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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Cesar Malari
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:04:00 -
[1]
Note: this is a re-release of BACON. The new version is 1.0.0.2. This version has had the reporting features removed to comply with CCP's request.
Gunfleet Logistics is proud to announce a product we've wanted to share with EVE for as long as we've been developing it: BACON.
BACON is a software tool that works with CCP's log server to collect real time data about entries and exits in a system that you are in. It then compares that data to a standings file, and sounds different tones/sounds depending on the status of each entry. For instance, if a war target enters the system, you hear a muted pistol shot. If an unknown enters, BACON sounds a click. Friendly and known entries are low tones. You also hear different tones when people leave the system. The sounds are completely configurable by the user, and can be imported and exported.
BACON's performance is, quite simply, real time. You can rely on BACON to let you know when someone enters the system you are in. If you happen to be in a different conversation window than Local, you still are alerted to system entries. If you happen to be quickly checking a forum, or momentarily distracted from EVE v BACON will save your ship.
Previous versions of BACON (< 1.0.0.1) had the capability to log data to a remote server controled by Gunfleet. At CCP's request, this functionality has been removed from 1.0.0.2.
BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements) In addition, we're releasing the code under the GPL license for immediate community use and review. Gunfleet Logistics believes that it is important that everything be as open, transparent, and safe as possible.
For more information, please visit the installation pages at: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/
To get full use out of BACON, you'll need to create a standings file. Here's instructions for doing that.
Thanks,
Gunfleet Logistics Cesar Malari, Mad Scientist. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:04:00 -
[2]
YESSS!!!! Need more BACON!!!!!!!!!!!
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:04:00 -
[3]
I do believe I was trolling here before we were so rudely interrupted. _____________________________________________________________________________
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:05:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 08:06:25 This tool has no practical application whatsoever other than to allow you to not pay attention to the game in which you are playing.
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:06:00 -
[5]
Request: Mitnal please just nuke the links and let us have our fun. The Trit Must Flow! |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:08:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 20/04/2008 08:08:56 PWNED! Bacon: 1 Pigs in a Blanket: 0
edit: no fair, saur ***** is not a bad word
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Lord Lycos
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:09:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lord Lycos on 20/04/2008 08:09:12 What was removed?
NM: Re-read.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:13:00 -
[8]
So... d/l this if you fail at realizing everyone is a threat?
Alt scouts are bad enough, but cloaked alt scouts alerting you from several systems out that Reds are on the move without even having to check the screen?
Tell me that nobody else has realized the potential for that... ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:14:00 -
[9]
muahaha all the threads gloating that the original got nuked have been.... nuked
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:14:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 08:15:43 Posting my opinion:
Even though BACON (the new real-time intel-gathering 3rd party app from a Hydra Alliance corp) is not a violation of the EULA, it breaks the spirit of the game.
There are reasons that safeties have been put in place to prevent this sort of thing. The fact these guys have found a workaround to a system set in place to prevent people from doing this sort of thing frustrates me. Not because I didn't do it, but because it is available to players.
First let me say this: I have local open 23/7. Everyone has access to it and I choose to leave it open. That is personal choice. If I downloaded this program and (this is a stretch here) I was mining in a lowsec belt with eve minimized (lol), I could be alerted to gtfo without even paying attention.
But the root of the issue still stands. It takes away from the fact that EVE is a game where you need to focus and be attentive to play. If we allow this sort of thing to come into regular play what will be next? Some sort of combat tool to calculate the enemies' dps and say "you are going to explode in X number of seconds at this rate" or some other hogwash?
CCP this needs to be stopped right now before more plans move further to develop more around this client/user loophole. Even though the data is accessed locally and does not involve the client, it reports realtime information that the client is delivering to you anyway. That's where the spirit of the game is broken and needs to be fixed.
Finally, they have really touted themselves as being the saviors of not-paying-attention gameplay:
Originally by: Cesar Malari BACON's performance is, quite simply, real time. You can rely on BACON to let you know when someone enters the system you are in. If you happen to be in a different conversation window than Local, you still are alerted to system entries. If you happen to be quickly checking a forum, or momentarily distracted from EVE û BACON will save your ship.
AKA "I don't have to actually be paying attention to EVE, my ship will be safe!"
CCP, you yourselves have said hundreds of times that you want EVE to be an "at-keyboard experience." By allowing this sort of software (not this software per se, but this SORT of software) you are reneging your statements to your clients and consumers who put faith in you to keep this stuff out of the game.
Come on CCP. Keep yourselves in check.
Thanks.
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Le Mare
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:16:00 -
[11]
One word - ghey.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:16:00 -
[12]
I'd say we need a proper CCP investigation of this, to see weather or not this runs on the macro list. Automated software for notifying a pilot of in-game events... automated software for clicking a button every minute...
tbh I'm not that happy with the "feature" this software adds. But have yet to see a proper CCP statement after doing a more deep check.
Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar? |
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Talarn Kalarn
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 08:15:43 Posting my opinion:
Even though BACON (the new real-time intel-gathering 3rd party app from a Hydra Alliance corp) is not a violation of the EULA, it breaks the spirit of the game.
There are reasons that safeties have been put in place to prevent this sort of thing. The fact these guys have found a workaround to a system set in place to prevent people from doing this sort of thing frustrates me. Not because I didn't do it, but because it is available to players.
First let me say this: I have local open 23/7. Everyone has access to it and I choose to leave it open. That is personal choice. If I downloaded this program and (this is a stretch here) I was mining in a lowsec belt with eve minimized (lol), I could be alerted to gtfo without even paying attention.
But the root of the issue still stands. It takes away from the fact that EVE is a game where you need to focus and be attentive to play. If we allow this sort of thing to come into regular play what will be next? Some sort of combat tool to calculate the enemies' dps and say "you are going to explode in X number of seconds at this rate" or some other hogwash?
CCP this needs to be stopped right now before more plans move further to develop more around this client/user loophole. Even though the data is accessed locally and does not involve the client, it reports realtime information that the client is delivering to you anyway. That's where the spirit of the game is broken and needs to be fixed.
Finally, they have really touted themselves as being the saviors of not-paying-attention gameplay:
Originally by: Cesar Malari BACON's performance is, quite simply, real time. You can rely on BACON to let you know when someone enters the system you are in. If you happen to be in a different conversation window than Local, you still are alerted to system entries. If you happen to be quickly checking a forum, or momentarily distracted from EVE û BACON will save your ship.
AKA "I don't have to actually be paying attention to EVE, my ship will be safe!"
CCP, you yourselves have said hundreds of times that you want EVE to be an "at-keyboard experience." By allowing this sort of software (not this software per se, but this SORT of software) you are reneging your statements to your clients and consumers who put faith in you to keep this stuff out of the game.
Come on CCP. Keep yourselves in check.
Thanks.
I wonder if the irony of using a copy and paste function for your post has hit yet.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: techzer0 Alt scouts are bad enough, but cloaked alt scouts alerting you from several systems out that Reds are on the move without even having to check the screen?
The specific functionality that allowed for remote or group reporting from systems away was removed. I think it is a good choice to have done so. As to what is left, again there is going to be very vocal opponents and very quiet supporters. (No one screams and shout about something the speak good of... ) Imho, if it doesn't break the rules... who gives a f---. There is so much else to actually worry about. (I'll just let CCP mull this over without the drama bomb.)
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa it breaks the spirit of the game.
Exactly my thought.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: techzer0 Alt scouts are bad enough, but cloaked alt scouts alerting you from several systems out that Reds are on the move without even having to check the screen?
The specific functionality that allowed for remote or group reporting from systems away was removed. I think it is a good choice to have done so. As to what is left, again there is going to be very vocal opponents and very quiet supporters. (No one screams and shout about something the speak good of... ) Imho, if it doesn't break the rules... who gives a f---. There is so much else to actually worry about. (I'll just let CCP mull this over without the drama bomb.)
Ok... you missed my point.
Open a client other than your main, log in noob alt with standings set. Cloak said noob alt a few systems out.
You get the same results, and running multiple clients isn't hard to do, I run my PVP character and my hauler alt at the same time pretty much every time I'm online, I don't have dual screens, and I don't feel any need to be notified when someone new enters local because I'm actually paying enough attention to keep track of both accounts. ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Talarn Kalarn
I wonder if the irony of using a copy and paste function for your post has hit yet.
Forums /= Eve _____________________________________________________________________________
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:24:00 -
[18]
It's groups of players like Gunfleet that represent everything that is wrong with Eve and the scumbag cheaters that comprise a large number of it's player base.
Tools such as BACON and Goonfleet's similar app, and all other third party metagaming tools designed to automate info gathering from the local channel are despicable.
Because Gunfleet are responsible for even more metagaming, they deserve to be grouped with Goonfleet, RA and every other loser bunch that does everything possible to take advantage of every loophole and cheat they can use to win at any cost.
Gunfleet, you have my utmost contempt.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
LordMordred
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:26:00 -
[19]
Edited by: LordMordred on 20/04/2008 08:28:47 The first thread was nuked it would seem.
So here we go again.
This is simply crap in a can.
There is no way this should ever be made legal by CCP. This will effectly make roaming very hard to catch people off guard. Tactics are ruined enough by local as it is.
On top of all that. THIS IS A MACRO. There is no ands, ifs, or buts about it. It may find a loop-hole in the EULA, it may not.... but it breaks the spirit of the game and this spirit of the EULA
Macro(in the sense we are talking about here): A program that does something automatically. It is third party software that gives an unfair advantage to people who want to play EVE with out paying attention to EVE.
