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Sosus Red
Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.14 23:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sephra Star Edited by: Sephra Star on 14/03/2008 22:45:50
Thats not lowering the standards. That dropping it completely.
Hate Groups Are Infiltrating the Military, Group Asserts
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/07/washington/07recruit.html?th&
"We've got Aryan Nations graffiti in Baghdad," the group quoted a Defense Department investigator as saying in a report to be posted today on its Web site, www.splcenter.org. "That's a problem."
Do you realize when these people get discharged from the military they will be welcomed into the ranks of our police force at home?
I served in the military too. It was not like this.
Im sorry to burst your bubble...but getting on the police force is no easy task. I buddy of mine , a great guy and ex military, tried to get on the LAPD and did not pass. Its not automatic.
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.03.15 01:37:00 -
[32]
Please forward any political bias complaints to Reuters. I'm sure they give a damn.
Anyway... yeah, it was a damn stupid thing to do. The result would have been the same anywhere.
EVE CCG Trinity Booster
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.03.15 04:19:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sosus Red I have a concealed fire arm permit and I've never shot anyone. I was however a victim of a violent crime. The fact is, the police can be everywhere all the time and cant protect everyone. The police are usually reactionary. imo they dont prevent anything, they just clean up the mess. people need to protect themselves.
I think the unfortunate fact is that the US is a lot more violent place than western europe, just my opinion. We have gansters and idiots who think theyre gangsters, or just people who listen to to much hip hop, and some gang initiations require the idiots to commit crimes just to get into a gang.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect yourself or your family, and your an idiot if you think you can depend on the police to protect you.
... and then there is you.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Arron S
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.03.15 08:02:00 -
[34]
Someone posted something about a swiss conscript shooting a few people at random with his Assault rifle they issued to him a few months ago.
Also the French Foreign Legion does not allow convicted criminals in anymore. They do background checks.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.03.15 11:46:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Reiisha on 15/03/2008 11:46:17
Originally by: Magnus Nordir
Originally by: mentalmarsupial lol I still find it funny when people actually believe that "an armed society is a safe society" crap. No matter how you spin it the facts point the other way. IMO if you want / need a gun and are competent then file for a licence but I dont think guns are needed for anything other than shoots / conservation etc... I mean if someone has a gun they will probably shoot first and all you can do is provide consequences not actual protection (alike concord). hey guess im just a country bumpkin
In a society where people can't get guns legally, by definition, only criminals (and the potentially oppressive law enforcement) will have them, leaving the law-abiding citizens defenceless. How the **** can you claim such a society is safer than one in which everyone is armed? I say make a law that makes in mandatory to carry a firearm for everyone above the age of 16 and of sound mental health (with appropriate safety training included, naturally).
I suggest you look at the death rates in crimes, mister. It's 1500% higher in the US than in any European country, from the last numbers i saw.
I'd rather live in a country where i get robbed and wake up the following morning, than a country where i get robbed and put 6 feet under the next day.
EVE History Wiki
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Mozqito
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 12:06:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Sosus Red I think your friend is lying...his superior officer cant just demote him in a day, he would have had to go through an article 15 hearing which takes a bit longer than a day.
I'm fairly sure Norwegian law differ quite a bit from American, albeit I do find it strange that they would allow this kind of behaviour.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 12:12:00 -
[37]
Man goes crazy with gun, shot dead by police. Sounds like a 100% clean and successful day for the German police.
It does make me glad that 99.9% of your average nutters aren't able to get hold of guns, though. For every one crazy soldier there must be 100 crazy non-soldiers with no guns to be a crazy person with. ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
Kirjava
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 12:26:00 -
[38]
In the UK we do have knife problems, but that is because nutters want weapons and we just so happen to use knifes to cut meat - so banning knife sales is beyond idiocy.
This is my counter to any arguements that come pointing fingers at British knife problems - we have nutters aswell but at least with a sword/knife you can run away faster than them.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. |
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.03.15 13:41:00 -
[39]
A case in point - a guy I knew at school and later (briefly) in halls went nuts. Did the arson, try to massacre everyone at the fire evacuation point thing. I understand he managed to stab one or two people ineffectively and messed up the suicide. Fail.
Knives suck in most people's hands, and that saved lives that day - his at least, which in his case is the worst kind of punishment.
EVE CCG Trinity Booster
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Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 14:43:00 -
[40]
1) This is a headline because a US Soldier stationed in another country did it. If it had happened because of a native soldier in Somalia or Columbia ... no one would be posting about it as it is so common as to not make the news ... at least not outside those countries. If you had comparable numbers of European Soldiers stationed throughout the world ... incidents like this would be happening with them too - just as they did when you DID have European Soldiers stationed throughout the world.
