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Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:05:00 - [1] The economics of suicide ganking (a carebear's descent into chaos). Sun Tzu said "To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy". Well actually sun Tzu never said that it just is horribly misquoted because the real saying is not as catchy. However regardless of who said it, the saying is good advice. Over last couple weeks the rhetoric on both sides about suicide ganking has reached fevered pitch. The gankees complain it is way too easy, has no risk, should be an exploit, and likely will cause the EVE cluster to begin learning at a geometric rate and become self-aware. In a panic CCP will try to pull the plug and .... well the rest is history (or is it future). Anways I decided to find out how hard is suicide ganking (from now on called SG because I am a lazy carebear). How much work does it take to SG? How boring is it to SG? Can you defend yourself from a SG? Do people still fly AFK with billions in their cargohold? Note to my fellow bears: The is my "forum warrior" alt. It will never be used in-game. Don't ask me to "post with my main", don't both setting standing to -10 because this isn't the toon that did the ganking. Note to the pew-pew types: I am sure I screwed a lot of stuff up. I likely forgot stuff, didn't do it optimally, or was in general just a dumb carebear. I welcome any advice but the point was expirement without outside help. Game Theory: So I decided I needed some intel. How quick does Concord respond? What is the sec hit? How much dmg do I need to do? I fitted a noob ship and shot a miner in a belt and waiter for concord. Found out I have about 20 seconds in 0.5-0.6 space and about 8 seconds in 1.0 space. 0.5 FTW. Sec hit for starting combat not too bad (-0.5%). I used EFT and found a BC was best mix of enough HP to survive the sentry guns, mid slots to passive target, scan, web, scramble, and enough raw damage to destroy untanked ships in <20 seconds. I used Brutix w/ Heavy Blasters, required mid slot gear (eventually traded a ship scanner for warp scrambler), damage mods, and 1 damage control (boosts HP enough to survive sentry guns for 30 seconds). Total cost plus insurance premium minus payout is about 5 million. This is a balancing problem IMHO. Stalking the bear: I looked at the map for some 0.5 & 0.6 systems a few jumps from "home". I found a couple that lead towards the highway system to Jita (the carebear mecca). After a couple false starts I found a couple gates that meets the criteria: 0.5 - 0.6 sec rating High Traffic (Jumps per hour) High Traffic in the ajoining system (jumps per hour). Station for docking with da lootz. High % of industrial traffic. Types of traffic: 1) Outbound (AFK or manual) - I noticed solo it is very hard to lock, scan, close distance, and decided to engage before they warp out. This is the domain of gangs not solo gankers. 2) End System - This is the final jump for player. Likely they have been AFK so the ship waits 30 seconds then decloaks and sits there. I didn't go after these because one they are rare two it is a pain to close on them only to have the warp out just before I scramble them. 3) Inbound WTZ (Warp to Zero) - "forget about it". Can't be attacked or at least not anyway I could figure out. 4) Inbound AFK - the meat. If you are running AFK you are the problem. All 5 of the kills I made were AFK. Compared to all other targets AFK bears are easier and more numerous. After 2nd kills I started looking at AFK bears exclusively.
