|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:54:00 -
[1]
pfff another tool to make ppl blob more and make roaming and small gangs less effective i hope you are proud of yourselfs.
This tool should be banned as it ruins gamplay for small roaming gangs it makes 0.0 even more save.
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:02:00 -
[2]
i was just voicing my opinion. Which is ok on any forum. Ccp should just fix logserver so it no longer passes these messages and bacon is broke. Problem solved. Its just that i think this program breaks a part of eve I like... Roaming...
I also encourage ppl to find security holes in bacon so i can post code in local and crash/freeze bacon using ppl and gank em while they are ratting. Maybe inject some kind of malicous code or something. As local is for chat only and the logserver wont be affected i would technicaly not break any eula or tos rules.....
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:12:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Maliber on 22/04/2008 23:13:05
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Maliber i was just voicing my opinion. .... Its just that i think this program breaks a part of eve I like... Roaming...
plz break tha program.....
I'm sure it's that simple and they've just never thought about that at all. Genius.
Also: two wrongs... etc
i simpified the post for you. Still something wrong....
p.s. ow and it ruins small roaming gangs...
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kvirie ... stuff...
I totaly agree...
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 09:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: RebelWithACause Trolling aside, let's look at the evidence:
4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it. Defending CCP by saying that we shouldn't have released it because it uncovered a hole is silly. Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Others (constructive)?
I must disagree with this statement. It does automate a action: looking at local chat and prosessing the changes in local for you. followed by alerting you when a undesired change occors. Thus requiring LESS mental effort and/or capacity of the user. While the information is present you change it to require less effort.
Lets look up automation on wikipedia, i've enboldend the relevant sections: Automation (ancient Greek: = self dictated), roboticization[1] or industrial automation or numerical control is the use of control systems such as computers to control industrial machinery and processes, replacing human operators.[1] In the scope of industrialization, it is a step beyond mechanization. Whereas mechanization provided human operators with machinery to assist them with the physical requirements of work, automation greatly reduces the need for human sensory and mental requirements as well. Processes and systems can also be automated.
While you are correct on the fact that security trough obscurity never works. And i must say its good that you guys made it public. BUT this doesnt explain why you seem to be in favour of the use of such a "exploit/security hole". Its clear that it gains ppl already in a system a advantage and this is probably why there is a heated debate about it.
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 11:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aclyn Seriy I would just like clarification from a Dev or GM regarding the use of of "similar programs" by some of the larger alliances.
Since it is well known that CCP staff have toons within these alliances, and that in the past some of these staff have shown a predisposition to unethical behaviour, it does not engender a feeling of fair and equal treatment when it comes to dealing with such matters as these.
I would not be alone in wondering whether the alliances would continue to get "special treatment" What reassurances can CCP provide that "similar programs" to bacon used by said alliances will also cease to function?
I was going to reply on how badly concealed your anti bob slander train was and stuff. containing lines on how old that argument is, how irrelevant and on how good the brainwashing is on these forums. Then concluding with the fact that goons actually used a similar program to bacon. But in the end I thought well what the hell its useless anyway.
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 17:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: RebelWithACause
4) {snip} Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Originally by: Maliber
{snip} While you are correct on the fact that security trough obscurity never works. And i must say its good that you guys made it public. BUT this doesnt explain why you seem to be in favour of the use of such a "exploit/security hole". Its clear that it gains ppl already in a system a advantage and this is probably why there is a heated debate about it.
You are defining BACON as an exploit. CCP has not. Therefore, it's not. They don't like it (their words), but they have not defined it as an exploit, hack, or macro. Therefore, it is not. See point #1 in my post concerning this.
My point was that as you see fit to apply the security through obscurity argument. It seemed logical to me to call it a "exploit/security hole". As you can see its between quotation marks signalling unusual use of the words. I added these because there is no consensus about it being a "exploit/security hole". You can call it unintended use, a bug or well whatever. Its fine if you disagree on this point with me, but then its improper to use the security through obscurity argument.