2) The US Soldier was stationed there - because the US has saved Europe 3 times in the last century during WWI, WWII and The Cold War - all of which cost us a good chunk of money and the lives of a lot of our people. But what do we get? "Get out of my Europe." Sounds like the voice of someone who doesn't mind that people are being slaughtered in Europe ... as long as they're being killed by Europeans like they were for the last several thousand years. Maybe if the Europeans would stop killing each other - we could leave. I for one would prefer to forgo the expense of keeping you people from each other's throats.
3) The comparisons about Europeans and American's seem to be leaving out former Soviet States and the Balkans. Lots of guns there ... lots of killings too.
4) Everybody hates the guys on top. Right now the US is the only remaining Super Power ... and it just galls the heck out of a lot of people that it isn't them. But that's OK ... just wait 50 years and see how you like it when the Chinese are running things ...
5) Only in the last 100 years has much of the USA stopped being a frontier where you very, very much needed a gun to survive. Whereas in Europe all the game preserves were owned by nobles for the last thousand years - here - hunting is something that is commonly practiced in many parts of the country. We have a large nation with vast areas of relatively rural to wild country where killing your own food is still done. As the 20th century has come to a close ... there was a lot less of that than there was at the beginning of it but it is still here - and - still a part of our culture.
6) In Europe - there has always been a strong tendency for the ruling government to try and keep weapons out of the hands of the peasants. Same thing in Japan. This of course was initially done - not for the protection of the peasants - but for the protection of the nobles exploiting them. So - European gun restrictions are NOT founded on a set of moral standards higher than those in the US - they are founded on a system of government that saw the people of the state as being someone to be controlled by the government - rather than being the ones who were IN control of the government. In the US - where the success of our revolt from Britain was due in part to the fact that all the rural parts of the country were occupied by people who owned guns - we have as part of our national heritage the fact that it was those personal fire arms which made us free when Europe was still governed by Kings.
7) Things have changed some over the course of the 20th Century. At the beginning of it ... the Europeans ruled most of the world and the average citizen in the US ... really did need to have that gun over the mantel. But ... culture changes only in reaction to external changes and then ... very slowly. Look how much time the Irish have spent killing each other over the last 100 years.
8) Look at it this way ... at least the guy didn't steal a tank. Here in San Diego ... we had a guy do that once ... crushed a bunch of cars ... finally lost a track trying to cross a freeway divider and a cop was able to get up on the tank where he had to shoot the guy when he wouldn't stop trying to get the tank off of it.
9) Oh ... and as to running away from criminals with a knife ... have you ever tried that? Most criminals who use knives ... don't just point the knife at them - they grab them and press the knife against their flesh. . . . |
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 15:08:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood
9) Oh ... and as to running away from criminals with a knife ... have you ever tried that? Most criminals who use knives ... don't just point the knife at them - they grab them and press the knife against their flesh
Just on this point:
1) I'd rather be unarmed (as I am always liable to be, regardless of law) and in a fight with a knife-wielding maniac than a multiple-handgun wielding maniac.
2) I imagine there are more jittery little thugs who, feeling empowered by that firearm, could bring themselves to pull the trigger and point than there are jittery little thugs who could bring themselves to repeatedly plunge a 3 inch shard of metal into someone's guts while they struggle and scream. Your average chavvy gangster wannabe isn't a cold blooded killer- and its far easier to take it too far with a gun than a knife.
3) My sister got mugged once. Couple of the aforementioned chavvy teenage gangster wannabes confronted her with a knife- one of them punched her, then they grabbed her bag and legged it. If they could have got hold of their daddy's handgun and confronted her with that, what would have happened? What if one of them got scared and shot the thing? You can't get startled and accidentally repeatedly stab someone, but you can get startled and accidentally shoot someone very easily. And please note that, once again, there are no circumstances where my sister would likely to have been armed herself, legalised firearms or not.
4) Lets assume that, as in 3, someone is mugged. Lets assume that this were a country with legalised firearms, and both parties were armed. What would have happened? Either it would have unfolded exactly the same anyway, or there would have been a gunfight with potential (and entirely unpredictable) casualties all around. As it is, the thugs got away with a mobile phone (which was insured anyway) and about ú20 in cash. They were later caught by the police.
Knife crime > gun crime, from a victims perspective. ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.03.15 15:09:00 -
[42]
I don't know where you got the impression the media is giving some side special treatment. The British soldiers caught trying to sell ammunition? The French soldiers caught robbing a bank? None of that rings a bell? The news media reports what happens as it happens, it does not exhibit the kind of bias you suggest.
As for the rest, yeah, that's what happens when some people open Pandora's Box and others keep theirs shut. I make no value judgements there - life is different depending what choice your ancestors made, that's all.
EVE CCG Trinity Booster
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Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 15:57:00 -
[43]
Patch,
1) If you were confronted by someone with a gun - would you be more or less likely to resist them?
2) If you, a non-criminal, tried to resist a criminal with a knife - who is going to have the advantage?
