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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
67
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Posted - 2012.02.29 16:08:00 -
[91] - Quote
Who needs Hulkageddon when CCP themselves can cause more tears in one massive wave. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1286
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 16:08:00 -
[92] - Quote
I see that people are asking to make bot accounts un-sellable and for information on what alliances they were in.
If there was a "Hall of Shame" established whereby the names of every char who is caught botting is published, even if for a temporary ban, then this would have the effect of both making the account un-sellable or at the least buyers have a way of knowing, and naturally we would be able to see what alliance and corp the bot was in and establish a pattern for that.
Note that it's also a liability for corporations and alliances to sign on botters, so they should have the right to know. If a corp or alliance prides itself on not running bots for integrity reasons, they deserve to have tool available to keep botters out of their ranks.
Now I fully expect resistance to that. People will speak of "privacy" but this is an MMO (a GAME), not a country with a congress or parliament. CCP can do whatever the f**k it pleases and if the player base asks for a Hall of Shame to out those banned for botting, then they should have it.
We need a Hall of Shame or a list of banned characters for all of the Eve Universe to see. Not only will this help in shaming those caught in an activity that wrecks this game (along with their corps and alliances) but it will allow "the sandbox to take care of things" in the long run. All we need is the info.
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Ishihiro tanaka
NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.02.29 16:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
Heh, I was in Amsterdam too :)
No ill after effects with the hot sauce Sreegs? |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1617
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Posted - 2012.02.29 16:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew! (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
113
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Posted - 2012.02.29 16:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew!
How about just perma ban them on first strike? instead of the silly 10-14 day slap they get now + not being able to resell them... |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1619
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Posted - 2012.02.29 16:32:00 -
[96] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Lady Spank wrote:Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew! How about just perma ban them on first strike? instead of the silly 10-14 day slap they get now + not being able to resell them...
I was aiming for something a little more entertaining for the player base but in seriousness, I kind of think a one-time slap on the wrist is ok.... as long as the characters cant be recycled/sold. Like IP tracking and ban all accounts / remove character sale priveliges etc etc. (I know IP bans arent infallible but it catches all current accounts of that person) etc etc.
Uh... this is a brainfart, don't read into it too much. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
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Posted - 2012.02.29 16:38:00 -
[97] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:You're Mum wrote:Andski wrote:It'd help if you didn't, you know, publish botting guides on your site. Yeah riverini a how to guide is so the best way to combat botting. As always you are made of win! Well done....:slow clap: That was utterly idiotic when those were published. This sounds like something very newsworthy. I suppose he has of course by now pulled his incriminating evidence off his entirely balanced and not at all telling people how to bot site?
Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
743
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 16:43:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew!
Fine for high sec rogue mining botters, but doesn't work really as the majority of bots are buried within, and protected by, the 0.0 alliances to which they belong.
NO... just delete the characters involved.
Mr Epeen
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
42
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Posted - 2012.02.29 16:46:00 -
[99] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Lady Spank wrote:Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew! Fine for high sec rogue mining botters, but doesn't work really as the majority of bots are buried within, and protected by, the 0.0 alliances to which they belong. NO... just delete the characters involved. Mr Epeen
Exactly, give them a one time warning and on second offense, just biomass the character. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
335
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:04:00 -
[100] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Lady Spank wrote:Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew! How about just perma ban them on first strike? instead of the silly 10-14 day slap they get now + not being able to resell them...
I am going to play devil's advocate on this, as I read it everywhere again and again, pitchforks and torches readied to kill with no second thought.
They could perma ban on first strike if a list of banned software was available or if some button could tell people "HEY GUY YOU ARE ABOUT TO START EVE WITH SUSPICIOUS SOFTWARE RUNNING!"
How do you know if tomorrow you buy a new keyboard and it triggers a bot detection and you get permabanned? Or you install something that automates some mundane task in another software and its "engine" is shared by one of the bots and thus gets detected by EvE?
Other times they ban by using heuristics (expecially when a player activity is "strange" / reported but no blatant bot engine is found). They cannot perma ban on first strike because of heuristics, heuristics always come with false positives.
Would YOU like to be perma banned out of the blue, just because you played in a way that somehow triggered the heuristic?
You are all so sure that everything goes black and white, but it does not.
