Originally by: TITANONGRID

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Simple solution - take away the ability to fit cloaks on ANY ship. Leave it on covops/recons.

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Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes

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Nothing wrong with cloaks, nothing wrong with being afk cloaked. Something wrong with you knowing someone is there cloaked.

Nerf local, not cloaks.

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Originally by: Zirator

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Best solution would be to change it in such a way that cloaks consume liquid ozone or a cloaking fuel sold by various npc groups.

Of course this should be done in such a way that this penalty doesn't apply to ships that are meant to cloak like cov ops, stealth bombers etc.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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One of my concerns with just making cloaked ships probeable with any decent degree of accuracy is the impact it has on using covert ops as fleet warp-in points. If you can get within 15km of the cloaked ship, you can get an interdictor right on top of the incoming fleet with minimal effort. Also, consider the current balance between recon probes and exploration probes, particularly WRT sensor strengths and resulting signal strengths.

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Originally by: Jonathan Calvert

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Edited by: Jonathan Calvert on 03/04/2008 12:08:22

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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One of my concerns with just making cloaked ships probeable with any decent degree of accuracy is the impact it has on using covert ops as fleet warp-in points. If you can get within 15km of the cloaked ship, you can get an interdictor right on top of the incoming fleet with minimal effort. Also, consider the current balance between recon probes and exploration probes, particularly WRT sensor strengths and resulting signal strengths.

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And i beleive you covered this in the audio blog, saying that cloaking would probably be changed to make it possible to find cloaked ships, except role specific ships like covops. I think it would add something to be able to put up an anti-cloaking bubble though, but only in 0.0.

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Originally by: Sparticula

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I like the idea of having a probe (a few Au) that decloaks ships that are stationary, this would certainly stop alts sitting in systems all day being inactive.

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Originally by: Sparticula

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Secondly, a short range (50-100Km) probe / module that decloaks anything in range. One operation of this could be the cloakers cap takes a hit whilst they stay within the decloak field until they eventually run out of cap and decloak - this would not completly Nerf Recons/coverts but I think other cloakers should insta decloak.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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One of my concerns with just making cloaked ships probeable with any decent degree of accuracy is the impact it has on using covert ops as fleet warp-in points. If you can get within 15km of the cloaked ship, you can get an interdictor right on top of the incoming fleet with minimal effort. Also, consider the current balance between recon probes and exploration probes, particularly WRT sensor strengths and resulting signal strengths.

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Originally by: Audri Fisher

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On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear

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Originally by: Tycho Straun

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Edited by: Tycho Straun on 03/04/2008 15:38:29
Good catch Greyscale, I forgot about warpins and inties being dropped effectively on top of targets. Also, a good point about making covops invisible to these things

What if we decrease sensitivity and linked it to sig radius. Start by subtracting the largest covops sig radius (so Covops are now invisible) and assume you can get within 30 km of a BS with great skills. Cloaking BSes would want to fit a stab, just in case an inty gets close while they are accelerating to warp off (they should have aligned while still cloaked). Code implementation should easy (ish) as youÆd just be subtracting a number for the current formula. Alternately, we could have it return no location, but merely report the existence of cloaked ship(s) on grid. RP/Tech reason: they can tell its there, but canÆt triangulate cause the tech is still to poorly understood.

Re: cloaking cause you got called away (been there done that), assuming we limit the range to on grid, you can warp to a random planet or moon at 100 and be pretty safe, as no one will be scanning planets just belts, gates and POSes

As for cloaked ships disappearing from local, not sure about that. But given the general discussion about local (social facilitator vs. intel tool), if it stays a grid range limit on the probe will protect SSed cloakers from detection.

Interesting idea about cloaks burning a fuel of some sort, (to limit their cloaking time.) Unfortunately, that construct makes a cloaker trade off cloak time for ammo, and I'm not sure we want to go there. If we make the fuel/ burn rates low enough, people will just stock up on fuel and weÆre back to 23/7 camping being easy. Burn too much and cloaking BSes become much less effective. It becomes another balancing issue for CCP to worry aboutà

Great thoughts so far, thanks everyone.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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If it was that simple we'd probably have done it already

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Originally by: Tycho Straun

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What if we decrease sensitivity and linked it to sig radius. Start by subtracting the largest covops sig radius (so Covops are now invisible) and assume you can get within 30 km of a BS with great skills. Cloaking BSes would want to fit a stab, just in case an inty gets close while they are accelerating to warp off (they should have aligned while still cloaked). Code implementation should easy (ish) as youÆd just be subtracting a number for the current formula. Alternately, we could have it return no location, but merely report the existence of cloaked ship(s) on grid. RP/Tech reason: they can tell its there, but canÆt triangulate cause the tech is still to poorly understood.

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Originally by: maralt

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What do you have against ppl who go afk while cloaked and how does it matter if they do apart from giving ppl ship kills who cannot get them from active players?.

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Originally by: Tycho Straun

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Originally by: maralt

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What do you have against ppl who go afk while cloaked and how does it matter if they do apart from giving ppl ship kills who cannot get them from active players?.

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I don't have anything against people who go AFK while cloaked. I do it myself on a daily basis. But I though EVE was about player vs. player and the current setup doesn't allow for cat and mouse hunting of cloaked ships.

As proof you'll see that after reading the concerns about people who need to cloak to go AFK, I modded the proposal to limit the scan's range to on grid only and suggested a very quick solution (warp to a random moon) that would pretty much guarantee they will be safe. I really don't see someone going around dropping probes at every planet and moon in an attempt to get a 30 KM hit on some random guy who was passing through the system but had to AFK to Concord his kids or de-aggro their spouse.

Also, I realized the detection formula I proposed will make any cloaked frigate invisible so... Lets mod the formula that if ship has covops cloak do not report, if its any other type of cloak set accuracy to 40 km (down to 30 w/ good skills). We're also going to have to remove sig radius from the formula, as (I assume) cloaked Titans on gates will be too easy to find...

