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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:30:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Chribba I'd say we need a proper CCP investigation of this, to see weather or not this runs on the macro list. Automated software for notifying a pilot of in-game events... automated software for clicking a button every minute...
tbh I'm not that happy with the "feature" this software adds. But have yet to see a proper CCP statement after doing a more deep check.
Honestly, we tried to emulate your trusted third party-ness with this tool. We've bent over backwards to be transparent, CCP compliant, and open with this tool. We've tried to give EVERYONE access to the same things at the same time, while balancing being able to release a usable product.
Again, open source, GPL, and accountable to CCP. I wish I could do more for you, because quite honestly, I think you and we are on the right path.
This is my PERSONAL opinion, not a statement of Gunfleet policy. I think you will find that most of us agree with this post, however.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:21:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Agor Dirdonen
Anyway, I'm not touching that program with even a stick. Usually the goons keep such things for themselves and now they want us all to install it on our pc's? ... for the sake of the community I'm sure...
1. BACON is Open Source, released under the GPL. At this point, over 100 unique IPs have downloaded the source. You can verify it: we do ONLY what we say we do. 2. Gunfleet Logistics has no relationship to Goonfleet.
Originally by: sakana
Did you believe you were doing a good thing for the game when you did this? No of course you didn;t ;)
One of the many reasons that we released under the GPL was simply Gunfleet Logistics' belief that keeping tools like BACON secret is unfair to the average player. If everyone has BACON, there is no advantage to be gained.
I might also add, we specifically chose to give CCP advance notice of the deal, ask questions about EULA compliance, make CCP suggested changes to our code, and release under the GPL as a guarantee of transparency.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:16:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Skyr
You are probably right on the ball. I applaud goons for wresting CCP's hand into doing something about local finally as I don't see any other way they can cripple this app without breaking logserver which is is VERY essential for debugging EVE client problems.
GUNFLEET LOGISTICS IS NOT GOONFLEET. We're not related, we've got no standings, we've never been a part of them, they of us, or anything of the sort.
Likewise, this is not a HYDRA app. This is a GUNFLEET LOGISTICS app that HYDRA got to beta for a very brief time before launch. They did a great job, and spotted bugs and suggested improvements. And suggested we have CCP clarify some issues for us. Which CCP did.
People... Most of the information in this thread is like this. There are so many conspiracy theories in this thread, with the source available, and archived. Go look for yourself, and ask some questions. Or best yet, stop yelling about what Gunfleet thought, and ask us...
I suppose it's too much to ask, considering many posters can't even figure out who published the app.
Lastly, regarding advertising... TBH, I thought this thread would be much more about technical questions and much less about griefer tears. And this thread is the only thing we've posted on the subject other than the technical thread in the OP. So... I guess we're viral marketing geniuses, or something?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:14:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Reuser on 21/04/2008 20:15:33
Originally by: Quartex
Reuser and Hydra should be praised for presenting this up front, as it forces the issue. A fresh debate is being had both in the community and no doubt in the offices of CCP.
To be clear, Cesar Malari is the author of BACON, and Gunfleet Logistics is the corp behind the tool. Eron and I have fielded some of the responses, as BACON had input from most of us, and launch has truly been a group effort.
Also, as I said before, our alliance, HYDRA had a brief testing period, and assisted with bugs, typos, feature requests and recommendations.
Thanks!
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ... Sorry.
Your last line sums up your post quite nicely. You have an amazing amount of insight into our corporation, development process and motives or lack thereof for someone who is not in our corporation. +1 for rank speculation and outright fabrications, though.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 17:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Glad to finally have some more CCP input on the situation!
A quick question - if CCP has known about "the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players", why has it taken the release of a tool to "level the playing field" as it were, for you to address the problem?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 17:55:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Other than that, Any chance of getting my question answered CCP? I'm not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to argue for BACON. Our corp is hardly a one-trick pony, and we've got quite a few other projects we're working on. We knew this was a likely outcome of releasing BACON. :)
But, I really must know... If CCP has known that large groups are using tools like this for quite some time, why has it taken the release of an open tool to force them into action?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 AFAIK, Avon joined BoB long after the T20 scandal; and to be fair, there are other corps/alliances which have used similar tools.
I am not jumping to BoB's defence ehre, but Avon's. He does know what he's talking about.
(Sorry at this point I brought BoB into this.)
CCP admits that large groups of people have been using these tools, presumably for a long time. I'd just like to understand a bit more why the decision is being made now, rather than in the past. I don't see how covert use of the tools is better than an open, fair, playing field.
Either way, CCP has our IRC channel info, and if they would prefer that venue or PM to answer my questions, I certainly understand that. Again, I am not trying to cause trouble, just to understand the thinking. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 02:00:00 -
[9]
Quote: Military radar and warning systems exist due to a lack of dangleberries which is why they were created, right?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 02:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DroneBay Diva
Edit: Yes, I would also like to thank (you heard me) Gunfleet for bringing this to the public eye and therefor level the playing field for everyone.
Honestly, we're not married to BACON. And you're welcome.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 14:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr Why is this thread still going?
Why has anyone not yet reported the hidden keylogging in the software?
Yeah. Because we're stupid enough to put a keylogger in something we've open sourced.
Go back to your bridge, troll.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zurrar wasnt GFL that cult that was raided in texas (yet again) this past month?
