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Badhbh
Terra Incognita
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Posted - 2008.03.10 15:20:00 -
[91]
Originally by: KIATolon
Originally by: Saldoro Cyno tower in NOL was also taken down.
Keeping that down cost multiple caps and hundreds of BS. Also bob have 23/7 titan coverage.
What you saying here is BoB was more organzied than you?
You had it down you could have kept it down with enough will :P
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Pastora
Russian SOBR Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.10 15:21:00 -
[92]
But wait and see, when there will be gangs with 20+ titans on the same grid... :) _______________________________________________ If ifs and ands were pots and pans, I would grow mushrooms in my pants. |
Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 15:22:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Badhbh
Originally by: KIATolon
Originally by: Saldoro Cyno tower in NOL was also taken down.
Keeping that down cost multiple caps and hundreds of BS. Also bob have 23/7 titan coverage.
What you saying here is BoB was more organzied than you?
You had it down you could have kept it down with enough will :P
Yes, keeping 2 titans online is a lot harder than keeping hundreds of bs / capitals online.
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Brmble
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 15:23:00 -
[94]
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: Scavok Good thing this is a game and not a political system, where stuff that is clearly broken can easily be fixed and you don't have to live with it just because it's the way it is.
I think your still struggling with the "clearly broken" part.. sofar you've got to: "it's not easy, i'll cry on the forums alot and hope it's changed"
There is very few alliances i would suggest that it is next to impossible to take systems off when they put their minds to defending them.. and tbh i dont see a problem with the strongest alliances being able to defend themselves.. The number of systems they can defend is still limited..
wich implies you just got unlucky that you had so few titans to defend the south with
had we attacked later you would have had more titans and at some point defense of the whole south would become as trivial as the defense of delve
~ no not believin in urself ~ |
Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 15:23:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Pastora But wait and see, when there will be gangs with 20+ titans on the same grid... :)
Once doomsdays become a problem for capital ships, capital ships will really need rethinking.
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Frygok
Minmatar Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:03:00 -
[96]
It's really a shame that posters here can't seem to look beyond the alliance name of others, to see the points they are trying to make.
As a fairly neutral part in this debacle, I have to admit that cynojammer+titan combo is pretty crazy. Whether or not they are encouraging or discouraging blobs, having to warp in battleship fleets in the size of +100 where there are multiple titans, tens of caps and supercaps does seem like pure suicide.
I for one can't really see how to take down a jammer and get the capital ships into a system defended in such a way. It's not about numbers for me either. It's not that you are reaching the maximum of what diplomacy can do. Because it's not that you can't get 5000 people into a system, it's about you can't get a single capital ship into a system until your BS fleet somehow magically survives multiple titans (a phenomenon that will undoubtebly become worse as time goes by), caps and pos guns. The only way I see this happening is timezone fightings, but if the cynojammers that are incapped can be replaced by the defenders instantly, it's not really encouraging.
There needs to be found a way where the attackers can have some sort of advantage, instead of just running into the cyno+titan combo like lambs to the slaughter, while at the same time not just be able to jump in 200 caps.
The answer in my eyes is to be found in the way that POS warfare works in general. I'll leave that to more experienced players than me though.
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Rudi Storm
SGL
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:07:00 -
[97]
You (well not Goons by them self) have taken Cynojammed systems before and not so long ago. You know it can be done and it has been done. Since when is it broken? Since a few days? Since a week? Was there an update (to titans and cyno jammers) in the last 2 weeks that I don't know of?
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:12:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:13:40
Originally by: Frygok There needs to be found a way where the attackers can have some sort of advantage, instead of just running into the cyno+titan combo like lambs to the slaughter, while at the same time not just be able to jump in 200 caps.
They already have one, especially this group.
It's called "mobility".
Anyone who thinks it is easy, logistically, to get a capital fleet, not least titans, through a jump bridge, in to a jammed system, has never done it.
It isn't easy, it requires commitment to the cause to complete these logistics and I note with GREAT irony that what the goons are now complaining about is what enabled them to operate and clear out the towers in 9-9 all that time ago.
Hypocrites, much? Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Lucius Ventrue
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:18:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Fire Hawk
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Wow DD deactivating cyno jammer for some time (even 15 min) is an AWESOME idea!!!!!!
yes awesome, so you can sum eve to : bring more numbers than your enemy and you win.