Edit: Greyscale, I've never used them, but will talk tonight w/ Corp Mates who do. Decoupling sig rad from the accuracy formula, might address the issue, or we can RP/Tech explain they can't be used to find cloaked ships (any cloak blocks all ladar / gravimetric waves)

Edit2: Actually I'm proposing a "new" probe be created. Like a snoop, but shorter range (500 km) and it only can find cloaked ships, fires from recon launcher. Though I'm not sure if programatically it would be easier (for you) to mod the existing probes or make a new copy of the snoop and tweak it for cloak spotting

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Originally by: Tycho Straun

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Agreed Greyscale, its a special tool for a special case proposal. I wanted to try to come up with a way to make finding cloaked ship possible, but not probable. And I accepted the two requirements that cloaked ships would be basically unfindable if a player had to go AFK for a bit (under an hour) or if they bothered to actually SS in deep space. Let me study exploration probes a bit and try to come up with a idea for all probes.

Thanks for the discussions.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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And at this point we've gone from "make cloaked ships probeable" to "make cloaked ships probeable provided you use a special short-range probe which is special-cased in the code", and it doesn't help with AFK cloakers since they're generally in deep space That's not to say it couldn't be part of a solution, it's just that the more you think about this sort of issue the less straightforward it usually gets...

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Originally by: Eleana Tomelac

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Stationary? The alt can be moving straight and cloaked, being stationary means nothing...

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Originally by: Tycho Straun

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I don't have anything against people who go AFK while cloaked. I do it myself on a daily basis. But I though EVE was about player vs. player and the current setup doesn't allow for cat and mouse hunting of cloaked ships.

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Originally by: Zirator

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Best solution would be to change it in such a way that cloaks consume liquid ozone or a cloaking fuel sold by various npc groups.

Of course this should be done in such a way that this penalty doesn't apply to ships that are meant to cloak like cov ops, stealth bombers etc.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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One of my concerns with just making cloaked ships probeable with any decent degree of accuracy is the impact it has on using covert ops as fleet warp-in points. If you can get within 15km of the cloaked ship, you can get an interdictor right on top of the incoming fleet with minimal effort. Also, consider the current balance between recon probes and exploration probes, particularly WRT sensor strengths and resulting signal strengths.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, see that is the thing, it really is that simple.
...

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Originally by: Goumindong

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So you have to scan the cov-ops out without him knowing it in 30 seconds, warp the cov-ops on their cov-ops. Warp the dictor to the landed cov-ops. And dictor the still cloaked cov-ops all at the right time to catch a warping fleet and without the cov-ops noticing or flying too far for the bubble to miss the fleet?[or your dictor has a probe and it takes longer than 30 seconds]

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Exactly what is the "problem" that is caused by these cloakers? If they are afk they certainly aren't bothering anyone. They pay for the right to be logged in 23x7, just like anyone else.

If they are not afk, they have significant penalties for operating the cloak and they are probably very outnumbered and a small mistake will cost them a ship.

This entire topic sounds like bullies looking for a bigger advantage over the little guy.

Cloaking isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.

Fly safe.

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Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri

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Exactly what is the "problem" that is caused by these cloakers? If they are afk they certainly aren't bothering anyone. They pay for the right to be logged in 23x7, just like anyone else.

If they are not afk, they have significant penalties for operating the cloak and they are probably very outnumbered and a small mistake will cost them a ship.

This entire topic sounds like bullies looking for a bigger advantage over the little guy.

Cloaking isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.

Fly safe.

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, see that is the thing, it really is that simple.
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Yes it is, namely: remove cloaked ships from local, both ways (i.e. cloaker will not see local either).


P.S. This post is only aimed at people who think it's "that simple".

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Originally by: Abyss Wyrm

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Originally by: Goumindong

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So you have to scan the cov-ops out without him knowing it in 30 seconds, warp the cov-ops on their cov-ops. Warp the dictor to the landed cov-ops. And dictor the still cloaked cov-ops all at the right time to catch a warping fleet and without the cov-ops noticing or flying too far for the bubble to miss the fleet?[or your dictor has a probe and it takes longer than 30 seconds]

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How about co-ops seting covert cyno??
And yes, If you warp near the bubble, and your warp vecotor came through bubble, you'll get cuaught in bubble anyway, even if you said warp to 100km.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, removing cloaked ships from local is stupid, just as stupid as removing local. It skews the game much to far from the defender to the attacker and invalidates any effort anyone has done to secure their space.

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, removing cloaked ships from local is stupid, just as stupid as removing local. It skews the game much to far from the defender to the attacker and invalidates any effort anyone has done to secure their space.

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Just as stupid as cloaked ships showing up in local and probes scanning down cloaked ships on top of that. It skews the game much to far from the wise pilots to the mindless blobs and invalidates any effort anyone has done to try to stay covert.

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No, you can still stay covert, you just can't do it while you are AFK.

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Currently there is pretty much no effort involved in cloaking. I can take any ship and be 100% safe anywhere for any amount of time simply by training one skill and sticking a cloak on whatever ship i want.

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No, cloaking is stupidly easy and provide utterly ridiculous benefits to the person using it. It makes for a bad game and should be nerfed to hell and back.

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The ability of any ship to be 100% safe from everything while logged on is unacceptable[cloaks not being able to be scanned].

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Ever heard of docking and POS'es ?

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Originally by: AKULA UrQuan

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Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 05/04/2008 23:08:22
First off. Covert ops frigates are one of the harder ships to probe out when they're uncloaked. Gets better when the pilot (me for example) does something goofy like toss in a T2 backup array in a low slot. Good luck probeing him then much less getting a zero error scan.

Second. Any competent covert pilot isn't going to be sitting still at 0m/s when AFK. He's going to be putting along on normal drives in a random direction 6+ AUs away from any solar object.

Third. WTZ isn't. It has an error range of -/+2,500 meters best I can tell. If you don't decloak him on warpin now what? If the target is moveing you get to try again.

Last. Most of these, so called, AFK coverts arn't as AFK as you would like to think.

So yeah. Allow for probeing cloakers. Only people that are getting caught are the clueless ones.

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Yes, covert. With my face shining up in local. Sure.

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No, logging off is stupidly easy and provide utterly ridiculous benefits to the person using it. It makes for a bad game and should be nerfed to hell and back.

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Yes, ever heard of sieging and dreadnoughts?