3) In none of the cases above did anyone successfully just run away.
4) Mostly ... if you are attacked by a criminal ... you are in trouble whether they have a gun or a knife. The real problem - is criminals. Guns don't create criminals any more than knives do. Drugs, poverty and various other social/personal issues create criminals.
5) For the US ... just getting rid of all the guns - isn't a consideration. There are already so many millions of guns in the US no amount of legislation is going to get rid of them all. It's like this - cigarette's kill vastly more people than guns - yet we don't have laws to get rid of them. Cars kill vastly more people than guns - yet we abandoned the 55mph speed limit. The US tried during Prohibition to just get rid of alcohol ... and achieved the creation of large powerful crime lords. The US has tried to combat Drugs - and failed. In Europe and Japan - it was a lot easier to pass gun legislation - for the historical reasons I cited. Private Citizens simply didn't have that many in the first place. Over here - it just isn't going to happen. So - preferring that criminals not have guns in the US is just a non starter. Not going to happen. And ... as I said - the real problem isn't guns - the real problem is criminals.
6) As to offering specific examples ... I know a guy who avoided being car jacked simply by reaching under his seat. The car jacker approaching him saw him do that - and turned away. Merely the threat of an honest citizen having a gun (which he actually didn't have) was enough to deter the attack.
7) Now ... as to towns where it is in fact mandatory to own a gun - and they DO exist here in the US - there is no crime. Everyone is armed - and everyone knows it. People are in fact very polite to each other. Contrast that to your gang ridden cities. There you have gangs that slaughter each other. It is already illegal for them to have automatic weapons - and yet they do. The difference is that in those small towns where everyone is required to own a gun - the people aren't criminals - whereas the people in the gangs are. And - don't try and tell me that there are no criminals in Europe who use guns. At one point in time - the Police in England were unarmed. That's not true any more - now is it? They are armed now - and they are armed for a reason. That reason being all the criminals who now have guns.
8) As to nuts with guns ... how about the Ghost Riders in Germany? People who intentionally drive down the wrong lane on the autobahns? How about the nuts who have intentionally driven their cars into crowds? During the Vietnam War, the US suffered 58,000 dead. Every single year that war went on we had over 50,000 people killed on our highways. Every - Single - Year. The only time the death toll dipped was when we had the 55 mph speed limit. Even then - it was 45,000 people killed by cars every year. And - we aren't any different in that regard to anywhere else. How about all the drunk drivers and all the people they kill? The point being - that if someone is going to go kill a bunch of people whether they're stupid or a sociopath ... there's plenty of ways to do that that don't require a gun.
9) If there was a way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals ... sure ... that would be great. But there isn't, not in the US. It would be nice to keep knives and automobiles out of their hands too.
So - what's the point of preferring that criminals don't have guns? As long as I'm going to wish for things that can't come true - I'd wish there weren't any criminals.
. . . |
Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 16:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy I don't know where you got the impression the media is giving some side special treatment. The British soldiers caught trying to sell ammunition? The French soldiers caught robbing a bank? None of that rings a bell? The news media reports what happens as it happens, it does not exhibit the kind of bias you suggest.
As for the rest, yeah, that's what happens when some people open Pandora's Box and others keep theirs shut. I make no value judgements there - life is different depending what choice your ancestors made, that's all.
Actually ... it depends on whose media you are talking about. No the incidents with the French and British soldiers don't ring a bell as - we don't hear about that over here. But our media is quick to jump on some incident involving US Soldiers - and - our media ... such as CNN ... is heard world wide.
As to our history being a matter of choice ... that is absurd. Our ancestors no more chose the environment they were going to live in than we do. You are born into a certain situation in life - and you have to cope with it - whatever it is. Choice isn't an issue.
The Settlers in the New World didn't have a choice about having fire arms. They had fire arms to hunt with - or the didn't eat. They had fire arms to defend themselves or people would kill them.
The Peasants of the Old World didn't have a choice about having fire arms. The nobles didn't want them to have any - so they nobles didn't let them get any.
There wasn't any choosing to open Pandora's Box or not. There were simply the FACTS of history as it evolved.
Much of the third world is awash in weapons manufactured by both sides in the cold war. Those weapons are there - not because they exist - they are there because people want them for their own reasons. Mostly because the tribe on the other side of the river hates them as much as they hate the tribe on the other side of the river and whoever gets the most guns is going to own BOTH sides of the river.
These people didn't sit down one day and CHOOSE to hate each other. They've hated each other for centuries. They hate each other because they were born into a situation where hating each other was the norm.
The problem isn't guns. The problem is that they hate each other.
Now ... none of that means that people can't choose to try and change their circumstances but situations that have evolved over a long period of time take a long period of time to change.
Here ... the thing that matters - isn't whether you've got access to guns or not. The thing that matters is whether or not you want to kill people.
