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Triath Lon
Keepers of Balance Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.03.10 21:54:00 -
[31]
it's that "flava of teh month" thing.
Used to be Gallente and Demps > all, now demps are nurfed into oblivion. Now it's Amarr and TDs. Comes and goes. Adapt to it. ________
Arazu - when you, eventually, lock me - you'll shoot me. Pilgrim - you can lock me, just can't hit me. Falcon - if i'm lucky... |
Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 21:57:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 22:05:54
Originally by: Grytok So whats the Problem with Tracking Disruptors affecting your FallOff really? They do affect the FallOff on Blasters aswell (yes, Blasters do need them FallOff like Autocannons!).
You are wrong... Gallente will not be affected in the same way like minmatar because gallente always fight in close range if they are fitted with blaster. They have huge DPS and can just melt anything away... deimos for example. But the vagabond isnt the DPS-monster... it has to maintain range or it will be destroyed very quickly. So, barrage ammunition with falloff modifier and the bonus of the ship are total neccessary to make it usefull. If tracking disruptor really affect falloff in the next patch then the vagabond-pilot will not have a countermodule. He cant fit a active tank or huge dps to compensate and fight in close range like the deimos.
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Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:03:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: Darth inFECT
Originally by: Butzewutze
What do u think?
1. Stop posting. Forever. 2. Can i have your stuff? 3. Stop posting. Forever.
To the op please heed the above words of wisdom. Put some more gripe on your dummy then STFU.
I guess you are in the wrong thread... you should go there -> Clicky
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:07:00 -
[34]
This debate is pointless, because the so-called counter to optimal disruption doesn't really exist.
Let's say you have a -60% modifier to optimal in a tracking disruptor. The target ship, with 4 tracking computers loader with optimal scripts, will get maybe 40-45% additionnal optimal. Now, apply the -60% modifier, and you get 145/(1-0.6)=58%
Great, with 4 of the so-called "counter modules", all you get is one enemy damage mod doing only two-thirds of it's full effect. God help you if you have 2 or 3 TD on you. ------------------------------------------
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Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Shadowsword This debate is pointless, because the so-called counter to optimal disruption doesn't really exist.
Let's say you have a -60% modifier to optimal in a tracking disruptor. The target ship, with 4 tracking computers loader with optimal scripts, will get maybe 40-45% additionnal optimal. Now, apply the -60% modifier, and you get 145/(1-0.6)=58%
Great, with 4 of the so-called "counter modules", all you get is one enemy damage mod doing only two-thirds of it's full effect. God help you if you have 2 or 3 TD on you.
Thank you. Its nice to know that there are people out there with brain that are able to communicate above the "stfu pwnz0r l33tz" level. :)
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:14:00 -
[36]
All other guns are effected by tracking disruptors, they were useless before scripts, and after not only pretty useless, but totally useless against minmatar weapons that have most of thier range in their falloff. Now they affect falloff and optimal they affect Minmatar ships EQUALLY as much as other turret ships.
Maybe someone might actually use one occasionally then. As long as they're not going to be facing someone with drones or missiles as their primary damage type.
If we stop seeing people field minmatar gunboats we will know why, I'm going to be that they are still used just as much.
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L70Rogue
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:16:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Shadowsword This debate is pointless, because the so-called counter to optimal disruption doesn't really exist.
Let's say you have a -60% modifier to optimal in a tracking disruptor. The target ship, with 4 tracking computers loader with optimal scripts, will get maybe 40-45% additionnal optimal. Now, apply the -60% modifier, and you get 145/(1-0.6)=58%
Great, with 4 of the so-called "counter modules", all you get is one enemy damage mod doing only two-thirds of it's full effect. God help you if you have 2 or 3 TD on you.
Projectile Ambit Extension
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Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zarin Minmatar ships EQUALLY as much as other turret ships.
Do u read? You are wrong... on every other ship u can fit a tracking enhancer or a tracking computer and so u have a counter, if it will be effective or not. But against a falloff-tracking disruptor there is "NO COUNTER"! Or did u see a module affecting falloff in the positive way lately?