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:06:00 - [2] The Results: First ganking is 99.9% of the time boring. More boring that ratting, more boring than running missions, more boring than mining, more boring than even salvaging. I am talking putting a hybrid pistol to your head and pulling the trigger boring. However the brief 8 seconds of combat was a rush. I knew I was dead but I wasn't sure I would get the target, or would it drop the good lootz, or would someone else scoop the gear, or did he have a buddy who was going to pod me. I am ashamed to say it but it is kinda addicting. Out of 5 attacks 4 were successful and 1 I mistook a Mastadon (T2 transport) for a Mammoth (Industrial). I didn't even break the armor before Concord popped me. Net gain was about 100 million. Analysis for carebears: Gain per hour for solo ganking is less than lvl4 mission running. AFK carebears in untanked cargo expanded to the max (drops structure HP) ships are a huge part of the problem. They simply make it way too easy. Transports are tough. After the whole Mastadon-Of-Doom incident I rechecked EFT. A well tanked T2 transport has about 25,000 effective HP (HP * average resist of damage being dealt) against blasters. I good BC can do about 400 DPS so in 20 seconds can do 8000 damage. A T2 transport can survive 3 BC. Learn what "effective HP" mean. Use EFT. Even if you don't care about "pew pew" you should care when the "pew pew" is aimed at you. 8,000 effective HP (EHP) can survive a solo ganker. 16,000 can survive a pair. 24,000 can survive 3. 50,000 can survive 8. Damage Control II is your friend. It gives an all around boost to armor, shield and 60% resist to structure. This one module can boost your effective HP by 40%. Booster are generally useless in high sec. Forget about "active tanks" think "static tank" Increase HP so you can survive 30 seconds. All battles are over within 30 seconds. If you fit a repair module and it has a cycle time of 30 sec and repairs 400HP then you gained 1 cycle or 400HP. If you fit a 800mm plate and gain 2000 raw HP then you gain 2000 raw HP (likely 3000-5000 effective HP). You aren't trying to survive a 4 hour PVE quest. You just need to survive 30 sec with 1+ HP remaining. Unless you already know what you are doing forget warp stabalizers in high sec. While you align to warp in your untanked indy they will pop you. Concentrate on surviving until Concord arrives. Don't run BPO in shuttles. It doesn't fool anyone. Use transports. Use transports. Use transports. Oh yeah Use transports. If you can't use transports use a static tanked battleship (1600mm plate + hardeners) if you are moving a small amount of expensive cargo (BPO, BPC, implants, T2 modules, rigs, etc). If you run an AFK indy with no tank, max expanders and I kill you don't ask for your stuff back. That's just sad. Analysis for pew-pew guys: I don't know how you survive the boredom. Litterally I need an insurance policy on my implants in case I am negatively affected by a self inflicted gunshot to the head. Be honest. The 100% insurance (which generally is 110%-120% of purchase price for BC) takes all risk away. I think no insurance may be too much but maybe 50% insurance penalty would make target selection more important. Don't tell the bears but I started this as an experiment but now I am kinda addicted. It is a rush and the loot looks so nice when you go over it in the hanger. The anguish when a pirate implant is the item destroyed and a shuttle BPC survives. Wow. It is like a whole new game.
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:07:00 - [3] Edited by: Keva on 18/03/2008 23:07:48 Some ideas off the top of my head: * trial account should not be able to do anything "illegal". It is an exploit but very hard to prove. Solve the problem CCP. Right now a window pops up to tell you that you are doing something "risky". For trial accounts don't give them an OK/Cancel. Just give them a "Cancel" with paragraph explaining this is only for paid accounts. The sec loss is the only real risk to and trials make it too easy to get rid of. * Make cargo blockers that work like ECM with a % chance that cargo scan will fail. Now if the scan is blocked likely the indy has some good stuff. What if they dropped the good stuff and it is empty. Do I attack it or do I let it go? * Make a cargo demolition charges item. Make them carried in cargo hold and large like 500m to reduce effective cargo capacity. Each one increases the % of each item being destroyed. Say if normally each item has a 50% chance of being destroyed maybe it is 60% with if a cargo demolition charge is being carried. Obviously they should stack with penalties (like armor resist). It should never be possible for 100% of cargo to be destroyed. * Some game mechanic where gankers can be "hassled" by anti-pirate players needs to be added. I mean I am sitting at a gate scanning all the ships that pass. Obviously I am up to no good but no player can attack me or Concord will respond. Concord does nothing, the empire does nothing. Now I don't think scanning should be a concord flag but it should warrant some response. Maybe a % chance based on sec rating. Each scan has a chance that I am flagged as outlaw for 15 minutes. So an anti-pirate guy can hang around the gate cloaked. If I get flagged he can jump me. Basically there should be some risk. Summary: * My drill Seagent liked to say "if you tired then your wrong" in eve if you are AFK then you are wrong. If all players stopped flying AFK honestly suicide ganking would drop by 90%. * Suicide attacks should continue to be allowed. They serve an important role. They regulate supply and demand. They punish foolish players. They reward (the player who used Mastadon that I thought was a Mammouth) players who take precautions. * Suicide attacks need to be adjusted for risk. I think no insurance payout is too harsh because it gives a free pass to anyone carrying less than 30 million in equipment. Maybe a 50% insurance penalty would make sense? * Alt accounts should not be able to engage in PVP in high-sec (no suicide attacks, no podding, no can flipping). If you are new and want to do that then subsribe. It would overnight end the suicide-alt issue. * Carebears need to learn how to "static tank" = increase raw HP and resists as high as possible to survive a 30 sec attack. * There should be some counters either scan blockers (% based), temporary outlaw flag % based on scanning, cargo charges, etc? I don't know what but there should be something to make it more than scan all incomming ships. Open fire on first ship worth 20mill+.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:12:00 - [4] good post:) Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:20:00 - [5] I think this in one of the few instances where a shield tanker is better in PvP. The transport ships set up for shield tanking have a better chance to survive than those thought for armor tanking. They can set up for faster getaway while an armor tanker is slower accelerating and warping.