Most of the legal gun owners in the US - never kill anyone with them. They don't kill anyone because they aren't criminals and they don't hate their neighbors across the river.
Look at all the killing that's been done with Guns in Europe in Ireland, the Balkans and the former Soviet States.
Did those people CHOOSE to be born into a situation where their neighbors would come over and kill them?
What kind of gun laws do they have there? If people are going to be killing each other because of their religion or their ethnic back ground - they're going to do it whether they've got guns or not. In Rwanda they didn't have as many guns as they had machete's so ... they spent more time chopping than shooting. Their victims were just as dead.
Do you or did your ancestors have any choice at all? Yes ... you do and they did have some choice. You can choose to vote for the laws you think are best - but that doesn't mean that you'll get your way - and - you probably have a lot more choice than your ancestors did - as there are no peasants that got to vote. About the time they got to vote - they stopped being peasants ...
Some of your European Ancestors - may have chosen to come to the New World - where the nobles couldn't tell them they couldn't own a gun - and where they needed to have one to survive. That's what some of mine did.
. . . |
Mozqito
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 16:42:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mozqito on 15/03/2008 16:44:24
Aaron; in a weird sense I think you really managed to touch one very important point there. You make a paragraph about how the US saved Europe (I will not even start that debate, because I believe it to be a matter of second-guessing history) and how Europeans would rather be killing each other than to have peace enforced by a third party.
Firstly; you need to understand that US presence in Europe is a rather delicate issue. Not because we are actually having problems with you guys or dislike americans in particular, but rather because we are right now waivering in our trust towards your government. US policy, as you might understand, is being deeply questioned by the rest of the world - not because we believe you to have evil intents but rather because we feel you are not being honest with the rest of us. Colin Powell standing in the halls of the UN guaranteeing that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction illustrates this pretty well, and as we all know grave consequences followed. For obvious reasons, it's a bit alarming when the only superpower on Earth - historically on the moral higher ground - is beginning to cover its global intentions up. Especially if you're european and feel "left behind" by your supposed brothers.
With regards to your post, I think I would rather have the option of going after my neighbour than being forced into peace by my bigger brother. Add to this that I have begun to question my bigger brother's intentions and there you have it.
Just wanted to add my two cents. I'm in no way anti-american, in fact americans are the most friendly people I've come across in the western world save for the Newfoundlanders. But I am european and of course influenced by the politics surrounding that.
Have a nice day
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.03.15 16:43:00 -
[46]
Circumstances are created through choices. An aggregate thereof, but choices nonetheless. We create the reality we inhabit every day.
EVE CCG Trinity Booster
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Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:18:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cmdr Sy Circumstances are created through choices. An aggregate thereof, but choices nonetheless. We create the reality we inhabit every day.
Yeah ... I said that. But I also pointed out that the amount of choice we truly have is limited by our circumstances - which start with those we are born into WHICH WE HAVE NO CHOICE IN WHAT SO EVER.
Outstanding individuals sometimes change things more than the average person ... but ... mostly ... the average person doesn't change very much.
How much we can change depends on how much power we have and how cognizant we are of the need for change.
Believe me - if those European Peasants could have gotten guns - they would have. But the nobles had to much power over them - until - the French Revolution when the peasants ... stopped being peasants - and turned the old order on its head.
Still ... despite the fact that European Armies became mass conscript armies ... most of the weapons were retained by the armies - and were not in possession of the bulk of the population.
At this point in time - Europe was already settled. Meat came from domesticated animals - not hunting and there were no aboriginal native inhabitants with Warrior Cultures sending their young men out to steal your live stock, kidnap your women and young children ... and OBTW kill you if you got in the way ... as a rite of passage. So ... the average European Farmer - didn't have a need for fire arms the way his New World counterpart did.
Thus, with a culture that didn't include personal weaponry except amongst the nobility, a tradition of mass arms only belonging to the army and a lack of real need for them on a daily basis by the bulk of the population - having a population that was amenable to fire arms restrictions isn't surprising.
The opposite is the case over here.
Yes the settlers in the New World could have chosen to die instead of having fire arms but that was the only alternative available to them - short of going back to Europe.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:21:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 15/03/2008 17:23:55
Originally by: Magnus Nordir
Originally by: mentalmarsupial lol I still find it funny when people actually believe that "an armed society is a safe society" crap. No matter how you spin it the facts point the other way. IMO if you want / need a gun and are competent then file for a licence but I dont think guns are needed for anything other than shoots / conservation etc... I mean if someone has a gun they will probably shoot first and all you can do is provide consequences not actual protection (alike concord). hey guess im just a country bumpkin
In a society where people can't get guns legally, by definition, only criminals (and the potentially oppressive law enforcement) will have them, leaving the law-abiding citizens defenceless. How the **** can you claim such a society is safer than one in which everyone is armed? I say make a law that makes in mandatory to carry a firearm for everyone above the age of 16 and of sound mental health (with appropriate safety training included, naturally).
