Originally by: Chith

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I forget who was commenting, but at the end of the tourney the stereotypical 'if you could change eve, how would you' question came up. Best response I've ever heard: remove all learning skills. We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game. I personally know a few folks who got burned out merely because of that. I agree, it's tremendously lame.

If there were any kind of sweeping change to the game that I would support, it would be to remove these skills. Whatever system is employed to do this is fine -- personally I wouldn't care if they just took the 2.5mil sp i have in learning away. A change like this would weaken the hegemony of high-sp players and do a lot for the fostering of new players, benefiting everyone.

I don't doubt that this has been posted before. Maybe this time it can get some traction and be included with the next patch (the one after march 11th).

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Originally by: Burnharder

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What's the point? If you want to invest in faster SP acquisition, you can, if you don't want to, don't. N00bs start the game with loads more SP's than we did when we started out in 2003.

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Originally by: Miss Anthropy

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This is a good idea actually. Learning skills probably do more to turn people off the game than anything else. Who wants to play a game where, in order to learn new skills, you have to learn skills that help you learn skills faster? This is dumb and is a huge time sink on new players who just want to get into the action.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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I agree with the poster above me.

No one is holding a gun to your head stating that you MUST train learning skills. As a matter of fact, if you've not made the decision to play this game long term, but rather only for a couple of months, you wouldn't make up the time lost training those skills.

So true newbs are losing nothing if the advice were simply, train what you want to train, and later on if you really think you're going to be playing for the long haul - train your learning skills.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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I agree with the poster above me.

No one is holding a gun to your head stating that you MUST train learning skills. As a matter of fact, if you've not made the decision to play this game long term, but rather only for a couple of months, you wouldn't make up the time lost training those skills.

So true newbs are losing nothing if the advice were simply, train what you want to train, and later on if you really think you're going to be playing for the long haul - train your learning skills.

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Originally by: skuko

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this is my main and i have 8m SP.

chith, i see your point, but on the other hand, i don't see anything wrong with the current system. i've nowhere to rush, i don't regret one second of training the learning skills (basic 5, advanced 4). forme, eve is a long term game, so i'm fine with investing roughly 2 months into training up learnings. what i did (and what my advice to newbs is), trained to cruiser and supporting skills and hung around level 2 missions for that period, acquainted myself with the game and mechanics, talked to people about various aspects and this time served me for making up my mind, what a really want to do in this game. so basically it gave me the time to think it through and not to rush into something i would regret...

all in all, i think the system is fine....

P.S. been playing about half a year now...

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Originally by: Del Narveux

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...where people simply stop signing up because they'll never have any chance of being good at stuff.

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Originally by: Drasked

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Telling a new player to dive straight into the learning skills is the most ******** advice you can give, lets start there.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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I agree with the poster above me.

No one is holding a gun to your head stating that you MUST train learning skills. As a matter of fact, if you've not made the decision to play this game long term, but rather only for a couple of months, you wouldn't make up the time lost training those skills.

So true newbs are losing nothing if the advice were simply, train what you want to train, and later on if you really think you're going to be playing for the long haul - train your learning skills.

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Originally by: Saffin

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blablabla

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Originally by: Saffin

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I agree that learning skils should be pulled out the game, well easier solution dont pull them out the game just give everyone lvl 5 in all learning skills.

Anyone that already has the skils has lost nothing as they have had the benefit of them, they have lost there advantage going forward but have had the advantage for a while not lost out completely.

The only real issue is with the people that train advanced learning skills to lvl 5 where it is going to take them years to recoup. For this special case you give a one off skill point boost of the time of the advanced level 5 skill.

I imagine most players dont have advanced skills to level 5 anyway so they gain too in progression.

No one loses from having trained learning skills, all they lose is there advantage going forward from the point everyone is given lvl 5.

Im a fully 5/4 skill learning and have no problem with this at all. Very old players have had the advantage for a while.

So the only real "losers" are new characters still training there learning skills as they have been training for nothing (they would have got it anyway), as they have got no advantage from it but have spent the time (which they could have used on real skills). Now im one of then too on my alt account. I think if you said well you "wasted" a month but dont have "waste" another month they would be happy. At least i would.

Saf

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Originally by: Barzam

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Originally by: Drasked

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Telling a new player to dive straight into the learning skills is the most ******** advice you can give, lets start there.

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Agreed. But given the question: "What's the best way I can max out my capability of getting into cool ships and using cool modules?", what is the reply still?

"Caldari Achura. All learning to 5, advanced to 4, +5 implants"

So no. The problem is not people telling players what the best way is. The problem is that the best way to do things sucks for new players.

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Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Saffin

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I agree that learning skils should be pulled out the game, well easier solution dont pull them out the game just give everyone lvl 5 in all learning skills.

Anyone that already has the skils has lost nothing as they have had the benefit of them, they have lost there advantage going forward but have had the advantage for a while not lost out completely.

The only real issue is with the people that train advanced learning skills to lvl 5 where it is going to take them years to recoup. For this special case you give a one off skill point boost of the time of the advanced level 5 skill.

I imagine most players dont have advanced skills to level 5 anyway so they gain too in progression.

No one loses from having trained learning skills, all they lose is there advantage going forward from the point everyone is given lvl 5.

Im a fully 5/4 skill learning and have no problem with this at all. Very old players have had the advantage for a while.

So the only real "losers" are new characters still training there learning skills as they have been training for nothing (they would have got it anyway), as they have got no advantage from it but have spent the time (which they could have used on real skills). Now im one of then too on my alt account. I think if you said well you "wasted" a month but dont have "waste" another month they would be happy. At least i would.

Saf

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So, would I get a SP boost to make up for all the time I spent training skills before the introduction of Advanced Learning skills.
Only fair right?
Even if it does mean giving the oldest playaers even more SP's, further extending the skill gap.

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Originally by: GinoShin

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Edited by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44
whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?

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Originally by: Saffin

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Nope cos you have had a year plus (as i have) of having an advantage from learning them skills. It only the advantage going forward you lose, not the one from the years past that you loss.

