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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kix'i
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:22:00 -
[421]
Problem isn't the logserver, its local.
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DanMck
Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:29:00 -
[422]
bacon is cheating plan and simple
it's eve's wall hack
how can this be allowed ?
a macro ratter/miners wet dream
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Benglada
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:31:00 -
[423]
This is bull****. Are you too freaking handicapped to just pay attention to local? ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Skyr
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:34:00 -
[424]
Originally by: DanMck bacon is cheating plan and simple
it's eve's wall hack
how can this be allowed ?
a macro ratter/miners wet dream
It is not dream, it is already in use for a long time.
Few weeks ago I took a tour thru Drone regions and spotted few ratters on several occasions. You know how long they stayed in local?
About 2-3s after I jumped in. That's ALL OF THEM, in separate systems, different times.
I still saw their ravens on scanner so that tells me that they were using some software to auto log off as nobody is this vigilant.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:50:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Skyr
Originally by: DanMck bacon is cheating plan and simple
it's eve's wall hack
how can this be allowed ?
a macro ratter/miners wet dream
It is not dream, it is already in use for a long time.
Few weeks ago I took a tour thru Drone regions and spotted few ratters on several occasions. You know how long they stayed in local?
About 2-3s after I jumped in. That's ALL OF THEM, in separate systems, different times.
I still saw their ravens on scanner so that tells me that they were using some software to auto log off as nobody is this vigilant.
He's right, I've seen many other complaints about this particular type behavior from macro ratters. Absolutely nothing new there. Those people are a lost cause and already break all of the rules.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Quartex
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:58:00 -
[426]
The balance of play and power in Eve has moved back and forth between Carebear and PvPer since I started playing this game.
The last big deal was the introduction of warp to 0, then we had aggression timers and the useabilty of scanning.
The difference here is that a precedent has been set for the permissable use of third party software. Let's not kid ourselves; most of the player base is un-aware of the spread of software like this, to add an edge to the performance of the big Alliances.
What must be resisted is a slide towards consensual PvP, which has been a point of difference for Eve online for sometime.
Reuser and Hydra should be praised for presenting this up front, as it forces the issue. A fresh debate is being had both in the community and no doubt in the offices of CCP.
The outcome will be a further change to the balance of play. In the past, I think I am right in saying, that the "local chat" debate has been evenly divided at CCP between those wanting a change and those who think it should be protected.
My contribution to the debate is;
1. Allow local in Empire 2. Remove local in low sec and nul sec. 3. Remove local in missions and "rooms". 4. Leave Bacon et al in place, it'll not disappear now anyway and logging is needed by CCP. 5. Present the alternatives to the newly elected "Player Parliament" and let them canvas opinion and present the arguments so that a democratic vote can be had.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:14:00 -
[427]
Edited by: Reuser on 21/04/2008 20:15:33
Originally by: Quartex
Reuser and Hydra should be praised for presenting this up front, as it forces the issue. A fresh debate is being had both in the community and no doubt in the offices of CCP.
To be clear, Cesar Malari is the author of BACON, and Gunfleet Logistics is the corp behind the tool. Eron and I have fielded some of the responses, as BACON had input from most of us, and launch has truly been a group effort.
Also, as I said before, our alliance, HYDRA had a brief testing period, and assisted with bugs, typos, feature requests and recommendations.
Thanks!
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Savlin
Gallente principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:21:00 -
[428]
Does this mean that CCP accepts and allowes other forms of automated gaming software?
Bacon ==fail Macro ==fail iskselling ==fail
PVP == win
Someone said that bacon should be allowed in empire but not in 0.0 I agree with that but cannot see how this is done from a technical viewpoint.
sig here
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PwnzDeLeOwnz
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:22:00 -
[429]
I fully support bacon.
You see, I am a chronic masterb*tor. When I get the urge, I can be afk for hours on end and come back to find that my barge has been destroyed. With bacon I have the default sound for a hostile set as the sound of my parents coming up the stairs. Whenever I hear that, I zip up and dash to the computer by instinct and blow it in my pants where it's hidden.
Now with bacon, I save my barge and get off at the same time!
Thanks Bacon!