The law enforcement forces ARE the protection. Wake up, two centuries ago you might have had a point about a government turning oppressive and the need to defend yourself form it, but you're supposed to live in a democracy now...
As for criminals in countries with gun control, there's not that many of them them that carry guns, compared to the US. Do you know why? because they know they won't get shot at by just about anyone, so it's not a game for them at who shoot the other first. And the real bad ones with weapons generally attack banks and money convoys, not the random civilian.
Here's some facts:
http://www.allcountries.org/gun_deaths_by_country.html
Care to explain why there's about 50 times more murders with firearms per 100k people in the US than in england? It's because of a mix of free gun circulation and cowboy mentality. You can't do anything about hte mentality, but you can at least control the guns. ------------------------------------------
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Avon
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:41:00 -
[49]
Someone explain to me how you can use a gun to defend yourself?
You can't, and the whole arguement for legal firearms is flawed because the initial premise is flawed.
Having a gun will not protect you. Shooting first might .. but then who is the defender?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
mentalmarsupial
Blue. Blue Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:48:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood Patch,
7) Now ... as to towns where it is in fact mandatory to own a gun - and they DO exist here in the US - there is no crime. Everyone is armed - and everyone knows it. People are in fact very polite to each other. Contrast that to your gang ridden cities. There you have gangs that slaughter each other. It is already illegal for them to have automatic weapons - and yet they do. The difference is that in those small towns where everyone is required to own a gun - the people aren't criminals - whereas the people in the gangs are. And - don't try and tell me that there are no criminals in Europe who use guns. At one point in time - the Police in England were unarmed. That's not true any more - now is it? They are armed now - and they are armed for a reason. That reason being all the criminals who now have guns.
Im sorry but that last sentance stripped your aeguement of any credibility. Very few criminals in the UK have access to guns and its only police at airports that carry guns and armed responce teams, you will not see a normal officer carring a gun on patrol or in a car.
I have to agree with alot of patch's points, but I do agree with you views of guns in the US. Its a shame alot of people are forced into carring a gun whos only actual protction is killing another person, but hey i guess its the only real option.
Im not going to comment on the views of some posters on the US as 'world police' as they are probably the people who think that film is serious.
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:49:00 -
[51]
Like I said, a long time ago one lot of people opened Pandora's Box, and another did not. Once born, we adapt to whichever circumstances we find around ourselves. So why should we open that box now and upset successful adaptation?
EVE CCG Trinity Booster
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Crimsonjade
Novus Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:49:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Avon Someone explain to me how you can use a gun to defend yourself?
You can't, and the whole arguement for legal firearms is flawed because the initial premise is flawed.
Having a gun will not protect you. Shooting first might .. but then who is the defender?
1 guy breaks in home wielding a sword of pwnage. kills the unarmed guy munching Cheetos on the couch then goes into the bedroom to find a d00m playing psycho with a single shot 22 target pistol. psycho with gun shoots the guy with the sword of pwnage in the eye, said guy drops sword and screams and collapses and dies
your whole argument is full of **** and manure and the d00m player continues playing d00m and munching cheetos as the guy on the couch is dead and not needing them any longer
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Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:59:00 -
[53]
Mozqito,
Yeah, the desire to be allowed to kill people you don't like without interference from a third party is pretty much universal. We all want to control our own fate. In the post WWII era decolonization period the African's were saying "Let us make our own mistakes ..." in response to the Colonial Powers assertion that they weren't ready for self government. Well ... the Colonial Powers were right ... in that their third world colonies weren't ready for self government - as they knew it. Those colonies were of course more than capable of the type of self government that they've had since then ...
As to honesty from the US Government - you are probably seeing much more of it now than you did in the past.
It's pretty much illegal in the US to conduct covert operations any more. So, all the lying that went on about our involvement with Cuba, Laos, Latin American, Iran and Africa ... to name a few isn't needed any more as our laws won't let us do that any more.
Now ... as to Iraq having weapons of mass destruction ... and our invasion of Iraq ...
1) They did have WMD's. There's no question about that - we found them. The real issue is how many did they have. We have since we went into Iraq found small numbers of chemical weapons, at least one of which was part of a failed IED. The people making the IED may not even have known what it was ... but it was there. Also, there is an Iraqi General who has testified that what ****** did was send his chemical weapons to Syria - and told everyone exactly where they are. There are maps on the internet to the location.
2) WMD manufacturing facilities. There was a report on CNN about the US having termed a Chemical Fertilizer Plant to be a Chemical Weapons Manufacturing plant. Well ... they are the same thing. Any Chemical Factory can produce chemical weapons. Just because it was also capable of manufacturing fertilizer DOES NOT mean it couldn't make chemical weapons as well.