Saf

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Originally by: Barzam

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Originally by: Drasked

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Telling a new player to dive straight into the learning skills is the most ******** advice you can give, lets start there.

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Agreed. But given the question: "What's the best way I can max out my capability of getting into cool ships and using cool modules?", what is the reply still?

"Caldari Achura. All learning to 5, advanced to 4, +5 implants"

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Originally by: Tyr Zewa

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If you'd remove all old chars for a month, and make all those 50mil+ sp chars play start chars (that are ah so awesome now, with almost 1mil sp blahblahblah) they'd quickly get bored of only being able to fly one ship too and change their mind.

As it is, they don't understand how it is to actually be a new player and only see what they had. At worst they even come up with "go back to wow for instant gratification" bull**** lines.

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Originally by: Kahega Amielden

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Learning skills do nothing but add a timesink before players can start doing -real- stuff in the game. Yes, they can CHOOSE to not do it, but they're effectively forced to (or they will be very far behind in the long run). Just remove them, give everyone +10 to all attributes.

Would make the game more accessible without dumbing it down-that's always a good thing.

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Originally by: Saffin

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I think the point is where does it say this system has to be "fair".

so a year of training in 2004 is not equal to a year of training 2008 (which it isn't now cos all learnings did not exist). So what the game is very different. The amount to have to learn in 2008 is far greater. It not like the new players are going to catch you. It just that they will stay the set amount behind, not an ever growing amount.

btw i was playing in 2004, this would affect me as much as most. Sounding to me like a complete elitist ideaology that cos you played since beta you should be uber. Most games people ctach old players in 3 months (serios grind) 6 month casual play. In eve if everyone was given lvl 5 they would never catch the older players but would not be lossing out in the gap month on month.

Saf

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Originally by: Tyr Zewa

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If you'd remove all old chars for a month, and make all those 50mil+ sp chars play start chars (that are ah so awesome now, with almost 1mil sp blahblahblah) they'd quickly get bored of only being able to fly one ship too and change their mind.

As it is, they don't understand how it is to actually be a new player and only see what they had. At worst they even come up with "go back to wow for instant gratification" bull**** lines.

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Originally by: Vincent Lionhart

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*Puts on flame suit*

Alright 'tards. And I am referring to the people who say learning skills are a choice. When I first started out EvE, people kept encouraging me to get learning skills. After looking at attributes, I realized how useful they were as well. Back then, Tier 2 training skills were not out yet so getting training skills to lvl 4 was all we needed.

Now for the morons who think that this is an "optional" skill. Why don't you look at your own skill tree and tell me if it's there. Is it optional? That is about the dumbest argument I've heard in my life. In Final Fantasy XI, using macros was "optional" and if you didn't you gonna get the boot outta the party. City of Heroes, Hasten is "optional, and so is Stamina, again if you don't get it, you will get flamed and have difficulties.

The hell do you mean by optional? People encourage newbs to get the skills, and any newb with a brain can see how useful the skills are. So while they're ignoring these "optional" skills, the skills will be pounding on their brains reminding them that they need to be trained at some point in the game.

Optional? Crappiest argument ever.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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The problem isn't learning skills, it's people telling new players to learn all the learning skills to V first thing.

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Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Saffin

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I think the point is where does it say this system has to be "fair".

so a year of training in 2004 is not equal to a year of training 2008 (which it isn't now cos all learnings did not exist). So what the game is very different. The amount to have to learn in 2008 is far greater. It not like the new players are going to catch you. It just that they will stay the set amount behind, not an ever growing amount.

btw i was playing in 2004, this would affect me as much as most. Sounding to me like a complete elitist ideaology that cos you played since beta you should be uber. Most games people ctach old players in 3 months (serios grind) 6 month casual play. In eve if everyone was given lvl 5 they would never catch the older players but would not be lossing out in the gap month on month.

Saf

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They train at the same rate, or faster, than I did at that stage in the game.
They may be training slower than I am right now, but that does not mean the gap is increasing - because they are just going through the same phase as we all went through in the beginning .. with the added advantages of loads more starting SP's and the availability of advanced learning skills and cheap implants.

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Originally by: Saffin

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Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Saffin

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I think the point is where does it say this system has to be "fair".

so a year of training in 2004 is not equal to a year of training 2008 (which it isn't now cos all learnings did not exist). So what the game is very different. The amount to have to learn in 2008 is far greater. It not like the new players are going to catch you. It just that they will stay the set amount behind, not an ever growing amount.

btw i was playing in 2004, this would affect me as much as most. Sounding to me like a complete elitist ideaology that cos you played since beta you should be uber. Most games people ctach old players in 3 months (serios grind) 6 month casual play. In eve if everyone was given lvl 5 they would never catch the older players but would not be lossing out in the gap month on month.

Saf

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They train at the same rate, or faster, than I did at that stage in the game.
They may be training slower than I am right now, but that does not mean the gap is increasing - because they are just going through the same phase as we all went through in the beginning .. with the added advantages of loads more starting SP's and the availability of advanced learning skills and cheap implants.

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I dont believe they do train faster, because when we where training that slowly we didnt have compete with people with tech 2 mods and tech 2 ships, so the extra skills where significant, but not as significant. Cruiser lvl 5 was not a big investment that gained, you gained the whole 5% damage increase (or alike) - now it gain the ability to fly a tech 2 ships with tech 2 resists, Hp etc. So cruiser lvl 5 is not the deminishing returns it was in our early days.

Saf

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Originally by: Anell

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Learning skills make it possible to gain skills at a much faster rate (I can't believe I needed to point that out). I can't think of something that would turn more people off then finding out that the 4 day skill they are training now will suddenly require 7 days.

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Originally by: Zero Target

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Originally by: Anell

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Learning skills make it possible to gain skills at a much faster rate (I can't believe I needed to point that out). I can't think of something that would turn more people off then finding out that the 4 day skill they are training now will suddenly require 7 days.

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Well obviously if they got rid of learning skills they would have to give everyone 5/5 on learning skills so no one would get burned by having trained them.