Poppy Star Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:24:00 - [6] Great post. Im a carebear myself, so I will immediately hate you for ganking other bears, but I love you for telling me how I can increase my chances of survival if im unlucky enough to be the victim of a gank. I take my hat off to you for not just whining about gankers and having the dogs danglies to try it for yourself. I would wish you luck in your endeavor but im not a masochist, so I will just say "have fun" being a Will swap T2 cookies for shiny moderator sigs
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 23:39:00 - [7] Edited by: Soporo on 18/03/2008 23:42:40 Excellent post. I learned some of this the hard way a while back, but you ahve certainly added to my store of Emp traveling tactics. I agree that Insurance payouts are the big issue here; current situation = CCP approves of suicide alt Empire gank. ________________________________________________ "We can't reimburse ships due to server meltdowns because our service is so frickin unstable we get thousands of reimburse petitions daily".
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:09:00 - [8] This is the best OP I have seen in weeks, if not months. Sir, you win EvE today. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:10:00 - [9] awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. thanks for the tl;dr i wasn't gonna read it.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. thanks for the tl;dr i wasn't gonna read it. \0/ happy ending! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Einar Lightfingers Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aprudena Gist awful lot of :words: in those posts. People do it cause its fun. Well to be fair, that's what he found out. thanks for the tl;dr i wasn't gonna read it. This being said by a Goon honestly doesn't surprise me. To the OP, props to you sir for actually doing the research yourself instead of whining/crying etc. Now, to convince all the whiners to read your post and actually take your advice..... _______________________ Retired CEO of DOMNI
banannagirl The U-B-H-C	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:59:00 - [14] In my earlier post it was suggested that suicide ganking would only be a result of making new clones revert back to 0 sec. so whats this post about ... people ... SUICIDE GANKING ...! regards BG Link removed, advertising services for real world money is not allowed on the forums - Wrangler
Chelone Stone Shadow Syndicate deadspace society	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:12:00 - [15] Wow, I never knew only carebears flew haulers, or owned expensive things. Thanks for opening my eyes to the reality of Eve, and the plight of poor non-carebears who own nothing and never fly haulers. [/sarcasm]
Sumerio Rayej Dark Shadow Runners	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Keva [list] Trial account should not be able to do anything "illegal". It is an exploit but very hard to prove. Solve the problem CCP. Right now a window pops up to tell you that you are doing something "risky". For trial accounts don't give them an OK/Cancel. Just give them a "Cancel" with paragraph explaining this is only for paid accounts. The sec loss is the only real risk to and trials make it too easy to get rid of. All in all, this thread was an awesome read. I think all your suggestions are worth careful consideration, but this is an amazing idea. Not only does it eliminate part of the suicide-alt problem, it protects noobs from making stupid mistakes that might turn them off to the game. The only potential problem is that it doesn't let people jump right into a try at piracy during their trial period. I imagine that wouldn't be a very big deal, though.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:48:00 - [17] In response to the OP OUTSTANDING post. One of the most well written posts I've read in the last 3 years. I don't agree with you on everything. I still think the best and simplest thing would be to have zero insurance for any ship that dies while flagged by Concord (regardless of who gets final shot), but I dont mind if someone with less than 30mil cargo gets free ride. But the insurance issue is minor point, and one I'm not really much worried about, even if I do have an opinion on it. MUCH more important on this issue is a point you made that I 100% agree on: There should be some PRACTICAL (Stress the word "practical") way for bears to harrass suicide gankers and make life miserable for suicide gankers. (however, I can't think of anything to do this for your average bear, so I'd settle for no insurance....) Play nice while you butcher each other.
