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Dantes Wolf
i-Pos
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 12:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is it me or are the lvl 4' completely insane atm?
Doing "the assualt" - lvl 4 in a 70% ressed golem, with 1300 HP healed 4 seconds and seriously, i can barely keep up - isnt this asking a bit much of people? seriously?
Having trained for 2 years and 3 months, flying the ultimate mission ship with elite skils and i have to struggle for it?
and wut about the loot? in the old days every wreck had stuff in em, now 3/4 are empty and when i do get loot, they contain T1 items, excuse me, but where is my income here?
Seriously, EVE is great yadda yadda yadda, but considering the time it takes, i'd better off mining veldspar with crap skills then doing these missions..
Fix maybe?
D. |
Dane El
Daneco Inc.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 12:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
If you think mission income is slow, you should really try out mining. It'll make you appreciate what you make from the missions again. 1 tick of bounties from a good mission is usually worth what I could mine in 2 - 3 hours. And that's ignoring the profits from salvage, loot, mission rewards and LP. Mining really, really sucks.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
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Posted - 2011.09.08 12:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote:Doing "the assualt" - lvl 4 in a 70% ressed golem, with 1300 HP healed 4 seconds and seriously, i can barely keep up - isnt this asking a bit much of people? seriously? Not really, no, since catching that kind of aggro is easily avoidable.
Quote:and wut about the loot? in the old days every wreck had stuff in em, now 3/4 are empty and when i do get loot, they contain T1 items, excuse me, but where is my income here? It has always been T1 items. And anyway, the income is not in the loot GÇö that just slows you down. The real money is in LP. Fix what? The game can't fix your decision to run them in the most difficult and inefficient way possible. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Dantes Wolf
i-Pos
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dane El wrote:If you think mission income is slow, you should really try out mining. It'll make you appreciate what you make from the missions again. 1 tick of bounties from a good mission is usually worth what I could mine in 2 - 3 hours. And that's ignoring the profits from salvage, loot, mission rewards and LP. Mining really, really sucks.
Its too much, not for me, but for every1 else, and yes i dare speak for em - problem is, in order to have something remotely ressembling "freetime" AKA doing stuff in the game that isnt ISK griding, you would need a much higher income then the game supports atm, no matter what you do - idea is grandofc, gotta give em that: "Let as many people as possible, use their real life money on plexes, so we (CCP) gets phat and the casual player can get isks for their pewpew." All good an well, except that for the cusal player who has a work and lives out of the west 20 bucks on top the monthly fee is a ******* mountain of money.
Thats the first thing, secondly the time it takes to make money enough to buy and equip a standard HAC when in highsec is simply too ******* much - i agree, work b4 pleasure, no doubt - but grinding missions for 8 hours or more to afford a ship that lets u fly into danger and die in less then 10 minutes? its too much
Just to specify: a casual player has 8 hours a month online in EVE, giving him, ONE..? PVP experience a month?
The problem needs balancing.
D. |
Mart Allini
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
6
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
1) You don't need a HAC to have fun PvP. Lots of fun to be had in t1/t2 frigs. You can make enough money for 50 rifters in less than an hour probably. 2) L4 missions aren't the only way and far from the best way to make money in EVE |
Silver Sego
True Blue Haulers
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote: Just to specify: a casual player has 8 hours a month online in EVE, giving him, ONE..? PVP experience a month? D.
EvE has a casual niche? Oh right, Red vs Blue frigate wars.
You only get to play with the things that equal the amount of effort you put in. |
Dantes Wolf
i-Pos
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dantes Wolf wrote:Doing "the assualt" - lvl 4 in a 70% ressed golem, with 1300 HP healed 4 seconds and seriously, i can barely keep up - isnt this asking a bit much of people? seriously? Not really, no, since catching that kind of aggro is easily avoidable. I had two groups on me ffs :S Quote:and wut about the loot? in the old days every wreck had stuff in em, now 3/4 are empty and when i do get loot, they contain T1 items, excuse me, but where is my income here? It has always been T1 items. And anyway, the income is not in the loot GÇö that just slows you down. The real money is in LP. It has always been T1 items, aye ur right, meant basic T1 items, meta lvl 0/tech lvl 1 - and ur wrong about the loot, really the loot used to be king money, but.. thats suddenly nerfed.? why? ( and check out the market, if you ever get there - the meta lvl 4 items usually sells for more then a T2 item, looks like you missd out on a ******* godlike amount of cash, hunting ur lps lol - plus salvage, that shizzle will add about 2-4 milion extra onur decent lvl 4 - or has that been nerfed too? ;) Fix what? The game can't fix your decision to run them in the most difficult and inefficient way possible.