Imagine if a bug in the detection engine causes 1000 auto-permabans and then someone proves a bug screwed good players. Imagine the adverse publicity on the game. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1619
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:06:00 -
[101] - Quote
CCP dont ruin invasive software, they apply bans based on in game activity. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
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Posted - 2012.02.29 17:11:00 -
[102] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Imagine if a bug in the detection engine causes 1000 auto-permabans and then someone proves a bug screwed good players. Imagine the adverse publicity on the game. Oh ho. That would be quite hilarious. We all know CCP's code is flawless and would never bug out, crash the game or worse somehow permaban people if it were allowed to take such action. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
335
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Posted - 2012.02.29 17:14:00 -
[103] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:CCP dont ruin invasive software, they apply bans based on in game activity.
Exactly.
Imagine you (for any reason, you pay a sub after all) have 1-2 PvP / mission accounts aka "active" accounts and 2 industry characters that do nothing but run BPO research / T2 invention / datacore / manufacturing etc.
Imagine you play 6 hours a day after lunch, you use the 2 "active" accounts to do your fun stuff. The 2 industry accounts sit in a station unused, so you decide to put them on ALT TAB ice mining.
After 3 months of playing like this, some guy reports your alts.
CCP investigates, finds out a very regular log in - log off pattern, an high number of hours played and for many weeks, ice mining is involved.
They do 1 + 1 and ban all your accounts.
Did you cheat? No. You just neatly fell into an usage pattern that happens to seem like a botter.
Because mining is such a bad mechanic, there's no 100% foolproof way for CCP employees to be SURE you did not bot.
Now imagine that the heuristics they use are so damn accurate that with some unknown magic they REALLY discern the true botter in 95% of the cases (very very high).
Next week they ban 6000 bots, 1000 of which are heuristics based.
50 guys will be banned for no reason.
They WILL be unable to post on the forums. They WILL be unable to file a petition. They WILL be unable to do anything but fill the "available for everyone" email form and be put in a 1 month queue just to know WTF happened them.
After 1 month they will be told that they have been found botting. What do those guys have at disposal to prove they did not bot? NOTHING.
And people here demands first strike perma ban? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
111
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:26:00 -
[104] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Bubanni wrote:Lady Spank wrote:Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew! How about just perma ban them on first strike? instead of the silly 10-14 day slap they get now + not being able to resell them... I am going to play devil's advocate on this, as I read it everywhere again and again, pitchforks and torches readied to kill with no second thought. They could perma ban on first strike if a list of banned software was available or if some button could tell people "HEY GUY YOU ARE ABOUT TO START EVE WITH SUSPICIOUS SOFTWARE RUNNING!" How do you know if tomorrow you buy a new keyboard and it triggers a bot detection and you get permabanned? Or you install something that automates some mundane task in another software and its "engine" is shared by one of the bots and thus gets detected by EvE? Other times they ban by using heuristics (expecially when a player activity is "strange" / reported but no blatant bot engine is found). They cannot perma ban on first strike because of heuristics, heuristics always come with false positives. Would YOU like to be perma banned out of the blue, just because you played in a way that somehow triggered the heuristic? You are all so sure that everything goes black and white, but it does not. Imagine if a bug in the detection engine causes 1000 auto-permabans and then someone proves a bug screwed good players. Imagine the adverse publicity on the game.
I'm going to play the devils advocate to your advocate.
For starters, permaban =/= all hope is lost. If you can prove without a doubt that it was some background code similar to that of a botting script (though what it could be is beyond me) then you can petition it and get your account back.
To my knowledge there is no such thing as ban software, unless you are calling ccp employees soft. They have software to detect bots. Then they tie the bot accounts to any other accounts possibly used by the same IP or CC and investigate those accounts. They spend months creating these bundles so that they may ban en mass. They do it this way so that it makes it harder for a botter to know when and how they were detected. I'd like to think that they are as thorough as they can be but they are only human and as stated, if you can prove without a doubt through level headed communications with their team, you can be unbanned. What I'm getting at is that it's a human who 'flips the switch', not some program. The closest I have ever seen to a ban program is punkbuster, but it doesn't ban you , it merely kicks you out of game. This isn't some instance where a 0 shows up when a 1 should have, botters are watched for quite a while so unless you are performing the exact same action every day I think you should be safe.
I can imagine if such a program exists, and it does ban 1000 people, that 1000 people would be screaming bloody murder that the team would be looking into the glitch very quickly. I can also imagine that once the investigation is complete that 1000 people would be immediately unbanned and time given for time lost. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2532
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:27:00 -
[105] - Quote
EVE does fingerprint your computer you idiots
though not background code unless they're planting spyware in which case we have a problem |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1619
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:28:00 -
[106] - Quote
I doubt that example would lead to a ban so I don't see how it is relevant. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
118
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Posted - 2012.02.29 17:35:00 -
[107] - Quote
Someone is so afraid of banning that attacks CCP without any evidence... I love this ****.