None of these things are invulnerable, you always have the option of getting together a force and knocking it down and taking it for yourself.

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Yup. Sorry, but imperfect role play is the price payed for balance.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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When you cloak for 23/7 you invalidate the work that people have done defending space. Because of your complete impunity this removes any form of intel that the defenders can do to protect themselves. As a rule, its pretty much impossible to defend ratters and miners from attack, someone will die with just a small amount of gank before your defense gang will be able to lock and apply logistics.

A good example of this working in the game is when PL ruined the RIT triangle for rise. And i don't mean "they kinda got in the way" i mean, they went there, cloaked, and killed an entire alliances production and morale to the point that some of the most heavily defended and isolated space in the game fell as soon as a modicum of pressure was applied.

The key? There was nothing that the alliance of 1000 could do to kill the cloakers in their systems

Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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...
No, see that is the thing, it really is that simple.
...
[/quote
Guerrillas and saboteurs exist in real life, why they shouldnt be allowed in EVE?
I actualy dont like the idea that cyno jammer able to jamm covert cyno. Would be more sence if covert cyno will be able to operate under in system wit cyno jammer.

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No, removing cloaked ships from local is stupid, just as stupid as removing local. It skews the game much to far from the defender to the attacker and invalidates any effort anyone has done to secure their space.

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It will make game more hardcore like, and less arcade. I dont wont any changes thats make EVE like WoW (for example).
Removing cloaker from local will be great change. IMHO stealth wars should be boosted alot.
Adapt to survive...

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Only if you start the warp while the bubble is up and only if your vector goes through the bubble and only if the warp in point is within 150km of the bubble.

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If dictor will drop bubble (or HiC start it) at close proximity to co-ops, the fleet vector will go through bubble anyway, no matter from what location they warp, and so everyone will be caught in bubble anyway

Originally by: Goumindong

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None of these things are invulnerable, you always have the option of getting together a force and knocking it down and taking it for yourself.

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Originally by: Lem2J

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Just add a reactivation timer or have cloaks.. e.g. they need to go offline after an hour, for recalibration.

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Originally by: Abyss Wyrm

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Guerrillas and saboteurs exist in real life, why they shouldnt be allowed in EVE?
I actualy dont like the idea that cyno jammer able to jamm covert cyno. Would be more sence if covert cyno will be able to operate under in system wit cyno jammer.[/uote]

Spaceships capable of traveling faster than the speed of light don't exist in real life, why should they be allowed in eve?

Covert cynos being jammed by cyno jammers is another issue altogether and not something relating to cloaking. The specific problem is that cyno jammers exist to make capital movement more complicated and part of overall strategy, and covert cynos can't bring in capital ships. So the jammers are doing more than their fair share.

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It will make game more hardcore like, and less arcade. I dont wont any changes thats make EVE like WoW (for example).
Removing cloaker from local will be great change. IMHO stealth wars should be boosted alot.
Adapt to survive...

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This is not an argument. Letting people probe cloakers will not make eve any less hardcore or more arcade or more like WoW. If anything, the ability to be perfectly safe in any space for any amount of time is a mechanic that has made eve less hardcore, because anyone can just cloak and not have to worry about any force ever.

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If dictor will drop bubble (or HiC start it) at close proximity to co-ops, the fleet vector will go through bubble anyway, no matter from what location they warp, and so everyone will be caught in bubble anyway

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I just freaking explained this to you. You are only caught in a bubble when

1: Your vector overlaps the bubble
2: Your warp in point is within 150km of the bubble
3: Your warp in point is on the same grid as the bubble
4: You initiate warp while the bubble is active

4 is the key here, if you don't initiate warp while the bubble is active the bubble wont pull you out of warp, you might land in it, but you would have been landing in it anyway.

So, in order to catch the incoming gang you have to put the bubble up after the cov-ops tells the FC its safe to warp in. But before the FC gang warps, or tells people to warp and they warp, and before the cov-ops cancels the warp order because the bubble is up. This is a very small window to get a bubble on a cov-ops and would pretty much require omniscience, or a very good spy[because you have to be aware of the warp in time to scan the cov-ops down, warp to the result and then warp a dictor to the result which they can then bubble]

Originally by: Abyss Wyrm

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Originally by: Goumindong

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None of these things are invulnerable, you always have the option of getting together a force and knocking it down and taking it for yourself.

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Stations not invulnerable?)
And how many stations you destroyed already?

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Stations are not invulnerable, though you don't destroy them you take them for your own. Assets in them are essentially lost.

Originally by: Vadimik

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But cloaks aren't invulnerable either, it's the cloaked ship you can't do anything about.

Same story with docked or POS'ed ship.

You can't do anything unless he undocks.

You can't do anything unless he uncloaks (well, or unless you wait for after DT when he will be forced to log on and be cloakless for some time thereafter).

You can't do anything unless he leaves POS field (well, or unless he sits there for 1,5-2 days it takes to take the POS down).

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Yes, you can, you can bubble the POS and siege it, not only destroying the POS, but also destroying anything that attempts to come in, attempts to leave, or anything that was in the shields at the time of the destruction.

Ditto stations. You're right, the target could log off and never log on again and never undock[being unable to fit, clone, repair etc]

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Ok, if keeping you covert is a kind of "RP side-effect" of a covert ops cloak, what's it's "main effect" ?

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To be a tactical tool in the operation and prosecution of combat.
http://eve-files.com/dl/154147
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Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]

Originally by: maralt

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This is just another try for carebears and ppl who travel in 0.0 without proper protection to make it safer and has nothing to do with afk cloakers. Its about giving ppl the ability to probe out hostile scouts on gates and cloaking gangs camping systems looking for kills. The cloakers who go afk for maybe a RL issue are no threat and would be at best an easy kill for prober's while an active player would be able to warp off.

Cloaks already have enough negative effects and do not need to be probable unless your a carebear looking for easier travel through low sec or 0.0 or a crappy pvper looking for easy kills.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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This is just another try for carebears and ppl who travel in 0.0 without proper protection to make it safer and has nothing to do with afk cloakers. Its about giving ppl the ability to probe out hostile scouts on gates and cloaking gangs camping systems looking for kills. The cloakers who go afk for maybe a RL issue are no threat and would be at best an easy kill for prober's while an active player would be able to warp off.

