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Hector Martyr
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hector Martyr on 07/04/2008 13:32:56 I have noticed that the prices of almost all T2 components, such as ferrogel, Phenolic Composites, Nanotranstiors, etc. have sky-rocketed over that last 6 months or so.
I can imagine that some new cartels are froming after teh fall of the T2-bpo cartels. Is this endorsed by CCP, and if not, what are they doing about it ?
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 13:34:01
Originally by: Hector Martyr I have noticed that the prices of almost all T2 components, such as ferrogel, Phenolic Composites, Nanotranstiors, etc. have sky-rocketed over that last 6 months or so.
Is this endorsed by CCP, and if not, what are they doing about it ?
Invention increased demand, and high demand means people who produce this stuff sell it at a premium.
Solution is players producing more moon minerals. Go ahead and make some if you want. Its all player created stuff anyway. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Delichon
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:37:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Delichon on 07/04/2008 13:37:33 a) You're an alt. b) Trinity -> new t2 ships. c) Sandbox economy -> CCP is not "doing" anything about anything.
And second ( ) in economy-whine altthread.
Although Moon materials ARE a limited supply commodity in Eve, unlike usuall minerals and Trade goods sold by NPC.
Yet I doubt an ability of a single entity to monopolize all moons producing one mineral and to hold down these moons for any significant amount of time. (disrposium moons much???) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums. |
Hector Martyr
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:38:00 -
[4]
I heard of deals of the alliances with access to moon mining making agreements across the alliances to artificially inflate rates.
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Willow Whisp
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hector Martyr I heard of deals of the alliances with access to moon mining making agreements across the alliances to artificially inflate rates.
I heard the Illuminati are controlling the oil cartels and causing all the wars in the middle east to artificially inflate crude oil prices and raise profits... -- My Sig got pwnt by Cortes :( |
Hector Martyr
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Delichon Edited by: Delichon on 07/04/2008 13:37:33 a) You're an alt. b) Trinity -> new t2 ships. c) Sandbox economy -> CCP is not "doing" anything about anything. And second ( ) in economy-whine altthread.
a) true b) true c) false. CPP stepped in, when the T2 BPO owners abused and made big agreements. how else could a Hulk fall from 500M to 100M in a few months ? There are several other examples ... and I should have posted in the economy forum
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Willow Whisp
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hector Martyr CPP stepped in, when the T2 BPO owners abused and made big agreements.
Wrong, CCP stepped in when some T2 BPO owners were abusing their monopolies by selling isk for RL cash, and stepped in to stop the EULA violations. That had nothing to do with cartels forming, and everything to do with EUAL violators. Invention was not a result of the monopolies. -- My Sig got pwnt by Cortes :( |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:44:00 -
[8]
The cartels control the pricing of the mats needed to make T2 comps. They do not control the comps themselves since the BPOs for those are easily available at modest prices.
Mostly they are controlling Dysprosium and to some extent Promethium. If those are used in the T2 comp you want the prices will be off the charts.
You'd think CCP would have figured out by now, via their own experience and the well known experiences of pretty much every other MMO ever, that if players can dominate what amounts to a static spawn they will. Perhaps CCP wants cartels like this in but frankly makes for lousy gameplay.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Delichon
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Posted - 2008.04.07 13:55:00 -
[9]
You know more than I do in the history of Eve, because I wasn't even here before the invention.
Why I think it would be imposible to build a cartel for moon materials
a) you have to make sure that you cartel partners are not cheating you. They may sell some of their stuff on the side at lower prices - or use the mineral to make T2 and sell it (transfer pricing so to say) b) even 60-70% of disprosium (as I understand - the rarest moon mineral in EVE) is bucketload of moons to survey, claim and control.
Something like this. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums. |
Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.04.07 14:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Delichon You know more than I do in the history of Eve, because I wasn't even here before the invention.
Why I think it would be imposible to build a cartel for moon materials
a) you have to make sure that you cartel partners are not cheating you. They may sell some of their stuff on the side at lower prices - or use the mineral to make T2 and sell it (transfer pricing so to say) b) even 60-70% of disprosium (as I understand - the rarest moon mineral in EVE) is bucketload of moons to survey, claim and control.
Something like this.
You described a downfall of cartels and such things are seen in the real world. But in general if everyone adheres to the deal they all make a lot more money.
The T2 cartels of the past had a much more difficult time of maintaining their stranglehold yet they did it. Now it is even simpler for them to manage. If some few remain out of the loop the cartels can and will buy all their production and resell it at their inflated prices. Although frankly even someone outside the cartel will just ride on the cartel's coattails. When they go to market they will only just barely undercut the cartel's prices and be happy to maintain the inflated prices.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Gamer4liff
Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2008.04.07 14:44:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 07/04/2008 14:45:25
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 13:34:01
Originally by: Hector Martyr I have noticed that the prices of almost all T2 components, such as ferrogel, Phenolic Composites, Nanotranstiors, etc. have sky-rocketed over that last 6 months or so.
Is this endorsed by CCP, and if not, what are they doing about it ?
Invention increased demand, and high demand means people who produce this stuff sell it at a premium.