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:17:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zarin All other guns are effected by tracking disruptors, they were useless before scripts, and after not only pretty useless, but totally useless against minmatar weapons that have most of thier range in their falloff. Now they affect falloff and optimal they affect Minmatar ships EQUALLY as much as other turret ships.
Maybe someone might actually use one occasionally then. As long as they're not going to be facing someone with drones or missiles as their primary damage type.
If we stop seeing people field minmatar gunboats we will know why, I'm going to be that they are still used just as much.
They do not affect them "equally". You have TC's and TE's... we don't.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:20:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 22:23:19 Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 22:20:56
Originally by: L70Rogue Projectile Ambit Extension
Yeah... Einstein! There is a rig like i mention allready before... but do you really think that u have to install rigs to counter an ewar module in eve? A rig that cannot be removed intact? And dont u think that a 5 million(15 millions for 3) rig is a bit to expensive to counter a 1 million E.War-Module?
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:37:00 -
[41]
3 Projectile Ambit rigs will still have the Minmatar ship having about 8% less falloff under the effects of a SINGLE UNBONUSED tracking disrptor than a Minmatar ship without any projectile ambit rigs not being TD'd.
Rig counters are not a solution, and they do not work as a solution. Otherwise Amarr players would have to stfu due to the existence of Energy Elutriation Discharge rigs that reduce turret capacitor use. End argument.
Minmatar ships cannot get in close and expect to perform well on average against their racial counterparts. The only exceptions are the Typhoon, Maelstrom, and Hurricane. Getting closer is not a counter to TDs. End argument.
There is no counter to TDs affecting falloff. There is a counter to TDs affecting optimal. TCs/TEs increasing falloff range is not a DPS boost, the raw DPS stays the same. It only changes the effective range.
A Minmatar ship stacking TCs/TEs with falloff on them will never, ever reach the range an Amarr ship can get with Pulses. Pulses also have a higher DPS and work in OPTIMAL (ie 100% DPS). Autocannons have a fair amount lower DPS and work in falloff (ie 50% DPS at falloff). End argument.
Minmatar AND Gallente need a counter method to save their falloff should they so choose to. Any objections to this will come from the Amarrian whine brigade that plague these forums, and will come without any argumentation other than 'no'.
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Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:40:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 22:43:13 I really would like to know what the developer had in mind with that. Maybe i see something wrong or i cant see the big picture as a whole thing. So a developer answering some questions would be nice. I have asked for the same thing in the "boost-patch deployment"-thread but still no answer, but at least we know that female avatars-corpses still look like male-corpses after the patch now.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:43:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar is getting a pretty serious nerf with the falloff modifier going on tracking disruptors.
Minmatar pilots are also getting a pretty nice boost with the 10% reduction to base Explosive resist on shields, and 10% reduction to EM Armor resists. Our best T2 ammo, Barrage, will be more effective against shields, and our best damage ammo, EMP, will be more effective against armor.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. -- |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Butzewutze
Yeah okay, but then minmatar had nothing as advantage. They wouldnt be nano'ed then, they wouldnt have the most firepower nor the best tank... why should someone play minmatar then?
Minmatar dont have speed? Minmatar dont have capless weapons? Minmatar dont have agility? Minmatar dont have damage type choice? Minmatar dont have versitility?
You fail. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:09:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Shadowsword This debate is pointless, because the so-called counter to optimal disruption doesn't really exist.
Let's say you have a -60% modifier to optimal in a tracking disruptor. The target ship, with 4 tracking computers loader with optimal scripts, will get maybe 40-45% additionnal optimal. Now, apply the -60% modifier, and you get 145/(1-0.6)=58%
Great, with 4 of the so-called "counter modules", all you get is one enemy damage mod doing only two-thirds of it's full effect. God help you if you have 2 or 3 TD on you.