If the first thread was nuked as a result of my reporting the thread... then I hope this one gets the same threatment and an official and timely reply from CCP on this matter be made. -----
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SirMolly
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:27:00 -
[20]
I love this tool. Now i don't need to stare at local all the time anymore and can do some useful things while farming, without being ganked.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Chribba I'd say we need a proper CCP investigation of this, to see weather or not this runs on the macro list. Automated software for notifying a pilot of in-game events... automated software for clicking a button every minute...
tbh I'm not that happy with the "feature" this software adds. But have yet to see a proper CCP statement after doing a more deep check.
Honestly, we tried to emulate your trusted third party-ness with this tool. We've bent over backwards to be transparent, CCP compliant, and open with this tool. We've tried to give EVERYONE access to the same things at the same time, while balancing being able to release a usable product.
Again, open source, GPL, and accountable to CCP. I wish I could do more for you, because quite honestly, I think you and we are on the right path.
This is my PERSONAL opinion, not a statement of Gunfleet policy. I think you will find that most of us agree with this post, however.
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Talarn Kalarn
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's groups of players like Gunfleet that represent everything that is wrong with Eve and the scumbag cheaters that comprise a large number of it's player base.
Tools such as BACON and Goonfleet's similar app, and all other third party metagaming tools designed to automate info gathering from the local channel are despicable.
Because Gunfleet are responsible for even more metagaming, they deserve to be grouped with Goonfleet, RA and every other loser bunch that does everything possible to take advantage of every loophole and cheat they can use to win at any cost.
Gunfleet, you have my utmost contempt.
*holds up mirror
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:32:00 -
[23]
I actually have another incredibly valid point here:
Okay check it. About 2 hours ago, one of my Mackinaw pilots was in lowsec mining in a belt. I was docked in station in the same system.
Some guy with 5.1 sec was in the system (he was neutral) and about 4 blues were in local with us.
The mackinaw pilot had a drake alt defending.
Anyway I say "hey there's a neutral in local, you need to be on high alert" and he said "nah 5.1 sec, I'm ok."
I swear to God, 20 seconds later he's being blown up by a pilgrim.
If he would have heard a sound I would bet you MONEY he would have docked. People are programmable in the fact that if you are conditioned by a sound you will respond a certain way. For example, hearing "Your security status has been lowered" creates a sense of euphoria, and "you are unable to warp because you are warp scrambled" creates a sense of anxiety.
Adding a beep will cause people to act before they think. That is not where I want this game to go.
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Disteeler
Segunda Fundacion T e r c i o s
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:40:00 -
[24]
This kind of lame crap 3rd party software break MMOs always.
Sig by Black Necris |
Intigo
Amarr Art of War
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:45:00 -
[25]
This is frickin' bull. I hope CCP does something about this because this is just plain pathetic. -- A-War, much love. <3 |
Koro Kar'Amarr
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:46:00 -
[26]
Remove BACON Remove Local
Constellation is local enough.
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Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Reuser Honestly, we tried to emulate your trusted third party-ness with this tool.
No, no you ******* didn't. chribba provides free, useful services that better the game. You're trying to throw it down the ****ter.
So, how about, you **** off and stop trying to spew your filth all over mah game?
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Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:49:00 -
[28]
CCP Please change logging as this is a farmers dream come true. Either remove logging from showing people entering or leaving systems or delay it by a set time period.
This program destroys the spirit of the game completly. I mean have a cloaked alt sitting in the entrance to a dead end system and you don't even need to look to be alerted to someone next door.
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:50:00 -
[29]
Edited by: DroneBay Diva on 20/04/2008 08:52:19
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Chribba I'd say we need a proper CCP investigation of this, to see weather or not this runs on the macro list. Automated software for notifying a pilot of in-game events... automated software for clicking a button every minute...
tbh I'm not that happy with the "feature" this software adds. But have yet to see a proper CCP statement after doing a more deep check.
Honestly, we tried to emulate your trusted third party-ness with this tool. We've bent over backwards to be transparent, CCP compliant, and open with this tool. We've tried to give EVERYONE access to the same things at the same time, while balancing being able to release a usable product.
Again, open source, GPL, and accountable to CCP. I wish I could do more for you, because quite honestly, I think you and we are on the right path.
This is my PERSONAL opinion, not a statement of Gunfleet policy. I think you will find that most of us agree with this post, however.
It's not your openness/willingness to share that is being brought into question here. As a matter of fact, I admire the HOW of what you've done here. Getting CCP's approval (for now), allowing the code to be seen by the public, etc. You have done a good job in that regard.
It's what the product DOES that is being called into question. It is practically automating a part of the game that SHOULD NOT be automated. If people want to do things risk free they should have to pay attention and work for it. They should not have a 3rd party program that goes '*beep* time to ctrl q now'
At any rate, I should've been in bed about 2 hours ago, We'll see what has come of this in the morning.
Edit: On one final note, not having Chribba's approval is hopefully gonna pull some weight somewhere that matters. _____________________________________________________________________________
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Koro Kar'Amarr
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:53:00 -
[30]
Oh, also, EFT is ebil aswell..