Solution is players producing more moon minerals. Go ahead and make some if you want. Its all player created stuff anyway.
The barriers to entry in that market are too much to fully stop the massive price hike, CCP has to find an alternative method of getting T2 subcomponents or they risk T2 prices skyrocketing even higher.
The main problem is in the components in the ship market, specifically the ones needed to make reactor cores. I will be sorely disappointed in CCP if they don't do something before antimatter reactor units hit 100k.
And no, to the OP, I really doubt this is the work of some cartel, this is a global market shift.
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Emily Spankratchet
Pragmatics
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Posted - 2008.04.07 14:45:00 -
[12]
Wiser pilots than I have been discussing this in the Market forum, you may want to hunt for the big thread there.
Basically, all Dysprosium and Promethium moons (bar a few in war zones) are at full production capacity. Supply is inelastic, demand is increasing. Prices go up.
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2008.04.07 15:01:00 -
[13]
Ironic that people ignore the fact that advanced materials such as Faction-based alloys, Sylramic Fibers, Fullerides and nanotransistors are steadily dropping in price, heck at 68isk per unit that's almost 20% below 'standard' cost for Crystalline Carbonide.
T2 component cartel? Heh, more like T2 BS, Jump Freighters and invention. What I *don't* understand is peoples loathness to increase prices. T2 goods are *still* at a fraction of the cost that they used to be.
Being a middle-man component manufacturer, I remember someone saying that "all this will come back to bite me on the ass" and that the world would wtf-splode if CCP didn't do something about the higher-end moons. Well, the only thing that *did* bite me was their waste-calculator boost (mass-production nerf) which they plan to 'fix' anyway. Now that I've worked around that profits are at their highest since I first started business. Why?
Demand for T2 goods skyrocketed with invention. There's been no new moons seeded, ergo demand for advanced materials has soared. If there's a cartel, I don't know about it, and it certainly doesn't affect my business. What keeps this pricing in check? Heh, well, that'd be a trade secret now... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Improve Market Competition! |
Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2008.04.07 15:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Wiser pilots than I have been discussing this in the Market forum, you may want to hunt for the big thread there.
Basically, all Dysprosium and Promethium moons (bar a few in war zones) are at full production capacity. Supply is inelastic, demand is increasing. Prices go up.
Well then clearly the solution is to have CCP increase the elasticity of the supply? Things at the current rate can't possibly improve if we're at max or near max supply. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Emily Spankratchet
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Posted - 2008.04.07 15:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Gamer4liff Well then clearly the solution is to have CCP increase the elasticity of the supply?
That would involve creating new moons or modifying the materials in existing moons. Which would hand a huge bucket of cash to whichever alliances get the moons. Which would lead to huge outpourings of arm-waving and tinfoil hattery on the forums. "OMG CCP, YOU CLEARLY ALL HAVE ACCOUNTS IN THE GOONS/MC/TRI/whatever".
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying I wouldn't want to be the one to have to write the Dev blog and put up with the abuse and namecalling (like poor old Zulupark).
Quote: Things at the current rate can't possibly improve if we're at max or near max supply.
Yeah, 'cause T2 prices might get to the level they were at before invention arrived.
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Judge Ment
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Posted - 2008.04.07 15:14:00 -
[16]
Maybe you need to spend your game time flying haulers and fueling POS.
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Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2008.04.07 15:19:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 07/04/2008 15:24:53
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet
Originally by: Gamer4liff Well then clearly the solution is to have CCP increase the elasticity of the supply?
That would involve creating new moons or modifying the materials in existing moons. Which would hand a huge bucket of cash to whichever alliances get the moons. Which would lead to huge outpourings of arm-waving and tinfoil hattery on the forums. "OMG CCP, YOU CLEARLY ALL HAVE ACCOUNTS IN THE GOONS/MC/TRI/whatever".
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying I wouldn't want to be the one to have to write the Dev blog and put up with the abuse and namecalling (like poor old Zulupark).
I didn't mean a solution like that. What I'm thinking is that we need a new way of obtaining the materials outside of moons, like maybe mining a moving comet or something. (exploration and mining tie-in). Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Marcus TheMartin
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Posted - 2008.04.07 15:21:00 -
[18]
All is lost the end is near repent repent repent! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.04.07 15:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Emily Spankratchet
Originally by: Gamer4liff Well then clearly the solution is to have CCP increase the elasticity of the supply?
That would involve creating new moons or modifying the materials in existing moons. Which would hand a huge bucket of cash to whichever alliances get the moons. Which would lead to huge outpourings of arm-waving and tinfoil hattery on the forums. "OMG CCP, YOU CLEARLY ALL HAVE ACCOUNTS IN THE GOONS/MC/TRI/whatever".
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying I wouldn't want to be the one to have to write the Dev blog and put up with the abuse and namecalling (like poor old Zulupark).
Quote: Things at the current rate can't possibly improve if we're at max or near max supply.
Yeah, 'cause T2 prices might get to the level they were at before invention arrived.
Maybe introducing the T2 moon miners so that it is possible to get extra materials from the moons with 2+ of a single resource?
Another measure will be opening 0.4 systems for moon mining.