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Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:37:00 -
[430]
I just looked up the EULA and despite what CCP have said, I still feel this program breaches it:
Originally by: EVE ONLINE EULA CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
The red bold text refers to third-party software which modifies the UI (sound is included in the UI), or otherwise imparts beneficial effects on the player (Alerts of war targets qualify as this).
Now, if anyone wishes to say that this is NOT in breach of the EULA, please explain how. ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors! |
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5n4keyes
Sacred Templars DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:46:00 -
[431]
Ummmm not to point out the obvious, but chat logs can be delayed upto 60 seconds!
This means that there could be a whole minute pass without you knowing anything!
This program just encourages lazyness, and shows peoples inability to check local!
I guess thats why theres alot of people roaming Hydra space these days... BACON means more kills
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:49:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Firane Edited by: Firane on 21/04/2008 16:32:07
Wow what a ****ty app.
Another reason this game is going down the toilet.
-----
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Miki Fin
Gallente Independant Union of Rangers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:07:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Karentaki Edited by: Karentaki on 21/04/2008 20:54:34 I just looked up the EULA and despite what CCP have said, I still feel this program breaches it:
Originally by: EVE ONLINE EULA CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
EDIT:
Originally by: TERMS OF SERVICE 21. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. ... 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site.
The red bold text refers to third-party software which modifies the UI (sound is included in the UI), or otherwise imparts beneficial effects on the player (Alerts of war targets qualify as this).
EDIT: Also added some stuff from the TOS which outlaws all third-party apps unless they are expressly permitted by CCP (as is the case with EveMon and others)
Now, if anyone wishes to say that this is NOT in breach of the EULA, please explain how.
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
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lord mouse
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:08:00 -
[434]
CCP how could you
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lord mouse
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:10:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Miki Fin
Originally by: Karentaki stuff
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
those programs dont use files from the eve client.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:14:00 -
[436]
Originally by: lord mouse
Originally by: Miki Fin
Originally by: Karentaki stuff
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
those programs dont use files from the eve client.
Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:16:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Miki Fin
Originally by: Karentaki STUFF
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
Yes, they are in breach of the TOS, but they seem to be endorsed by CCP (stickys and stuff) so they are an exception to this rule. However, the difference is these provide functionality that is already in eve, whereas BACON adds functionality, breaching the EULA (The one that really matters). ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors! |
lord mouse
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:17:00 -
[438]
Edited by: lord mouse on 21/04/2008 21:18:18
Originally by: James Lyrus Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile.
huh? how is parsing a log file created by the eve client not using a file from the eve client?
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:24:00 -
[439]
Originally by: lord mouse Edited by: lord mouse on 21/04/2008 21:18:18
Originally by: James Lyrus Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile.
huh? how is parsing a log file created by the eve client not using a file from the eve client?
If you read the EULA carefully, the prohibiton is about modifying game files. Reading a file is not modyifying it.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:28:00 -
[440]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas If you read the EULA carefully, the prohibiton is about modifying game files. Reading a file is not modyifying it.
BACON doesn't just read the data.
It sorts the data and alerts the user to specific portions of the data, in real time, according to pre-defined criteria.
It removes the need for ordinary player actions by automating them.
That is a violation of the EULA.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:35:00 -
[441]
Originally by: lord mouse Edited by: lord mouse on 21/04/2008 21:18:18
Originally by: James Lyrus Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile.
huh? how is parsing a log file created by the eve client not using a file from the eve client?
In the same way that posting a screenshot, created by the eve client, to eve files isn't.
Or hell, sometimes people *shock* edit screenys too. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:44:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Torik Tavitas If you read the EULA carefully, the prohibiton is about modifying game files. Reading a file is not modyifying it.
BACON doesn't just read the data.
It sorts the data and alerts the user to specific portions of the data, in real time, according to pre-defined criteria.
It removes the need for ordinary player actions by automating them.
That is a violation of the EULA.
Reading data with a program is essentially the same regardless of the data and the program.
Reading a JPEG file, and decompressing it, to view it, and edit it in paint, is actually more processing than this logfile parser is doing.
How do you distinguish the two?
It's also not eliminating any player action - it's just matching a log, and playing a beep. You still have to logoffski, warp to your safe, cloak, or whatever.