All I hear lately is dps this dps that... The min/maxers are here, and they smell faintly of body odour and I can hear the niggling scratchings of their chalked equasions on the blackboard.. how attractive.
Where is the fun people!¼?!?!?!??!??
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Kyra Felann
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:54:00 -
[31]
I support banning this program and closing the source where it gets its info. I won't go into the reasons why, as they've been expressed quite well so far.
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Anub1s
Amarr Return of the Anub1s
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Posted - 2008.04.20 08:58:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Anub1s on 20/04/2008 08:58:40 No, I think that banning isn't a good idea because some group will use it anyway and gets advantage. I doubt that CCP can monitor this program because It doesn't interact with client software.
Simply disable log server system entry alert feature and this program will be useless.
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BurnYaBad
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:01:00 -
[33]
Consider the scource., a basic isk farming alliance.... go figure.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:02:00 -
[34]
Congrats on the programming.
CCP have a (another) giant ostritch sized egg heading their way if they dont deal with this one.
SKUNK
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Anub1s
Amarr Return of the Anub1s
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:04:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Anub1s on 20/04/2008 09:06:11 Imagine what would happen if those macro-ravens start using it, maybe they already do...
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:14:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Talarn Kalarn
Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's groups of players like Gunfleet that represent everything that is wrong with Eve and the scumbag cheaters that comprise a large number of it's player base.
Tools such as BACON and Goonfleet's similar app, and all other third party metagaming tools designed to automate info gathering from the local channel are despicable.
Because Gunfleet are responsible for even more metagaming, they deserve to be grouped with Goonfleet, RA and every other loser bunch that does everything possible to take advantage of every loophole and cheat they can use to win at any cost.
Gunfleet, you have my utmost contempt.
*holds up mirror
I'm assuming you're some kind of ISK farmer to defend what they're doing?
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:15:00 -
[37]
'Approved by CCP' is stretching it...
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
and....
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Now until until I see someone more senior (Oveur) comment on this, I'm not going to believe that CCP is actually going to allow this sort of thing.
In the meantime I'm off to get my pitchfork and torch... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Siddy
Minmatar Paisti Paisti Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:17:00 -
[38]
This tool is no problem, local chat is.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:22:00 -
[39]
I think I'd probably quit over this, if it is allowed to continue. It's tantamount to allowing wallhacks in an FPS.
If garbage 3rd party cheating tools such as BACON are allowed, why stop there? Why not see just how far we can cheat and still be 'within the rules'? This garbage and the people who support it disgust me.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:22:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Siddy This tool is no problem, local chat is.
Don't be a troll. This is not about local. This is about what they say on their website (read this carefully):
Originally by: Bacon Website You become aware of hostiles entering your current system through auditory means without having to keep an eye on local, all in REAL TIME.
CCP did not design their game so you don't have to pay attention. Therefore this is a mod. Mods are not allowed by CCP.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:26:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Chribba I'd say we need a proper CCP investigation of this, to see weather or not this runs on the macro list. Automated software for notifying a pilot of in-game events... automated software for clicking a button every minute...
tbh I'm not that happy with the "feature" this software adds. But have yet to see a proper CCP statement after doing a more deep check.
Honestly, we tried to emulate your trusted third party-ness with this tool. We've bent over backwards to be transparent, CCP compliant, and open with this tool. We've tried to give EVERYONE access to the same things at the same time, while balancing being able to release a usable product.
Again, open source, GPL, and accountable to CCP. I wish I could do more for you, because quite honestly, I think you and we are on the right path.
This is my PERSONAL opinion, not a statement of Gunfleet policy. I think you will find that most of us agree with this post, however.
Of course, I'm not reacting of the presentation of your tool at all, in fact I support most things that bring the community forward. However in this case I don't really see it as a step forward as this application basicly promotes Ctrl+Q in a way, and we all know how happy ppl are of such tactics.
And imo the application kinda uses the logServer in a way that was not intended, logServer was created to dump logs of errors/bugs so CCP can improve the game. BACON simply uses it to grab intel. So imo not really the reason why logServer exists.
But still I'd love to see CCP investigate it throughly and if they find it no problem, then I will of course be ok with that, but I still may not like the "feature". Either way I am glad you tried to launch it in a way that would not upset the entire playerbase right off (even if it maybe didn't succeed to 100%) I thank you for the effort.
/c
Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar? |
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:29:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Chribba And imo the application kinda uses the logServer in a way that was not intended, logServer was created to dump logs of errors/bugs so CCP can improve the game. BACON simply uses it to grab intel. So imo not really the reason why logServer exists.
Chribba just hit the nail on the head in line with what I was saying about "it breaks the spirit of the game." I was never talking about PVP or PVE or whatever, I was talking about taking things out of context and using them for something else.
