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CamelKnight III
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 16:24:00 -
[1]
Hello CCP (if you even take the time to read this),
This is my FINAL notice to you.
I've been playing Eve-Online since June 2004 and gotten another account in January 2007. This means that, in total, I've already paid well over 700 Euro's since I became one of many players in the known Eve-verse. In that time I've put up with uncountable bugs, errors, mistakes, thievery, lieing, fraude, bad patches and worse fixes. However, I always had fun and therefor I always put up with it. But now, I'm fed up with it.
There are several major and severe bugs introduced by your latest patch: Trinity 1.1. The server-side fix applied only days later merely fixed some Missions. Yet the major part of the bugs weren't and still aren't fixed. I still have black thumbnails instead of neat ship thumbnails. I still need to click every single person I know to generate his thumnail, hoping the server doesn't lag out while retrieving it causing another black thumnail. I still don't have my bookmarks returned. And that's just me, without undocking as I'm scared for my very implants which could perish or combust inside my char's heads. Hell, anything's possible in Eve.
There is no braincell in that grey matter occupieing my head which has a clue to what CCP's bug hunting team consists off. The better part considers it more then likely that the team contains at least 2 rabbits, one cake and some twigs. No people. This may sound funny, but it actually is not. I'm SO fed up with the incompetence of CCP that I'm throwing in the towel, after almost 4 years of active and semi-active-but-still-paying play. With every patch there come new bugs. With every fix for those bugs, there come new bugs. Even without them doing anything, there come new bugs.
So, as I stated in the beginning of this forum topic: this is my Final Notice. My accounts are paid for untill the end of May. If you still want me as a customer after that time then I will expect to see at least the following, which should've been in place already to start with:
- A proper, functional Bug Hunting Team. Named, described, with full knowledge of the game. These should have a testing facility available with at least every OS Eve is run on, every CPU and every VGA card that's being used to play Eve with. I'm NOT talking about any form of simulation to test large quantities of code or to simulate large numbers of players. Faking a test isn't testing. Performing a test with actual users is testing. The facility should be well documented and described for the general public: your customers. The BHT should operate autonomously, without ANY supervision and without ANY pressure being applied by CCP Coding Team. - A proper testfase. This should take at least 2-3 weeks prior to patchlaunch. During this time, the patch should be available for customers as a beta (applied to Singularity). During this testfase, a code freeze should apply. NOTHING should be changed. If bugs are found, fixes should be created and a new patch should be made available. A new testfase should start, again taking 2-3 weeks prior to patchlaunch. Only if NO major bugs are found, the patch should be made available to the customers. - An apology about the many screwups regarding patching, bugs introduced by patching and the lack of proper communication surrounding patching. - At least one day of free play for all Eve customers, as a token of goodwill and a means to show you truly understand you messed up and need to do better.
Should the above be in place and made publicly known before the end of May, I will continue my subscribtion and hope to become a happy player once more.
As there will obviously be people willing to reply to this thread: please refrain from asking for my ships, isk and whatever else. Should I indeed leave Eve then all this will be contributed to the good of the fine alliance I'm part of: CVA Please refrain from flaming. I simply hope this topic delivers a bright shining message to CCP.
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Teh Pirate
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 16:29:00 -
[2]
Can I have your stuff?
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Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:34:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 15/03/2008 17:37:13
i think some of the problems with singularity being used for testing is we don't use singularity in the same way we use trinity. we don't setup jump bridge networks, refine ice, jump clone, or run missions ect.. none of the CCP team is dedicated to finding bugs, if they are they are doing an awful job of it. they take bugs reported by its paying members and attempt to fix them. they then apply the fix to the test server. if the bug introduces a new problems and its not seen in the normal testing that players do on the test server... then, it slips by and gets on trinity server where we have more problems. A real bug testing team should be a requirement and not a option when your running a evolving MMO like EVE.
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Dorisane
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:40:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 15/03/2008 17:37:13
i think some of the problems with singularity being used for testing is we don't use singularity in the same way we use trinity. we don't setup jump bridge networks, refine ice, jump clone, or run missions ect.. none of the CCP team is dedicated to finding bugs, if they are they are doing an awful job of it. they take bugs reported by its paying members and attempt to fix them. they then apply the fix to the test server. if the bug introduces a new problems and its not seen in the normal testing that players do on the test server... then, it slips by and gets on trinity server where we have more problems. A real bug testing team should be a requirement and not a option when your running a evolving MMO like EVE.
its called unit testing, and if ccp isnt doing it, i'd be amazed.
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Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 17:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 15/03/2008 17:52:28 a lot of simple and easy to test bugs have slip past the testing phase and been applied to trinity.
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Khani Dood
Ministry of Destruction
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Posted - 2008.03.15 18:15:00 -
[6]
I second this post.