3) ****** buried all kinds of things in the desert. Fighter planes for sure. We've found some of those. Did he bury some chemical weapons out there? We may never know. There are probably all kinds of things buried in the sands of Iraq.
4) ****** did tell some of his nuclear scientists to conceal parts of their equipment.
5) ****** was also lied to by his scientists about how far along they were in creating nuclear weapons - as they didn't want him to kill them - and we were seeing those reports.
6) So - Colin Powell wasn't lying when he said that Iraq had WMD's. He was at worst misinformed himself as to what they had. If ****** didn't know what he had - how could Colin Powell know?
7) When the UN Weapons inspectors first went into Iraq after the first Gulf War the Iraqi's lied to them about what they had and tried to hinder their investigation any way they could. The inspectors still managed to keep finding things. Each time the Iraqis would say something like "Ok ... you got that ... but that's all ... there isn't any more ..." and ... the inspectors would go out and find more. Finally, ****** kicked them out. Now ... maybe ... they really had found at least most of his stuff. The Chief UN Weapons Inspector thought so. But what was the price we would pay if he was wrong? Why should we have believed ****** when he insisted that we had gotten everything after he'd lied to us so many times?
8)So ... blaming the US because it stated something that it really believed ... however accurate or inaccurate those beliefs may have been ... is a bit much. The problem with things like this is - you get some reports that say one thing and some reports that say another. All you can do in the end - is to go with what you think is right.
9) Lastly, the really sad thing here - isn't that the US had to use the existence of WMD's as an excuse to go in and remove ****** ******* from power. The sad thing - is that we didn't do it after the first Gulf War - joined by our European Allies. . . . |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 18:02:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Crimsonjade
Originally by: Avon Someone explain to me how you can use a gun to defend yourself?
You can't, and the whole arguement for legal firearms is flawed because the initial premise is flawed.
Having a gun will not protect you. Shooting first might .. but then who is the defender?
1 guy breaks in home wielding a sword of pwnage. kills the unarmed guy munching Cheetos on the couch then goes into the bedroom to find a d00m playing psycho with a single shot 22 target pistol. psycho with gun shoots the guy with the sword of pwnage in the eye, said guy drops sword and screams and collapses and dies
your whole argument is full of **** and manure and the d00m player continues playing d00m and munching cheetos as the guy on the couch is dead and not needing them any longer
1 guy breaks in home wielding a pistol of pwnage. kills the unarmed guy munching Cheetos on the couch then goes into the bedroom to find a d00m playing psycho with a single shot 22 target pistol. psycho with gun gets shot in the back of the head while he's still concentrating on killing that bull thing with a chainsaw for an arm in level 5.
your whole argument is full of **** and manure and the robber guy plays some d00m and munching cheetos as the guy on the couch is dead and not needing them any longer
Look what I did, isn't it clever?
Aaron dude, I'm not ignoring your posts, I just only have time for snide remarks right now. Proper debate later ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.03.15 18:21:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood The sad thing - is that we didn't do it after the first Gulf War
Not much of a missed opportunity. Look at the place today - that's why they didn't do it. Plus, we got another decade of $20 oil, which trumps everything else.
EVE CCG Trinity Booster
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Aaron Ravenwood
NorVor Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 18:53:00 -
[56]
mentalmarsupial, all I have to go on is the things I've seen on the news. A good while back, before the First Gulf War, I saw a report on London Bobbies begining to carry guns. So ... one of us is misinformed as to the degree to which the police are armed and/or the amount of guns used in crimes in the UK. It may well be less than I thought - but it just might be more than you think too ... Of course ... since the thing I saw was a good long time ago ... maybe they stopped carrying guns and I didn't see that. *shrug*
Avon, if you hear someone breaking into your house, it's called Home Invasion here in the US, and you have a gun, you can get it out and deal with the guy. If he's coming in your house - you are the defender. Whether you tell him you have a gun, fire a warning shot or simply shoot the SOB - you are defending yourself and your loved ones.
Cmdr Sy, your Pandora's Box is a flawed analogy. It implies that a simple choice was made to have something or not to have something - when nothing like that went on. It was not a concious choice by anyone ... it's just how things worked out. As to whether or not you should change your gun laws ... if you're happy with the way things are - why should you?
As to failing to remove Mr. Asterisk after the first Gulf War being a missed opportunity - we will of course never know ... but mostly ... we'd have gone through then what we're going through now - except ... then we had more troops in place ... and could have done a better job of it. As to $20 oil ... the world isn't paying what it is now because of Iraq and ... if we'd gone in then ... we'd have that all sorted now when we could really use another oil exporting nation.
Shadowsword, do you have stats for the robbery & murder rates themselves as opposed to what weapon was used? What really counts - isn't what was used in the robbery or killing - but the fact that there was one. Yeah ... we've got a lot of guns in the US so ... it isn't surprising that when someone wants to kill someone they use a gun. And yeah ... guns are pretty lethal ... so you may well have more fatalities than you would if someone used a knife or a skillet.