Originally by: RebelWithACause
You state that it "automate(s) a(n) action" requiring "requiring LESS mental effort". I actually strongly disgaree here. In fact, if you had actually USED the software, you will find that it takes MORE mental work, since now you have to pay attention to both visual clues (ships entering your grid, rats, gate fire, etc) AND aural clues (BACON notification).
Hmmm i'm not sure I understand you correctly here surely you don't mean to say that with BACON you don't need 2 persons but can do both with 1? (1 for scouting and 1 ratting vs 1 ratting and paying attention to bacon)
If you mean that now there is more sensory input due to the added sound instead of just visual information. Then I must disagree as this visual information is in a seperate window and isn't filtered for you.
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 20:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Commoner
You cannot use BACON as a scout to an adjacent system, BACON does the same as local chat, only by representing that information as audio. Hearing is not "automatic" in any more sense than seeing is. Put on some earplugs, or listen to music and BACON becomes unusable.
Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
But looking at local requires some effort. Hearing a sound warning you doesn't. Thus using BACON requires LESS mental effort! It's even advertised as such: "Never Be Surprised Again" Why do you try to convince everyone including me it doesnt make things easier? Or that it doesn't change anything? If it was this useless it would never have been written. Right?
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 08:22:00 -
[9]
I think its sad that ppl try to derail this thread just so the topic dies. Its a important topic an should be discussed |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 12:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense?
To make it bannable, it should be detectable. That is the problem atm. But on the bright side they are working on it.
|
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 14:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: olzi Won't be long until someone modifies the code so that instead of giving a local sound warning, the info is uploaded to a server. Put some neutral alts to a few bottleneck systems and you have a fully automated system of tracking hostiles through your territory. Might even do it myself, CCP has a long history of not doing anything until a feature is horribly abused.
Code is already in the source for that just commented out. So it would be easy to adapt.... When you get a good data tracking system you might want to let us know :( Has anyone looked at the logfile parser and ways of fooling it?
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 14:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Torrid Crush
I mean with all this technology who in their right mind wouldn't be able to make their ship beep at them if a hostile is detected by the ships computer?
This feature just makes sense.
Its kinda besides the point aint it? And its not a feature of eve but a "security hole/bug/exploit/cheat/allowed but not liked 3rd party program"
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 09:54:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix {stuff}
Sir you have been brainwashed by the goon paranoia virus. Its not your fault, it rages rabid on these fora. But please seek help! Maybe the other program was just the goon bee tracker? Its not always as bad as you think... Oh and to reassure you: No none these 3rd party programs have nothing to do with chemtrails. They will not disrupt your free energy device. And no they are certainly not at all part of the bob plot to take over the world...
ohh.. And don't try to derail the thread by implying other alliances where favoured by ccp. That discussion is old, irrelevant and smells of French cheese.
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 11:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aclyn Seriy
Hmmm, Im sorry to dissapoint you sir, but I am not anti-BoB, nor anti any of the other alliances. In fact I have old comrades in BoB whom I would happily re-join if the offer were made. My original question still stands however, so if you have anything constructive to say, please do so.
They couldn't provide any proof as they probably lack the source code of these programs. Or at least it will be hard to proof that its impossible to use logs to try something similar like this. But its probably reasonable to expect that similar programs will cease to function if bacon does by altering the log format and/or local mentioning in the logs.
Its also reasonable to expect that ccp will not start a "arms race" and opt for a small solution which can be countered. As they stated before bacon, they want to change local anyway. I hope they will, and by doing this they will make all programs using the log server obsolete.
One should keep in mind that the rumoured special treatment is usually part of propaganda for a raging war. And that ccp has limited resources so they can not tackle every problem at once. A limited amount of ppl using a tool is unfair but probably acceptable if once is designing changes for it already. They do not have to alert the public as its there game. And if they would it would create unrest and it could be seen as "special treatment" to the other party so there is no gain for ccp in doing so.
|
|
|
|