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Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.03.15 18:18:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 15/03/2008 18:18:01 wrong thread-
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Lobster Man
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.03.15 19:33:00 -
[8]
Would be a good idea, but we all know what the odds of anything like this happening is......
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CamelKnight III
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.16 10:07:00 -
[9]
Just a few of the many topics with ppl experiencing trouble. Yet nothing comes from CCP.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=727055 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=727069 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=726024
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Niding
Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.16 11:03:00 -
[10]
I second what Camelknight is saying.
But my main grief is voiced by coeathal vega from Reikoku/Band of Brothers that made the first thread Camel linked.
I couldnt care one bit about all the shiny toys added, if we cant have a fleetfight without worrying if you desync/lag out as you cyno into a battle or jump thru a gate/warp to a gate.
Even fights were local count isnt that high you risk seeing nothing on overview but your ship being shredded. Immensly annoying.
I dont mind loosing my ships/capitals, but I would love to atleast see who is killing me |
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Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.16 11:41:00 -
[11]
Reading that 3rd thread, was glad I went off and played counterstrike last night. Guess what I saw an advert for when I logged into steam
It could also ofc. have something to do with it being end of term at least where I am, so all the kiddies and students like me all log onto Eve over the weekend.
But hey, Sunday could be even worse! So be optimistic
---
As for the general lag issues, I think part of the problem is you can't just throw more people / money at it. Eve has some design issues where CCP took decisions right at inception that have proved not to be the best, but can't be changed and have come back to bite them on the ass. The change to get rid of space junk is a classic example of this.
The problem is kinda compounded by Eve's scope. In other mmo's you might get 800 people on the whole server, but certainly not all in one location at the same time trying to lots of things all at once.
Also some of the game mechanics don't help things either. You're never going to be able to stop everyone rushing to one side of the boat if they really really want to, but you can make it less necessary. For example, gates as bottlenecks make sense when Eve first starts out, to encourage people into the same space to let combat take place, but now seem almost like a bad idea for the very same reason.
If this game were only about pvp or mission running in Empire, customising a ship and grinding isk, I'd have left long ago. The saving grace of Eve is that there are some really abstract, higher goals that players can achieve, like building an empire in 0.0 or a successful business team in a dynamic, player controlled economy.
Still amazes me no one has picked up on these USP's of Eve and tried to build something better. Soon as someone invents an MMO that isn't designed for kiddies or the mass market, I'm outta here. But for now, just gonna endure the lag
Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists
Recruiting |
Vanessa Vale
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.17 04:43:00 -
[12]
I've seen a good number of known "quirks" or directly bugs that have come through to tq so I believe ccp actually knows about them. For example the overview thing.
As to why they decide to push them to tq I have no idea.
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sci0gon
Tech 2 Ammo Holdings Limited Tech Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.03.17 07:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CamelKnight III I'm SO fed up with the incompetence of CCP that I'm throwing in the towel, after almost 4 years of active and semi-active-but-still-paying play. With every patch there come new bugs. With every fix for those bugs, there come new bugs. Even without them doing anything, there come new bugs..
I know you think that will help them be more open and say whats going on but it wont, with every person that leaves they have another 10 trying to sign up.
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El Kaposo
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.17 08:07:00 -
[14]
i have been around since 2005 and i must agree with the op that quality assurance and quality control are really weak with ccp.
the only fact that saves them is their amazing game idea and lack of competition.
only yesterday was i finally able to switch to premium, after i found out from fellow players that it is the windowed mode that causes crashes to desktop. i had submitted bug reports but got the common 'can't be reproduced' reply.
it amazes me that always with patches the most unsuspecting bugs appear. jumpbridges don't work/animations disappear, clone jumping causes loss of implants, the operating system gets messed up ...the list goes on. i mean : come on ! there is probably lots of under-the-hood fixing that takes place, but with so many paying subscribers there should be professional testing.
Where is the problem to get a functional q&a division that is industry standard? nobody would complain about some minor issues, there are common with today's complex coding. and we know that ccp does alot to improve their game and interact with the players.
bottomline : thanks ccp for your awesome game and dedication, but please do proper q&a
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Durzel
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Durzel on 17/03/2008 12:15:50 "Giving notice" to a game company is almost as humourous as the usual staple of MMO forums, the classic reverse-psychology 101 "why the Devs won't read this" or the ubiquitous "FAO DEVS".
However, this wins on the pure arrogance stakes of "giving notice" like you're somehow more important than the rest of us purely based on how long you've been playing.
I agree with the point made - CCPs testing processes seem to be woefully lacking, however the manner in which it is presented sucks.