Agathe Hira Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:09:00 - [18] Eh, OP.. nice effort but the problem flew over your head. The problem is not afk t1 haulers. It's heavily tanked mission runner battleships getting blown up. Frieghters with over a hundred thousand hp being blown up. Any mining ship above a cruiser getting blown up. If someone uses a transport that only adds up to their loss, because gankers don't work solo. Transports are junk. 3 Brutixes ? that's less then the cost of the empty transport if the cargo wasn't worth anything . Any t2 ship above frigates is basicly open to griefing in highsec because it's cost empty and unfitted is higher then the cost in ships it takes to suicide it. You just do the math, your ship value, their ship+loot value, and you know you will win.
J Valkor Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:13:00 - [19] Kill em all and let the buzzards pick apart the remains.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Agathe Hira Eh, OP.. nice effort but the problem flew over your head. The problem is not afk t1 haulers. It's heavily tanked mission runner battleships getting blown up. Frieghters with over a hundred thousand hp being blown up. Any mining ship above a cruiser getting blown up. If someone uses a transport that only adds up to their loss, because gankers don't work solo. Transports are junk. 3 Brutixes ? that's less then the cost of the empty transport if the cargo wasn't worth anything . Any t2 ship above frigates is basicly open to griefing in highsec because it's cost empty and unfitted is higher then the cost in ships it takes to suicide it. You just do the math, your ship value, their ship+loot value, and you know you will win. Thats one of the reasons I'd like to see zero insurance for any ship that dies while flagged by Concord. Although I'd like to see a practical method of harrassing suicide gankers in 0.5+ even more. Make the issue into an actual two way hunting affair. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:53:00 - [21] Though your experiment was obviously more costly to other players than yourself you have provided some valuable insight here as to the dynamics of suicide ganking. A few points I will concur with and will add to: Trial accounts shouldn't be a tool for people to even further circumvent penalties for criminal behavior in EVE. Bad enough players use alts to avoid the penalties their mains incur but using trial accounts for mischief is just getting ridiculous. For that matter I don't think people should be using any throw away alt, paid for or not, to go around suicide ganking in high sec. Some form of ECM to block cargo scans should be available. However... Sitting on a gate or just off a station scanning ship's cargoholds it's blatantly obvious the hostile intent. One scan should get a warning from CONCORD including a small sec hit or fine, continued scanning cargoholds and CONCORD should consider it the same as if the player fired upon another. I do disagree with some points you made, I'll elaborate: OK let's make this clear AUTOPILOT CARGO HAULING IN HIGH SEC IS NOT A CRIME. By nature hauling goods often means traveling long distances. Even warp to zero gate to gate travel across EVE can be time consuming. Some haulers go AFK, some are busy checking markets, conducting business, etc. Just because a hauler has his or her ship on autopilot doesn't mean it deserves to be blown up. So let's get off blaming the victim. Having said that, yes it's obviously safer to not be AFK or otherwise to not autopilot all the time through EVE. If your cargo is quite valuable then it's better to be safe than sorry. Suicide ganking is not a necessary part of the EVE economy. That's just ridiculous. The economy was flowing long before suicide ganking got popular. It takes a considerable amount of training time (longer than it takes to get into a gankfit BS) and isk to get into a Transport Ship and fit it decently. A lot of players would like to get around EVE with cargo without having to sit and wait and train for over a month before they start their chosen profession. Yes it's a good idea for haulers to train up for Transports but just because a player hasn't the skills yet doesn't mean they should be royally screwed. My 2cents. ***