Blizzard has done a similar thing recently by nerfing the amount of time it takes to level up, encouraging more people to try different classes etc. since it doesn't take nearly as long, and from what I understand it's been very successful in retaining existing players and attracting new ones.

(By the way I currently have all learning skills at 4 and +5 attribute implants, and I would love if they got rid of the learning skills.)

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Originally by: Vincent Lionhart

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Now for the morons who think that this is an "optional" skill. Why don't you look at your own skill tree and tell me if it's there. Is it optional? That is about the dumbest argument I've heard in my life.

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Originally by: Avon

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Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26
The learning skills aren't the problem.
The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they *must* train the learning skills before they even consider undocking.

Bad advice is the issue.

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Originally by: Avon

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So this discussion has skipped from learning to TII stuff should be the baseline for ships and equipment, so people should be able to fly it from day 0?

Maybe Titans could be the new noob ships?


How long do you think people are going to play if they don't have something to work towards?

Giving people their dreams on a plate will just lead to dissapointment and boredom.

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Originally by: Tyr Zewa

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nor where there 40 different ship types to try out..... we had frigs, cruiser, battleships.... that's all there was. oh yeah and ofc Amarr indy lvl1 for to fly a bestower :P

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Originally by: Zero Target

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Who in their right mind wouldn't train their learning skills, and as early as possible in the game?

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Originally by: Anell

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The only time any kind of adjustment to the Learning skills makes sense is if CCP is going to boost every single character in the game with a +10 to every attribute. Does anyone really think CCP is going to do that? I honestly think we have better chances of CCP making the newbie ship a battleship before they would give a +10 to each attribute.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Edited by: Malcanis on 10/03/2008 16:24:12
How about a compromise: Give people two options

Either: Create and train a character as per the status quo

Or: Create a character as per the status quo, with completed learning skills, but with base stats at 1 rather than 3 (ie: 10 stat points less than the maximum potential of the first option, or 5 less than the classic "5+4"), and with a reduced selection of starting skills (about 100-200k SP worth)

New players can then chose either a quick early boost, or long-term advantage, with existing characters effectively already having chosen that long-term advantage. It would probably be fairly easy to think up some RP justification for this, and it would be a real choice: instant short-term gain or long-term payoff.

Of course in a year or so, the short-termers would start whining, but...

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Originally by: Chith

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I would personally advocate just buffing all stats to the point where everyone has max learning skills and then reimbursing those points. Faster trains kept, noone ends up getting boned on time already spent. It would require code work to develop a system to redistribute, but that would be a powerful tool for the developers to be able to make some long-needed changes in a variety of areas.

I still don't understand what the argument is FOR these skills.

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Points 1 to 4...

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Originally by: Avon

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Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26
The learning skills aren't the problem.
The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they *must* train the learning skills before they even consider undocking.

Bad advice is the issue.

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Originally by: OwlManAtt

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The learning skills are a fun tax. It's immeasurably difficult to be competitive in EVE without putting yourself on an even playing field with everyone else skillwise. It is true that you do not have to train the learning skills, as no modules or ships list them as prereqs, but you will never be competitive if you do not invest at least a few weeks in the skills.

Remove the learning skills and give everybody +10 to their attributes to make up for the difference. Sure, you're down some SP, but who cares? Your SP is down in relation to every other oldie's, and newbies no longer need to spend their time paying a fun tax.

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Originally by: Chith

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We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game.

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Originally by: Burnharder

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Points 1 to 4...

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Start at the basics. What problem are you trying to solve here exactly? n00b can't jump into a super-ship in his first week? Learning takes too long? For what? To get to what you think of as an end-game?

This isn't your first MMO is it?

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Originally by: Akita T

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I have this crazy idea.
What if we remove ALL skills from the game, and make it a simple "who has more ISK and can find more friends" competition instead ?
[/sarcasm]

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Originally by: Furious Hawk

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Are you on drugs?

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Originally by: Furious Hawk

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The point of learning skills is in fact to progress you further in the game, faster.

Don't believe me? Go start a new account, and try to train Battlecruisers 5. I got there in 25 days. Let's see how long it takes you.

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Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight

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I have 34 million sp, I don't think this is an issue

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Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight

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At the end of the day if you not the type of player who can wait for the learning, skills to train then eve is not for you, there is a lot of sitting round and doing nothing and training many others skills.

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Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight

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If you don't have the patients in the first place eve is not for you. The devs don't want players who get board easy, as eveyone would play eve for 3 months get board and leave, its better for eve if the players are in it for the long haul.

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Originally by: Big Al

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But you have a good idea, lets punish the older playerbase in order to bring in new players that quit, on average, after 6 months.

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight

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I have 34 million sp, I don't think this is an issue

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Of course not.

Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight

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At the end of the day if you not the type of player who can wait for the learning, skills to train then eve is not for you, there is a lot of sitting round and doing nothing and training many others skills.

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Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight

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If you don't have the patients in the first place eve is not for you. The devs don't want players who get board easy, as eveyone would play eve for 3 months get board and leave, its better for eve if the players are in it for the long haul.

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I assume the devs want to make money.

Getting new players and KEEPING new players means more money for the devs.

If Chrysler could sell a 1970 vehicle with 12 mpg city as the 2008 model and get away with it they would, every business would. You must upgrade improve and enhance if you want to stay competitive and grow your business. CCP has to do that too.

Just because Gramps walked two miles to school Up-hill BOTH WAYS does not mean everyone should still have to. Get on the bus.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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So, if the argument is that two months is too long, then there's no argument - it's two weeks. If you come back and say two weeks is too long, then this is the wrong game for you. Some skills take 6+ months to train to level 5.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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1st off - let's start being honest about the skill queue for the learning skills. It takes 2 weeks to train the base skills and advanced skills to lvl 4 - So it isn't two months, it's 2 weeks.

I know this because I've just bought a 2nd account last week and that character already has more learning skills than my primary who's 1.75 yrs old.

So, if the argument is that two months is too long, then there's no argument - it's two weeks. If you come back and say two weeks is too long, then this is the wrong game for you. Some skills take 6+ months to train to level 5.