Cloaks already have enough negative effects and do not need to be probable unless your a carebear looking for easier travel through low sec or 0.0 or a crappy pvper looking for easy kills.

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Tell that to Rise, i am sure that they think that AFK cloakers are totally not a problem ever.

Oh wait, you can't, the entire alliance was killed by AFK cloakers.

Its about giving people the ability to defend their space.

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Originally by: maralt

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Defend space?, just how much dps does an AFK cloaker put out that they can wipe out an entire alliance?.

If an alliance dies because of AFK cloakers then it deserved to die, you really want eve to be played in uber easy mode don't ya bud?.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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Defend space?, just how much dps does an AFK cloaker put out that they can wipe out an entire alliance?.

If an alliance dies because of AFK cloakers then it deserved to die, you really want eve to be played in uber easy mode don't ya bud?.

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If you can't make money you can defend your space. We have dedicated forces that essentially sit in all the good ratting and mining systems of the enemy cloaked all day. They're invulnerable and the risks of deploying ratters and miners goes up so far its not ever worth it.

Your last comment is especially funny because cloaks are the "uber easy mode" They only fight when they want, the mechanics make intelligence gathering useless and they don't fight their own.

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Yes, you can, you can bubble the POS and siege it, not only destroying the POS, but also destroying anything that attempts to come in, attempts to leave, or anything that was in the shields at the time of the destruction.

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Ditto stations. You're right, the target could log off and never log on again and never undock[being unable to fit, clone, repair etc]

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If you can't make money you can defend your space. We have dedicated forces that essentially sit in all the good ratting and mining systems of the enemy cloaked all day. They're invulnerable and the risks of deploying ratters and miners goes up so far its not ever worth it.

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Ok, if keeping you covert is a kind of "RP side-effect" of a covert ops cloak, what's it's "main effect" ?

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To be a tactical tool in the operation and prosecution of combat.

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Originally by: maralt

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So you think that your miners cannot or should not be guarded and that hostiles in your systems that cannot dock or be safe anywhere should sit in a system outnumbered and get probed down and killed?. Also that every fight they start could be a potential trap?.

I think you should take yourself to empire buddy cos 0.0 is to rough for you it seems, and planning and team work seem totally beyond you.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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So you think that your miners cannot or should not be guarded and that hostiles in your systems that cannot dock or be safe anywhere should sit in a system outnumbered and get probed down and killed?. Also that every fight they start could be a potential trap?.

I think you should take yourself to empire buddy cos 0.0 is to rough for you it seems, and planning and team work seem totally beyond you.

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That miners cannot be guarded is not an issue of should. Its an issue of cost, ability, and the lack of contiguous battlefields.

No, they should not stick around waiting to get killed. They should either be active in which case they wont be killed, they should leave, or log.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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That miners cannot be guarded is not an issue of should. Its an issue of cost, ability, and the lack of contiguous battlefields.

No, they should not stick around waiting to get killed. They should either be active in which case they wont be killed, they should leave, or log.

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Originally by: Vadimik

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And the target inside the POS can log off and disappear long before you finish the POS off, no matter how many bubbles you drop aroud it. And then log on right after DT and warp away.

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Cloakers you are so worried about can fit, clone and repair while cloaked ?

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You are saying that you managed to deny your enemy all profits by placing afk cloakers in his systems... Who exactly are you fighting, some religious sects that are forbidden by oaths from anything that is not a perfectly refined absolutely risk-free carebearing ?

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Ok, if keeping you covert is a kind of "RP side-effect" of a covert ops cloak, what's it's "main effect" ?

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To be a tactical tool in the operation and prosecution of combat.

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Your ability to make statements that don't actually mean anything is quite admirable.

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Originally by: maralt

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0.0 should be just like empire then huh dud?. Nice and safe for carebears......

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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0.0 should be just like empire then huh dud?. Nice and safe for carebears......

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No, why do you want to make safer than empire? Nice and safe for suicide gankers except they don't even have to lose their ships?

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Originally by: maralt

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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0.0 should be just like empire then huh dud?. Nice and safe for carebears......

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No, why do you want to make safer than empire? Nice and safe for suicide gankers except they don't even have to lose their ships?

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Do mining ops with guards/ewar and logistics and deal with life in 0.0 or go back to empire.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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0.0 should be just like empire then huh dud?. Nice and safe for carebears......

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No, why do you want to make safer than empire? Nice and safe for suicide gankers except they don't even have to lose their ships?

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Do mining ops with guards/ewar and logistics and deal with life in 0.0 or go back to empire.

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You will lose hulks before you can move forces, you will need to protect the gang for a portion of time wildly disproportionate than the effort needed to kill those miners.

The cost of fielding the forces to do this actually means that you would be more profitable mining in empire.

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Originally by: maralt

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If you cannot organize a good guarded and profitable mining op you should go back to empire tbh. Cos it costs nothing to sit in a belt in around miners in a pvp or logistic ship.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: maralt

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If you cannot organize a good guarded and profitable mining op you should go back to empire tbh. Cos it costs nothing to sit in a belt in around miners in a pvp or logistic ship.

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Yea, and you can sell your ore for whatever you want and still make money because "i mined it myself"

Do you understand the concept of opportunity cost?

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No, they can scan, move, identify, and prepare to attack targets.

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Not all risks are the same, and if you make the action risky enough, then the payoff for making that choice becomes a negative.

This means that optimal play becomes to not ever produce because taking that action will, on average, return a loss on the operation. Furthermore, lower risk options such as mission running in empire easily become more profitable

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you will use it to hide your force size and strength

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give tactical measures for entering a battle based on time
provide an faster way to enter the battlefield from a non-combat location than warping

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Originally by: maralt

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More than you seem to understand team work it seems, 0.0 is not supposed to be safe especially in war time but your whining about not being able to work solo in belts in the most hostile areas in eve while at war.... are you for real?????.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No one is saying that 0.0 is supposed to be safe, which is exactly why cloaking is such a problem

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Oh noes, a covert ops can actually rely intel and a force recon can actually warp cloaked...