This is EXACTLY the point. The defense against TDs are as worthless as ECCM. Also no counters against 40km webs either nor TPs.
The REAL reason why people want this is because this is a pure damage boost that doesnt stack with gyros. It wont happen because its would be stupidly imbalanced. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Minmatar dont have speed? Minmatar dont have capless weapons? Minmatar dont have agility? Minmatar dont have damage type choice? Minmatar dont have versitility?
You fail.
The post was supposing that they removed "nano" ships from the game.
Also, Caldari have better agility, damage type selecction, and capless weapons.
The "versatility" that you claim Minmatar have isn't so much "versatility" as being forced to run from anything even remotely interesting.
You will note the strong lack of performant Minnie ships in the Alliance tournament, and the very strong Amarr showing.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:11:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
This is EXACTLY the point. The defense against TDs are as worthless as ECCM. Also no counters against 40km webs either nor TPs.
The REAL reason why people want this is because this is a pure damage boost that doesnt stack with gyros. It wont happen because its would be stupidly imbalanced.
The real reason that I want it is because everyone and their puppy dog will be flying with unbonused TD's...
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Linnth
Amarr Darkill Corp
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:12:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Linnth on 10/03/2008 23:13:09
Originally by: Butzewutze Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 22:39:06 Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 19:43:01 I think this is a very bad decision because it will be a huge Minmatar-nerf and... Greetz
What??? A Minmatar nerf? Could it be possible? Well, welcome to the Amarr club. Finally someone else gets nerfed. -------------------
Amarr: Getting screwed since 2005! |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:13:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You will note the strong lack of performant Minnie ships in the Alliance tournament, and the very strong Amarr showing.
-Liang
They also dont use interdictors nor scramblers in the tournament, dear.
...and yeah Id have no problem in nerfing caldari. Its the most popular race for a reason. Better nerf them then to boost minmatar with imbalanced changes. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:14:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The real reason that I want it is because everyone and their puppy dog will be flying with unbonused TD's...
-Liang
No thats not what you want. If that is what youve wanted youd attack the problem at its root! Youd nerf TDs across the board so they are useless on unbonused ships (just like ECM) and then boost it on the amarr ew ships accordingly to maintain their effect. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:15:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer They also dont use interdictors nor scramblers in the tournament, dear.
...and yeah Id have no problem in nerfing caldari. Its the most popular race for a reason. Better nerf them then to boost minmatar with imbalanced changes.
Yeah, lets nerf Caldari, Minmatar, and Gallente at the same time we give Amarr 220km, 700 DPS pulse snipers.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:16:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer They also dont use interdictors nor scramblers in the tournament, dear.
...and yeah Id have no problem in nerfing caldari. Its the most popular race for a reason. Better nerf them then to boost minmatar with imbalanced changes.
Yeah, lets nerf Caldari, Minmatar, and Gallente at the same time we give Amarr 220km, 700 DPS pulse snipers.
-Liang
But youre the one that claimed caldari being better at everything then minmatar. I find minmatar balanced. Why not nerf cladari? Its obviously a popular race for a reason. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
No thats not what you want. If that is what youve wanted youd attack the problem at its root! Youd nerf TDs across the board so they are useless on unbonused ships (just like ECM) and then boost it on the amarr ew ships accordingly to maintain their effect.
I have no objection to that happening, outside of the standard objection I have to nerfing all ewar (I'm a huge ewar hoe).
No, I really do have the objection that even one unbonused TD will completely eliminate the ship from the fight.
And yes, the other weapon types do have counters in the form of TC's and TE's.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:18:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But youre the one that claimed caldari being better at everything then minmatar. I find minmatar balanced. Why not nerf cladari? Its obviously a popular race for a reason.
The *ONLY* thing that Caldari are not as good at is raw speed. Also, I like how you sidestepped the 700 DPS Apoc at 220km.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:20:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I have no objection to that happening, outside of the standard objection I have to nerfing all ewar (I'm a huge ewar hoe).