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Originally by: Chith

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If there were any kind of sweeping change to the game that I would support, it would be to remove these skills. Whatever system is employed to do this is fine -- personally I wouldn't care if they just took the 2.5mil sp i have in learning away. A change like this would weaken the hegemony of high-sp players and do a lot for the fostering of new players, benefiting everyone.

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Originally by: Chith

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We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game. I personally know a few folks who got burned out merely because of that. I agree, it's tremendously lame.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Edited by: George Techeye on 10/03/2008 18:34:30
Somewhere between Eve and Pong there is a good middle ground. Or is that too outlandish and inconceivable.

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Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

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How your base learning skills are set depends on your build, noobs who are told train learning first and actually do it are quite frankly a waste of space, if they can't figure out a flexiable plan they deserve to die to a few drones in the first weeks.
Learning skills are for when your logged off and won't be back for about for 12 hours or so, in your first month you need to get a balanced skill set, so most of your time is on rank 1's and 2's at low levels that only take a few hours.

Stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, sticking to what evemon tells you is not playing a game its being a machine following a program blindly, no intelligence or criticial thought required, i came to eve to escape that mentaility, thank god they do leave, harsh but thats eve isn't it!.

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Originally by: Chith

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Unless some drugs have inadvertently confused me, I'm pretty sure learning skills only affect little numbers on your char sheet making them tick faster. They in fact allow you to use no new modules, ships, equipment, or enable to use any of those to higher ability. Of course, we all know this. I think you sincerely misunderstood the point of the comment and opted for the much more humorous drug talk, though.

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Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

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Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 20:18:58

Originally by: George Techeye

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Edited by: George Techeye on 10/03/2008 18:34:30
Somewhere between Eve and Pong there is a good middle ground. Or is that too outlandish and inconceivable.

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yes i remember pong, it was the future of entertainmet when it came, two paddles and a ball, 1974, use to play it in the pub.
Eve is the other extreme if you hadn't realsised, if you want the middle, go play wow its about the centre ground between your two stated games.

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

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How your base learning skills are set depends on your build, noobs who are told train learning first and actually do it are quite frankly a waste of space, if they can't figure out a flexiable plan they deserve to die to a few drones in the first weeks.
Learning skills are for when your logged off and won't be back for about for 12 hours or so, in your first month you need to get a balanced skill set, so most of your time is on rank 1's and 2's at low levels that only take a few hours.

Stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, sticking to what evemon tells you is not playing a game its being a machine following a program blindly, no intelligence or criticial thought required, i came to eve to escape that mentaility, thank god they do leave, harsh but thats eve isn't it!.

---

A lot of people spend more time in eve mon than in eve online trying to adjust and schedule and fit and modify. There is something inherently wrong with a game that actually fosters that approach.

As so many people have said before and will continue to say as long as Eve-Online is a slave to the Training time-sink approach aboe all else, "It's the best game i never play."

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Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

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How your base learning skills are set depends on your build, noobs who are told train learning first and actually do it are quite frankly a waste of space, if they can't figure out a flexiable plan they deserve to die to a few drones in the first weeks.
Learning skills are for when your logged off and won't be back for about for 12 hours or so, in your first month you need to get a balanced skill set, so most of your time is on rank 1's and 2's at low levels that only take a few hours.

Stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, sticking to what evemon tells you is not playing a game its being a machine following a program blindly, no intelligence or criticial thought required, i came to eve to escape that mentaility, thank god they do leave, harsh but thats eve isn't it!.

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A lot of people spend more time in eve mon than in eve online trying to adjust and schedule and fit and modify. There is something inherently wrong with a game that actually fosters that approach.

As so many people have said before and will continue to say as long as Eve-Online is a slave to the Training time-sink approach aboe all else, "It's the best game i never play."

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So you admit they are stupid, you realise that you would lose attribute points too, your 30 days to lvl 5 will suddenly be 45+ days to use that nice tech 2 stuff you want, you consider that, umm smart move eh!.

You understand that Intelligence is related to Adaptability, do you want to play with people that can adapt or people that whine 24/7 because they want to play a different game but can't be arsed to go find it.

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Originally by: theteck

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what you said

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Originally by: theteck

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on 10 people 8 leave because learning its to long after 1 pay month

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Originally by: Bohoba

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all these wine and no sugestions

skill training is why I stay in the game if it turns to a

you got to kill xxxx before you can operate that mod
a grinding power lvl game I would have to give it up that is not my game

eve is one of a kind you guys sound like wow players please leave find another game

and to the op hehe go play wow or f2 bet you bounce right back here lol

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Originally by: George Techeye

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and the discussion degenerates into

STFU

GTFO

sigh.

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Originally by: Bohoba

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all these wine and no sugestions

skill training is why I stay in the game if it turns to a

you got to kill xxxx before you can operate that mod
a grinding power lvl game I would have to give it up that is not my game

eve is one of a kind you guys sound like wow players please leave find another game

and to the op hehe go play wow or f2 bet you bounce right back here lol

---

and the discussion degenerates into

STFU

GTFO

sigh.

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Originally by: Bohoba

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Originally by: George Techeye

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Originally by: Bohoba

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all these wine and no sugestions

skill training is why I stay in the game if it turns to a

you got to kill xxxx before you can operate that mod
a grinding power lvl game I would have to give it up that is not my game

eve is one of a kind you guys sound like wow players please leave find another game

and to the op hehe go play wow or f2 bet you bounce right back here lol

---

and the discussion degenerates into

STFU

GTFO

sigh.

---

thats because of 5 pages of wine and no suggetions :)

---

Originally by: jita pc232323

---

/signed

The easiest solution would be to give all characters L5 in all learning skills. For new characters the creation system can be kept, but give L5 skills as part of the basic skills package. Players can still create characters that train certain skill groups faster, just everyone starts on a level playing field.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: jita pc232323

---

/signed

The easiest solution would be to give all characters L5 in all learning skills. For new characters the creation system can be kept, but give L5 skills as part of the basic skills package. Players can still create characters that train certain skill groups faster, just everyone starts on a level playing field.

---

..... might as well give them all the same toon then as well, perhaps everyone should get free +5 implants as well.