This balance thingy is just stupid. If you use good tactics you can just avoid them. If you work in a system during some days, you will prevent titans to come in and lock down the system and it will be yours.
I know what you are trying to do there. You want stuff to be easier and add voices. Fact is that the coalition wants to jump a huge fleet in a system, easly take the jammer and pile more ships in local while dreads work. Result, defender, with lag, can't do anything.
Now you have to work a tactics and patience. If you don't have both, play another game and give me your stuff.
This is exactly it.
Game gets harder, so B** and C** to get enough voices behind it to get the game changed. It worked once before so why not give it another shot again...
This is just more of the poor me BS. Tactics, Planning good coordination, spacial awareness, little bit of patience would pay dividens, but some folks want their cake and eat it too...
Going to be commical if/when we go back on the offensive, how much these cynojamming situations vs several titans are going to be an issue for us.
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Frygok
Minmatar Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:18:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:13:40
Originally by: Frygok There needs to be found a way where the attackers can have some sort of advantage, instead of just running into the cyno+titan combo like lambs to the slaughter, while at the same time not just be able to jump in 200 caps.
They already have one, especially this group.
It's called "mobility".
Anyone who thinks it is easy, logistically, to get a capital fleet, not least titans, through a jump bridge, in to a jammed system, has never done it.
It isn't easy, it requires commitment to the cause to complete these logistics and I note with GREAT irony that what the goons are now complaining about is what enabled them to operate and clear out the towers in 9-9 all that time ago.
Hypocrites, much?
So you would be fine with nerfing of the cyno+titan combo? Because that was actually what I would like to see, only not to the point of the cyno being a 10 second obstacle and then onwards the capital rush.
That was why I was arguing for a "middle ground" between the trenches of cyno+titan and cyno being useless.
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Dafuzz
Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:20:00 -
[101]
When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers".
We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems.
It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort.
Bring it.
--
-If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets.. |
Mr Mozzie
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:22:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Scavok Allowing 2 people to defeat an otherwise superior and better organized fleet is good game design?
Okay? You are joking right?
At least you got the number of titans right.
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Rudi Storm
SGL
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:26:00 -
[103]
Every time a BoB DD is used 10 random BoB Subscriptions should be deleted. That sounds about fair! That should teach those cheating bobits!!!
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:28:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Dafuzz When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers".
We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems.
It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort.
Bring it.
When you 'gave'?
Damn, rewriting history FTW.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:28:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Dafuzz When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers".
We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems.
It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort.
Bring it.
:eff
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:29:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Frygok So you would be fine with nerfing of the cyno+titan combo? Because that was actually what I would like to see, only not to the point of the cyno being a 10 second obstacle and then onwards the capital rush.
That was why I was arguing for a "middle ground" between the trenches of cyno+titan and cyno being useless.
No, I think any group that has the commitment and determination to build such gargantuan ships should benefit from them, absolutely no doubt. Because, where does it stop? "Oh look, the enemy has 30 ms at a shredder tower and we can't break them WHAAAA nerf ms and cyno jammer!".
No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken.
Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:31:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Frygok So you would be fine with nerfing of the cyno+titan combo? Because that was actually what I would like to see, only not to the point of the cyno being a 10 second obstacle and then onwards the capital rush.
That was why I was arguing for a "middle ground" between the trenches of cyno+titan and cyno being useless.
No, I think any group that has the commitment and determination to build such gargantuan ships should benefit from them, absolutely no doubt. Because, where does it stop? "Oh look, the enemy has 30 ms at a shredder tower and we can't break them WHAAAA nerf ms and cyno jammer!".
No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken.
Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo.
Ok so you agree they should be nerfed, all we now need to debate is to what extent
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KIATolon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:31:00 -
[108]
Edited by: KIATolon on 10/03/2008 16:32:30
Originally by: Dianabolic It isn't easy, it requires commitment to the cause to complete these logistics and I note with GREAT irony that what the goons are now complaining about is what enabled them to operate and clear out the towers in 9-9 all that time ago.
Hypocrites, much?
Ah, all those times we dd'd your fleet in 9-9 as you tried to take down the jammer. I must have pressed that buton 5-7 times one night alone. Damn that bought back memories. My apologies for the hypocrisy.
Originally by: Dianabolic Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo.
Yet you've still never been able to take a goon jammed system. Why is that?