Poverty brings crime with it. It's not the only cause but if you do have poor people - you will have crime. And ... the US has always been a nation of immigrants who showed up here with very little but the clothes on their backs. So poverty has always been a problem. Also .... we have had to deal with having a very large slave population integrated into the nations fabric ... which has caused problems that we haven't yet solved ... one of which is persistent poverty among the descendants of those slaves.
As to guns and democracy ... our democracy was created back in the day BECAUSE we all had guns. Asking us to give them all up now ... well ... maybe you're right and we don't need them ... but ... if you are wrong ... and we give them all up ... we won't be getting them back. The FACT that we do all have the right to own weapons pretty much insures that we will keep our freedom.
As to Cowboy Mentality ... I seriously doubt that any of the people who use that term to describe Americans know a damn thing about Cowboy's. Not that most American's know that much about Europeans either. But ... as name calling goes ... being called a Cowboy ... isn't really an insult to us. Most of us are proud of our Cowboy heritage ... what there was of it ... and know better than to take all those western's to seriously ... well ...most of us do anyway ... And ... considering some of the names we have for Europeans ... eh ... I can live with being called a Cowboy. When I was six years old - that's what I wanted to be!
Thing is ... it's probably a lot easier for our mentality to change than to control the guns. As I said - there are so many millions of guns in the US ... getting rid of them is in fact impossible, at least not in my life time.
OK! That's it for me guys! Later! . . . |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.15 20:44:00 -
[57]
Quote: Shadowsword, do you have stats for the robbery & murder rates themselves as opposed to what weapon was used? What really counts - isn't what was used in the robbery or killing - but the fact that there was one. Yeah ... we've got a lot of guns in the US so ... it isn't surprising that when someone wants to kill someone they use a gun. And yeah ... guns are pretty lethal ... so you may well have more fatalities than you would if someone used a knife or a skillet.
No, I don't have those stats, but I doubt you'll see a huge difference in ratio. There's not all that many murders in my country, whatever the weapon used, who has a fairly strict gun control law.
Quote:
As to Cowboy Mentality ... I seriously doubt that any of the people who use that term to describe Americans know a damn thing about Cowboy's. Not that most American's know that much about Europeans either. But ... as name calling goes ... being called a Cowboy ... isn't really an insult to us. Most of us are proud of our Cowboy heritage ... what there was of it ... and know better than to take all those western's to seriously ... well ...most of us do anyway ... And ... considering some of the names we have for Europeans ... eh ... I can live with being called a Cowboy. When I was six years old - that's what I wanted to be!
Oh, I didn't meant it as an insult, but rather refering to their tendancy to settle things with a duel, without resorting to local autorities. Maybe I have a false image of cowboys, but I think there was a lot of corpses with a bullet in the belly at that time. ------------------------------------------
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Sosus Red
Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 21:28:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Sosus Red on 15/03/2008 21:33:18 [Very well said Aaron...
How do you defend yourself with a gun...what a stupid question.
Whats up with eurpeans thinking all americans are cowboys?
Let me give you a brief description of a crime which happened to me.
I was @ a club, just got done watching a DJ set by Oakenfold. It was about 3 am. My friend wanted to go so I said go ahead I;ll be at the car in about 10 minutes. I leave the club and begin to walk to the car. We were parked about 1 block from the club. I was walking past an alley and there were three black dudes about 20 feet from the street just standing around talking. As soon as I get parallel to them they run up to me and point and gun to my face
"give me your wallet *****"
then proceeded to beat me in the face with said gun
3 days in the hospital later I realized that if I had had a gun and saw three thugs running toward me I could have saved a couple thousand in hosptal bills and spared myself a scare
Yes they could have shot me if I had whipped out a gun, but they could have shot me anyways even though I didnt have a gun, maybe their ***** high had wore off you knows. But If I did have a gun, me merely showing my gun would have made them turn and run the other way....cowards do not like fair odds.
and I dont know if you have these in Europe but here in America we have what are called Home Invasion robberys, the criminals know people are home and break in anyway, do what they want with the people and take your stuff. A gun would come in handy in that situation.
I've got a train to catch, the 3:10 to Yuma...giddy up
I believe you Europenas do not know how bad it is here...and no I do not live in a bad city. I live in Las Vegas.
And for the record, the criminals were black...but thats just what they happened to be, Im in no way inferring that all criminals are balck...I just want to make that clear before someone decides to open that can of worms.
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Nebulous
Thukker Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.15 22:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Sosus Red Edited by: Sosus Red on 15/03/2008 21:33:18 [Very well said Aaron...
How do you defend yourself with a gun...what a stupid question.
Whats up with eurpeans thinking all americans are cowboys?
Let me give you a brief description of a crime which happened to me.