ty for crap, and suggeting i cant fly - didnt ur mother say that if you havent got anything nice to say, then stfu? =)
anywho - i DO know how to fly, but getting pounded to brink of wrecking on aggroing two groups and shooting em from 40 KM+ is not my idea of achievement, considering i bloody fly with more then 35 million SP's -.- |
Dantes Wolf
i-Pos
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mart Allini wrote:1) You don't need a HAC to have fun PvP. Lots of fun to be had in t1/t2 frigs. You can make enough money for 50 rifters in less than an hour probably. 2) L4 missions aren't the only way and far from the best way to make money in EVE
i agree, but still, the missions been nerfed, at least on wreck drops, or so it seems to me, ive never seen empty wrecks on drops when i startet the game, now the drop **** and got crap value.
D. |
Kinta Huron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mart Allini wrote:1) You don't need a HAC to have fun PvP. Lots of fun to be had in t1/t2 frigs. You can make enough money for 50 rifters in less than an hour probably. 2) L4 missions aren't the only way and far from the best way to make money in EVE Frig pvp sucks period! |
Dantes Wolf
i-Pos
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Silver Sego wrote:Dantes Wolf wrote: Just to specify: a casual player has 8 hours a month online in EVE, giving him, ONE..? PVP experience a month? D.
EvE has a casual niche? Oh right, Red vs Blue frigate wars. You only get to play with the things that equal the amount of effort you put in.
disregarding the first comment, the anwer to the second is the very topic of discution: theres not enough value compared to the effort being put in - the difference between highsec and 0.0 financials are waaay outta key - and yes. i Could fly to the 0.0 land, join up with an alliance there and start making king dollars, but i prefer highsec life and the tranquillity there - And yes, theres definelty a point in: hte higher the risk, the higher the gain - BUT I'm still argueing that the revenues from highsec life are too low to give the full experience of the game, at least without supporting ur EVE.life with additional funds.
And that is a major problem, not just for me, but for people who are suddenly missing out on a lot of the game due to real life financial issues, a sad situation imho.
D. |
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Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
12
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
A good HAC fit will set you back about 150mil ISK or so.
You recon that's 8 hours of grind, eh?
So your ISK/hr on level 4 missions is about 18-20mil?
That's about what you'd expect to get in a Drake.
You're doing something very very very wrong if you think Level 4 missions need buffing. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
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Posted - 2011.09.08 13:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote:I had two groups on me ffs :S Yes? Easily avoidable.
Quote:It has always been T1 items, aye ur right, meant basic T1 items, meta lvl 0/tech lvl 1 - and ur wrong about the loot, really the loot used to be king money No, loot always slowed you down compared to bounties and LP. And the amount of meta items is largely unchanged GÇö some T1 stuff was replaced because it injected too much mineral from the wrong sources.
Quote:the meta lvl 4 items usually sells for more then a T2 item, looks like you missd out on a ******* godlike amount of cash In the time it takes for you to hunt down, collect, and sort through those meta 4 items, you can complete a whole second mission if you do it right. Meta 4 is nice and all, but they do not in any way make up for the time lost. So no, the godlike amount of cash is actually a waste of time and a decent loss of income.
Quote:ty for crap, and suggeting i cant fly - didnt ur mother say that if you havent got anything nice to say, then stfu? No, my mother wasn't stupid that way. You see, sometimes, not nice things need to be said in order to inform the other party of their problems. And yes, you're doing a lot wrong: you're not managing aggro; you're geared towards killing as fast as possible; you are wasting time on chance money-making at the expense of assured (and much larger) returns.
Quote:i bloody fly with more then 35 million SP's -.- The problem is, that doesn't say anything. SP only tells you how much your clone costs, not how GÇ£powerfulGÇ¥ your character is or how well it performs in any given situation. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
1
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Posted - 2011.09.08 14:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
I am still a relavitely new player (7mil SP) and can handle assault fine with my Dominix (don't even have T2 sentries or heavies yet).
And I do fine with Loot/salvage, although i have an alt that follows me everywhere in his noctis. The loot isnt wonderful, but the salvage can be. I just grab the loot as well since I am salvaging anyhow. |
Zynar11
Suns of Anarchy Citadel Ghosts of Avalon
8
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Posted - 2011.09.08 14:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Try flying a tengu. I've been flying 4's in one for a few months and once the web frigs are killed you can almost fall asleep running the rest of the mission. |
Cambarus
Malicious Destruction War Against the Manifest
3
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Posted - 2011.09.08 15:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote: disregarding the first comment, the anwer to the second is the very topic of discution: theres not enough value compared to the effort being put in - the difference between highsec and 0.0 financials are waaay outta key - and yes. i Could fly to the 0.0 land, join up with an alliance there and start making king dollars, but i prefer highsec life and the tranquillity there - And yes, theres definelty a point in: hte higher the risk, the higher the gain -
You are aware of the fact that one of the biggest complaints floating around wrt income in this game is that highsec offers way too much yeh? The really good mission runners will literally make more than a carrier doing sanctums in nullsec, and that's even assuming you're lucky enough to actually get a good system to run them in, which most don't.