Just do it all the time CCP... |
Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
9
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:41:00 -
[108] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Because mining is such a bad mechanic, there's no 100% foolproof way for CCP employees to be SURE you did not bot.
I find that pods pretending mining for a cycle, docking to station, undocking, pretending mining for a cycle, docking... for hours after their Mackinaw got ganked a pretty damning evidence, well worthy of a first strike permaban. |
Doc Fury
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
450
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:43:00 -
[109] - Quote
Lubomir Penev wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Because mining is such a bad mechanic, there's no 100% foolproof way for CCP employees to be SURE you did not bot.
I find that pods pretending mining for a cycle, docking to station, undocking, pretending mining for a cycle, docking... for hours after their Mackinaw got ganked a pretty damning evidence, well worthy of a first strike permaban.
^^This
Seen it far too many times, and long ago it used to be funny to watch. Now it's just sad. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1619
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:52:00 -
[110] - Quote
I'm not much of a ganker but I think out of 50 odd exhumers that I have suicided at least 10 of them have displayed that behaviour. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
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Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2012.02.29 17:54:00 -
[111] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Great news, hopefully spam bots will get the hammer too... Looking forward to that blog! /c
now its Y0TO0 for the next 14-21 days. Fresh recycled, new trial account... |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 17:55:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Thanks! :)
I'm writing a dev blog in a day or two that will contain some sweet juicy new details.
As regards the timing of this particular wave, let the dudes on FHC know that Fanfest had nothing to do with it. That's a coincidence.
:edit: also the guy above me gratz on the bans - but didn't you tell us not so long ago that "unholy rage" style mass-bans are pointless PR stunts?
I thought the bans in May 2011 were supposed to be only the beginning of a continued effort in which different bots get hit every few weeks...
Whatever you did back then it did destroy RR and brought down a popular botting forum for several weeks as collateral damage so I had quite high hopes for that approach.
But other bots were not hit in a similar fashion in the months following that successful take down (or they created no waves at all when they were hit - which is hard to believe) and now you seem to have returned to the "big banwaves" model that allows botters to rely on having a lot of time between waves to recoup their investments.
I'm quite happy that you didn't write a devblog right away by the way - the relative silence (before this thread) gave those of us who got informed about the bans as they happened some time to stock up cheaply on items that are likely to spike in prices over the next 2 weeks. |
You're Mum
1st. Pariah Malefactor corp.
2
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Posted - 2012.02.29 18:12:00 -
[113] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:You're Mum wrote:Andski wrote:It'd help if you didn't, you know, publish botting guides on your site. Yeah riverini a how to guide is so the best way to combat botting. As always you are made of win! Well done....:slow clap: That was utterly idiotic when those were published. This sounds like something very newsworthy. I suppose he has of course by now pulled his incriminating evidence off his entirely balanced and not at all telling people how to bot site?
nope its still there, not that i read said shoddy web site or anything |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 18:22:00 -
[114] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:EVE does fingerprint your computer you idiots non-******** botters use a launcher that spoofs the fingerprint (and monitors the fingerprint code for any changes), hides injected dlls from the client and prevents crashes from getting reported (doing this via the official client setting might be a red flag, who kows?). |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
335
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 18:27:00 -
[115] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote: I'm going to play the devils advocate to your advocate.
For starters, permaban =/= all hope is lost. If you can prove without a doubt that it was some background code similar to that of a botting script (though what it could be is beyond me) then you can petition it and get your account back.
How would you prove "without doubt" that you did not cheat? What tools does CCP provide to do so? What tools do you have? None. It's your defaced word against an international corporation.
Lady Spank wrote:I doubt that example would lead to a ban so I don't see how it is relevant.
Ever used Avira or most other antivirus software? You enable heuristics, you can be quite sure you'll get false positives. Sure my example is short, but was to give the idea.
Elanor Vega wrote:Someone is so afraid of banning that attacks CCP without any evidence... I love this ****. Just do it all the time CCP...
Not able to read at all? The "first strike => guillotine" is the subject.
Lubomir Penev wrote: I find that pods pretending mining for a cycle, docking to station, undocking, pretending mining for a cycle, docking... for hours after their Mackinaw got ganked a pretty damning evidence, well worthy of a first strike permaban.
