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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
F90OEX
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:25:00 -
[121]
Where there's smoke, there's fire ... I'm sure there is more to this program, then made public.
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Calvinus Maximus
Black Sheeps Solidus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:25:00 -
[122]
CCP PLEASE STOP THIS!!
As written above by other ppl I think this is unfair to people who really play EVE!
STAND to your rules and donŠt allow this! |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:28:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Koala Bare
Originally by: Gabriel Karade If this get's allowed and no, it does not yet have CCP approval, it sets a dangerous precedent
I'm afraid you are wrong. CCP verdict has been quite clear already. They see nothing against the EULA, and are taking no action against this. All they do is the normal reservation that they can always change their mind. Look up the thread in the Technology section.
Let me again, quote the last developer response to this:
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
There is no EULA violation, but there is also no CCP approval of it. I'm sure we shall hear more from someone more senior soon...
And that is the gist of how this always goes. The verdict is clear, no EULA violation, it is ok. As any normal company reserves the right to change their mind should they find that it does go against the EULA. Until such a time, it's fine. Grimmi stating his belief that "it is ok" and reserving (as usual) the right for CCP to review is an approval until such a time that CCP do change their mind. He even points out how to provide information to demonstrate that the tool does go against the EULA.
Considering some comments and feature removal on the BACON site I get the impression though that there have been more communications then that thread in the Technology section. Look at the edit on the website of the "important features" section. I'd love some more information on any such comms for the sake of an open discussion.
Either way they will need to put this case on a small pile, as there is a good number of other tools around which use the logs the client generates and/or the logs the logserver generates. Outside of the EULA CCP have simply no policy for logs (let's not go into the trouble of enforcing any log file specific policy on the client side, can of worms). There are market tools, private and (semi) public which make use of the logserver, there are market tools which make use of game logs. Is there a difference between the two types? Dunno tbh.
But it's yet another case where an arbitrary decision can't be made on the use of generated logs, only - if it would come to it - to this particular tool in question.
Regardless of my dislike for BACON on a private level, I still commend the authors for deciding to get in touch with CCP and take it from there. Nobody else has done that. Granted it has opened a major discussion, but up until this point nobody gave a damn, as not many folks outside of deep space alliances knew these things existed.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:28:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Calvinus Maximus CCP PLEASE STOP THIS!!
As written above by other ppl I think this is unfair to people who really play EVE!
STAND to your rules and donŠt allow this!
Anyone who uses this program would be a player too you know. Even Macro miners in a way play EvE. (Though I hate the fact that they exploit the economy like they do. :s ) -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:30:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Koala Bare
I was kinda hoping there actually would be a tangible relation between the impact of this tool and the concept of cheating / macro / farming and all that, that way it could be posed as an argument. Trouble is, those "tools" are way more advanced then this.
Not at all, they are actually completely un-advanced and basic in nature. Since they run separately from the client and only refresh on client log files they are pretty easy to do. NOW: ask yourself, what's a good alternative? Having these logs stored server side? Enjoy your lagfest. I'm not going to pull a 'as a developer myself blah blah blah' card and talk out my butt as so many already do, but I can assure you there is no real technology here and I'm more suprised people haven't taken it to borderline EULA-infringing methods yet in other areas.
This is the tip of the iceberg.
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Dr Totenkopf
Caldari Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:44:00 -
[126]
lol! the whine in this thread is great!
Guys, I will now quote a very popular phrase in this forum: "Adapt or die"
All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:49:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf lol! the whine in this thread is great!
Guys, I will now quote a very popular phrase in this forum: "Adapt or die"
All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
You're one to talk. *looks at your corp ticker*
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N'irrti
Amarr Reach Fuileach
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:49:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
so disturbing supply lines by ganking ratters and making life tough for an alliance is not pvp?
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:50:00 -
[129]
Since you may be a "noob" to the merc profession Dr., take my advice on the subject. It's bad for our buisness.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:51:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde on 20/04/2008 12:50:53
Originally by: N'irrti
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
so disturbing supply lines by ganking ratters and making life tough for an alliance is not pvp?
This guy.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:52:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
CCP decides who the cheaters are. Either everyone is, or no-one is.
I doubt that the current state of affairs is likely to change in the near future, for several reasons:
1. Tentative developer/GM approval 2. The logserver is an essential testing tool. All of its capabilities are (probably) there for a good reason and removing them would be harmful. 3. This only affects about 10% of the player base. The vast, silent majority of players all stick almost exclusively to high-sec (and don't take part in wars). 4. As long as these tools don't directly interact with the client, it's very hard for CCP to tell who's using them. 5. Making the necessary changes to stop people doing this sort of thing would probably require considerable developer time. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:59:00 -
[132]
Only affects 10% of the player base? You're kidding I hope...