Last time I ran lvl 4s (and I did so VERY casually) I ran them in a vargur and pulled in ~60mil an hour. That's killing everything, and not counting LP (I never liked dealing with LP anyway). That's a LOT of isk, and assuming you can pull in 50mil an hour (which is NOT hard by any stretch) it would only take you 7-8 hours a month to buy a plex, and given that plexs are essentially a way for people with too much money and not enough time to trade with people who have too much time and not enough money, 7 hours of gaming really isn't a lot for a month. If you have a hard time paying for the game with isk, AND you can't afford the 15 bucks a month, maybe it's time you reevaluate your priorities?
Dantes Wolf wrote: BUT I'm still argueing that the revenues from highsec life are too low to give the full experience of the game, at least without supporting ur EVE.life with additional funds.
And that is a major problem, not just for me, but for people who are suddenly missing out on a lot of the game due to real life financial issues, a sad situation imho.
D.
A lot of the game? Like what? You've already said you don't want to join a nullsec alliance, and short of joining rvb or being one of PLs SC/titan pilots, there isn't really a whole lot of pvp available for people who only want to log on a few hours a week, so what exactly are you doing that's draining your isk? Nothing wrong with pvping in a frigate/cruiser, hell even a BC can be replaced within an hour or 2 of carebearing. How is the isk you make now not enough to fund what you do in eve?
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Frel
The Injustice Society
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 16:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
How about you just stop running missions, find a good fit for your ships and get into doing incursions.... Far far far faster isk to be made. And a whole lot more fun. |
Frel
The Injustice Society
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 16:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
"Dantes Wolf wrote:
BUT I'm still argueing that the revenues from highsec life are too low to give the full experience of the game, at least without supporting ur EVE.life with additional funds.
And that is a major problem, not just for me, but for people who are suddenly missing out on a lot of the game due to real life financial issues, a sad situation imho.
D."
In Highsec last weekend I made enough in 4 days of doing incursions to put 2 plexs on each of my three accounts. (by only playing one account) |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
23
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Posted - 2011.09.08 17:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Frel wrote:
In Highsec last weekend I made enough in 4 days of doing incursions to put 2 plexs on each of my three accounts. (by only playing one account)
This is a pretty sweet example of why Incursions in high sec need a heavy reward nerf and low sec ones need a huge boost.
Incursions could have been the new "go to low sec for phat rewards" but CCP botched that one... |
Cambarus
Malicious Destruction War Against the Manifest
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.08 17:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:Frel wrote:
In Highsec last weekend I made enough in 4 days of doing incursions to put 2 plexs on each of my three accounts. (by only playing one account)
This is a pretty sweet example of why Incursions in high sec need a heavy reward nerf and low sec ones need a huge boost. Incursions could have been the new "go to low sec for phat rewards" but CCP botched that one... Low/nullsec incursions already make a good 50% more than their highsec counterparts. The problem is that there's no way to force an incursion to spawn in your neck of the woods if you're out in 0.0, so you're pretty much SOL if you intend on using them to make isk. If CCP made a sov thing that brought on sansha incursions they'd be much more profitable in null than they are in HS. |
Dantes Wolf
i-Pos
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 18:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
hey o/
just had a look a the posts, idk what the problem is regarding my mission methods, if any1 wanna earn a quick buck i'd be happy to take a few lessons in how to optimize my working em - as one said, he's making 50-60 million an hour Vs. my 15 million, i'd be happy to learn from him or any1 one else - I would pay well for the effort.
regarding game balance - i just had a look at the price of a wyvern, and seeing as it is what it is, a major ******* ship and that it costs 2.5 billion, my, would be, 50 million per hour here, isnt that bad - i digres on the statement of game balance.
and lastly ty for the advice on incurtions - quesiton tho, what when ur fleet isnt in the most winning one? u loose all the time invested without pay of any kind, right?
D. |
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Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
8
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Posted - 2011.09.08 18:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
I can't speak for every pirate faction, but serpentis assault has quite a bit more dps than most missions, so I'd assume the rest are heavy also. You have to be more careful with your pulls or get a ridiculous tank, which usually sacrifices your dps.
Also, just to clarify, when you say 70% resists, are you omni-tanking? If you are that's a big mistake in your tank. You should be matching your tank for each mission individually. In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has angered numerous people for many different reasons and is widely considered as a 'bad move'. |
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 18:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote:Is it me or are the lvl 4' completely insane atm?