Have you people honestly thought about what your proposing, i think not.

I'll say it again, stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, just because people give stupid advise does not warrant a change in game mechanics, if their advise angers you then go pod them or go to another game, you'll be replaced by someone who can understand how to play.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

The CCP Devs have stated they regret ever having put training skills in the game. It has turned into nothing more than a fun tax and they wish they had not done it.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

Plenty of suggestions were made on how to deal with it. Perhaps if you read the thread again you might see them.
'''
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I've got approximately 7M SP in learning across my characters... so I've *MADE* the decision that it was worth it.

My suggestion:
- Give everyone the attributes that would be granted by L5 learning skills
- Give those who spent the time training up learning the SP that they have in learning in something else (petition or automated process hopefully).

Done. Problem solved.

-Liang
..............................................

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

The CCP Devs have stated they regret ever having put training skills in the game. It has turned into nothing more than a fun tax and they wish they had not done it.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 21:04:34
..... might as well give them all the same toon then as well, perhaps everyone should get free +5 implants as well.

Have you people honestly thought about what your proposing, i think not.

---

Originally by: Bohoba

---

a bunch of messed up quotes and then you said:

those type of suggetions won't work all the suggetions are for the new players and nothing for the older player BASE you see I did read I think you need to re read
what all you want is to be able to fly a titan 2 days after you join eve eve is not a wash board game like wow eve is very vast and open to all types of game play unlike anyother online game it is simple if you don't like it leave
go fine a game the sutes you

---

Originally by: jita pc232323

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 21:04:34
..... might as well give them all the same toon then as well, perhaps everyone should get free +5 implants as well.

Have you people honestly thought about what your proposing, i think not.

---

I don't think you understand what's being proposed. The character creation system generates attributes according to your characters chosen specialisation. These attributes determine which skill groups you train faster. So giving people L5 learning skills still means that fighters train ship/gunnery/missiles etc faster than a researcher.

As for implants, these would reward people for training cybernetics and making an investment - useful, but not critical to unlocking key game components during your early EVE experience.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 21:15:47

Originally by: George Techeye

---

The CCP Devs have stated they regret ever having put training skills in the game. It has turned into nothing more than a fun tax and they wish they had not done it.

---

That is not relevent its here, nerfing it is not an option, they would have done it by now if it caused them to lose money, as it is it limits player base and therefore lag.
Umm i had a look, you are a Caldari Achura, School of Applied Knowledge of nearly 3 months standing, says it all doesn't it.

edited to remove an insult that was fitting but not very mature.

---

Originally by: jita pc232323

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 21:04:34
..... might as well give them all the same toon then as well, perhaps everyone should get free +5 implants as well.

Have you people honestly thought about what your proposing, i think not.

---

I don't think you understand what's being proposed. The character creation system generates attributes according to your characters chosen specialisation. These attributes determine which skill groups you train faster. So giving people L5 learning skills still means that fighters train ship/gunnery/missiles etc faster than a researcher.

As for implants, these would reward people for training cybernetics and making an investment - useful, but not critical to unlocking key game components during your early EVE experience.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

[its an alt you twit. Insult left in to compensate for your blatent ad hominem attack.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: jita pc232323

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 21:04:34
..... might as well give them all the same toon then as well, perhaps everyone should get free +5 implants as well.

Have you people honestly thought about what your proposing, i think not.

---

I don't think you understand what's being proposed. The character creation system generates attributes according to your characters chosen specialisation. These attributes determine which skill groups you train faster. So giving people L5 learning skills still means that fighters train ship/gunnery/missiles etc faster than a researcher.

As for implants, these would reward people for training cybernetics and making an investment - useful, but not critical to unlocking key game components during your early EVE experience.

---

Umm.. i do understand, what is being proposed is the penalisation (further) of the existing more mature player base who did those extra few days training, but it does give them the added benifit of getting more noobs to die in a shorter space of time played.

The reason they are different is to give different people choices, why do you think there are so many Caldari Achura, because people don't have any imagination, flexability or basic criticial thinking skills.

IMHO you don't want to play eve, because i doubt that you understand what CCP has built.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

[its an alt you twit. Insult left in to compensate for your blatent ad hominem attack.

---

Well why post with an alt, thats Trolling par excellence, post with your main or are you a) too embarassed by your main, or b) ashamed you thought of starting this thead.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

Wait how is giving the existing users who have trained learning skills, skill point compensation to use at their discretion penalizing them?

Your objection fails because its based on clearly not understanding what is beign suggested.

We are offering a win win and all you are seeing is whine whine.

Maybe you need to train Comprehension to level 5.

---

Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker

---

i worked my way to having a Battlecruiser before taking Learning skills seriously, figured i should be somewhat effective at combat before taking side skills on.

---

Originally by: Bohoba

---

those type of suggetions won't work all the suggetions are for the new players and nothing for the older player BASE you see I did read I think you need to re read

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

The old players get:
- Not having to train learning skills
- Their SP back

---

Originally by: Andrue

---

No, that's the wrong reply.

The correct reply is:

"Stop rushing. Enjoy the experience of playing the game."

Eve is not a game for the instant gratification crowd. If Learning skills are putting people off then they are serving a useful purpose. New players need to be taught what Eve really is not given a leg up by cheapening the system.

---

Originally by: Avon

---

Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 22:26:23

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

The old players get:
- Not having to train learning skills
- Their SP back

---

Do I get the SP I would have gained if I had started with training maxed, back before the advanced learning skills were available?
Or do I get penalised for the 5 points per attribute that just weren't available back then?

---

Originally by: Furious Hawk

---

If you never train learning, and attempt Cruiser five, it's going to take somewhere around 3 to 4 months.

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

What's the difference between an alt poster and a leech?

One is a blood sucking parasite, the other is a leech.

---

Originally by: Avon

---

Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 22:26:23

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

The old players get:
- Not having to train learning skills
- Their SP back

---

Do I get the SP I would have gained if I had started with training maxed, back before the advanced learning skills were available?
Or do I get penalised for the 5 points per attribute that just weren't available back then?

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

What's the difference between an alt poster and a leech?

