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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Wei Tago
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:20:00 -
[661]
Edited by: Wei Tago on 22/04/2008 19:21:00
Originally by: Ki Anna
Can you please estabilsh a definitive policy on this matter?
If they can't detect it, they can't punish it.
Definitive enough for you?
You know, there actually is one MMO game out there with technology advanced enough to seek out and report third-party apps like this that operate outside the game proper.
So, if that's a requirement to make your gaming experience tolerable, then, by all means, go play WoW. |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:26:00 -
[662]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Halle-*******-llujah
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:29:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Wei Tago Edited by: Wei Tago on 22/04/2008 19:21:00
Originally by: Ki Anna
Can you please estabilsh a definitive policy on this matter?
If they can't detect it, they can't punish it.
Definitive enough for you?
You know, there actually is one MMO game out there with technology advanced enough to seek out and report third-party apps like this that operate outside the game proper.
So, if that's a requirement to make your gaming experience tolerable, then, by all means, go play WoW.
Just because they can't punish does not mean that they can't disallow. If CPP thinks BACON is against the 'spirit of the game' then they should disallow it 'in the spirit of the game'. Then people using it would be cheaters for real rather then just falsely accused by ignorant people.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:29:00 -
[664]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Excellent, full marks to CCP for addressing this situation.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:30:00 -
[665]
Originally by: Cori4n
Quote: While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS
amidoinitrite? -- My Sig got pwnt by Cortes :( |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:32:00 -
[666]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 22/04/2008 19:33:53
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Joy and an expected reaction from CCP.
Though Reuser have a point.
This incident is not the first of its kind in EVE and it will not be the last as long as some people thinks that "hardcore gaming" means taking any advantage possible, metagame and borderline cheat as much as possible to get the edge (cheating is also fine as long as you do not get caught).
Are cyno-nets still around?
I wouldn't call using such tools cheating.For me cheating is using a tool or a method which violates the EULA and the ToS. After the latest CCP statement, my problem is that people have been using this type of tool in secret and CCP and the community did nothing.However as soon as BACON was released and began providing players with similar features as the tools privately used, a part of the community wakes up and starts harassing BACON and its users and CCP begins to do something. Sorry,but to me, it is a double standard and it is not fair to either party.Either people complain from the very beginning(whether the tools are private or public) and CCP reacts from the very beginning or there is no complaining at all People can't have it both ways
I don't know why you act surprised. This is how a lot of things in life work, from politics, to activism, to the 6:00 news, and game forums are an extreme example of it.
I mean, hell, the whole point of a public release on the official forums is to get a lot of attention, isn't it?
Speaking for myself, I didn't -know- applications like this existed, or that they didn't violate the TOS. I've heard people -say- they existed, primarily in association with macros and farmers, which has been an eternal battle for the game.
BACON brought the scope and nature of the logserver problem to light for me, and it seems like CCP is going through a similar process. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:37:00 -
[667]
Except that CCP knew already about it and did nothing.Same goes for those who are now complaining about the BACON EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Eronysis
Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:42:00 -
[668]
Edited by: Eronysis on 22/04/2008 19:45:25
Quote: While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS
uwerdoinitwrong! Fixed that for ya! |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:49:00 -
[669]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Except that CCP knew already about it and did nothing.Same goes for those who are now complaining about the BACON
WTF, didn't I just write a long post addressing wh...Oh that's right, I'm posting on Eve-O. Silly me. |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:52:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas Just because they can't punish does not mean that they can't disallow. If CPP thinks BACON is against the 'spirit of the game' then they should disallow it 'in the spirit of the game'. Then people using it would be cheaters for real rather then just falsely accused by ignorant people.
Exactly.
So far what CCP has said on the matter can be heard to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is fine in green. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is not in red.
Mean while, most of this thread is just the continued ramblings of people voicing what they think they read into these statements.
I suppose that actions speak louder than words, therefore the fact that this thread is still open and still has links to the application in question, while also containing an acknowledgement from a Lead GM, constitutes explisite consent from CCP that we are allowed to use this application until further notice, no matter what moral objections players might have to it.
I would have much rather CCP had made a more direct statement to the effect: you can use this type of application, but expect us to nerf it soon. |
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:55:00 -
[671]
just wow ...
I have to thank Gunfleet to take this to public. I suspected things like these existed (I am planning to create something similar for market analysis), however some CCP responses make me very uneasy.
It seems CCP is growing a record of scandals with preferential treatment of certain groups of players and security by obscurity politics.