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If someone finds the risks of 0.0 too great, he is free to leave. Others will come and take his place. Only if I see systems actually going empty forever due to afk cloakers in them, and going empty on a massive scale, I'll admit that there might be an issue.

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Hide your forces ? How, if you still show up in local ?

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So the only role of a covert ops cloak is to provide warp-ins in the short gap of time you have before you have been scanned down ?

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Edited by: Vadimik on 06/04/2008 21:35:35
Ok, so now it burns down to really afk cloakers again ?

The guys that are not at the keyboard, and those mere shadows in local scare people to death.

I said it before and I'll say it now:

The only reason why afk cloaking works is cause people metagame by using local in a way CCP never intended, and the only thing afk cloakers do is metagame the said people back.

If someone can't deal with drawbacks of metagaming tactics they use, last thing CCP should do is sort out bugs they have spawned inside their own heads.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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What happens to the game without that ability?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Ok, so now it burns down to really afk cloakers again ?

The guys that are not at the keyboard, and those mere shadows in local scare people to death.

I said it before and I'll say it now:

The only reason why afk cloaking works is cause people metagame by using local in a way CCP never intended, and the only thing afk cloakers do is metagame the said people back.

If someone can't deal with drawbacks of metagaming tactics they use, last thing CCP should do is sort out bugs they have spawned inside their own heads.

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What happens to the game without that ability?

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Edited by: Vadimik on 06/04/2008 21:40:58

Originally by: Goumindong

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What happens to the game without that ability?

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It becomes a better place free of at least some of lame-*** metagaming.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, try again, this time try to include the actions that players might take and the effect these actions would have on the game.

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, try again, this time try to include the actions that players might take and the effect these actions would have on the game.

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That's exactly how I came to my conclusion.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 06/04/2008 22:14:22
That is not an argument with regards to what would happen if that mechanic changed.

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 06/04/2008 22:14:22
That is not an argument with regards to what would happen if that mechanic changed.

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I have already clearly stated my opinion on what would happen if that mechanic is changed.

And, thankfully, I'm not going to try to persuade anyone that my opinion on something that is yet to happen is the only possible truth. You just can't know for sure about things that have not happened yet.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Opinion without inference is not worth anything. What is the inference, what leads you to believe that this would be the result. What actions to you believe players would take that would make this change do what you say?

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Opinion without inference is not worth anything. What is the inference, what leads you to believe that this would be the result. What actions to you believe players would take that would make this change do what you say?

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Players will play without relying on a chat tab as a main source of intel, covert ships will actually become covert, players that can't play unless they are given total safety will move to highsec or out of EvE. That's to name a few things.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Opinion without inference is not worth anything. What is the inference, what leads you to believe that this would be the result. What actions to you believe players would take that would make this change do what you say?

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Players will play without relying on a chat tab as a main source of intel, covert ships will actually become covert, players that can't play unless they are given total safety will move to highsec or out of EvE. That's to name a few things.

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But what will they do and what choices will they make?

Are you so dense that you can not understand the concept of choice?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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But what will they do and what choices will they make?

Are you so dense that you can not understand the concept of choice?

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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But what will they do and what choices will they make?

Are you so dense that you can not understand the concept of choice?

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They will do whatever they feel like doing, most likely - adapt, or die.

For the second time in only this thread you resort to personal attack to try to invalidate my point.

There is nothing I can do to argue the "you just don't perceive it the way I do" position.

I'm done having any meaningful conversation with you, next time try not to resort to "think about it till you see I'm right" style (that is, if you want to actually have a discussion).

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Originally by: maralt

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Anyway on topic, the local chat already give ppl a heads up as to what is in the system and also tells you what alliance they are with along with sec status and age. To allow probes to find cloaked ships would only hurt those who were genuinely afk for a real emergency while those hunting outnumbered in a hostile system would just be blobbed as cloaking is there only way of being safe.

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: maralt

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Anyway on topic, the local chat already give ppl a heads up as to what is in the system and also tells you what alliance they are with along with sec status and age. To allow probes to find cloaked ships would only hurt those who were genuinely afk for a real emergency while those hunting outnumbered in a hostile system would just be blobbed as cloaking is there only way of being safe.

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I just want to stress again that there is nothing wrong with the idea of probes being able to find ships that are not intended to cloak, if (and that's the big "if") the said ships no longer show in local (nor do they show on any other instant scanners). That way probbers will be forced to actually take their chances and guess where his target is, and if the said target is still "there" at all. Best part, there would be no way to be sure that there is not a player out there until you have actually scanned the system down.

Even then probing for cloaked ship should not be fast, easy or reliable.


P.S. The deal with cloaking atm is that it actually balances out local abuses. If you "nerf" cloaking, things with local will become much worse.

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Originally by: Vadimik

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Originally by: Goumindong

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But what will they do and what choices will they make?

Are you so dense that you can not understand the concept of choice?

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They will do whatever they feel like doing, most likely - adapt, or die.

For the second time in only this thread you resort to personal attack to try to invalidate my point.

There is nothing I can do to argue the "you just don't perceive it the way I do" position.

I'm done having any meaningful conversation with you, next time try not to resort to "think about it till you see I'm right" style (that is, if you want to actually have a discussion).

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For the second time in only this thread you resort to personal attack to try to invalidate my point.

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Originally by: maralt

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Ignore him bud my kids went through the why, why, why stage as well if you keep answering he will keep asking.

Anyway on topic, the local chat already give ppl a heads up as to what is in the system and also tells you what alliance they are with along with sec status and age. To allow probes to find cloaked ships would only hurt those who were genuinely afk for a real emergency while those hunting outnumbered in a hostile system would just be blobbed as cloaking is there only way of being safe.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Why is it needed at all other than to make 0.0 more like empire and force ppl in cloaked combat ships to bounce around system all day instead of just cloaking to avoid getting blobbed, until a target is around. I see no benefit in it unless im a miner in 0.0 looking for an easy time of it.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Edited by: Ulstan on 07/04/2008 20:25:02
Just change local so you have no way of knowing who else is there with you.

Now you will never worry about that afk cloaker somewhere because you don't know that he's even there@!

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Other way around, you would be forced to play as if he were there all the time.

