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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 17:58:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Uh, the GM said it was allowed, in that it violates no rules. They will change things such that it won't work in the future, but that doesn't change the entire not violating the EULA thing.
The GM said it doesn't technically violate the TOS or the EULA, but that it's use is frowned upon. To people who aren't ******** or cheaters, this means that since CCP has no way of enforcing a ban, they can just say that they frown upon it's use until they have changed the game so that it can't be used.
In this respect, saying that something is "frowned upon" is the strongest reaction CCP can give. Saying that it is allowed is therefore bending the truth quite a bit.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.22 17:59:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Uh, the GM said it was allowed, in that it violates no rules. They will change things such that it won't work in the future, but that doesn't change the entire not violating the EULA thing.
Just because it isn't explicitly covered in the EULA as it stands does not mean it is okay, just that it isn't currently a technical infringement .. yet.
IF CCP considered it legitimate gameplay they wouldn't be changing things to prevent it, would they?
The fact that it isn't yet covered in the EULA is *not* an endorsement. |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.22 17:59:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Jessica Lorelei Edited by: Jessica Lorelei on 21/04/2008 10:38:49 if the ships computer sees fit to play a hideous warp noise despite space being SILENT, why the hell cant it play a noise when someone enters local?
what kind of backwards ship designer forgot to add that feature?
ccp add audio alerts and be done with it.
Yes, and if the ship didn't have an infinite range, instant updating early warning scanner (local as it stands), I'd agree with this (as mentioned earlier in the thread) as it would add a lot to the immersion if you had alarms go off when something got with in X million km / Y AU of your ship... |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:01:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Excuse me?
I have never cheated in Eve, and nor have I ever used an application like Bacon.
If you want to make an accusation against me, petition.
I find your post insulting tbh. |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:06:00 -
[635]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Thank you.
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zacuis
Great Big Research
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:10:00 -
[636]
i fully expect ccp to add this program as a feature of the game. anyone remember when u didnt used to get a standings icon on local but there were so many programs going about that did it for u and were undecectable that ccp said dam it let every one have the ability. i see this happening here too
that said im not against such a change. i honestly dont think it will make a big difference to the game.
actually it might mean that i start playing with the sound on again lol as im sure 95% of players dont have sound enabled |
ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:11:00 -
[637]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
<3
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Blood Daemon
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:13:00 -
[638]
Originally by: zacuis
actually it might mean that i start playing with the sound on again lol as im sure 95% of players dont have sound enabled ***in-game***
Fixed... Don't they just disable sound in-game??.. And I would suspect that bacon would create a sound out of EVE, so generally speaking even people without sound can still benefiet from this?.. |
Commoner
Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:17:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Other than that, Any chance of getting my question answered CCP? I'm not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to argue for BACON. Our corp is hardly a one-trick pony, and we've got quite a few other projects we're working on. We knew this was a likely outcome of releasing BACON. :)
But, I really must know... If CCP has known that large groups are using tools like this for quite some time, why has it taken the release of an open tool to force them into action?
Aside from the fact that only a select few in BoB knew anything about the BPO scandal and that Avon probably knew nothing.......
...I agree with you, if large alliances had been using this app covertly, then nothing would have been done, which is far worse than you opening the public eyes to what is possible with the logserver.
Actually it weeds out in cheaters. |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:20:00 -
[640]
AFAIK, Avon joined BoB long after the T20 scandal; and to be fair, there are other corps/alliances which have used similar tools.
I am not jumping to BoB's defence ehre, but Avon's. He does know what he's talking about. |
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:21:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Glad to finally have some more CCP input on the situation!
A quick question - if CCP has known about "the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players", why has it taken the release of a tool to "level the playing field" as it were, for you to address the problem?
This is a fair point, and deserves an explanation IMO. But in the meantime...
Thank you Hydra and the developers of BACON for bringing this longstanding inequality and unintended use of the logserver to CCP's attention. |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:25:00 -
[642]
In the meantime...
I can't actually get BACON to work on this computer () but...
Anyone who can, try pasting this into some chat channel you're in ScatterEvent( OnLSC ,*args= ((('solarsystemid2', 0),), 0, 'JoinChannel', (0, 0, [0, u'x', 0], 0, 0), ()) ,**kw= {} )
If I'm right (just from looking at the source), BACON will match this and incorrectly report a neutral entering...
