Arkios Odymei
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.05.07 22:10:00 -
[85]
No sense reinventing the wheel... Just as Heavy Assault ships dont have any real role other than combat, frigate sized Assault Ships should be combat related as well.
Heres what I think they need:
1)Lower their mass to that of their T1 counterparts. (Right now they handle like a pig with a cow on its back... This will make them feel like frigs again, aswell as indirectly boost their speed when they fit a MWD or AB.)
2)Make their racial resists built in to the ship (like HACs) and replace that fake bonus with one carrier over from their T1 counterpart. (IE- Caldari would get +25% to shiled resists, Gallente would get +50% to Falloff, Minmatar would get +37.5% to tracking, and Amarr would get +25% to armor resists. Note: The Vengeance might a bit imba with 2 resist bonuses, so maybe the resist bonus from the assault frig skill should be changed to a rocket ROF bonus. This would make the Vengeance a Mini- Sacrilege, bonus-wise.)
3)Give them all a role bonus of 50% web resistance. (as they are combat frigates and frigate combat occurs up close and personal, they need to be designed to survie it. Right now, Web = death to all frigs.)
If thats not enough, another Idea would be to give them all another role bonus of +200% bonus to Afterburner Speed Boost. This would tripple their ab speed boost, making it slightly less than their MWD speed, but without the cap and sig radius penalties. So a T2 AB normaly giving a speed boost +135% (+168.75% with skills) would now give a speed boost of +405% (+506.25% with skills)... Compared with a T2 MWD's +550% (+687.5% with skills). Although they will have smaller sigs, they will never be able to be speed demons like Interceptors are, so AFs wont out class them. ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Zurrar
Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.05.07 22:16:00 -
[86]
speaking for gallente, caldari, amarr AF's, they are fine.
AF's roles are what ever you use them for. its like a dessy. im a pvp vet in hawk, ishkur, and vengence. ill tell you hawk can tank 3 vagas easy, and with t2 jav rockets lay down some fire on them. ishkur used right can kill any t1 cruiser, and hurt a bc. it only takes proper skills and flying ability. my capital pilot will be in a hawk soon again, (stupidly i sold my hawk pilot...) and i plan on using it against nano gangs :)
Originally by: Darla Dawson Quit, and go play wow
I slaughter the english language better than a isk farmer. I love you. |
Tarel Necor
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.07 22:37:00 -
[87]
There is one niche that I can think of for the Assault frigate and that would be with a resistance [50->75% (10-15% per AF level)] to the effects of webs and with a boost to the speed gained from fitting an AB by maybe 100% it could more effectively tank the larger ships, a Jaguar unskilled would go 1236 m/s keeping it below the level of the MWD (1517m/s) (speeds according to EFT)
I also agree they are lacking in agility but this could be easily solved with a small tweak of stats.
This would allow them to remain an effective combat ship without encroching on the other T2 varients roles (tackler etc).
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Arkios Odymei
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.05.08 01:05:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Zurrar so your saying nano fit af's as hacs are fit?
Because the fact that I am saying you should be fitting an ab and still go slower than if you had MWD means Nano it...
I see your trying to do a little Eve Social Commentary (Imply that all HACs are nano'ed these days), but what about ships like the Deimos, the dual-MAR Sac, the Beagle... Thats more along the lines that Im going for. ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Schalac
Caldari Brotherhood of Wolves
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Posted - 2008.05.08 01:37:00 -
[89]
I would take it beyond web immunity and say that each races assault ships should have resist bonuses against their factional enemies. Like minny AFs would be strong against neuts and vamps, gallente AFs would be strong against ECM, amarr AFs would disperse target painting mods and power through webs and caldari AFs would have a stronger base warp strength and advanced targeting systems that allow them to counteract the effects of damps.
You could tie that in with factional warfare in a story about how the empires spies are working diligently to expose each races attempts at electronic warfare and how they worked out "assault" ships capable of actually performing and assault on their enemies.
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Kelso Bluebane
Minmatar Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2008.05.08 06:31:00 -
[90]
How about a new module and role bonus, which can only be fitted on A/F's that stops Warp Disruption Field Generaters from working ?
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