Now the logserver is there to help debuging the client. This means it should not contain (and does not need to contain) any client side data other than function calls, their return codes, data referencing/dereferencing and such.
Also if the machonet cache thingy is true, it's the same problem. You are caching transitional data vital to the game play. It's like swapping out a password into a plain unencrypted password file for everybody to read. |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:58:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas No. The strongest reaction they can give is to forbid its use. 'Frowning' upon it is meaningless.
Calling people cheaters for doing something that CCP stated is not in violation of the EULA is bending the truth.
What is the point of 'forbidding' us from using this software if there is no way they can enforce the ban? Frowning upon this is the strongest reaction they can feasably give and still retain a modicum of respect from the community as the cheaters will still use the software, forbidden or not.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:59:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Ki Anna
Originally by: Torik Tavitas Just because they can't punish does not mean that they can't disallow. If CPP thinks BACON is against the 'spirit of the game' then they should disallow it 'in the spirit of the game'. Then people using it would be cheaters for real rather then just falsely accused by ignorant people.
Exactly.
So far what CCP has said on the matter can be heard to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is fine in green. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is not in red.
Mean while, most of this thread is just the continued ramblings of people voicing what they think they read into these statements.
I suppose that actions speak louder than words, therefore the fact that this thread is still open and still has links to the application in question, while also containing an acknowledgement from a Lead GM, constitutes explisite consent from CCP that we are allowed to use this application until further notice, no matter what moral objections players might have to it.
I would have much rather CCP had made a more direct statement to the effect: you can use this type of application, but expect us to nerf it soon.
Which is exactly what I have been trying to say.Until further notice from CCP, the tool is legal and there is no point in complaining about a legal tool. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:02:00 -
[674]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 22/04/2008 20:03:59
Originally by: Ki Anna
I would have much rather CCP had made a more direct statement to the effect: you can use this type of application, but expect us to nerf it soon.
It seems pretty clear to me. I really wouldn't expect anything clearer than Grimmi's post until/unless they come up with a mechanical solution for enforcing any new rules.
They could do it just on principle, and hoping to keep the programs from proliferating. But I think it would do as much harm as good to say "We better not catch you using this!" when it's currently undetectable and unenforcable. All that means is people who respect CCP's opinion on it will be at a disadvantage to people who don't.
edit: Looks like we may be saying close to the same thing, actually. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:03:00 -
[675]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Now the logserver is there to help debuging the client. This means it should not contain (and does not need to contain) any client side data other than function calls, their return codes, data referencing/dereferencing and such.
Problems is, that is the exact sort of information these tools are designed to process. The machonet cache contains similar sorts of data but for the purpose of boosting performance instead of debugging.
If CCP wanted to bar these types of tools, they need only establish it as their policy that the uses of LogServer data for anything other than debugging is an exploit. They could then ramp up the tools needed to enforce that policy. Those violating would be delt with accordingly.
CCP just needs to get out of the habit of making wishy-washy statements: form a policy and state it boldly.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:06:00 -
[676]
Ki Anna, for someone who accuses others of lacking reading comprehension, you need to be educated yourself on the differences between 'explicit' and 'implicit'. The only thing CCP did was imply you won't be banned for using it while they investigate. They did not explicitly state you can use it, especially given how they 'frown upon' its use.
Given CCP's history with similar matters, the only reason they don't declare it an exploit and ban everyone who uses it is because they have no way of telling who uses it and enforcing the rules. They would rather let you cheat while they find solutions than prove themselves flaccid and powerless.
Nonetheless, you cheaters have lost. Go cry about it. :3 _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/ |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:09:00 -
[677]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Ki Anna, for someone who accuses others of lacking reading comprehension, you need to be educated yourself on the differences between 'explicit' and 'implicit'. The only thing CCP did was imply you won't be banned for using it while they investigate. They did not explicitly state you can use it, especially given how they 'frown upon' its use.
Given CCP's history with similar matters, the only reason they don't declare it an exploit and ban everyone who uses it is because they have no way of telling who uses it and enforcing the rules. They would rather let you cheat while they find solutions than prove themselves flaccid and powerless.
Nonetheless, you cheaters have lost. Go cry about it. :3
Again,I wouldn't call this cheating because as of now it doesn't break the EULA or the ToS.If and when CCP makes a clear decision that this and other tools are not legal and inform the community,then that it is cheating. |
Plaetean
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:17:00 -
[678]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
I ♥ GM Grimmi
Thank you for returning my faith in CCP
This!