0.0/lowsec users, anyone in any player corp (as all player corps are at risk for war), miners and industrialists as mineral prices and ship demand drop.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:01:00 -
[133]
Alright,
just some thinking. BACON focuses on alerting players by means of audio on bad people arriving in their local. By many people this is perceived as unfair advance warning.
Thing is, it isn't advance warning. The only difference is the audio alert.
When roaming for ganks, the people who end up first on the target list are those who are 1) afk, 2) deaf because of the wife screaming and responding too slow, 3) idiots sitting with a rorqual in a belt, 4) folks yapping on TS while idling between cycle times in a belt. Anything after that comes down to folks responding to a gank incursion.
People who are afk can try and run back to their PC if they hear a crazy alarm, but by that time they're scrambled anyway. Good scanning is pretty fast and solid, and regardless of that most folks who are fond of farming particular targets make the effort of putting an alt or two in the target alliance or corp, so that they know what is going on real time.
People who are deaf because of the wife, die either way as the wife is probably secretly in Triumvirate having fun killing the hubbie.
Idiots parking big ships in a belt are subject to evolution anyhow, and by the time it is responding you'll be on it, if you're as good as you want to be. If you've got an alt in the target group you'll already know where to go anyway. Even then some nitwit going silly "omg my billion isk rorqual I am trying to warp" is always a good recipee for getting the targets to come out and play. The real definition of farming :P
Folks yapping on TS while relying on something like BACON will after a while shrug off alerts as they hear them too often and after someone asks for the millionth time "who's alert was that between person X and Y yapping" any fast respons possibility is out of the window. Human nature.
Any organisation who structurally depends on a tool like BACON for their livelyhood is dead anyway, because the only real alternative for them is to log off straight up, and I am really curious how long a piece of claimed space lasts if the defenders all log off. Kick em out, replace em with others. It's the way EVE goes round.
The only solid impact I can see is in structural use of such a tool for alerting inbound traffic. Scouts parked around. The difference between how people do that now, and with a tool like BACON is the audio alert. A scout may be having a bio, and miss a gank squad, now he hears sirenes while taking a dump. An organisation which uses alt scouts and a tool like BACON can achieve a solid intel network on traffic and alerting. With some compensation for the human factor of this being a game .. regardless of whether used offensively or defensively, you still need the human to be active, to communicate, and to watch. Again the difference lies in the audio alert.
PVP isn't meant to be about having a perfect easy recipee for ganks. It takes effort, skills, experience, gut and brains. No external tool will saveguard an organisation from conflict. If they try to shrug away from conflict by logging off, they'll have a pretty dead organisation without space soon enough anyway.
Macro farmers rely on totally different "tools". And I do think we have to be honest, with so many people having alts and multiple accounts around, it is far easier (hopefully CCP does something soon) for people to have fun on one account / pc and have a ratting alt running with a bot on another account. I googled into another surprise in this regard, an EVE Bot which does exactly that. Considering how widespread that particular one is, this tool isn't going to have any impact or bearing on that. We can only hope CCP infiltrates such cheater sites and "tools" and goes straight to war with em. After all the googling and nasty surprises I have no more objections to daily patches messing up such tools tbfh >.<
BACON won't stop anyone from farming HYDRA tbh.
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Kale Kold
Caldari Vicious Little Killers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:01:00 -
[134]
BACON! A pirate's best friend!!! Mwhahahah!
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Virtuozzo
IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:12:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Virtuozzo on 20/04/2008 13:11:58 I wonder how long it'll be until we see people customising those audio alerts with excerpts like "I am bringing out the sniper dread" or "I am coming in hot" :P
It had to be Hydra >.<
CAOD FTW.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:18:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
Yes because CCP saying it's not allowed will really stop alot of people from using it.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:24:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf lol! the whine in this thread is great!
Guys, I will now quote a very popular phrase in this forum: "Adapt or die"
All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
Says who? You?
Flamebait aside, you'd have to be very short-sighted to miss the can of worms this opens... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:26:00 -
[138]
With a few lines of code, this app could even automatically "CTRL-Q" for the player by terminating the Exefile.EXE process.
What a load a *******s CCP, if you actually are going to allow this and don't close this loop hole. Logserver files are to be encrypted, they're only there for CCP to analyse software failure. Just implement a public/private key encryption on the logfile -> problem solved. -
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:32:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr With a few lines of code, this app could even automatically "CTRL-Q" for the player by terminating the Exefile.EXE process.
What a load a *******s CCP, if you actually are going to allow this and don't close this loop hole. Logserver files are to be encrypted, they're only there for CCP to analyse software failure. Just implement a public/private key encryption on the logfile -> problem solved.
Still googling around, in continuation from a previous post. Having just come across an EVE Bot which uses screen detection on the local list to - depending on configuration - warp & cloak or quit, this tool makes zero difference in that regard.