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Dafuzz
Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:32:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Malachon Draco When you 'gave'?
Damn, rewriting history FTW.
You saw correctly.
They think they took what we rightfully gave up. They tried to get me to invade Scalding Pass for good fights. I told em no, they were gonna have to take a month and plant towers in between their areas and Delve, in regions we vacated, and that they could "bring it" to our doorstep for a change.
We withdrew to Delve. Now we are stalemated. Just look at all the cries to nerf cynojammers and titans again.
--
-If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets.. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:35:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Dafuzz
Originally by: Malachon Draco When you 'gave'?
Damn, rewriting history FTW.
You saw correctly.
They think they took what we rightfully gave up. They tried to get me to invade Scalding Pass for good fights. I told em no, they were gonna have to take a month and plant towers in between their areas and Delve, in regions we vacated, and that they could "bring it" to our doorstep for a change.
We withdrew to Delve. Now we are stalemated. Just look at all the cries to nerf cynojammers and titans again.
There is a distinct difference between 'giving' and 'giving up'. I am sure the more educated members of BoB can explain the difference.
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Fire Hawk
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:35:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:36:26
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Dafuzz
Originally by: Malachon Draco When you 'gave'?
Damn, rewriting history FTW.
You saw correctly.
They think they took what we rightfully gave up. They tried to get me to invade Scalding Pass for good fights. I told em no, they were gonna have to take a month and plant towers in between their areas and Delve, in regions we vacated, and that they could "bring it" to our doorstep for a change.
We withdrew to Delve. Now we are stalemated. Just look at all the cries to nerf cynojammers and titans again.
There is a distinct difference between 'giving' and 'giving up'. I am sure the more educated members of BoB can explain the difference.
Well it was hard to "pick" them after we "giving up" them.
DICE French Wing ___ Fear the french touch.
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Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:35:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Dianabolic Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:36:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Fire Hawk
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Dafuzz When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers".
We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems.
It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort.
Bring it.
When you 'gave'?
Damn, rewriting history FTW.
You missed the official announcement ? You know the movie made by wildcard productions... You see, I got Pics, do you ?
Announcing you're running away screaming like a little girl does not make it voluntary.
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Pastora
Russian SOBR Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:36:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Dianabolic No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken.
Shock! Actually, to be honest, I totally agree with this. This is the only and easiest solution to implement at the moment. _______________________________________________ If ifs and ands were pots and pans, I would grow mushrooms in my pants. |
KIATolon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:37:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Fire Hawk You missed the official announcement ? You know the movie made by wildcard productions... You see, I got Pics, do you ?
Was that the one that said bob would rule all of eve, or another?
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Fire Hawk
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:39:00 -
[116]
Originally by: KIATolon
Originally by: Fire Hawk You missed the official announcement ? You know the movie made by wildcard productions... You see, I got Pics, do you ?
Was that the one that said bob would rule all of eve, or another?
The another one, you dumb
DICE French Wing ___ Fear the french touch.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:42:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:42:15
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Dianabolic No, I think any group that has the commitment and determination to build such gargantuan ships should benefit from them, absolutely no doubt. Because, where does it stop? "Oh look, the enemy has 30 ms at a shredder tower and we can't break them WHAAAA nerf ms and cyno jammer!".
No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken.
Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo.
Ok so you agree they should be nerfed, all we now need to debate is to what extent
No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed.
I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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KIATolon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:44:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Dianabolic No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed.
I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed.
I like your idea, but I think it should be extended to MS too... maybe. With 20-30 ms repping a POS mod, it wont die, and they cant be jammed or killed without a blob too large for the server to handle.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:46:00 -
[119]
Originally by: KIATolon
Originally by: Dianabolic No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed.
I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed.
I like your idea, but I think it should be extended to MS too... maybe. With 20-30 ms repping a POS mod, it wont die, and they cant be jammed or killed without a blob too large for the server to handle.
You have to give the defender an advantage though. If they can build, fuel, move and muster 30 motherships then it SHOULD be hard as nails to break, imo... if not impossible. And if that can be applied to more than one system (and I don't think any group has that many ms, even) then more power to them.
Economic power does have to count for something, after all. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Marcus Aurelius
Colossus Security Services
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:47:00 -
[120]
If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous...
How about making pos less important instead of more ?
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