One is a blood sucking parasite, the other is a leech.

---

Originally by: Jinx Barker

---

Compensate me for the SP count in Learning, and then I am fine with it. If not, then "they" the noobs, should do the same thing I was when I started.

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

...you'd still be just the same as everybody else.

---

Originally by: Valkazm

---

Funny thing is you already have 70 mill sp meaning by removing the learning skills it would take people even longer to catch up to you . it wouldnt change a single thing except you have 70 mill skillpoints isk to buy implants and they dont .

you sir FAIL !

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: Valkazm

---

Funny thing is you already have 70 mill sp meaning by removing the learning skills it would take people even longer to catch up to you . it wouldnt change a single thing except you have 70 mill skillpoints isk to buy implants and they dont .

you sir FAIL !

---

even worse they just posted earlier that he/she made the character they're posting with nearly 3 months ago on the same account as his main then discovered you can only skill up one character at a time per account.
see here

---

Originally by: RedLight Girl

---

Just my though on this,

I think the poster is right and learning skills should all be removed. In addition of that, you should give all charactars a +10 in all attributes and +10% from learning.

It wouldn't hurt anyone, and in addition it would save the newer players a few months training.

-

---

Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto

---

the problem in this discussion is that EVE has a ton of hardcore mmorpg fruitcakes that believe they are entitled to something special over any newer player. Guess what? The average player does not play eve as long as you have, the average player stays around less than a year and we need fresh meat to keep this game going.


Get over your weirdo selves and see that learning skills add nothing at all to the gameplay, thus they should effectively be removed. Give people all the basics at 4 and advanced to 3 so learnings are not so important.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: Valkazm

---

Funny thing is you already have 70 mill sp meaning by removing the learning skills it would take people even longer to catch up to you . it wouldnt change a single thing except you have 70 mill skillpoints isk to buy implants and they dont .

you sir FAIL !

---

even worse they just posted earlier that he/she made the character they're posting with nearly 3 months ago on the same account as his main then discovered you can only skill up one character at a time per account.
see here

---

What are you talking about you stupid ****. The person he is referring to is not my main. I wish i had 70 million sp on my main. I only have 6 million so far.

To reiterate because you are clearly a ******, I made this alt a few months ago thinking i would skill up for research manufacturing and discovered when i went to train that i had to shut my main training down to do it on the same account.

I found this out because my main lagged out entering jita and i had no other play option at the time so i created another toon to pass the time.

How in any way does not knowing that invalidate anything i have stated in this thread? I mean just because you are a stupid troll who relies on ad hominem attacks and anything you can latch on to to discredit something you dont agree with, how does that have any relevance to the discussion at hand about training skills?

Get your head out of your ass.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

edit: actually its an alt i started with the intention to train for research and manufacturing until i found out the scam that CCP has going where you cant train multiple toons on one account and have to PURCHASE a seperate account to train 2 characters at once...thus pilfing more money through derived "progression*****blocks" from their player base.

---

Originally by: Hitme Harder

---

Its the best change to eve that could possibly be done.
Not just learning skills though, attributes as well.

No attributes, no learning skills, no attribute enhancing implants. All they do is hurt longterm health of the game.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: Valkazm

---

Funny thing is you already have 70 mill sp meaning by removing the learning skills it would take people even longer to catch up to you . it wouldnt change a single thing except you have 70 mill skillpoints isk to buy implants and they dont .

you sir FAIL !

---

even worse they just posted earlier that he/she made the character they're posting with nearly 3 months ago on the same account as his main then discovered you can only skill up one character at a time per account.
see here

---

What are you talking about you stupid ****. The person he is referring to is not my main. I wish i had 70 million sp on my main. I only have 6 million so far.

To reiterate because you are clearly a ******, I made this alt a few months ago thinking i would skill up for research manufacturing and discovered when i went to train that i had to shut my main training down to do it on the same account.

I found this out because my main lagged out entering jita and i had no other play option at the time so i created another toon to pass the time.

How in any way does not knowing that invalidate anything i have stated in this thread? I mean just because you are a stupid troll who relies on ad hominem attacks and anything you can latch on to to discredit something you dont agree with, how does that have any relevance to the discussion at hand about training skills?

Get your head out of your ass.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

edit: actually its an alt i started with the intention to train for research and manufacturing until i found out the scam that CCP has going where you cant train multiple toons on one account and have to PURCHASE a seperate account to train 2 characters at once...thus pilfing more money through derived "progression*****blocks" from their player base.

---

Umm, now 3 months ago you had played for what 3 months and you still did not know a basic fact about the game, sorry if you think i'm a troll but i have given you many reasons why its not going to happen, and its seems if you care to look at the thread you were making ad hominem attacks well before i raised your character build, which as you know is the most common in the game, therefore, hardly original, and as you will not post with your main it means that you are hiding from the reactions to what you post.

I'm sure that you could edit the title, or have proof read it, but going on a rant is not helping advance your idea.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: Jinx Barker

---

Compensate me for the SP count in Learning, and then I am fine with it. If not, then "they" the noobs, should do the same thing I was when I started.

---

Is your argument really 'don't make this game better, because it was bad when I started, and newbies should suffer too'?

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

just give everyone +11 (sic)(Maybe +10)(sic) to all attributes and let us redistribute our SP from learning to other things. everybody wins.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: Hitme Harder

---

Its the best change to eve that could possibly be done.
Not just learning skills though, attributes as well.

No attributes, no learning skills, no attribute enhancing implants. All they do is hurt longterm health of the game.

---

Umm and people have been here since the begining, when a game is dying the long time players get out first, i've seen it in many mmo's over the last 8 years, always the same, they see its not progressing and they leave. All the anti learner skills people want is an easy game, no thought required. You may not have noticed but every mmo game has attributes, tell wow to abolish attributes and buffs cos you got killed and see what reaction you get. Your idea would have everyone the same, umm i know lets all be Caldari Achura then all will be equal.
This is a sandbox universe that requires differences in characters at all levels, it is not a defined role play with goals.

---

Originally by: Tempest Kane

---

I had to see about 4-5 months of learning skills go by to get to that point. And you want to allow people to just not do that anymore just coz time has passed?