Lack of information =/= the knowledge of absence.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 07/04/2008 21:27:28

Originally by: Goumindong

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Other way around, you would be forced to play as if he were there all the time.

Lack of information =/= the knowledge of absence.

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PPL should be playing like that in a war zone anyway, empire is for the ppl who need security for themselves and consequences for the aggressors/attackers for free.

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Originally by: Agnemon

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Make it possible to probe cloakers, the degree of probe ability scaled to the ships cloak ability (Cov- Ops significantly harder to probe than haulers with a cloak)
Add a third tier of cloaking, skill and module based that allows you to put a cov-ops cloak into a deep cloak state, unable to be probed but stiff penalties, no warping, massive speed hit, significant recalibration hit when moving out of deep cloak into standard cloak mode, only available on covert ops cloaks, or as a faction cloak.

I could make all sorts of comments about super hero hauler gankers in cloaked recons, but I won't

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Originally by: Commander 598

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Edited by: Commander 598 on 08/04/2008 02:41:52
How are AFK cloakers a problem if they're AFK?

(Also, not voting Goumindong for CSM due to this issue.)

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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PPL should be playing like that in a war zone anyway, empire is for the ppl who need security for themselves and consequences for the aggressors/attackers for free.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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So 0.0 should be like empire if you fit a cloak? I thought 0.0 was for people who are acting like its a warzone?.

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Originally by: Tycho Straun

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...afk cloakers are a pain and not what I think CCP had in mind.

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Originally by: Derrys

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What I'd like to see:

1) All cloakers removed from local while cloaked, unless they talk.

2) Non-covert cloakers unable to see local while cloaked. I'd like to remove local altogether, but one thing at a time.

3) Non-covert cloakers unable to use the directional scanner or scan probes while cloaked.

4) A special scan probe which will find the location of any non-covert cloaker on the current grid, with 30km or so accuracy (so that stealth bombers have a fighting chance of not getting caught).


This makes non-covert cloaking dangerous to use for intelligence-gathering, which, in my opinion, is the way it should be. Gathering intel and creating warp-in points while remaining completely undetectable should be the role of specialized ships, not any old boat with a spare highslot.

It also makes cloaking at a safespot equivalent to just logging off, except without the danger of being probed out during the logoff timer. I think that's an acceptable advantage, since they had to use up a highslot and take some pretty severe targeting penalties in order to fit the cloak.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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So your idea really has nothing to do with afk cloakers as they can just cloak in a mid point and go afk

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Originally by: Derrys

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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So your idea really has nothing to do with afk cloakers as they can just cloak in a mid point and go afk

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They could also log and go afk; same thing except a cloak uses a slot and gimps targeting.

My proposal seriously nerfs afk cloaking. If you cloak off-grid, sure, nobody can see you, but you can't see anybody else either. You have no idea if they're still in system, or where, or in what ships. Hard to spring a trap that way, or even know when it's safe to decloak.

And if you cloak on-grid, then you can see what's going on, but you put your ship at risk. I think it would be pretty balanced.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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So im right its about nerfing on grid gate scouts who have not finished training for cov ops yet.

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TBH i do not see the point of it apart from popping the occasional noob gate scout.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Fitting a cloak and heading into hostile space where you are massively outnumbered and every gank could be a trap is treating it like a war zone.

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What happens when a lot of people fit cloaks?

Now you're in hostile space where you are massively outnumbering the enemy and they can't retaliate...

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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If, what, how, lol get out of your armchair and go kill stuff and get some xp in pvp. What part of every gank could be a trap did you not understand?. And why would a large blob that outnumbered the guys need cloaks?.

If the cloakers stay cloaked they are no threat but if they uncloak to attack they get targeting penalties that allow a aligned ship to warp out, and also stand a very good chance of getting ganked themselves if its a trap or the guy is guarded.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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It still seems pointless apart from making solo ratting/mining in 0.0 safe and that should not happen.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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If, what, how, lol get out of your armchair and go kill stuff and get some xp in pvp. What part of every gank could be a trap did you not understand?. And why would a large blob that outnumbered the guys need cloaks?.

If the cloakers stay cloaked they are no threat but if they uncloak to attack they get targeting penalties that allow a aligned ship to warp out, and also stand a very good chance of getting ganked themselves if its a trap or the guy is guarded.

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O.K. so in order to kill you, the enemy needs to have enough forces deployed so that they can set traps 23/7 and be able to get enough forces to the target before you kill it without tipping you off or letting you escape?

Do you even play this game?

Either they will see you coming and leave, kill your bait before you arrive, or you have to use cloaking ships and maintain a vigil in order to win.

Its a ridiculous onus.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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If the attackers are ready and willing to hit ships in the system 24/7 why should the defenders be able to ignore them and continue to mine?. So yes when hostiles are in system they should have guards if they wanna carebear, welcome to 0.0 btw its not supposed to be safe to solo mine or rat.

Yes i play the game and have done since 2003 but i do not play it or wish to play it in easy mode like you do it seems.

1. If they leave before i arrive then i win cos im there to mine or rat so im still making money.

2. If they kill my bait/carebear its my fault for planning the trap or guarding badly

3. Most corps/alliances use cloakers but for summat like this a close pos is enough for guarding the carebear or even sitting on grid uncloaked as deterrent will work.

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Yes i play the game and have done since 2003 but i do not play it or wish to play it in easy mode like you do it seems.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Because the attackers don't have to be ready and willing to attack 23/7. They only need to be ready and willing to attack when they want and where they want. They could be making dinner for all it mattered. But because they could be ready to attack and there is no indication of change, the defenders must act like they are

So the defenders have to defend 23/7 and the attackers have to do nothing.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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1. No, if you leave before they arrive you tie, because they still have to defend and have caused you no damage .

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Originally by: Goumindong

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2. Or the cloakers simply have more force than you.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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3. No its not. Because you have cost involved in defending these ops. Not only is it not fun, but since you could be mining you are losing money. It only makes sense if those folks are AFK. But if they are AFK they are not doing their job.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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With miners its that even with forces on grid, a cloaking gang will be able to destroy a hulk before you can respond.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Welcome to being on the offensive in war, you get to choose when and where you fight its great ain't it

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I said if they leave before my forces/trap arrive's are you blind?. So the ability to continue to make isk is a win.