-----
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Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:18:00 -
[679]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Ki Anna, for someone who accuses others of lacking reading comprehension, you need to be educated yourself on the differences between 'explicit' and 'implicit'. The only thing CCP did was imply you won't be banned for using it while they investigate. They did not explicitly state you can use it, especially given how they 'frown upon' its use.
They were 'explicit' in their approval: read the quotes highlighted in green. Originally by: DigitalCommunist Given CCP's history with similar matters, the only reason they don't declare it an exploit and ban everyone who uses it is because they have no way of telling who uses it and enforcing the rules. They would rather let you cheat while they find solutions than prove themselves flaccid and powerless.
It is that policy that I am critising. Originally by: DigitalCommunist Nonetheless, you cheaters we players have lost. Go cry about it. :3
I have no intentions of using this application, nor do I care what CCP's final policy is on this application.
What I do care about is CCP's clear and consistant statement of their policies. All of use players lose when CCP doesn't say what they mean or do what they say.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:29:00 -
[680]
Stop being stupid in my presence, you're insulting humanity.
The EULA/TS are a series of enforcement guidelines and nothing more. They're not there to describe, in detail, every possible situation. They're not taking any action because they can't prove you're using this tool, not because they don't want to, or because the EULA says not to. Otherwise, why would they be frowning upon this tool?
Oh yeah, cause you just modified gampelay with a completely new mechanic. Damn cheaters. I would punish you in the name of the Moon, if it didn't involve stepping off my gloriously high horse. |
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The TX
Gallente Earth Inc. Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:36:00 -
[681]
I'll take a bacon sandwich please.
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Disteeler
Segunda Fundacion T e r c i o s
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:39:00 -
[682]
\o/
Sig by Black Necris |
Zirator
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:42:00 -
[683]
There are two things that disgust me in this topic:
a: The OP claiming that he ( or his corporation ) is proud to publish this tool.
b: The people that fail to understand that the only reason that CCP isn't stating that this tool is forbidden is because they can't police it.
People claim that this tool is used by various groups in EVE. I personally have seen a couple of alliances and in none of these I have witnissed someone speaking about using such a tool or reading something about it on the internal alliance forum.
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Sekhen
Caldari Majestic-5
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:42:00 -
[684]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
*Bra bla bla*
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Translated: If you want to play a game that has lots of "mods" that help you in your gameplay, one of our competitors (Blizzard/Vivendi) offer exactly that product (Worlf of Warcraft).
Here we play the game as it is and on equal terms. ------------------------------------------------ Stating personal opinions as facts is stupid. But thats just my opinion.
1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 45,255 skillPoints. |
Enraged Stoat
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:47:00 -
[685]
Edited by: Enraged Stoat on 22/04/2008 20:47:46 If the logs were originally intended as a debug aid then the quick fix is to disable it if the client connects to the live server. You do have a test server to test on, right?
As to the local yes/no question. Local system, constellation or region, whatever, as long as (a) everyone shows up on it, and (b) it can be told to filter by standings then I for one would be happy.
No, being able to enter a system/const/region totally undetected is NOT acceptable. Under ANY circumstance. If we have the technology to build spaceships the size of cities, then we also have the technology to monitor a giant structure like a stargate and tell when it's activated and whether whoever activated it is friendly (or not)?
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Endeva
Caldari Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:48:00 -
[686]
Edited by: Endeva on 22/04/2008 20:49:12
funny to see bruce and hydra defending this:) someone would say your allainces are full of isk farmers:)
normal person that likes eve and play game for fun would never use things like this
edit: maybe ccp can make exception and give you guys cheat for money so you can play eve on easier mode
Eve needs changes asap |
Nemtar Nataal
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.22 20:54:00 -
[687]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
My Hero Sorry guys but if you are to lasy to pay attention to local chat, you deserve to loos your ship. This is not AFK-Online. Game was not ment to be easy, it was ment to be fun...
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Lurana Lay
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Posted - 2008.04.22 21:04:00 -
[688]
Quote: and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer
Why just now?
This sort and other similar things has been around a while, and not just the Goons either.
Why? Because the general public knows about it and now has some access, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE?! |
Uberapan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.22 21:07:00 -
[689]
Edited by: Uberapan on 22/04/2008 21:06:51 Thanks, CCP!
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KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.22 21:27:00 -
[690]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
And while you are at it can you please, for the love of God, get rid of local also? Thanks. |
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