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Niding
Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.17 12:19:00 -
[16]
I think the point of saying how long hes been playing is to show he loves the game and expirience it gives, but at one point lag/bugs takes away too much of the enjoyment for some players to continue.
CCP can take such inputs as they like. Point and laugh at concerns from consumers, or take it as a hint that loyality to their product has its limits.
That said; CamelKnight IS CVA and amarrian, so arrogance comes with the territory |
RoyAraym
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.03.17 13:18:00 -
[17]
Sign Up CamelKnight III's thinking...
... waiting a change of mentality in "How control patch deployment".
No change = no more money
Good ideas on the game... winning in a lot of aspect... but at least, a "wrong release" and "waiting for correction" may happen sometimes. Not Always.
God forgives... ... me not.
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CamelKnight III
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.17 16:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Durzel Edited by: Durzel on 17/03/2008 12:15:50 "Giving notice" to a game company is almost as humourous as the usual staple of MMO forums, the classic reverse-psychology 101 "why the Devs won't read this" or the ubiquitous "FAO DEVS".
However, this wins on the pure arrogance stakes of "giving notice" like you're somehow more important than the rest of us purely based on how long you've been playing.
I don't see this as arrogant eventhough I'm called arrogant on a regular basis. You, and I suspect many others including CCP, are looking at this the wrong way. I'm paying for a product. A product which *should* give me a good time, entertain me, makes me spend my free time and pass those dull hours where I have nothing to do. For that, I'm more then willing to pay. Eve however, has a tendency of creating annoyance, irritation, frustration and more of those feelings. As a loyal customer I want value for my money. Patches, bugs, bugfixes that don't fix and numerous other matters, among others the lack of competence on CCP's side, create the feeling that I feel my money is no longer worth paying for Eve. As someone who has engaged in a contract with CCP, I demand that CCP get their act together and sort out their problems. I could search for it in the EULA I, and they, agree to and I'm rather positive that it doesn't just tell me about the things I can and can't do. It also states, to some degree, that CCP is obliged to create a proper working game.
Now here I am. I'm a normal customer. No, I'm MORE then a normal customer as I even propose a bunch of solutions to their problems. Or rather some implementations that could nullify the existance of future problems. I don't call that arrogant. I call that being friendly and thinking with them instead of fighting them. And yes, to make sure they listen to me I cancelled my subscribtion. To make it known to them that I'm for real, as they should run their corporation for real.
Originally by: sci0gon
Originally by: CamelKnight III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm SO fed up with the incompetence of CCP that I'm throwing in the towel, after almost 4 years of active and semi-active-but-still-paying play. With every patch there come new bugs. With every fix for those bugs, there come new bugs. Even without them doing anything, there come new bugs.. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you think that will help them be more open and say whats going on but it wont, with every person that leaves they have another 10 trying to sign up.
No. I don't think my actions will help them be more open. Or rather, think they will set up a proper QA. But I darnwell hope they do or it gives them a kick in the right direction. Who knows.
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Kevrlet
The Knighthawks Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.03.17 19:07:00 -
[19]
TBQH Mr. OP, you quite obviously have no inkling just how hard coding for a game as immense and complicated as EVE can be, much less making such a huge server cluster work flawlessly. As someone in the industry, I respect how well CCP does under such conditions, and suggest you calm down and just deal with the fact that a project as huge as EVE is going to have bugs when things are changed. It's inevitable. Never has, and never will, change.
We need this. Badly. |
CamelKnight III
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.17 22:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kevrlet TBQH Mr. OP, you quite obviously have no inkling just how hard coding for a game as immense and complicated as EVE can be, much less making such a huge server cluster work flawlessly. As someone in the industry, I respect how well CCP does under such conditions, and suggest you calm down and just deal with the fact that a project as huge as EVE is going to have bugs when things are changed. It's inevitable. Never has, and never will, change.
TBQH Mr. Replyer to thread: whether Eve is complicated or not is not my problem. I'm paying for a product that doesn't work like it's supposed to and to which I am entitled to. I actually do have a good idea how stuff is supposed to work as I work at a company designing a large software bundle itsself. Bugs occur and should be solved on the spot or at least as soon as possible. That however, does not imply customers should just "suck it up and stop whining" like you suggest. CCP, like any other software company, should do their utmost best to deliver a proper working product. In that they fail, at least in my opinion. You however are entitled to your own opinion. You can be happy as hell with a non-working, bug-infested product. I'm not. I would be if I was under the impression that things were getting better, bug-fixing wise. My history with CCP has taught me that it's not getting better. In fact, just looking back at the boot.ini bug, I'd be saying it's gotten quite worse.
Then again, it's still only my opinion. I won't point you to the other threads mentioned in this thread, to the other threads on the forums I didn't link to or to the other posts of ppl in this thread who seem to agree with me. I'm simply making my point: get your act together or lose a customer. It's CCP's choice to do with that as they please and thankfully not yours.