Encryption could be an option, if CCP would be smart enough to think up a way to to properly implement it. But that changes nothing for the abomination of "lookie bad people, ctrl + Q" syndrome from the looks of it.
Quite frankly, on a private level BACON isn't going to sizzle. But if widespread on an organisational level it can have an impact in regards to (proper) scouting. Then again, if the buggers log off, they're not going to keep space for long anyhow.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:32:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Thorradin on 20/04/2008 13:33:08
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde I'm gonna say what we're all thinking:
"So *THAT'S* how Hydra keeps their space..."
Seriously irresponsible program. CCP gave them the opening but they should have the self respect and dignity to know better. And BACON users should be just ashamed. Probably arnt, but should be.
Shame on X player for using EvE-Mon.
Shame on X player for using EvE Meep.
Same complaints.
Did you just compare a fancy alarm clock like EVE-Mon to a full-blown data mining program that uses the game files as they are not intended to be used?
I guess EFT is just as bad as the eve mining bots then?
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Sir JoJo
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:34:00 -
[141]
why dont it suprise me this **** comes from HYDRA
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Cadela Fria
Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:41:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Cesar Malari
BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements)
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
False advertisement. This program has NOT been approved by CCP.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:43:00 -
[143]
What else can a player monitor through the logserver? ---
Put in space whales!
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:44:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven What else can a player monitor through the logserver?
Question of the year.
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Lancer Maelstorm
Amarr Art of War
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:58:00 -
[145]
Something to think about... Even WoW banned mods *cough*hacks*cough* like this one. It is just unreal how much this would ruin the game... If you are allowed to use logs to find out when someone enters local, and then alert you... Why not just let us create macros that start miners up, and dock up 6 minutes after and then play a track? Wouldn't that make eve so much better!
Anyhow, back to the point... BACON = Fail.
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:59:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
CCP decides who the cheaters are. Either everyone is, or no-one is.
I doubt that the current state of affairs is likely to change in the near future, for several reasons:
1. Tentative developer/GM approval 2. The logserver is an essential testing tool. All of its capabilities are (probably) there for a good reason and removing them would be harmful. 3. This only affects about 10% of the player base. The vast, silent majority of players all stick almost exclusively to high-sec (and don't take part in wars). 4. As long as these tools don't directly interact with the client, it's very hard for CCP to tell who's using them. 5. Making the necessary changes to stop people doing this sort of thing would probably require considerable developer time.
I think Kazuo hit the nail on the head here. Regardless of how this does or does not break game mechanics, there isn't anything practical that CCP can do about it without modifying the logServer. Since it doesn't interact directly with the EvE client, they have no control over it. It doesn't send anything to the server so they can't monitor for network traffic. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Zoe Sedai
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:13:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Regardless of how this does or does not break game mechanics, there isn't anything practical that CCP can do about it without modifying the logServer. Since it doesn't interact directly with the EvE client, they have no control over it. It doesn't send anything to the server so they can't monitor for network traffic.
Encrypting the logserver data would take all of 5 minutes, so your argument doesn't hold water.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:14:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Koala Bare on 20/04/2008 14:15:40
Originally by: Cadela Fria
Originally by: Cesar Malari
BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements)
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
False advertisement. This program has NOT been approved by CCP.
Please let's try and stay constructive, as opposed to just quoting in and out arbitrarily based solely on private opinions (though tbh we're in agreement on the concept). This is yet another major milestone for EVE, and should be handled with care by everyone for that reason.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
It's only a few posts further in that thread.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:37:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde Only affects 10% of the player base? You're kidding I hope...
0.0/lowsec users, anyone in any player corp (as all player corps are at risk for war), miners and industrialists as mineral prices and ship demand drop.
First, wars are the exception, not the norm. A large proportion of empire-based corps never attract or start any wars, as they don't have any worthwhile targets.
I've travelled quite extensively in low sec, and most of it is completely deserted. This is consistent with the data published in the QEN-Q4 from last year. I admit I may have been a bit out with the 10% figure, but the pilots affected are certainly in the minority, however vocal they may be. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:42:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde Only affects 10% of the player base? You're kidding I hope...
0.0/lowsec users, anyone in any player corp (as all player corps are at risk for war), miners and industrialists as mineral prices and ship demand drop.
First, wars are the exception, not the norm. A large proportion of empire-based corps never attract or start any wars, as they don't have any worthwhile targets.
I've travelled quite extensively in low sec, and most of it is completely deserted. This is consistent with the data published in the QEN-Q4 from last year. I admit I may have been a bit out with the 10% figure, but the pilots affected are certainly in the minority, however vocal they may be.
You do realize 10% of the playerbase just covers (some of) the southern Bob/Goon war, right?
Lots of empire corps have wars, this tool would easily affect half of the playerbase, if not more.
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