---

Originally by: Tempest Kane

---

I had to invest alot of time to get to that point. I had to see about 4-5 months of learning skills go by to get to that point. And you want to allow people to just not do that anymore just coz time has passed?
[...]
If i want that ill play a blizzard game.

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

Dude. what ever.
This is the character i post on the forums with.
My build? lol. really you are reaching now.
For a supposed new player who just started in december you seem to have way more belief in your knowledge than any person i have ever met in game. Why not post with your real main. Until then stfu troll.
Seriously. My Build...LOL what a paranoid freak you are.
edit: where is the damn ignore forum troll function?

---

Originally by: Guttripper

---

As others have stated, the learning skills are a choice. While I decided to spend my time advancing a certain set of skills for a long term benefit, other pilots were training skills that (most likely) benefited them once the skill was complete. I continued to advance my learning and gained nothing at the moment while these same pilots were getting their "instant benefits". Now I can quickly catch-up and surpass these same pilots in skills and they want to be my equal with instant +10 attributes, etc. Were these same pilots worried that I was gaining no benefits ~grinding~ away at the learning tree while they were flying better ships and accumulating better goods? While Eve is a game, like anything else in life - real or virtual, if you want something, then you have to work for it. I worked my time through the learning skill tree - that was my choice. Now I want to collect my rewards.

---

Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn

---

Imagine a 2 month newbie. CCP comes out and say "hi guys, guess what we are giving you free learnings NOW". The newbie : "well, I just trained two month for nothing.".!

---

Originally by: Tempest Kane

---

I had to invest alot of time to get to that point. I had to see about 4-5 months of learning skills go by to get to that point. And you want to allow people to just not do that anymore just coz time has passed?

Its an insult to the players who have allready invested the time into them core skills for the system to change. Im dead against it. Your messing with the core values of eve online, even if they are flawed its too late. You should have though about this 5 years ago. You cant go around messing about with this stuff now.

---

Originally by: DogSlime

---

My character is only a few months old, and I spent the first few weeks training learning skills. All the basics are now L5, and the others are L4 (with the excpeption of socaial - haven't done much with social yet).

Even though this time is already "spent" for me, I agree with the OP that removing learning skills would make it easier on new players. Waiting for ages while learning skills to train is boring. If the first few weeks of a game are really boring, there is less likelihood that people will stay with the game.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Originally by: George Techeye

---

Dude. what ever.
This is the character i post on the forums with.
My build? lol. really you are reaching now.
For a supposed new player who just started in december you seem to have way more belief in your knowledge than any person i have ever met in game. Why not post with your real main. Until then stfu troll.
Seriously. My Build...LOL what a paranoid freak you are.
edit: where is the damn ignore forum troll function?

---

Umm i don't know your build, u want me to make a screenie and show you my 3, if you look you will find all 3 names mentioned in a post i made a week or so ago, i'm not hiding , its me BB, hennep and hennep ashsa, and well i do know a lot because i can read, assimilate information and form a view, i know little but what is on this site, which quite frankly tells you about every aspect of the game. That said i would never say i know everything about a game or even dare to suggest changes until i had progressed and gained a standing in game, so in maybe 18 months or two years i will give some input as i will know from personal experience and not just what is in the forum and what CCP tells us. Being here for a short time does not mean i cannot understand the game and its endless possibilities that are solely down to me to chose.

Why do you get so upset about me pointing out your posting with an alt, that alone has a bearing on ²our credability, oh and notice my alts aren't Caldari, they are Minatar and Gallente.
Maybe if you had read How does skill training work? you would not have embarassed yourself.
Flame away, call me troll and whatever, u never did reply to the posts i made as to why i thought it was a bad idea either, you sir are the troll.

---

Originally by: Bohoba

---

thats because of 5 pages of wine and no suggetions :)

---

Originally by: Zero Target

---

Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn

---

Imagine a 2 month newbie. CCP comes out and say "hi guys, guess what we are giving you free learnings NOW". The newbie : "well, I just trained two month for nothing.".!

---

Sort of like how they nerfed the spaceship command skills so you only need Frigate IV to start training Cruisers instead of Frigate V etc.?

Sure it sucked if you spent all the time training Frigate V, Cruiser V, Battleship V etc. but does anyone regret that change?

---

Originally by: Hitme Harder

---

When people at work ask me about eve, and say that they are interested in getting into it, I tell them to create an account, let me help them create their characters, and to check back in with me after 2 months.

I am doing CCP a benefit by doing this. Because if I didn't, they'd eventually decide to go through the learning skill grind, and quit out of boredom.

I am not joking. This is not a parable.

---

Originally by: Avon

---

Originally by: Hitme Harder

---

When people at work ask me about eve, and say that they are interested in getting into it, I tell them to create an account, let me help them create their characters, and to check back in with me after 2 months.

I am doing CCP a benefit by doing this. Because if I didn't, they'd eventually decide to go through the learning skill grind, and quit out of boredom.

I am not joking. This is not a parable.

---

You are going to get banned for account sharing if that isn't a parable.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Umm i had a look, you are a Caldari Achura, School of Applied Knowledge of nearly 3 months standing, says it all doesn't it.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

You want more people in eve, well i'm afraid that the hardware has a finite capacity, it may increase with new hardware in the pipeline but i think they would rather have people in the game who understand it no matter how disruptive (goonies) they are than to pander to people who can't think about the choices they make.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

The reason they are different is to give different people choices, why do you think there are so many Caldari Achura, because people don't have any imagination, flexability or basic criticial thinking skills.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

You may not have noticed but every mmo game has attributes, tell wow to abolish attributes and buffs cos you got killed and see what reaction you get.

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

No because from my understanding they then gave you tech II ships so it was useful time spent and gave an advantage to those that had done it

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

sorry george, the link was to show you that in the first couple of lines it tells you that you cannot skill up two characters on the same time on the same account, yes i'm being bloody minded telling you that you should have done some basic research about the game even though you had been playing for months, but just because you have played upto 6>7 million SP doesn't mean that you actually understand it and the concepts behind it.