But at the end of the day, the semantics don't matter - bottom line is 'exploit' is defined by CCP. Problem here, is it's pretty hard to tell the difference between 'exploit' and 'normal use' - it's not going to be obvious on the client, it's not going to be possible to tell remotely, since it doesn't change anything apart from act as a substitute for 'having local pinned on your backdrop'.
-- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:04:00 -
[443]
Edited by: Cori4n on 21/04/2008 22:04:26
Originally by: Miki Fin 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site.
As you noted this would ban every EVE-related tool in existence.
But I don't really understand why everyone likes to quote the EULA here. As it is, CCP has stated clearly that BACON is presently to be treated as EULA-compliant. Neither its author nor its users will get banned for it. If CCP decides to outlaw it (I do hope they don't), they will either claim it now counts as breaking one of the EULA's terms, or, if it doesn't, they will modify the EULA so that it does. The EULA's actual text is, to be honest, irrelevant...
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:27:00 -
[444]
Hmm I have not yet tested this tool,however to be honest,I don't see why all the complaints. CCP has said that as of now the tool is within the EULA and the OP has provided the link and CCP names to back that up. Although,like I said,I haven't tested this tool yet(I am at the university library),I think this tool will provide for even more intense PVP as it opens tactical possibilities quite a bit.I am not going to go further into details as I need to test it,but personally i am looking at this tool as a so much needed expansion of the tactical possibilities for PVP. I think also that everyone needs to take a deep breath,a step back and let CCP do their job. If CCP finds that at the end this tool violates the EULA and ToS, they will inform the owner of this tool,they will inform the users. So,please do take a deep breath,a step back and enjoy the game
EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:48:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Reuser Likewise, this is not a HYDRA app. This is a GUNFLEET LOGISTICS app that HYDRA got to beta for a very brief time before launch. They did a great job, and spotted bugs and suggested improvements. And suggested we have CCP clarify some issues for us. Which CCP did.
Nobody cares. To us, you are Hydra. Gunfleet Logistics to us is honestly some tool of a corp hiding behind an alliance and that's the fact.
Additionally, the fact that you're in Hydra does not assist your release. Also, you opted not to show your alliance tags initially, which makes me skeptical as to your motives.
Your corp is not going to receive any praise from this, believe me. The guy that made it is, but stop representing it as "A Gunfleet Logistics Release" because nobody gives a crap.
Sorry.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:50:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix however to be honest,I don't see why all the complaints.
how can you not see what all the complaints are there? this isn't warp to 0, this is beyond allowing people to be lazy to the point of ridiculousness, its like condoning the logoffski, it basically allows someone as soon as they here *DING! FRIES ARE DONE* to log out run and do whatever. its utter crap
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
CCP has said....
CCP has said alot of things, and the people at CCP have changed over the years so just cause some statements are made, if you go back to the last few monumental boners that have been uttered, the phrase "with a grain of salt" barely represents the tip of the iceberg on this one... if anything they should remove local in 0.0 and low sec, not add a diaper and handywipes
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:05:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ... Sorry.
Your last line sums up your post quite nicely. You have an amazing amount of insight into our corporation, development process and motives or lack thereof for someone who is not in our corporation. +1 for rank speculation and outright fabrications, though.
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Major Death
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:28:00 -
[448]
Edited by: Major Death on 21/04/2008 23:28:14 How is any of this new? Macro ratters and pharmers have been auto warping and logging off since 2006 (or earlier). And how is this any different from other meta-gaming ploys e.g. login traps, e.t.c?
My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!' |
Cerulean Fire
Gallente Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:42:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
You know, just because every kid in class is cheating on the test doesn't mean that you have to, as well. Interesting that you imply that even though you believe this program is ruining EVE, you'll still use it... Just a thought. IISUN is Recruiting \o/
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:44:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Cerulean Fire
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
You know, just because every kid in class is cheating on the test doesn't mean that you have to, as well. Interesting that you imply that even though you believe this program is ruining EVE, you'll still use it... Just a thought.
What? For the amount of protesting I'm doing I think it's pretty clear I am against this type of loophole through backdoors and software dumps/logs.
I'm not going to use it.
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