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 02:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Agathe Hira Eh, OP.. nice effort but the problem flew over your head. You just do the math, your ship value, their ship+loot value, and you know you will win. Well let's do some math. Here are some shipfits per EFT Iteron MK V fitted for hauling: Expanded Cargohold II x3 Nanofiber Internal Structure II x1 Overdrive Injector II x1 10MN Afterburner x1 Cargo: 12436 m3 (25,270 m3 w/ just 5x EC) EHP: 4140 EHP vs blaster (4560 EHP vs Energy) Iteron MK V fitted for static shield tank: Expanded Cargohold II x4 Damage Control II x1 Medium Shield Extender x4 Cargo: 19800 m3 last medium slot: Heat Disipation Amp II - 13K EHP vs Energy 16K EHP vs Blaster Heat Disipation Field II - 14K EHP vs Energy 18K EHP vs Blaster Invulnerability Field II - 15K EHP vs Energy 17K EHP vs Blaster Occator fitted for static shield tank Damage Control II x1 Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II x1 Expanded Cargohold II x4 Large Shield Extender II x2 optional: Rig-Cargohold Optimization I x2 Cargo: 16K, (21.8K w/ rigs) EHP: 40K vs Energy, 68K vs Blaster Freighter EHP: 140K - 160K (depending on model) So how long against how many ships can these setups survive? A cruiser can do about 350dps but can't survive sentry gun for more than 10sec. A battle cruiser can do about 400dps-450dps. A battleship can do about 600dps but BS guns are expensive. Fit medium guns and they do no more dmg than a BC at higher cost. So you can see why the BC is the premier gankship against anything smaller than a BS as target. Response time varies but is around: 0.5-0.6 - about 20 sec 0.7-0.8 - about 15 sec 0.9-1.0 - <10 sec (sometimes more but very risky to plan on longer response and it ends up being short). The purpose of the post wasn't to say you can be 100% invulnerable against all threats all the time anywhere. You can't. However sit at a gate and scan the ships. Record how many are AFK. Two patterns emerge. One is a LOT of ships are AFK. The other is a LOT of those ships don't even have the most basic tank. A ship w/ 4K EHP can't survive a single attacker. A ship w/ 40K EHP requires 5+ BC. Your comment about Brutix. Well it is a blaster boat so a T2 transport as shown above has 68K EHP. That requires 8 Brutix in 0.5 space to finish job before Concord arrives. In 0.7 that jumps to 10 and in 1.0 it is more like 15. So sure you can be destroyed however there is also opportunity cost. If it takes me and 14 of my buddies sit there and wait for that one T2 transport tanked to come by with 500mil in loot we could have made more isk destroying the 2 dozen or so haulers carrying 50-200 mil ea with no precautions that can be killed solo or in pairs. 500 mil split 14 ways or 50-200 mil split one (or maybe 2 ways)? One thing I learned in Iraq is you can't be 100% invincible. You can however make yourself a hard target. Most of the time people will hit the easy target. Today someone was transporting 100mil+ in salvage in a Bestower AFK (no tank, max cargo expanders even though his cargo was only about 3000m3). I targeted and destroyed him about 18 minutes after arriving at the gate. You think I am going to wait for that perfect battle against a T2 transport when there is easy targets like that going by every 15-30 minutes? All that being said that is why I am in favor of counter measures (scan blockers, cargo demolition charges, something), some tweaking of insurance (maybe half payouts is good place to start), also some game mechanics that allow people who scan 30+ ships in a row to be targeted as outlaw temporarily.
Marcus Quo Axe Gang	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:24:00 - [23] I'm amazed, this is actually a good post. And, as a pirate, I agree with most of the fixes that the OP proposes. Not sure about the scan blocking modules, but the rest sounds pretty reasonable.
Zifrian Gallente Federal Bank Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:27:00 - [24] So should I fit a Iteron or transport stuff with my BS? I don't really deal with much stuff that is expensive and I warp to 0km when I do. Am I relatively safe? I don't afk autopilot with expensive crap.
Shadow Joy Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:44:00 - [25] Excellent post - one of the best I have seen on this forum. Your idea about not allowing trial accounts to commit illegal actions is quite intriguing, and well worth discussing. I think, on balance, it would be a boost to suicide ganking as it would prevent people from using disposable alts to summon CONCORD before their expensive ships warp in. Given that the battlecruiser skill can not be trained on trial accounts, your suggestion would not really affect the people who follow in your footsteps. Still, for the other reasons you mentioned, I think the idea has merit.