Log files are not for intel. They are for logging.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:31:00 -
[43]
Drama, whine, counter-whine, repartee flame and troll. Blah, blah, blah. CCP is aware that many consider this a problem and I'm sure you can expect to have something said "official" at some point. After all, CCP has been direct to the Author already so no one is asleep at the wheel and is watching. But this: Originally by: Bellum Eternus I think I'd probably quit over this, if it is allowed to continue.
After all the other crap that's gone by you want to quit over this? Bah, I believe it when I see it... and care as much then as I do now. Whatever determination that is going to be made will be made but unlike all the reactions going on there is no need to over react. No need to be burning people in effigy other than to be asshats. Yeah, yeah, I know... it's Eve what else can someone expect. It's just that there have been so many eloquent and coherent statements against this utility, damn good ones, that just got lost in between the torch carrying peasants.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
spiderppig
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:32:00 -
[44]
This program is made of fail and in my eyes is a down right exploit.
basiclly turns everyone into a ctrl + Q chin farmer but atleast the chin farmers are looking at there screens.
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:33:00 -
[45]
Didn't the goons get a lot of flack for using something like this ?
V8I
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Nova Fox
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:42:00 -
[46]
Wonders if ccp gets aura to do some more voice work and some settings in audio.
"Hostiles detected in system" "Neutrals detected in system"
With toggeled settings 0.0-1.0 0.0-0.5 0.0 only
How to make feel low sec feel like low sec |
MassonA
Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 09:43:00 -
[47]
Well it would be Hydra. Yes I went there.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Drama, whine, counter-whine, repartee flame and troll. Blah, blah, blah. But this: Originally by: Bellum Eternus I think I'd probably quit over this, if it is allowed to continue.
After all the other crap that's gone by you want to quit over this? Bah, I believe it when I see it... and care as much then as I do now.
OK, maybe not. But this kind of thing just annoys me to no end. Just makes me wonder how much further CCP will go to make all the targets, er, carebears, er, farmers, er, cheating paying customers lives easier.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Nova Fox
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:44:00 -
[49]
Wonders if ccp gets aura to do some more voice work and some settings in audio.
"Hostiles detected in system" "Neutrals detected in system"
With toggeled settings 0.0-1.0 0.0-0.5 0.0 only
that way bacon is no longer useful.
How to make feel low sec feel like low sec |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 09:44:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Nova Fox Wonders if ccp gets aura to do some more voice work and some settings in audio.
"Hostiles detected in system" "Neutrals detected in system"
With toggeled settings 0.0-1.0 0.0-0.5 0.0 only
Tis or bacon. I thnik it is find to have bacon. If yuo don't liek it, don't use it or wiat for CCP to give Nova's propopsal. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment -KB- |
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:45:00 -
[51]
I'll do it this way. And I don't want to say it but ugh, this is an amplification of my last week of life.
Recently, EVE has turned into a headache. Log in, do corp maintenance, talk with corp members, herd the corp members to do something, log out. Next day, repeat.
For the past week I have been looking for some variety. I have been trying to find another game to fill my "I don't want to play EVE right now" feelings. And after reading through forum after forum from different MMOs, I realize they're nowhere near the level of excellence that EVE has reached.
Cesar and your corp, please stop syndicating this software. Please. I am asking you because I want the community to not be torn apart by another issue or thing that is causing disparity in the people. If anything, I want the community of EVE to be harmonious and together on most things. Sure we have differing opinions, but this one is a little different.
Rather than being something that CCP did, this is something you did. And as a software/graphic designer myself I applaud you for finding this way to use the software dumps and logs to your advantage. And I also applaud you for bringing it to the community as a whole. However, given the current reception and fact that it has the potential to divide EVE over something that has been seemingly argued over for years, I am asking you to discontinue it.
If this software you have created brings around the demise of local, that makes me sad. I am asking you to not directly interfere with the normal daily operations of the game and let CCP handle it. Please show your responsibility to the players of this game and take it down.
I'm saying this from my heart. I really am. I don't want to yell or flame or troll or get mean. I just don't want this to happen to this game. :(
<3
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:45:00 -
[52]
Originally by: spiderppig This program is made of fail and in my eyes is a down right exploit.
basiclly turns everyone into a ctrl + Q chin farmer but atleast the chin farmers are looking at there screens.
And when they're not looking... ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Damion Zyne
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:49:00 -
[53]
Im sure CCP will realize that programs like this are not in the best interest of the game nor of CCP.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 09:50:00 -
[54]
Hydra Alliance: Making 0.0 safer for ISK farmers since 2008 -----------
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Damion Zyne Im sure CCP will realize that programs like this are not in the best interest of the game nor of CCP.
Problem is, how do you 'legistlate' against it. I mean, the logserver writes to local disk. An app to read this log and 'do stuff with it' is pretty much impossible to detect.
Much like logoffski, it's hard to make it an exploit, because it implies a high degree of control of your system. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Hoshi
Black Water.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 09:53:00 -
[56]
Anyone here have actually tried to run the log server for any extended periods of time? The extra lag and general unresponsiveness it creates more than offsets any positive effects. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:05:00 -
[57]
I'd have to say no to this program as well.