Good then we agree.
ps. *shows off side stepping skills* -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:22:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 23:25:07
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Butzewutze
Yeah okay, but then minmatar had nothing as advantage. They wouldnt be nano'ed then, they wouldnt have the most firepower nor the best tank... why should someone play minmatar then?
Minmatar dont have speed? Minmatar dont have capless weapons? Minmatar dont have agility? Minmatar dont have damage type choice? Minmatar dont have versitility?
You fail.
1. Minmatar have speed and can dictate range... but cant hit from there with added falloff-disruptor.
2. Minmatar have capless weapons that dont hit with a single falloff-disruptor.
3. Minmatar have useless agility without hitting something when falloff-disrupted.
4. Minmatar can choose damage-type without hitting something when affected by falloff-disruptor.
5. Minmatar have versatility wich means "crappy everything" "crappy shield tank" or "crappy armor tank" except the Maelstrom and Cyclone/sleipnir wich are very good shieldtanks tbh. but for the vagabond or (fleet)stabber there is only range as an advantage.
So, i think u fail! Tracking disruptor will be the best ewar module if u have one midslot to spare. Example:
Balmer Tracking disruptor(on a frig without bonus):
Tracking disruption script: - 50% tracking
Optimal Disruption script: - 50% optimal
Falloff Disruption script: - 50% falloff(????) -> that means a single frig with a tracking disruptor can successfully disable a vagabond from 72 KM distance without any chance for the vaga to counter it or it has to get into webrange wich means -> death.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:26:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Butzewutze
1. Minmatar have speed and can dictate range... but cant hit from there with added falloff-disruptor.
2. Minmatar have capless weapons that dont hit with a single falloff-disruptor.
3. Minmatar have useless agility without hitting something when falloff-disrupted.
4. Minmatar can choose damage-type without hitting something when affected by falloff-disruptor.
5. Minmatar have versatility wich means "crappy everything" "crappy shield tank" or "crappy armor tank" except the Maelstrom and Cyclone/sleipnir wich are very good shieldtanks tbh. but for the vagabond or (fleet)stabber there is only range as an advantage.
So, i think u fail! Tracking disruptor will be the best ewar module if u have one midslot to spare. Example:
Balmer Tracking disruptor(on a frig without bonus):
Tracking disruption script: - 50% tracking Optimal Disruption script: - 50% optimal Falloff Disruption script: - 50% falloff(????) -> that means a single frig with a tracking disruptor can successfully disable a vagabond from 72 KM distance without any chance for the vaga to counter it or it has to get into webrange wich means -> death.
And as many of us said a thousand times: Solve this problem at the core.
The problem is everyone with spare mid MIGHT fit a TD there = not good.
Solution: Nerf TDs by large amount but boost the bonus on bonusd ships by large amount to keep it same.
Result: Only amarr EW ships kill turret ships = everything in order. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Butzewutze
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:32:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 23:32:38 i forgot something:
Best named ECM cap use: 1.4 cps Best named Sensor Dampener: 1.8 cps Best named Tracking disruptor: 0.9 cps
It will be the best effective ECM for 1 mid slot plus with the lowest cap usage. So this is what u called balance?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:34:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Butzewutze Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 23:32:38 i forgot something:
Best named ECM cap use: 1.4 cps Best named Sensor Dampener: 1.8 cps Best named Tracking disruptor: 0.9 cps
It will be the best effective ECM for 1 mid slot plus with the lowest cap usage. So this is what u called balance?
Did you read what I wrote above? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:35:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Butzewutze Edited by: Butzewutze on 10/03/2008 23:32:38 i forgot something:
Best named ECM cap use: 1.4 cps Best named Sensor Dampener: 1.8 cps Best named Tracking disruptor: 0.9 cps
It will be the best effective ECM for 1 mid slot plus with the lowest cap usage. So this is what u called balance?
No. ECM is way better.. at least on a bonused ship.
Most effective unbonused ECM, yes.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
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