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Lubomir Penev
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Posted - 2008.04.07 17:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
You'd think CCP would have figured out by now, via their own experience and the well known experiences of pretty much every other MMO ever, that if players can dominate what amounts to a static spawn they will. Perhaps CCP wants cartels like this in but frankly makes for lousy gameplay.
This is EVE and you can blow up their POS and put your own. If anything the last year proved no alliance is untouchable.
The current situation is loads better than the T2 BPO monopoly that could not be broken at all withing game mechanics. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP! |
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Shevar
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Posted - 2008.04.07 17:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 13:34:01
Originally by: Hector Martyr I have noticed that the prices of almost all T2 components, such as ferrogel, Phenolic Composites, Nanotranstiors, etc. have sky-rocketed over that last 6 months or so.
Is this endorsed by CCP, and if not, what are they doing about it ?
Invention increased demand, and high demand means people who produce this stuff sell it at a premium.
Solution is players producing more moon minerals. Go ahead and make some if you want. Its all player created stuff anyway.
Tell me where can I find those free Dysposium moons to increase output? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.07 17:59:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 18:03:48
Originally by: Shevar
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/04/2008 13:34:01
Originally by: Hector Martyr I have noticed that the prices of almost all T2 components, such as ferrogel, Phenolic Composites, Nanotranstiors, etc. have sky-rocketed over that last 6 months or so.
Is this endorsed by CCP, and if not, what are they doing about it ?
Invention increased demand, and high demand means people who produce this stuff sell it at a premium.
Solution is players producing more moon minerals. Go ahead and make some if you want. Its all player created stuff anyway.
Tell me where can I find those free Dysposium moons to increase output?
Low sec. If it is true that every Dyso and Prom moon in every single system is used up in every 0.0, 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 system, then solution is to allow moon mining in a 0.4 only if existing supply is overcripling to the wellbeing of the game. There are lots of dyso's there. Heck, there is a Dyso moon in a 0.5, but thats all moot.
I think its that CCP will increase the barrier of mining as time goes on. Or simply seed new moons/belts into low sec etc. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Tarminic
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Posted - 2008.04.07 18:16:00 -
[23]
Personally, I think that CCP is going to create a new means by which T2 components can be obtained instead of just increasing the number of valid moons. I expect that this would be added by the exploration system or might even be connected to factional warfare. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7) |
Shintai
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Posted - 2008.04.07 18:19:00 -
[24]
I dont think its a secret that some alliances liek RA is cornering the dys/pro materials. And they do it by slapping titans on a pos :p Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.07 18:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Low sec. If it is true that every Dyso and Prom moon in every single system is used up in every 0.0, 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 system, then solution is to allow moon mining in a 0.4 only if existing supply is overcripling to the wellbeing of the game. There are lots of dyso's there. Heck, there is a Dyso moon in a 0.5, but thats all moot.
Dyspro moons above 0.0? Man...I have scanned waaaay more moons than I care to think about (well over 100 million in probes at least, lost track long ago). My experience is low sec moons are largely crud. In scanning hundreds of moons I think I found two in low sec that were merely ok for moon mining. The vast majority were junk that you find all over the place.
Granted my hundreds of scans are a mere drop in the bucket but still. Either the good moons are exceptionally rare and I am colossally unlucky (distinct possibility) or 0.0 is the only place for semi-decent to exceptional moons to mine.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.07 21:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 07/04/2008 18:27:08
Originally by: Lord WarATron Low sec. If it is true that every Dyso and Prom moon in every single system is used up in every 0.0, 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 system, then solution is to allow moon mining in a 0.4 only if existing supply is overcripling to the wellbeing of the game. There are lots of dyso's there. Heck, there is a Dyso moon in a 0.5, but thats all moot.
Dyspro moons above 0.0? Man...I have scanned waaaay more moons than I care to think about (well over 100 million in probes at least, lost track long ago). My experience is low sec moons are largely crud. In scanning hundreds of moons I think I found two in low sec that were merely ok for moon mining. The vast majority were junk that you find all over the place.
Granted my hundreds of scans are a mere drop in the bucket but still. Either the good moons are exceptionally rare and I am colossally unlucky (distinct possibility) or 0.0 is the only place for semi-decent to exceptional moons to mine.
EDIT: And yeah...I scanned moons with POS already on them as well as moons with no POS.
There is Dyso in 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 and I hear there is a dyno in a 0.8, but i never checked. You can only mine upto 0.3 though currently. (could change in future) --
Billion Isk Mission |
Gnulpie
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Posted - 2008.04.07 21:48:00 -
[27]
You can't corner the market in the long run. It is all the old demand/supply thingie.
Demand increased dramatically during the last year, especially the last few months with the constructions of jump freighters.
Supply is at best constant. But the great war of course saw some disruptions in dys and that increased the price as well, so supply actually got lower. There are no new moons. All the supply is fixed.
That leads naturally to higher prices and since most of the final t2 products still drop in price (due to cheaper datacores) the demand is not going down, quite the contrary.
Simple explanation and of course that doesn't sound nearly as exciting and important as revealing a big conspiracy - still it is much more reasonable.
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