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Only a moron rats/mines with a larger hostile force camped in local, cloaked or not

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So you make less cos of paying the security neededRolling Eyes my heart bleeds for the rich carebears

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Logistics, ewar, dpsShocked guarding your miners ftw (hey look a balanced and mixed fleet wins again).

The things im defending are only low risk if your facing total morons so skill up, team up and suck it up.ugh

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 19:51:24

1 hour reinforcment timers?. lol just lol.

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The guards can be paid for there time you make less but you all make summat the cloaker does not= you win.

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If the cloaker is afk you are making money and so are your guards, and he is not = you win.

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Your alliance should have enough ppl to defend your carebears in carebear ops from cloakers or they suck and you should find another alliance, btw ive never seen a huge cloaker blob camping a system so please stop with the arm chair what ifs its silly.

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Profits are never less mining or ratting in 0.0 than in empire stop drama queening but yes the risks should be a lot higher hence the guards needed.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Tell that to Rise...

oh wait, you can't because we used this tactic to run them out of 0.0 space.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Tell that to Rise...

oh wait, you can't because we used this tactic to run them out of 0.0 space.

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Lol if it works against any alliance they do not deserve the title or to be in 0.0.

Are BOB gonna be moving to jita in the near future cos of your afk cloakers?.

I don't think so.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Tell that to Rise...

oh wait, you can't because we used this tactic to run them out of 0.0 space.

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Lol if it works against any alliance they do not deserve the title or to be in 0.0.

Are BOB gonna be moving to jita in the near future cos of your afk cloakers?.

I don't think so.

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Only because of the strength of tech 2 BPOs. But if we can keep their moons down they will run out of money. Its already started to a point as they have attempted to shore up their alliance by grabbing who they can from others who don't have access to those resources.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 08/04/2008 21:04:27
they didn't move to empire, they dissolved and got absorbed by other alliances not quite so close to be assaulted. Also, note that i did not say they would move to empire, i said that they would do better in empire... But really...

http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=RISE

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Please elucidate on how you can organize this mining op around a large gang of cloaking ships.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 21:31:17

Originally by: Goumindong

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Please elucidate on how you can organize this mining op around a large gang of cloaking ships.

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Figure it out for yourself its easy and obvious to anybody who does not need ccp to fight for them, cos im tired of talking to a liar who's arguments are those of a child.

If i get a ban for saying this, fine its worth it.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 08/04/2008 21:31:17

Originally by: Goumindong

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Please elucidate on how you can organize this mining op around a large gang of cloaking ships.

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Figure it out for yourself its easy and obvious to anybody who does not need ccp to fight for them, cos im tired of talking to a liar who's arguments are those of a child.

If i get a ban for saying this, fine its worth it.

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So again, no proof. And if its so easy, why could an alliance of 1000 not do it?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, proof that you can organize a mining op that can defend against said cloakers as you claim.

You can't make the cloakers leave, and mining with them in local is stupid, so what do you do?

Hell, i am willing to accept a thought experiment on the issue.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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So you are saying that all anyone has to do to stop production is park some folks AFK and stick cloaks on their ships?

That seems so balanced, that you can just go and disrupt enemy production without risk.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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No your claiming that remember, im saying that ppl need to and can be be defended while they mine/rat, or evenShockedShocked move to another system and guard the gates.

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Originally by: You, the last freaking post before the above quote

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Why so you can fly a imaginary cloaked blob on top of my solo frig guard, if a blob is in local do not carebear how hard is that to understand?.

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You idea favors the blob (what a surpriseRolling Eyes from a goon) as without cloaking small squads will not be able to be in systems outnumbered.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Cost that pushes return under opportunity cost of producing in empire is unreasonable.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Per person, not per account. 20m/hour is at the top end of possible in empire in the same config as what you would be running in 0.0 iirc[and mineral prices havent gone down at more]

But you are not constrained to mining which is why i said "not including LP", because 20m/hour is fairly easy for mission running.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You don't need a rorq, you just need any command ship.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You don't need a rorq, you just need any command ship.

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Its about profit bud remember and a rorq cannot be used in empire.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You don't need a rorq, you just need any command ship.

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Its about profit bud remember and a rorq cannot be used in empire.

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Yes, and the difference between the rorq and the cs is not very significant.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You don't need a rorq, you just need any command ship.

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Its about profit bud remember and a rorq cannot be used in empire.

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Originally by: YetAnotherTradeAlt

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You don't need a rorq, you just need any command ship.

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Its about profit bud remember and a rorq cannot be used in empire.

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Yes. I'm alt posting. If you can use an obvious alt, so can I.

Tell me sir, do you own space? One of the main points of being able to control space in general is to keep it safe from random roving enemies. If you can't keep it under control (read as: clear out any threats to your Sovereignty there), then your Sovereignty is little more than a dot on the map.

Now, what would you do if Goonswarm stuck 20 ships in every one of your systems, at random safespots, and cloaked them? They engage when they want to, they have intel on your every move in your space (from the cloakers in your OTHER systems running directional scans). And if they do not want to engage, you can do NOTHING about them, but you must always take them into account.

Tell me, how do you intend to profit off your space (which is costing you goodly sums in POS fuel and the logistics chains to keep you supplied)? Hell, how do you intend to HOLD your space? Guard everyone? Guarding ops against attacks that will not come to a horde of guards is both boring as hell and vastly lowers your potential profits. Worse, many of the ships you would guard are so paper thin that its entirely possible to show up, kill one of them and be gone before anyone can really react.

Now, I want you to define opportunity cost, in your own words. You have yet to demonstrate a basic grasp of this economic principle. Then tell me the opportunity cost of living with cloaked ships in your space to you, and the opportunity cost of leaving a 6 month old alt with a cloaked frigate AFK in your enemies space when you're not using another character on that account.

Now tell me how well that jives with the risk-reward arguments thrown around on these forums so much.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You're dodging his question.