Doing "the assualt" - lvl 4 in a 70% ressed golem, with 1300 HP healed 4 seconds and seriously, i can barely keep up - isnt this asking a bit much of people? seriously?
Perfect marauder is nothing without competent pilot :)
Dantes Wolf wrote: Fix maybe?
Yup, L4 in hisec must be nerfed.
PS blitz it... |
Cambarus
Malicious Destruction War Against the Manifest
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.08 18:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote:hey o/
just had a look a the posts, idk what the problem is regarding my mission methods, if any1 wanna earn a quick buck i'd be happy to take a few lessons in how to optimize my working em - as one said, he's making 50-60 million an hour Vs. my 15 million, i'd be happy to learn from him or any1 one else - I would pay well for the effort.
regarding game balance - i just had a look at the price of a wyvern, and seeing as it is what it is, a major ******* ship and that it costs 2.5 billion, my, would be, 50 million per hour here, isnt that bad - i digres on the statement of game balance.
and lastly ty for the advice on incurtions - quesiton tho, what when ur fleet isnt in the most winning one? u loose all the time invested without pay of any kind, right?
D. 1)A wyvern costs about 10 times what you seem to think it costs.
2)I honestly don't know what you're doing wrong to be so bad at running lvl 4s. I literally just warped in, shot everything, did a bit of salvaging, and left. No idea how you can pull in only a quarter what I do, when my way of running missions is considered horribly inefficient as it is.
3)Incursion fleets who dont do the most dps get nothing. That said, incursions are usually not crowded enough that you will make nothing, the slower fleets just focus on the less sought after sites. I used to run vanguards solo, and one vindi does not put out enough DPS to compete with any decent fleet, but I can say from experience that it was still pretty easy to find sites for myself to run without too much competition |
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2011.09.08 19:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote:hey o/
and lastly ty for the advice on incurtions - quesiton tho, what when ur fleet isnt in the most winning one? u loose all the time invested without pay of any kind, right?
D.
Absolutely.
|
Frel
The Injustice Society
0
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Posted - 2011.09.08 19:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
There is only a lot of competition when there is only one high sec incursion during prime time.. As for time invested, each Vanguard site should not take your fleet more than 10mins to complete. Part of the fun is contesting them imo. Ive been in fleets tearing through NCO's in 5mins for a 10mil payout. Low sec incurions still need to be more lucrative to risk shiney fits and faction ships. If what your after is pve then incursions are a good way to spend your time, doing missions solo is so fracking boring. Get into the correct incursion channel, ask some questions and meet some new fleet mates. |
Dr Nefarius
Emergent Chaos
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Who do serious people continue to give this guy serious responses?
1. Complains highsec lvl 4 rewards are too low 2. Boasts of his own greatness 3. Tell people giving reasonable responses to STFU 4. Claims a Wyvern is 2.5 bill 5. trollollollollollolloll |
Dustin Roac
1
|
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
This has become my mission drone, and will soon be in level 4's in a tengu in about two weeks.
Currently running level 3's in an overskilled and overtanked drake I make about 100mil every 2 nights, about 2-3 storyline missions in those 2 night sessions (about how long it takes to fill up my bestowe), and the isk comes mostly off of loot and salvage. (jump in the noctis and go back out to the site after each mission). I know people say LP is where it's at, but I can say not in level 3's, if 4 is much higher may be more worth it to just blitz. But I've been supporting this char and a pvp char's month subs + isk for fittings/funs off 3's, so saying you can't do it in 4's makes me wonder if something is being done wrong. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
You realise in Assault you can just keep taking gates until you get to the final pocket, then you only have to kill the five ships on the left, right?
I'm not going to go into details on missioning etc on the forums where there are trolls everywhere but...you're doing it wrong. Very wrong. |
Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Quote: Having trained for 2 years and 3 months, flying the ultimate mission ship with elite skils and i have to struggle for it?
If you think the Golem is the best mission ship, you've never seen a proper Nightmare or Machariel in action.
Quote: and wut about the loot? in the old days every wreck had stuff in em, now 3/4 are empty and when i do get loot, they contain T1 items, excuse me, but where is my income here?
Loot was already the smallest part of the mission income before the nerf, so the nerf isn't that painful.
You want to know how we can make 50M/hour? You'll have to research it on your own, because a large part of that income reside in LP offers, and no sane mission runner want his market operations ruined by dozens of lazy people who just happen to read about it on a forum. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
|
Posted - 2011.09.08 22:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote:If you think the Golem is the best mission ship, you've never seen a proper Nightmare or Machariel in action. Golem and CNR are still the best all-purpose mission ships.