1. Anyone that could benefit from using it, will use it. Because it gives them an edge generally only provided by constant vigilance.
2. But if everyone uses it suddenly a whole lot of strategies become unviable.
Raiding? Might as well stay docked home because you're never going to catch anything (not even the half-asleep ratters that you could generally find and kill to sap your opponents morale and income). Empire wars? Screw that.
Thus the only methods left are those where you either won't show up in local, or where your opponent has to defend static assets (ie, he can't run) Thus, the only tactics that remain are gatecamping and POS sieging. And those are (IMHO) the worst parts of EVE warfare. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:05:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cesar Malari Note: this is a re-release of BACON. The new version is 1.0.0.2. This version has had the reporting features removed to comply with CCP's request.
. . .
Previous versions of BACON (< 1.0.0.1) had the capability to log data to a remote server controled by Gunfleet. At CCP's request, this functionality has been removed from 1.0.0.2.
. . .
we're releasing the code under the GPL license for immediate community use and review. Gunfleet Logistics believes that it is important that everything be as open, transparent, and safe as possible.
The genie is out of the bottle, as the software is now open source (even if it wasn't it wouldn't be hard to reverse engineer) it doesn't matter that remote reporting has been taken off. Expect to see alliance wide hostile reporting apps where just having everyone run this in background will allow complete hostile enitity reporting to be automated across an alliances space. It's not that hard and would be quite lightweight for server and browser requirements as using AJAX you can plot positions in real time.
The logs have to go, simple as that.
Replaceing local with some form of active and passive scanning with IFF for 0.0 would be quite wonderful but probably is the subject for another topic.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:09:00 -
[59]
Holy whining Batman!
You guys really think this program isn't in the hands of those that want to use it already?
Why don't you all direct your forum-energy at the real problem, local, instead of crying that your sense of fairness in EVE ( oh the irony ) has been shattered?
There's no way CCP can check if a player reads his own log-files. You're all doing what you accuse CCP of doing, focusing on the symptom instead of the disease.
Removing BACON won't remove the problem, only hide it. The only way to fix this issue is to nerf local or the log-files.
Geez, biggest waste of whining I've ever seen on here. Nobody in this thread is ever allowed to accuse CCP of not thinking things through before they act, 'cause you're all clearly not able to either.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:12:00 -
[60]
Just a thought- now we've got this open source program that can do this, it makes me wonder how many private, closed source programs are in circulation on the illegal isk-farming circuit that do exactly the same thing in the same way.
In other words, if CCP close up this loop-hole, they might knock-out the capabilities of all sorts of different isk-farming programs...
Do it CCP, do it now! ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:16:00 -
[61]
I love this public release of BACON.
Bumps up the removal of local on the dev timetable
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:18:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Hans Roaming The genie is out of the bottle, as the software is now open source (even if it wasn't it wouldn't be hard to reverse engineer) it doesn't matter that remote reporting has been taken off. Expect to see alliance wide hostile reporting apps where just having everyone run this in background will allow complete hostile enitity reporting to be automated across an alliances space. It's not that hard and would be quite lightweight for server and browser requirements as using AJAX you can plot positions in real time.
Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it. There is even one pvp alliance with a code genius who put together a similar tool for their citizens.
Originally by: Hans Roaming The logs have to go, simple as that.
The logs can't go. It's the logserver. CCP use it, players use it, for a lot more possible purposes then this. For instance testing on Sisi without the logserver is beyond pain.
Quite frankly, the problem strikes me not as this tool being around but it being in the open. After all, until this got out of the bag there were plenty other similar tools going round and in use, exploring other people's forums can not only be entertaining, but also shocking.
Originally by: Hans Roaming
Replaceing local with some form of active and passive scanning with IFF for 0.0 would be quite wonderful but probably is the subject for another topic.
Indeed, and agreed on both points. Perhaps this is a step in that direction, as the concept comes very close to such scanning, but it is realtime, requires no in game skills or modules, and has no countermechanism. I guess we will see what happens, there's been some references to that +ve / -ve list hack from back in the day (which again was only the hack which got public as there were several other in use, sounds familiar now), which got incorporated into EVE itself over time.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:19:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:21:47
Originally by: Pohbis Holy whining Batman!
You guys really think this program isn't in the hands of those that want to use it already?
Why don't you all direct your forum-energy at the real problem, local, instead of crying that your sense of fairness in EVE ( oh the irony ) has been shattered?
NO.
I am not going to succumb to the "local" problem when in fact this has nothing to do with local. It has to do with LOGGING.
I mentioned it earlier and I can mention it now. This sort of stuff can be used to read out damage reports coming in real time and possibly tell you how long you are going to have left based on the reports the logs show.
This has absolutely nothing to do with local and those that bring it up are direct proponents of the motive that this software has brought forth whether it be indirect or hostile.
Originally by: Koala Bare Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it.