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Originally by: YetAnotherTradeAlt

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Now, what would you do if Goonswarm stuck 20 ships in every one of your systems, at random safespots, and cloaked them? They engage when they want to, they have intel on your every move in your space (from the cloakers in your OTHER systems running directional scans). And if they do not want to engage, you can do NOTHING about them, but you must always take them into account.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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random stuff...

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Here was my answer

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Here was my answer

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No, that was you telling him that he and all alliances suck. That was not telling him what you would do if it happened.

And no, you can't keep miners alive with logistics, they will be volleyed before the cycle time resets on your shield boosters[via target switching]

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Its not the DPS you have to worry about, its changing targets. But no, it wouldn't. 20 6 month old alts can be doing around 400 DPS apiece in cruiser sized ships [and ewaring you right back], so you're looking at ~8000 DPS +/- ewar.

ed: "I put a logistics in the belt" is not an answer. Its like saying "oh i just defend them"

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Originally by: Goumindong

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How do you keep your ships in range of the roids and cans?

Aligning is a great tactic ratting in a raven, not so much for mining

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Originally by: Audri Fisher

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On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 09/04/2008 18:53:08

Originally by: Goumindong

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How do you keep your ships in range of the roids and cans?

Aligning is a great tactic ratting in a raven, not so much for mining

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eve uni give lessons on how to use a scanner its easy and it lets you know when bad men are coming and when to start moving bud.. maybe you should join and learn stuff before you make silly attempts to correct ppl who actually know stuff.

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Originally by: YetAnotherTradeAlt

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Now, I want you to define opportunity cost, in your own words. You have yet to demonstrate a basic grasp of this economic principle. Then tell me the opportunity cost of living with cloaked ships in your space to you, and the opportunity cost of leaving a 6 month old alt with a cloaked frigate AFK in your enemies space when you're not using another character on that account.

Now tell me how well that jives with the risk-reward arguments thrown around on these forums so much.

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Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes

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Nothing wrong with cloaks, nothing wrong with being afk cloaked. Something wrong with you knowing someone is there cloaked.

Nerf local, not cloaks.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 09/04/2008 22:28:51

If another alliance is looking to kill yours this is what happens in 0.0 pal, now if you want me to tell you how to make as much isk in a 0.0 warzone as you can in a stable non warzone 0.0 system then il honestly say i cannot, but i have not tried too, ive just told you how alliances have dealt with it in the past.

But that is 0.0 for you if your at war buddy, everybody has had to deal with cloakers in the past either by doing fully organized alliance mining ops or by spending isk on other assets that generate isk like moons or BPO's.

Welcome to 0.0 great ain't it now stop crying and deal with it, or go back to empire.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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If another alliance is looking to kill yours this is what happens in 0.0 pal, now if you want me to tell you how to make as much isk in a 0.0 warzone as you can in a stable non warzone 0.0 system then il honestly say i cannot, but i have not tried too, ive just told you how alliances have dealt with it in the past.

But that is 0.0 for you if your at war buddy, everybody has had to deal with cloakers in the past either by doing fully organized alliance mining ops or by spending isk on other assets that generate isk like moons or BPO's.

Welcome to 0.0 great ain't it now stop crying and deal with it, or go back to empire.

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What is the difference between a 0.0 war-zone and a non war-zone 0.0 system?

We want you to tell us how you can make more money in a 0.0 "war-zone" than you can in a stable empire location.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Who are you killing and where? Also play time.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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So who are you then? Otherwise why should i believe you are not lying?

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Originally by: Yohanes Flame

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45 minutes cycle time on cloak with a 20 second cool down. problem minimized?

downsides please respond.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Yea, so i'm going to go with "you can't" because you wont show us how easy it is, and "you are a liar" because you wont let us know who you are.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 10/04/2008 10:56:55

Originally by: Goumindong

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Yea, so i'm going to go with "you can't" because you wont show us how easy it is, and "you are a liar" because you wont let us know who you are.

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Theres a shocker.

Anyway back on topic, cloaks are fine as they are and if an alliance's space is under attack then it should not be safe to carebear at will with no risk in fact it should be very hard or impossable.

In normal RL war's you have commando's, sleeper agents, partisans, insurgents and other types of hidden saboteurs and units that hurt the enemies supply lines or economy/manufacturing endeavors.

This sort of thing has been going on in wars and in eve for a long time but it seems the influx of carebear types from empire into 0.0 has got them all hot and bothered and crying to ccp about the harsh reality of making isk in 0.0.

Suck it up or go back to empire.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Even if you were to make a real world comparison to a space ship game and not to just develop a model for understanding human actions in that game you would still come to the conclusion that in real wars commando's, sleeper agents, partisans, insurgents, and other types of hidden saboteurs are the most risky of all operations because you can be found and then executed.

Yet there is no "find and execute" ability. There is not even a "find and fight" ability, there isn't a "find" ability. You can't hunt them down. There is no critical mass where it becomes easier to find them the more they proliferate[in fact, the more they proliferate, the harder it is to deal with them.]

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Originally by: stinger7

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When the guys who fight behind the lines attack is when you get to kill them and eve is the same, i doubt very much that in past wars ppl left important assets and other things unguarded and eve wars are the same. Im not going to quote examples from history but resistance fighters have always been hidden until the attack just as the defenders have always known they were there but been unable to do anything about it but guard the installations and production areas against the sneak attacks.

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theres plenty of ways to make isk in eve that do not involve sitting in a belt in 0.0.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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These are the riskiest types of attack with the highest failure rates before and after the operations.

In eve, these are the least risky types of attack with the lowest failure rates before, during, after the operations.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: Goumindong

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These are the riskiest types of attack with the highest failure rates before and after the operations.

In eve, these are the least risky types of attack with the lowest failure rates before, during, after the operations.

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Where are you getting this from? Insurgency operations often have a very very high success rate - typically disproptionate to the forces employed. If this was not the case you'd see virtually no Special Forces or insurgency campaigns being used: however these are becoming the predominant aspect of modern assymetric warfare.

C.

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Originally by: Matrixcvd

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i honestly dont mind probing afk cloakers, but with macro how can you tell? if you dont move in 5 minutes you get decloaked? macro would just do it fine, so even tho i think going afk just to be a ***** is lame, probably nothing you can do for it

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