The Nightmare and Mach are better for special uses (notably against EM-weak and Kn/Epl-weak rats, respectively), but they also have distinct drawbacks if you pit them against something outside that specialisation.
Sure, once you get a collection of mission-specific ships that you swap out depending on what you're doing, those two will be pretty much obligatory additions, but if you just want to sit in one ship for everything, they become less than optimal. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
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Museyman
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors 0ccupational Hazzard
14
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Posted - 2011.09.08 23:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
Do your LVL4s in 0.0 if you want real rewards. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 00:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
I love this mission. I use a Navy Dominix for the fun of it (not that I recommend it for isk/hr). The drones keep hitting after you are target blocked.
Pocket One: Attack the highest bounty BS last Drones aggro BC/AC group
Pocket Two: Kill close group Kill far group Kill remaining group lowest bounties first
Blitz: ignore pocket one rats, kill pocket two far group
More info here: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=Assault4gu
Again, it's an awesome mission. I like that you don't know what will happen. The high bounty can look low, a mistake leaving you running to the gate. If the far pocket is out of range for your ship, you could accidently aggro the middle pocket on the way. Varying ECM ships, while annoying, spices things up. Best of all, each bounty in the middle of the second pocket could be the same, leaving you with a Russian Roulette scenario.
I hope they don't change a thing. |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
10
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 02:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lesson 1: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=CategoryLevel4
Lesson 2: Don't aggress the triggers out of order
Lesson 3: Get into wormholes, incursions, or go to nullsec, if your 2 years old and still running missions for your primary income something is very wrong.
You can send the donation to this character, thanks :) |
trexinatux
Bipedal Carnivore Club
1
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 05:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dantes Wolf wrote:Is it me or are the lvl 4' completely insane atm?
Doing "the assualt" - lvl 4 in a 70% ressed golem, with 1300 HP healed 4 seconds and seriously, i can barely keep up - isnt this asking a bit much of people? seriously?
Having trained for 2 years and 3 months, flying the ultimate mission ship with elite skils and i have to struggle for it?
and wut about the loot? in the old days every wreck had stuff in em, now 3/4 are empty and when i do get loot, they contain T1 items, excuse me, but where is my income here?
Seriously, EVE is great yadda yadda yadda, but considering the time it takes, i'd better off mining veldspar with crap skills then doing these missions..
Fix maybe?
D.
TLDR: Wah, missions are hard. CCP, I want an easy mode and free ISK. |
Capn Orgasmo
The Stampede. The Scapegoats
11
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 08:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Running missions in a tengu, everything exactly as it was before the summer.
Im curious about your Golem fit. Maybe you are doing something wrong there. |
Shawnm339
Behind Enemy Lines Corporation The Free Range Settlers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.09 10:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Look around there's plenty of fits for Incursion they are brilliant fun you get to meet loads of new people you're not reliant on salvage, you're working as a team.....I've done 2 missions in the last 2 days (been studying and playing Dead Island) I did Enemies Abound 2-4 (Ok that's 3 but the 3rd ones a courier mission for 7 jumps there and back so it's not really much of a mission) and I netted 80 mill (tags were there major winner for me).....I could be worng here guys but I mission in 0.5 and it seems as though the bonuses rewards and lp seem higher?
I fly a faction BS but was quite happy doing them in a Abbo with T2 fittings of course it's a lot easier with T2 beams and drones but when you lose a drone it hurts financially....somethings not right if you're sturggling with lvl 4s I'm only at 12 mill sp and I'm getting to the point where most of them are a bit of a grind time-wise I know the stories (the Damsels always getting into trouble) and I know what reisists to fit I'll personally state for the record that you need to read the mission guides fit accordingly, I have over 90% of both em/therm for example in a Blood Raider mission......evesurvivial is your friend use it fit accordingly and there is no way you should be in any position to lose a ship (and this comes from a guy who's lost more ships than the German navy in WW2!!
Hit me up in EVE sometime and I'll run through a few things with you either on chat or Teamspeak if you have it....