I could be wrong though, seeing as BACON won't work at all for me |
Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:26:00 -
[643]
Originally by: Ki An The GM said it doesn't technically violate the TOS or the EULA, but that it's use is frowned upon. To people who aren't ******** or cheaters, this means that since CCP has no way of enforcing a ban, they can just say that they frown upon it's use until they have changed the game so that it can't be used.
In this respect, saying that something is "frowned upon" is the strongest reaction CCP can give. Saying that it is allowed is therefore bending the truth quite a bit.
No. The strongest reaction they can give is to forbid its use. 'Frowning' upon it is meaningless.
Calling people cheaters for doing something that CCP stated is not in violation of the EULA is bending the truth.
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Mars Magnus
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:28:00 -
[644]
Edited by: Mars Magnus on 22/04/2008 18:32:11
Originally by: GM Grimmi ... the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players ...
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
The common Eve player does not have access to such tools unless they are "in the know". Does this make any of you who DON'T have access to tools like these mad at the fact only certain privileged people used them (probably against you)?. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:28:00 -
[645]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 AFAIK, Avon joined BoB long after the T20 scandal; and to be fair, there are other corps/alliances which have used similar tools.
I am not jumping to BoB's defence ehre, but Avon's. He does know what he's talking about.
(Sorry at this point I brought BoB into this.)
CCP admits that large groups of people have been using these tools, presumably for a long time. I'd just like to understand a bit more why the decision is being made now, rather than in the past. I don't see how covert use of the tools is better than an open, fair, playing field.
Either way, CCP has our IRC channel info, and if they would prefer that venue or PM to answer my questions, I certainly understand that. Again, I am not trying to cause trouble, just to understand the thinking. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:31:00 -
[646]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Other than that, Any chance of getting my question answered CCP? I'm not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to argue for BACON. Our corp is hardly a one-trick pony, and we've got quite a few other projects we're working on. We knew this was a likely outcome of releasing BACON. :)
But, I really must know... If CCP has known that large groups are using tools like this for quite some time, why has it taken the release of an open tool to force them into action?
I don't see what Avon being in BoB has to do with it. God knows I am not a BoB fanboy , but this discussion is in no way related to what BoB did or did not do. If a development is detrimental to the game (which I think this is), then CCP needs to address it.
And I would not go on pure hearsay that 'big alliances' use this already. If that had been the case, it would have been known by now. Aside from alliances being too big to cover that kind of stuff up, each and every one of them is so riddled with spies that a tool like this, if used by many people would be discovered soon enough.
I do recall ASCN developing something that was a bit similar to this, but based on an ingame website and member input to report systems as clear or not clear. It was never really used much though technically it worked (I think), but perhaps that is where such rumors originated from. |
Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:33:00 -
[647]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
I ♥ GM Grimmi
Thank you for returning my faith in CCP |
RebelWithACause
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:36:00 -
[648]
Originally by: Mars Magnus
Originally by: GM Grimmi ... the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players ...
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
The common Eve player does not have access to such tools unless they are "in the know". Does this make any of you who DON'T have access to tools like these mad at the fact that CCP has known all along that only certain privileged people used them (probably against you)?.
Whether you like BACON or not, how can this not bug EVERYONE on this thread? CCP has openly admitted that they KNEW others were ALREADY using similar tools... We just had the guts to bring it to light, for better or worse.
I use BACON, I like BACON, but I see a frightening impact of encrypting the logserver info vs removing local (both valid responses):
What would stop CCP from handing out the decrypt key to 'key alliances' of their choosing? (you can't tell me that others aren't as paranoid as I am). |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:36:00 -
[649]
Originally by: Cori4n Edited by: Cori4n on 22/04/2008 18:31:27 In the meantime...
I can't actually get BACON to work on this computer () but...
Anyone who can, try pasting this into some chat channel you're in ScatterEvent( OnLSC ,*args= ((('solarsystemid2', 0),), 0, 'JoinChannel', (0, 0, [0, u'x', 0], 0, 0), ()) ,**kw= {} )
If I'm right (just from looking at the source), BACON will match this and incorrectly report a neutral entering... if you pasted into local, everyone in the system who had BACON would get that...
I could be wrong though, seeing as BACON won't work at all for me
I wish I could help you.But I am having my own problems with BACON,meaning that I am unable to get a standing list to work |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:39:00 -
[650]
Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 18:41:39 Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 18:39:34
Originally by: RebelWithACause
Originally by: Mars Magnus
Originally by: GM Grimmi ... the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players ...