Those would indeed be proven botters worth a first strike perma ban.
Though you'd have to be able to insta-summon a CCP GM at the belt and make him look. Otherwise they have to believe in your report (which could be made up to screw competitors, enemy corp etc.).
Also, not everyone kill someone else just to see IF they were a bot, they will just report the suspicious guy. Then what happens? Probably at CCP they won't gank the guy to see if he's botting, they'll run heuristics for an amount of time.
I mean, your way to detect a bot is certainly the quickest and functional but it's not the default and probably not the majority and certainly not how CCP can proceed to validate bots. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
FeralShadow
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
65
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Posted - 2012.02.29 18:34:00 -
[116] - Quote
My tear jar! It is almost overflowing!!!! YAY SREEGS! |
Ptraci
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
353
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Posted - 2012.02.29 18:44:00 -
[117] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: How would you prove "without doubt" that you did not cheat?
You don't need to prove that you did not cheat. The logs prove that you did, which is why you were banned. Any argument is just you trying to convince CCP that what they read in their logs is not true. But you don't know what is in their logs.
Botters tend to be greedy and unimaginative. I'm sure that someone who has a bot program set up to bot 30 mins a day probably wouldn't be detected by CCP. On the other hand, 30 minutes a day probably has a negligible impact on the economy, too. So it's a moot point. But the guy who has 20 accounts botting 23/7, uses the proceeds from mineral sales to buy rare in game items that apparently he just gives away to people, well, he's screwed. |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
14
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Posted - 2012.02.29 18:50:00 -
[118] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Who needs Hulkageddon when CCP themselves can cause more tears in one massive wave.
This = +1
Also, bot-tears give me wood. |
Therese Ishihara
New Eden Defense Systems
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 18:54:00 -
[119] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Bubanni wrote:Lady Spank wrote:Take no action against botters other than to make their characters permanently sanctionable targets for all capsuleers!
You like to bot? Well we know some people that like to pew pew! How about just perma ban them on first strike? instead of the silly 10-14 day slap they get now + not being able to resell them... I am going to play devil's advocate on this, as I read it everywhere again and again, pitchforks and torches readied to kill with no second thought. They could perma ban on first strike if a list of banned software was available or if some button could tell people "HEY GUY YOU ARE ABOUT TO START EVE WITH SUSPICIOUS SOFTWARE RUNNING!" How do you know if tomorrow you buy a new keyboard and it triggers a bot detection and you get permabanned? Or you install something that automates some mundane task in another software and its "engine" is shared by one of the bots and thus gets detected by EvE? Other times they ban by using heuristics (expecially when a player activity is "strange" / reported but no blatant bot engine is found). They cannot perma ban on first strike because of heuristics, heuristics always come with false positives. Would YOU like to be perma banned out of the blue, just because you played in a way that somehow triggered the heuristic? You are all so sure that everything goes black and white, but it does not. Imagine if a bug in the detection engine causes 1000 auto-permabans and then someone proves a bug screwed good players. Imagine the adverse publicity on the game.
So I went hunting down some bot software after you made this comment and made the determination that the heuristics they would have to use in order to detect bots wouldn't even need to look at play time or activity.
All of the bots I've looked at have very specific UI settings that you must have in order for the bots to work. I'm talking book marks, their names, where they point to, window placement, all sorts of crazy things. If a non-bot was using these specific UI settings and their names, it would be one hell of a coincidence.
All it would take for CCP to crack down on bots would be a simple 4 step process: 1.) Find bot software. 2.) Buy it. 3.) Get the UI settings required by the bot in order to work. 4.) Make a DB query.
You could probably get a large number of bot users by simply looking at the bookmarks set by players. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
161
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 18:55:00 -
[120] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:EVE does fingerprint your computer you idiots
though not background code unless they're planting spyware in which case we have a problem
Actually, I doubt it.
Any form of foul play by CCP would be detected in minutes by paranoid info sec or comp sci nerds (and there's a lot of us playing EvE).
Not to mention the dudes that actually try to make money by selling botting software.
And anyone with a wiff of experience with this kind of issues knows that fingerprinting doesn't solve anything since you can't ever trust the client.
Hell, you can't even tell if the client is connected directly to the server (MITM protection doesn't work if the MITM has full access to the client and it's memory space).
So CCP asks us nicely for memorydumps and such of the the EvE process while allowing us to say no because that's the right and most efficient way to do it.
Bot detection is based on reports and on analysing behavioural data on the server.
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