Yes, and we're out of teenage girls. Can we have yours?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 17:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Anaesthera Does this work on Vista?
Yes.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: NightmareX
So what you are saying that even when many of those are using more advanced programs than BEACON, then it means that you then can make more of those apps?, just because some others are doing it?.
What I am saying is that Gunfleet has been very careful to respect the EULA, the TOS and the will of CCP throughout this launch. We're not interested in creating EULA or TOS breaking tools.
On a personal note, I find the fury about BACON surprising, considering that according to CCP large groups of people are already using similar tools. I also find it surprising that people aren't criticizing the huge swath of illegal tools that actually do what BACON has been accused of doing - automating game play.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
I don't have to make a thread. CCP Grimmi TOLD YOU, in this very thread. See below. My highlights, for emphasis. On the flip side, it's not my job to do your intel work for you. Go do some footwork and find out for yourself. Even if I told you who was using the tools, would you trust me?
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Avon Let me get this absolutely straight.
It is now your claim that CCP and Gunfleet worked together to develop an application which CCP frown upon?
Just, wow.
Actually, since you do seem to be pretty knowledgeable about things... Why don't you tell Cesar how much communication he has had with the devs? Like the rest of the thread, I'm sure you know the content of those communications as well.
You'll fit nicely with all the other folks telling Cesar what he thought and why he created BACON. Likewise, you'll fit in nicely with all the hordes of folks telling CCP what they think.
*sighs* I think this thread is finally getting to me.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Avon
MSN, amirite?
No.. wait..
*laughs* Well played, sir!
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:28:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Reuser on 29/04/2008 21:31:48 (double post.)
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
if you give a child an unloaded pistol and tell him he can hold it while simultaneously giving his child friend next door a clip full of bullets, you have created a volitle situation. If you provide and fight for the right to use Bacon with the knowledge of the ease with which it is to modify and potentially used in methods outside your intention, you clearly have created a dangerous product, first of all which breaks EULA TOS whatever, and secondly any deriviative and or upgrade can be used in an improper manner, your product should be removed, no if ands or buts about it
Great argument there. Using your logic, screwdriver manufacturers should be stopped as their product can be used to prise a door open. Computer OS producers and machine language designers? They definately should be stopped because their products can be used to break the law. Likewise, those Ubuntu folks? They're nothing more than a platform for piracy.
Argument planning board, please go back to it.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 00:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ki An
Good question. To be able to post on killboards and use corporate forums while in game? If you think that an in-game browser justifies automated tools you're pretty messed up.
The browser is a gateway to the Internet as a whole.
My corporation has an IGB app that AUTOMATES selecting the best ore to mine, given a particular market that you select, and the system you are currently in: http://gunfleet.org/igb/mining.php
I've even seen jump planners that AUTOMATE the task of planning your jumps. I mean, you just select things in dropdown boxes and it PLANS YOUR ROUTE!
OMGWTFBBQ. We're even bigger sploiters than I thought.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 00:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shadow Joy
Do you even know what the word automate means?
I assure you that I do. Which version of the definition are you looking for? Can we agree on the OED as the canonical source?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:17:00 -
[22]
Please check my edit, above. OED sub died.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shadow Joy
By the definition you seem to be using a pocket calculator is equivalent to using a macro to auto-log off the moment someone enters local.
Does BACON do that? No, it doesn't. Stick to the topic at hand.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Thorradin
So tell me, when you run BACON, do you watch local? You don't? Then BACON is taking action for you, it is replacing your need to watch local to protect yourself.
If the logserver gave info that allowed me to make a program to warn you that your drones are taking damage, it'd be no different than BACON, just in a different area.
1. Yes, I generally watch local. Years of habit.
2. Good gravy, you're right! We can interface with our spaceships on a molecular level, but there is NO FREAKIN WAY our drones could tell us they are taking damage. Likewise, I have a HUGE FREAKIN advantage because I run a 24" monitor portrait right next to my 30" monitor. My 24" is ONLY used to display a vastly expanded local list. SPLOIT!
Is there any way at all this discussion can return to valid, well-reasoned arguments?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 02:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Thorradin
You know, I'd like to have a program that beeps when my cap gets below a certain point, same with shields, armor and hull. Why don't you get to work on it? Maybe CCP can hire you do the next expansion:
EVE : The Musical Age
You sensist poltroon. Why should your eyes get preference?
More than that, all of those things are things that SHOULD be in EVE, from a usability standpoint. Game designers SHOULD take into account your ears. I don't know how many times I've knifed someone in COD4 that moved a little too loudly. CCP has neglected game audio so badly that most players play with it off. That say something to you?
Lastly, if CCP is smart, they would hire Cesar. I've been in the software industry for many moons, and he's one of the best I've ever worked with, seen, or even heard mentioned. He translates ideas into reality with an amazing ease, speed, and clarity. I've personally dumped 100s of thousands of dollars of company money on projects Cesar would have shrugged off in a night. He's just that frelling good. (This coming from a person that has worked intimately with developers resolving issues on the fly for nationally-televised keynotes and addresses.)
Again, can this discussion return to reality and well-reasoned discourse?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 04:11:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Phant Zon A man whose brains are so scrambled by the vibrations of the righteous dub that composing this short post is a miracle...
Regardless of your intentions, you've got great prose. +1!
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