Can't you see that it's plain as day? They're using this as a form of forum warfare to get people polarized on an issue to make CCP feel like they have to do something about it! Just like the Goons, too! It is literally clear as crystal what is going on here and I ******* hate it!
*cries* Why are you guys trying to destroy EVE :((((((
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SoftRevolution
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 10:23:00 -
[64]
This tool just reads local?
Do I have that right? EVE RELATED CONTENT |
Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 10:26:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Nicholai Pestot on 20/04/2008 10:26:38
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:21:47
Originally by: Pohbis Holy whining Batman!
You guys really think this program isn't in the hands of those that want to use it already?
Why don't you all direct your forum-energy at the real problem, local, instead of crying that your sense of fairness in EVE ( oh the irony ) has been shattered?
NO.
I am not going to succumb to the "local" problem when in fact this has nothing to do with local. It has to do with LOGGING.
I mentioned it earlier and I can mention it now. This sort of stuff can be used to read out damage reports coming in real time and possibly tell you how long you are going to have left based on the reports the logs show.
This has absolutely nothing to do with local and those that bring it up are direct proponents of the motive that this software has brought forth whether it be indirect or hostile.
Originally by: Koala Bare Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it.
Can't you see that it's plain as day? They're using this as a form of forum warfare to get people polarized on an issue to make CCP feel like they have to do something about it! Just like the Goons, too! It is literally clear as crystal what is going on here and I ******* hate it!
*cries* Why are you guys trying to destroy EVE :((((((
Log parsing apps in many cases provide utilities that should have been in the game from day 1. Various calculation and co-ordination utilities that our computers are capable of now should be available to advanced multi star-system alliances thousands of years from now.
The apps are only a problem when combined with the free intel tool that is local.
Logs should be encrypted, CCP should provide official versions of these apps in the game and local needs to die. If the public revelation of BACON speeds this up....so much the better.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:26:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Koala Bare Not to be a pain, but I've come across similar apps which date back much further then this one. This one strikes me as the only one with the sense, or balls, or suicidal tendencies, whichever, to advertise it.
Can't you see that it's plain as day? They're using this as a form of forum warfare to get people polarized on an issue to make CCP feel like they have to do something about it! Just like the Goons, too! It is literally clear as crystal what is going on here and I ******* hate it!
I was referring to stuff of across the last year, and in one case of someone's citizen alliance I infiltrated for fun ganks on another toon for far longer. Such forum presences.
I don't think BACON was simply put together to force CCP in a typical knee jerk reaction. I do think CCP will watch this with interest however, not for what we like or dislike, but for continuing the evolution of EVE - regardless of what we think, it is their sandbox after all. We're just the mice :P
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:31:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:31:10
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ....Logs should be encrypted....
That's all that needs to be done!
I hate how everyone thinks local is such a problem :( I've lived with it since day one and I love it and hate it at the same time, but it's something that I have learned to embrace. Not as just a tool, but it warms the left side of my screen :) And if it ever goes away it is because of the whines of people here causing it.
The coin works on both sides, yet we see EVE working at peak efficiency. PVP happens, carebears still get their peace in highsec and large alliance wars are duked out... everything is peachy. EVE is never ever going to simulate real life because it is a GAME. You can make the orange look like an apple but the orange will never taste like an apple. (Read that as though we can have the appearance of what it would be like in real life the experience will never be exactly as it would be in real life.)
:( I'm seriously hurt over this.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:32:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa EVE is never ever going to simulate real life because it is a GAME.
You sir, just shattered my world.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:47:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Reuser
Honestly, we tried to emulate your trusted third party-ness with this tool. We've bent over backwards to be transparent, CCP compliant, and open with this tool. We've tried to give EVERYONE access to the same things at the same time, while balancing being able to release a usable product.
Again, open source, GPL, and accountable to CCP. I wish I could do more for you, because quite honestly, I think you and we are on the right path.
This is my PERSONAL opinion, not a statement of Gunfleet policy. I think you will find that most of us agree with this post, however.
There are large differences with using tools such as this and the services Chribba does. And imo tools like this are gamebreaking as it completely changes the gameplay as you dont even have to pay attention to local anymore.
Automatisation like this is bad for the game.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:49:00 -
[70]
Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
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Docain
M. Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:53:00 -
[71]
I'm really looking forward to Ambulation. This will make us forget about this. Or maybe not.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:58:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Durzel Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
In some ways yes, but then again the more people that use such a tool the bigger the problem. But anyway CCP should take steps to stop all such tools, not just BACON.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:59:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:31:10
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ....Logs should be encrypted....
That's all that needs to be done!
I hate how everyone thinks local is such a problem :( I've lived with it since day one and I love it and hate it at the same time, but it's something that I have learned to embrace. Not as just a tool, but it warms the left side of my screen :) And if it ever goes away it is because of the whines of people here causing it.