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Enkilil
Carbon Moon Corporation Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.17 22:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kevrlet TBQH Mr. OP, you quite obviously have no inkling just how hard coding for a game as immense and complicated as EVE can be, much less making such a huge server cluster work flawlessly. As someone in the industry, I respect how well CCP does under such conditions, and suggest you calm down and just deal with the fact that a project as huge as EVE is going to have bugs when things are changed. It's inevitable. Never has, and never will, change.
Enter the Sock Puppets.
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Plutonian
Plutonian Shore
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Posted - 2008.03.18 10:56:00 -
[22]
The patches/upgrades seem so rushed. I'm curious to know why.
The game is successful. It is probably making a great deal of revenue for CCP. Updates are not in any legal way enforced upon CCP... management may devote effort to them as it pleases. And the player base seems almost reluctant when any change is mentioned.
So why the breakneck pace to get the new content out? It doesn't seem to make sense.
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Your Choice
Instant Annihilation New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.03.18 11:48:00 -
[23]
i agree with Camel on this one Not only did u say that the new 1.1 patch will have no nerfs and is a boost patch is beyond a joke there has been many nerfs in this patch which means ccp needs to look at what they have done and come up with some good reasons as to why they have lied about this new patchs . On another note over the past few days since 1.1 was installed we have had late server start ups your loosing players
CCP WILL YOU GIVE US A ANSWER INSTEAD OF IGNORING THREADS SUCH AS THIS !!!
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Smartislarti
HEART OF GOLD
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Posted - 2008.03.18 12:15:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Smartislarti on 18/03/2008 12:15:55
Originally by: Your Choice CCP WILL YOU GIVE US A ANSWER INSTEAD OF IGNORING THREADS SUCH AS THIS !!!
No, they don't!
They can't hardly read the op, that's the only reason why bugs like messed up windows after relog, disappearing overview settings and other bulls**t failed to be fixed before the patches have been applied, although none of these patches was of the same importance as "happy customers" would have been.
But such decisions are made by the management, not by the qa or ingame testing team (if there is one).
"Since we have to speak well of the dead, let's knock them while they're alive." -- John Sloan |
Nocturnal Avenger
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.18 12:41:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Nocturnal Avenger on 18/03/2008 12:42:33
Originally by: CamelKnight III Please refrain from flaming. I simply hope this topic delivers a bright shining message to CCP.[/qoute]
Edit: my quote ****** up for some reason. What is written below is my answer.
By making this rant - do you really expect to show CCP a problem they were not aware of?
Even though upgrades are often followed by problems, I think CCP gives us a great game.
If you disagree... don't go away mad - just go away.
- Carebear Pirate - |
Sandra Love
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.18 12:47:00 -
[26]
Please quit now, because my ears are starting to bleed.
Thanks
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AthlonJedi
Knights Of Serenity Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.03.18 12:54:00 -
[27]
wow you guys really have no idea how complex fixing a bug an a massive cluster can be, we are talking about thousands of individual nodes the bug could exist in or be generated by. while I agree some of these issues ( Boot.ini in windows being deleted at trinity launch for example ) are rather frustrating at times, all in all I believe CCP is doing a decent job in not having thier cluster spontainiously combust.
there are many a technical issues to running a cluster of this magnitude, sync issues being the worst to conqour, so , that said , as a paying customer, you have the right to stop your subscription if you feel you can do a better job, code your own mmo , and lets see how well you do.
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AthlonJedi
Knights Of Serenity Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.03.18 12:55:00 -
[28]
wow you guys really have no idea how complex fixing a bug an a massive cluster can be, we are talking about thousands of individual nodes the bug could exist in or be generated by. while I agree some of these issues ( Boot.ini in windows being deleted at trinity launch for example ) are rather frustrating at times, all in all I believe CCP is doing a decent job in not having thier cluster spontainiously combust.
there are many a technical issues to running a cluster of this magnitude, sync issues being the worst to conqour, so , that said , as a paying customer, you have the right to stop your subscription if you feel you can do a better job, code your own mmo , and lets see how well you do.
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Papa Camorrano
3rd Bank of Camorrano
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Posted - 2008.03.18 12:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: CamelKnight III It's CCP's choice to do with that as they please and thankfully not yours.
I lost track how much training time, ISK, ships, stuff, trust and belive I lost in the last 15 months of playing eve. - this game is full of bugs - there's no bug division - the server-hamsters have 24/7-diet
... could you please accept that now and stop whining. It's pathetic.
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Evansec
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.18 13:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sandra Love Please quit now, because my ears are starting to bleed.
Thanks
Says the whiner over 28 hours of gametime?
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