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Zifrian So should I fit a Iteron or transport stuff with my BS? I don't really deal with much stuff that is expensive and I warp to 0km when I do. Am I relatively safe? I don't afk autopilot with expensive crap. If you don't need a lot of cargo space a BS is better hands down. The main limit is most BS even fitted with max Expanded Cargohold II can only hold <3000m. However if you don't have a transport and/or you are moving small vol high value cargo (implants, BPO, salvage, rigs, some T2 modules) it can be worth it. Take a Megathron. Now most people would armor tank it but lets say you need 3000m of cargo space. That means using low slots for cargo. So we are going to static shield tank it. Most important thing to remember in high sec the battle will be over in 20sec or less. Even Shield Boosters are not worth it. Let's compare shield booster to Shield Extender: X-Large Shield Booster II +600 HP ever 5 seconds = 120HP/s * 20 sec (max may be shorter) = 2400HP gained Large Shield Extender II +2625 HP (+225 more HP under longest engagement shorter attacks favor it more + you don't need to activate it). The goal is massive STATIC HP. Static Shield Tank Dominix Damage Control II x1 Expanded Cargohold II x6 Large Shield Extender II x2 Invulnerability Field II x2 Cargo: 2900m3 (just short of a giant can) EHP: 61K vs Blasters 57K vs Energy Of course you can tweak this some. If you really need more cargo space you could drop the DC and add one more expander. You lose about 10K effective HP (Damage Control is best single mod for static defense). You bump cargo to 3697 m3 so you can fit a giant cargo container for a bonus 900m or an effective cargo of 4297. If you make enough high value low vol cargo runs maybe fit 1 or 2 cargo rigs then you can gain armor plate for more HP and more cargo. If you needed less cargo (1784m3) you could keep shield tank and add a pair of 1600mm armor plate bringing your EHP to 85K. If you needed less cargo (657 m3) but max security drop all EC and add to the 85K setup 4 hardeners which brings your EHP to 130K - 160K depending on the type of attack. 160K HP would take 20+ BC to take you down it <20 sec. If really depends on how much cargo and how crazy hardened you want to make yourself. Some things Not to do (in high-sec): Fit warp core stab. It doesn't matter if you can run if they pop you before you aligned to warp. Fit AB or MWD thinking you can "run the gate" when semi-AFK. When scrambled you will be moving <150m/s or so. I start my attack run at around 7K so you will be dead long before Concord arrive or you reach the gate Use repairers or boosters. The battle is too short. If gankings lasted 60sec sure they would make sense. In 20sec neither module type can deliver enough raw HP. Neither can shield recharges, shield flux, shield relays. If you will be AFK don't use modules like Damage Control which need to be activated. At least use passive modules (extenders, armor plates, energized plating, shield amps etc
Jesnen D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:28:00 - [27] Edited by: Jesnen on 19/03/2008 04:31:15 Good post. I think the greatest thing about suicide ganking is that it places that bit of paranoia in everybody's mind. Cmon people, that's instant immersion right there, remember why you started playing eve? To be immersed in an environment where you could be whatever you were smart enough, determined enough, and lucky enough to be. Why homogenize eve by taking away creative careers such as this? It's like guns in America, there's way too many, we do stupid things with them, and they get us in trouble with the police, but to take them away is un-American. To take away suicide ganking is un-Eve. edit: Also if a game makes you scared, paranoid, angry, or happy then you probably got your money's worth so stop complaining everybody.
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:21:00 - [28] Actually there is no such thing as a "suicide" ganker in EVE per se as the only way a player can truly commit suicide is to delete their accounts. Be sure if a player's alts had no cloning ability you wouldn't see people throwing them away so eagerly suicide ganking other players. That idea I know would be considered too radical by many so I think, at the very least, if you commit a suicide gank you should get a sec hit significant enough to send you down to .4 or lower. There is no such thing as "Murderer-Lite", do the crime and you suffer the consequences. ***
Keva State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Nyabinghi There is no such thing as "Murderer-Lite", do the crime and you suffer the consequences. Just for the record. I never murdered anyone. No capsuleers were harmed. Believe me based on the amount of shouting in local and convo requests I am sure they survived with no injury to their vocal cords.
Zorlag GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Keva Originally by: Nyabinghi There is no such thing as "Murderer-Lite", do the crime and you suffer the consequences. Just for the record. I never murdered anyone. No capsuleers were harmed. Believe me based on the amount of shouting in local and convo requests I am sure they survived with no injury to their vocal cords. Some people think the screaming is the best part.

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