Incursions to reitierate though are the best fun once you know missions like the back of your hand and you earn great ISK in fact the corp I'm in has been setup to promote safe flying in Incursions by getting our own fleets together (advert over) |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.09 10:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Shadowsword wrote:If you think the Golem is the best mission ship, you've never seen a proper Nightmare or Machariel in action. Golem and CNR are still the best all-purpose mission ships. The Nightmare and Mach are better for special uses (notably against EM-weak and Kn/Epl-weak rats, respectively), but they also have distinct drawbacks if you pit them against something outside that specialisation. No. Just no. |
Capn Orgasmo
The Stampede. The Scapegoats
11
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 10:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
Im going to back Shaw up here, he made a bloody valid and good point. Btw if anyone is reading this and is in the same situation (struggling with missions) hit me up in game and you can tag along and get a feel of the missions or I can answer any questions you may have. |
Shawnm339
Behind Enemy Lines Corporation The Free Range Settlers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.09 11:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
The mission guides a real help you will learn to leave the big ships in Blockade until last thereby managing the triggers, and fit accordingly active resists
That's it your over double my sp and it's not often I have to ask for help in a mission unless it's a great one like Worlds Collide that just runs better with 2 of you |
Capn Orgasmo
The Stampede. The Scapegoats
11
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 11:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shawn even the Worlds collide is doable solo in a Tengu and its not even that hard. |
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Shawnm339
Behind Enemy Lines Corporation The Free Range Settlers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.09 11:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
What's the one with the bonus pocket that you need the diamond tag for? I enjoy doing Worlds Collide with someone else just cos it takes an age in a BS |
Capn Orgasmo
The Stampede. The Scapegoats
11
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 11:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Shawnm339 wrote:What's the one with the bonus pocket that you need the diamond tag for? I enjoy doing Worlds Collide with someone else just cos it takes an age in a BS
Angel ex and Guristas ex |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 13:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote:No. Just no. Oh really? Anyway, yes.
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 14:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Firebolt145 wrote:No. Just no. Oh really? Anyway, yes. I was referring to the Mach comment btw. I have not flown a Nightmare and will not pretend to be an expert on it.
DPS-wise, a Mach uses autocannons and can simply switch ammo to EMP to do the exact same damage amount, so you can't have been talking about DPS with that statement. The only reason why one would consider a Mach strong against Angels and weak against Sansha etc is its tank being shield - thus it is slightly 'weaker' against EM/therm unless you plug it up, on paper.
However, 99% of missioners vastly overtank their missioning ships anyway. I get by with a shield booster and two general invulnerability field II's on my Mach for all missions and that total of 3 tank-related mod is enough to keep my mach above 75% shields and capacity for all missions including Sansha etc without sweat. This means tanking is no longer a limiting factor towards my missioning efficiency.
So that leaves DPS and speed - two things the Mach has plenty of irrespectively of what I'm attacking. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 15:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote:DPS-wise, a Mach uses autocannons and can simply switch ammo to EMP to do the exact same damage amount, so you can't have been talking about DPS with that statement. GǪwhich also cuts the range down something fierce which isn't something you generally want against Sansha. That's why the NM is so outstanding against them: it delivers the right damage at the right (and beyond) the right range.
Again, that's the whole point of the Ravenkind: they get their versatility from being able to deliver any kind of damage at any kind of range without any kind of modification.
Tanking, as you point out, isn't really a factor since these ships DPS tank anyway, and unless you want to severely hamper their killing ability, they're all shield tanked so the resists are largely the same as well and you have to plug the same holes. Instead, it's all about damage delivery, and while the other two definitely excel at that area, they do so with restrictions. The Ravens do not, but instead get slightly lower damage. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 15:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
EMP doesn't cut down the range at all - you should be using either EMP, PP or Fusion, all of which have the same range already.
If you mission in Amarr space, then yes you should be using a nightmare because I'd imagine you get a lot more Sansha missions where you need that range. But in Minmatar space, the only Sansha missions you get are the Slave Traders pair. In both of those you start at <30km and kill the necessary ships before they burn out of range.
If you're going to argue that Nightmare and Mach have their places in the universe of EVE location-wise then yes I agree. Golems and CNRs etc can probably work everywhere due to missiles whereas the Nightmare is better suited in Amarr and the Mach is better suited in Minmatar. But saying the Mach and Nightmare are only for special uses and that it is better to switch ship depending on the mission because the Mach isn't good for super-duper long distance is just ridiculous. |
Flakey Foont
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 17:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
I suspect this is a case of guy bought toon thinking he will be l33t but finds it is not that easy. |
Capn Orgasmo
The Stampede. The Scapegoats
11
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 17:34:00 -
[48] - Quote
Flakey Foont wrote:I suspect this is a case of guy bought toon thinking he will be l33t but finds it is not that easy. Me too |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
12
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 19:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Firebolt145 wrote:DPS-wise, a Mach uses autocannons and can simply switch ammo to EMP to do the exact same damage amount, so you can't have been talking about DPS with that statement. GǪwhich also cuts the range down something fierce which isn't something you generally want against Sansha. That's why the NM is so outstanding against them: it delivers the right damage at the right (and beyond) the right range.
I agree with 99% of things you say, but on this, no.
It matters not one tiny bit that your OPTIMAL range on AUTOCANNONS is reduced. The only thing that matters is how far into falloff the target is. At optimal plus one falloff my Mach is STILL doing more DPS than a Raven.