As i said before as everyone has chosen to learn learning skills at different times and rates so it cannot be compensated for fairly.

Eve is Unique, its not ment to be even, no mmo is, the older player always has an advantage, lets keep it that way, stop trying to change the game into something you want, if people are stupid enough to just learn learning skills in the first few months the game is much better off without them as they have no intelligence, its that simple.

---

Originally by: Chith

---

I forget who was commenting, but at the end of the tourney the stereotypical 'if you could change eve, how would you' question came up. Best response I've ever heard: remove all learning skills. We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game. I personally know a few folks who got burned out merely because of that. I agree, it's tremendously lame.

If there were any kind of sweeping change to the game that I would support, it would be to remove these skills. Whatever system is employed to do this is fine -- personally I wouldn't care if they just took the 2.5mil sp i have in learning away. A change like this would weaken the hegemony of high-sp players and do a lot for the fostering of new players, benefiting everyone.

I don't doubt that this has been posted before. Maybe this time it can get some traction and be included with the next patch (the one after march 11th).

---

Originally by: Rawr Cristina

---

Training learning skills right away is only really something you should do if you're building up an Alt. Telling a new player to train Learning + Advanced learning to 4 straight away isn't exactly going to get them to like the game...

I wouldn't mind seeing more 'base' Learning skills on character creation though. Say level 2-3 in every area to give new players at least a little boost.

To remove learning skills entirely however would be unfair on the people who've just trained them. People who calculated how long it would take for that Logic level 5 to pay off, only for it to be removed completely long before that happened

There really isn't a problem other than what we're telling newer players to do.

---

Originally by: Zero Target

---

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

Umm i had a look, you are a Caldari Achura, School of Applied Knowledge of nearly 3 months standing, says it all doesn't it.

---

Originally by: Zero Target

---

Nice ad hominem.

---

yeah,i thought it was a good dig into his credability and mindset as i honestly think that he hasn't thought it out within the concept of what eve is

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

You want more people in eve, well i'm afraid that the hardware has a finite capacity, it may increase with new hardware in the pipeline but i think they would rather have people in the game who understand it no matter how disruptive (goonies) they are than to pander to people who can't think about the choices they make.

---

Originally by: Zero Target

---

You think CCP wants LESS revenue, do you?

---

No but i am aware of the limitations that eve has relating to hardware, the more players the more lag the more ****ed of people leaving because of lag, its in a earlier post in this thread

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

The reason they are different is to give different people choices, why do you think there are so many Caldari Achura, because people don't have any imagination, flexability or basic criticial thinking skills.

---

Originally by: Zero Target

---

If new players didn't have critical thinking skills, they wouldn't be choosing Caldari Achura to minimize their training time.

---

no they are just the best balanced, no real gameplay if everyone choses the Master race is there, for pew-pew Mini brute are superior, gallente are better industrialists, they just require less thought as ... well they are balanced!

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

You may not have noticed but every mmo game has attributes, tell wow to abolish attributes and buffs cos you got killed and see what reaction you get.

---

Originally by: Zero Target

---

Blizzard makes dramatic changes to WoW all the time, aimed at both veterans and new players (see the recent huge XP nerfs for leveling) and they keep adding millions of subscribers. Of course this is only relevant if you think CCP wants to make money, which you don't seem to.

---

wow is a victim of its own success and limitations is it not, how many people on a wow server? how many people on eve, one is chalk the other is cheese. Infrastructure wise again they are different, i'm sure CCP have differing goals to Blizzard, if they wanted a thousand servers they would have devoloped a different game.

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

---

No because from my understanding they then gave you tech II ships so it was useful time spent and gave an advantage to those that had done it

---

Originally by: Zero Target

---

So do dreadnought pilots feel getting access to a T2 frigate is adequate compensation for spending 2 weeks training Frigates V before the nerf?

---

oh so lvl 5 command skills only gave you frigates and nothing else, thats what you implying, all i'm saying those that had lvl 5 had an instant new item as all tech 11 stuff requires lvl5 to progress, others had to skill up to get it so by having it you got a boost which countered the nerf, but as i don't know timescale i suspect that the nerf lasted longer than the boost advantage from your reaction.

Originally by: Zero Target

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It's clear from your posts you're a veteran player who wants to preserve his huge SP lead over new players, which is completely understandable - so why not just admit it? Your arguments to the contrary aren't doing you any favours.

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Originally by: Tarron Sarek

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Yes, let's start The Pursuit of a Mythical Audience for some really newbie friendly EVE experience.
As there already are good examples there's nothing to fear.

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Originally by: Brainless Bimbo

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lol, you still don't get it do you, can you post where CCP said learning was a mistake, go on i dare you.

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Originally by: Saffin

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Anyone that already has the skils has lost nothing as they have had the benefit of them, they have lost there advantage going forward but have had the advantage for a while not lost out completely.

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Originally by: Val Auroris

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Learning Skills Are A Illogical Waste of Time

I've been playing for 6 months and i have 8m sp. My learning skills are at 4/4.

I've got friends who just started the game, and it doesn't make sense to ask them to focus on learning skills (at least to lvl 3 )for the first 2-3 weeks while learning nothing new in between.

I read some replies saying that "well, people have a choice not to up their learning skills". Com'on, if you guys were to make a alt for the purpose of playing more than 6 months, the first skills you'll be training are learning skills. A player absolutely has to train them in order to save time.

My suggestion is to remove AT LEAST the advanced learning skills, and increase everyone's attributes by 5. Since this game has diminishing returns anyways, high sp players should not complain about something that eases the burden of new players interested about the game.


On a side note: WHERE IS MY FACE CCP!! ITs BEEN 6 months!!

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Originally by: Hippy Dave

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Where this logic utterly fails is that when those same players hit the point where they are say looking to get into T2 ships they will get that same feeling of utter despair when their lvl5 skills are taking weeks to complete rather than just a week.

If they removed learning skills it would probably take me like 10 days to train this and thats just one skill out of many.
If they removed them i would actually consider quitting cause i know how long it would take to train some of my long term goal skills.

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