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
The common Eve player does not have access to such tools unless they are "in the know". Does this make any of you who DON'T have access to tools like these mad at the fact that CCP has known all along that only certain privileged people used them (probably against you)?.
Whether you like BACON or not, how can this not bug EVERYONE on this thread? CCP has openly admitted that they KNEW others were ALREADY using similar tools... We just had the guts to bring it to light, for better or worse.
I use BACON, I like BACON, but I see a frightening impact of encrypting the logserver info vs removing local (both valid responses):
What would stop CCP from handing out the decrypt key to 'key alliances' of their choosing? (you can't tell me that others aren't as paranoid as I am).
Very good point. CCP has more or less recognized that alliances/corps have been using such tools and they didn't do anything. However when a public tool which does what those private tools were already doing is released for all to use, people ask for it to be banned and CCP plans to take action. Personally I see this as a double standard which doesn't promise much for fairness And now that CCP has recognized being aware of alliances/corps using such tools, the bottom line for me is as follow:
-either CCP bans all such tools and provides proof that no privileged corps/alliances are able to circumvent the system -either CCP authorizes such tools for all to use |
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Orchid Ix
Behind The Stars
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:46:00 -
[651]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
I don't see what Avon being in BoB has to do with it. God knows I am not a BoB fanboy , but this discussion is in no way related to what BoB did or did not do.
BoB is the Eve Online whipping boy now where have you been?
As such I never saw this type of tool used while I was flying around under the BoB flag...
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:50:00 -
[652]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: FireFoxx80 AFAIK, Avon joined BoB long after the T20 scandal; and to be fair, there are other corps/alliances which have used similar tools.
I am not jumping to BoB's defence ehre, but Avon's. He does know what he's talking about.
(Sorry at this point I brought BoB into this.)
CCP admits that large groups of people have been using these tools, presumably for a long time. I'd just like to understand a bit more why the decision is being made now, rather than in the past. I don't see how covert use of the tools is better than an open, fair, playing field.
Either way, CCP has our IRC channel info, and if they would prefer that venue or PM to answer my questions, I certainly understand that. Again, I am not trying to cause trouble, just to understand the thinking.
You're being targeted because you've gone public. Plenty of people use this sort of thing, either privately within a corp/alliance, or personally without telling a soul.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:54:00 -
[653]
It's okay, I can still use Beetracker.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:54:00 -
[654]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Can we get this into something definitive as a final policy.
This is no more a condemnation of BACON than the earlier statements were an approval.
Can you please estabilsh a definitive policy on this matter?
Until you make whatever changes you will be making, are tools that read realtime data from the LogServer allowed or disallowed?
I don't care one way or the other what you decide, but please set the record strait once and for all. Ultimately this needs to have a yes or no answer: is it tolerated?
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:06:00 -
[655]
Joy and an expected reaction from CCP.
Though Reuser have a point.
This incident is not the first of its kind in EVE and it will not be the last as long as some people thinks that "hardcore gaming" means taking any advantage possible, metagame and borderline cheat as much as possible to get the edge (cheating is also fine as long as you do not get caught).
Are cyno-nets still around? |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:06:00 -
[656]
Originally by: Ki Anna Until you make whatever changes you will be making, are tools that read realtime data from the LogServer allowed or disallowed?
Quote: While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:08:00 -
[657]
Looks like BACON got sizzled good |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:10:00 -
[658]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
[MichaelIronside] 'bout god dam time [/MichaelIronside] |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:12:00 -
[659]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
<3 |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:15:00 -
[660]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Joy and an expected reaction from CCP.
Though Reuser have a point.
This incident is not the first of its kind in EVE and it will not be the last as long as some people thinks that "hardcore gaming" means taking any advantage possible, metagame and borderline cheat as much as possible to get the edge (cheating is also fine as long as you do not get caught).
Are cyno-nets still around?
I wouldn't call using such tools cheating.For me cheating is using a tool or a method which violates the EULA and the ToS. After the latest CCP statement, my problem is that people have been using this type of tool in secret and CCP and the community did nothing.However as soon as BACON was released and began providing players with similar features as the tools privately used, a part of the community wakes up and starts harassing BACON and its users and CCP begins to do something. Sorry,but to me, it is a double standard and it is not fair to either party.Either people complain from the very beginning(whether the tools are private or public) and CCP reacts from the very beginning or there is no complaining at all People can't have it both ways |
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