That falloff is 70km. There are few to no missions where the rats are outside of 70km ... or can't be readily reached with the mach's 1500m/s ...
The nightmare beats the mach hands down for EM/Therm rats.... for everything else the answer is "Machariel."
A CNR may be able to shoot out to 250km ranges .. but c'mon ... how many times is that useful? In all real scenario's it's DPS is substandard in relation to the pirate battleships. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 19:53:00 -
[50] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote:EMP doesn't cut down the range at all - you should be using either EMP, PP or Fusion, all of which have the same range already. It cuts down range because it has no falloff bonus.
Lady Go Diveher wrote:It matters not one tiny bit that your OPTIMAL range on AUTOCANNONS is reduced. The only thing that matters is how far into falloff the target is. At optimal plus one falloff my Mach is STILL doing more DPS than a Raven. RiiiightGǪ You do know that at 1+ù falloff, your DPS is down to 40%, right? That would mean that the base DPS of that Mach would have to be some 2.5+ù of the Ravenkind you're comparing to, and that won't be the case.
If we're talking half falloff (~80% DPS, then maybe), but now we're down to 40km, and there are plenty of missions where you need more engagement range than that.
Quote:A CNR may be able to shoot out to 250km ranges .. but c'mon ... how many times is that useful? In all real scenario's it's DPS is substandard in relation to the pirate battleships. That would be a stupid fit if you made it do that. Instead, it can deliver near-massive damage (as in far more than the 40% of a Mach's damage you're talking about) to anything within 120km or so. That is enough to make it the jack-of-all-trades king. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 20:03:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Firebolt145 wrote:DPS-wise, a Mach uses autocannons and can simply switch ammo to EMP to do the exact same damage amount, so you can't have been talking about DPS with that statement. GǪwhich also cuts the range down something fierce which isn't something you generally want against Sansha...
Actually, ACs on a Mach work excellently vs Sansha. The Sansha TDs don't reduce the effective range of the AC Mach's turrets in any noticeable way, and the tracking issue is easily overcome by active piloting.
EDIT: OFC a Nightmare works well too, but also requires active piloting and you may take a DPS hit having to switch to LR ammo. But Tachs with 2 TEs have a pretty good falloff anyway.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
12
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 20:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tippia wrote:If we're talking half falloff (~80% DPS, then maybe), but now we're down to 40km, and there are plenty of missions where you need more engagement range than that. When comparing a max-skilled Mach to a max-skilled CNR, the exact tipping point is 45km. Anything outside of 45km takes less damage from the mach, anything inside of that, more. Case in point: http://i56.tinypic.com/2i6dx78.png
You need to ask yourself the following question: how long, realistically, are the rats going to spend outside of 45km when I can do 1500m/s? It's not a question of where they spawn, it's a simple question of maintaining the range you want to be at.
For most missions, you spend some 30 seconds MWDing into range, then the rest of the mission at near-enough point blank ranges. At a conservative estimate, you're then doing at least 75% more damage than the CNR. That is very significant.
The Gollem does even less damage, and it's tank bonus is tied to the x10 Marauders skill, meaning few but the most hardcore mission bears will train this, and probably not even the pre-requisites in short order
They're great "low SP mission ships" but they are not optimal to the task. The only reason they're great at the first task, is that you can maintain a huge range and ergo can tank the damage easily enough. Once you're skilled, you really owe it to yourself to switch out to turret DPS and get in their face. |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 20:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tippia, are you actually saying that the Raven does more dps than a Mach overall in some missions? Have you actually flown a Mach? We haven't even talked about the fact that the Raven can't damage frigates for **** while a Mach 1 shots each of them from 70km away every 3 seconds.
edit: just did some efting of my own.
http://i.imgur.com/DAjHD.png
Top lines are attacking a mach and second is attacking a cynabal (just random examples of attacking a battleship or a cruiser). According to this a Raven outdpses a mach on a battleship at 70km and on a cruiser at around 105km (lol).
For the raven I used this fit which I stole from Battleclinic. Ignoring the hull cost, it is about the same range of 'pimp' as my Mach fit.
[Raven, Lv4 Mission Raven] Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Gist B-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II
Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Cruise Missile Launcher II Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Hammerhead II Hobgoblin II
---
Comparing my mach fit to this raven (ignoring dps) we get about the same tank and I have an mwd which makes me go at 1.5kmps. Even if you take out a tank mod (thus making it worst than the mach at taking lol) and putting in an mwd the Raven still only gets 800mps.