I was @ a club, just got done watching a DJ set by Oakenfold. It was about 3 am. My friend wanted to go so I said go ahead I;ll be at the car in about 10 minutes. I leave the club and begin to walk to the car. We were parked about 1 block from the club. I was walking past an alley and there were three black dudes about 20 feet from the street just standing around talking. As soon as I get parallel to them they run up to me and point and gun to my face
"give me your wallet *****"
then proceeded to beat me in the face with said gun
3 days in the hospital later I realized that if I had had a gun and saw three thugs running toward me I could have saved a couple thousand in hosptal bills and spared myself a scare
Yes they could have shot me if I had whipped out a gun, but they could have shot me anyways even though I didnt have a gun, maybe their ***** high had wore off you knows. But If I did have a gun, me merely showing my gun would have made them turn and run the other way....cowards do not like fair odds.
and I dont know if you have these in Europe but here in America we have what are called Home Invasion robberys, the criminals know people are home and break in anyway, do what they want with the people and take your stuff. A gun would come in handy in that situation.
I've got a train to catch, the 3:10 to Yuma...giddy up
I believe you Europenas do not know how bad it is here...and no I do not live in a bad city. I live in Las Vegas.
And for the record, the criminals were black...but thats just what they happened to be, Im in no way inferring that all criminals are balck...I just want to make that clear before someone decides to open that can of worms.
I see your point but it does not really make any sense, it's all "if" I had this and "if" I had that, if's and but's mean nothing, "if" my auntie had balls she would be my uncle, if freddy mercury used condoms he wouldnt have got AIDS, both true but mean nothing really.
If I think as a criminal for one minute and I think a house is going to be defended by someone weilding a gun what would I do? Logically I would take my own gun of course and i will have the advantage, because the people who's house I break into are going to be half asleep if they realise whats going on, I wouldnt be very confident with shooting while in a near sleeping state.
As for america having a cowboy culture just look at the british casualties in the first gulf war, I think you will find that more of our troops were killed by Americans than Iraqi's, American troops even managed to shoot one of our jet fighters down even though Iraq didn't really have an air force as such at the time, not beating up on America of course as it's a great country for the best part, just stating some facts sorry.
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Sosus Red
Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 22:54:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Nebulous
Originally by: Sosus Red Edited by: Sosus Red on 15/03/2008 21:33:18 [Very well said Aaron...
How do you defend yourself with a gun...what a stupid question.
Whats up with eurpeans thinking all americans are cowboys?
Let me give you a brief description of a crime which happened to me.
I was @ a club, just got done watching a DJ set by Oakenfold. It was about 3 am. My friend wanted to go so I said go ahead I;ll be at the car in about 10 minutes. I leave the club and begin to walk to the car. We were parked about 1 block from the club. I was walking past an alley and there were three black dudes about 20 feet from the street just standing around talking. As soon as I get parallel to them they run up to me and point and gun to my face
"give me your wallet *****"
then proceeded to beat me in the face with said gun
3 days in the hospital later I realized that if I had had a gun and saw three thugs running toward me I could have saved a couple thousand in hosptal bills and spared myself a scare
Yes they could have shot me if I had whipped out a gun, but they could have shot me anyways even though I didnt have a gun, maybe their ***** high had wore off you knows. But If I did have a gun, me merely showing my gun would have made them turn and run the other way....cowards do not like fair odds.
and I dont know if you have these in Europe but here in America we have what are called Home Invasion robberys, the criminals know people are home and break in anyway, do what they want with the people and take your stuff. A gun would come in handy in that situation.
I've got a train to catch, the 3:10 to Yuma...giddy up
I believe you Europenas do not know how bad it is here...and no I do not live in a bad city. I live in Las Vegas.
And for the record, the criminals were black...but thats just what they happened to be, Im in no way inferring that all criminals are balck...I just want to make that clear before someone decides to open that can of worms.
I see your point but it does not really make any sense, it's all "if" I had this and "if" I had that, if's and but's mean nothing, "if" my auntie had balls she would be my uncle, if freddy mercury used condoms he wouldnt have got AIDS, both true but mean nothing really.
If I think as a criminal for one minute and I think a house is going to be defended by someone weilding a gun what would I do? Logically I would take my own gun of course and i will have the advantage, because the people who's house I break into are going to be half asleep if they realise whats going on, I wouldnt be very confident with shooting while in a near sleeping state.
As for america having a cowboy culture just look at the british casualties in the first gulf war, I think you will find that more of our troops were killed by Americans than Iraqi's, American troops even managed to shoot one of our jet fighters down even though Iraq didn't really have an air force as such at the time, not beating up on America of course as it's a great country for the best part, just stating some facts sorry.
Most likely the Criminal, knowing the person had a way to defend him/herself, would go choose another poor defenseless person to rob. Remember, most of these cowards choose the path of least resistance,
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