I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the Raven is better than the Mach in ANY situation. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 20:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lady Go Diveher wrote:You need to ask yourself the following question: how long, realistically, are the rats going to spend outside of 45km when I can do 1500m/s? It's not a question of where they spawn, it's a simple question of maintaining the range you want to be at. Long enough, since you actually have to travel between them instead of switching targets instantly. Most missions with any amount of ships will have multiple spawn points and/or multiple waves, and the ships will try to spread out while you go after one of them. So those 30s come into play more than once, and each of those equates to roughly one GÇ£freeGÇ¥ ship kill for a ship that doesn't have to make that trip.
Quote:The Gollem does even less damage Than what? And in what scenario?
Quote:The only reason they're great at the first task, is that you can maintain a huge range and ergo can tank the damage easily enough. GǪand delivering any kind of damage at any kind of range at any kind of target. In other words, they're far better as jack-of-all-trade ships.
Firebolt145 wrote:Tippia, are you actually saying that the Raven does more dps than a Mach overall in some missions? Ravenkind, not Raven. As in CNR/Golem. And yes, definitely, from the simple fact that as a turret ship, the Mach's damage is capped by the range.
Quote:Comparing my mach fit to this raven (ignoring dps) we get about the same tank and I have an mwd which makes me go at 1.5kmps. Even if you take out a tank mod (thus making it worst than the mach at taking lol) and putting in an mwd it still only gets 800mps. For one, that is a horrid fit. For another, I take it that's a normal Raven, not a CNR or Golem? And thirdly, why would you put an MWD on it? That's the whole point: you don't need it because you get full engagement range from the get-go and can deliver any type of damage at that range.
Just to make it clear: that fit is missing the ammo you'll be using, it's missing at least one BCU, it's missing target painters (which, btw, will make your DPS graph look a bit wierd since they are only applied out to the TP optimal, but in reality, you can safely extend that damage plateau out to 90km or so), and its rigs are only half right. A properly fit CNR should deliver some 600+ damage to a naked Cynabal at <60km; 500 or so at <90km. The numbers in your graph are Gàö too lowGǪ GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 20:54:00 -
[55] - Quote
Edited my post to insert some new data just as you posted Tippia. And saying AC range is limited is understandable when looking at some ships, but not when looking at the Mach. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 20:56:00 -
[56] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote:Edited my post to insert some new data just as you posted Tippia. And saying AC range is limited is understandable when looking at some ships, but not when looking at the Mach. It's limited for the Mach as well. The tracking formula combined with the fact that it's range entirely comes in the form of falloff makes sure of that. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 21:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
If you look at the EFT graph I linked, I'm considering worst case scenario already for tracking (going in complete opposite directions).
edit: Tippia I'm not using guesses or random gut estimations when I give information. I have numbers to back me up everywhere. If you can show me a graph where a Raven outdpses a Mach in a realistic situation within a reasonable range then I'll admit you are right and there is a situation where the Mach loses to the Raven. Until then, it's just empty words.
edit2: Just saw your own edit, this is getting confusing lol.
You're right, I had forgotten we were debating a CNR. Gimme a sec. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
121
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 21:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote:Tippia I'm not using guesses or random gut estimations when I give information. I have numbers to back me up everywhere. If you can show me a graph where a Raven outdpses a Mach in a realistic situation within a reasonable range then I'll admit you are right and there is a situation where the Mach loses to the Raven. Until then, it's just empty words. Sure. Post a Mach fit (including ammo). GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.09 21:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/0Kom0.png
Much better numbers for the CNR, but still doesn't win it. Mach will always out-dps the CNR up till 53km on battleships regardless of transversal.
WRT Cruiser dps, this graph is already assuming worst case scenario for the Mach. Once I set transversal to 0 (which is much more likely with rats racing towards you) the Mach outdpses on the Cruiser until 73km (I have taken the TP into account).
Saying speed doesn't matter is being ignorant. Many missions require you to zoom zoom here or zoom zoom there. Who cares if you can kill everything if it takes you longer to get to the next pocket's gate?
Anyway, here are fits. Once again I've stolen the best-rated CNR fit on Battleclinic. Once again tank numbers are about the same, and obviously speed differences are same as stated for the Raven.
[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue: Proper CNR mission fit] Power Diagnostic System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Cap Recharger II Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Republic Fleet Target Painter
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile Drone Link Augmentor I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
---
[Machariel, Ideal Mach] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gist C-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Small Tractor Beam I
Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Warrior II x10 Warrior II x5
---
I am using Paradise Cruise Missiles for the CNR as I assume they are somewhat the equivalent of cheap non-faction ammo (like EMP). I have not taken drones into account in any of these comparisons. Also, the CNR fit I have linked is so ridiculously pimped I am laughing, that would be huge SG-bait. I am not sure how you'd bring up the DPS on that thing short of getting rid of a tank mod and putting on another TP. Please don't make me EFT that as well. |
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