The coin works on both sides, yet we see EVE working at peak efficiency. PVP happens, carebears still get their peace in highsec and large alliance wars are duked out... everything is peachy. EVE is never ever going to simulate real life because it is a GAME. You can make the orange look like an apple but the orange will never taste like an apple. (Read that as though we can have the appearance of what it would be like in real life the experience will never be exactly as it would be in real life.)
:( I'm seriously hurt over this.
There have been rumblings from CCP about the local issue right back to Castor (can't comment on 'before'). Perhaps this will serve to focus minds. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 11:04:00 -
[74]
Originally by: MassonA Well it would be Hydra. Yes I went there.
Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 11:04:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Durzel Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
Well, look what just popped up in the thread on this in the technology section.
I wonder who else is going to come clean >.<
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Papa Ina
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:05:00 -
[76]
Looks like just a reskin of beetracker. Not only cheating but being unoriginal too. You should probably credit Goonswarm in there too.
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:06:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Hoshi Anyone here have actually tried to run the log server for any extended periods of time? The extra lag and general unresponsiveness it creates more than offsets any positive effects.
From the Beekeeper page: Start the Log Server. Enable tools -> Server Mode -option, set linecount to 1000 to prevent lag.
While you make a fair point, I can't help but wonder if this has already been addressed.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:06:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/04/2008 10:31:10
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot ....Logs should be encrypted....
That's all that needs to be done!
I hate how everyone thinks local is such a problem :( I've lived with it since day one and I love it and hate it at the same time, but it's something that I have learned to embrace. Not as just a tool, but it warms the left side of my screen :) And if it ever goes away it is because of the whines of people here causing it.
:( I'm seriously hurt over this.
sry sig but local is a massive problem and if you can't see it you are missing a huge issue with eve that is limitinf risk vs reward and stunuting eve development.
Join us in the Exploration channel.
The odds on me being here are rather slim evolutionary speaking, yet in the infinite bounds of probability my being here is a certainty. |
Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:08:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Durzel Can someone explain to me how this is any different to Goonswarm's Beetracker? As a software dev myself surely since in the absence of CCP actually outlawing it isn't it better than everyone has it in an open-source form, rather than closed-source and restricted only to privileged people?
In some ways yes, but then again the more people that use such a tool the bigger the problem. But anyway CCP should take steps to stop all such tools, not just BACON.
Well, there are different ways of thinking about it really.
Some believe the less people that know about it the better - therefore problem isn't as widespread. That logic unfortunately means that there are an unknown number of people playing the game that have an artificial advantage that they perhaps shouldn't, and the rest of the playerbase just have to lump it.
There are others - myself included - that believe that if there are "exploits" out there like this then it's best that everyone knows about it, until it's fixed, so that a) it raises the priority of fixing it (as appropriate) and b) no one is at an unfair disadvantage.
Personally speaking purely as an interested observer I had no clue apps like this existed or were possible, as I'm sure many other people didn't, and if it weren't for the debate I wouldn't even know there were other versions around (i.e. Beetracker). There could be any number of other closed-source apps floating around being used by big alliances with more nefarious intentions or wider implications for the game. Just because we don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't already in use - BACON just shows what is possible.
I must admit also I find it quite interesting that most of the resistance seems to be from those who would be most affected by it (e.g. pirates). Part of me wonders whether this is genuine concern about the direction of the game, fear that their tactics (cheap?) will become less effective, or jealousy/anger that other people will have a tool (BACON) that they already have a comparable version of themselves - or a combination of the above.
The flip side of BACON is that you could easily write a similar tool to track suicide gank targets, etc. It seems that most of the anger is fuelled by the fact that BACON is principally an "anti piracy" tool in its existing guise.
A lot of what I've read in this thread isn't very objective at all, it's predominately people moaning that their way of life/griefing/ganking is going to be affected by this....
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:11:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Durzel I must admit also I find it quite interesting that most of the resistance seems to be from those who would be most affected by it (e.g. pirates). Part of me wonders whether this is genuine concern about the direction of the game, fear that their tactics (cheap?) will become less effective, or jealousy/anger that other people will have a tool (BACON) that they already have a comparable version of themselves - or a combination of the above.
Tactics and the way the game is are directly related to each other.
If you remove a pirate's ability to kill people, you remove piracy from the game. If you remove piracy from EVE, you are forced to declare war. And if you are forced to declare war, EVE loses its risk factor, and low-sec becomes "safe". :(
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:15:00 -
[81]
And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
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Gojyu
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:18:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yup. If people are able to do this kind of thing, the ability to resize/move some buttons seems kinda moot as far as game advantage goes
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:19:00 -
[83]
I don't like this app for several reasons.
I really hope this will bump up the local-issue on CCP's "to do list" tho.
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Garmon
Minmatar Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:19:00 -
[84]
I am EXTREMELY surprised that CCP allows this
Garmon is surprised __________________________________ Me being an hero in my battle boat
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:24:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Durzel on 20/04/2008 11:25:44 I don't think we can be too hard on the BACON devs, they've clearly only made public what already existed in other forms already for God knows how long. If anything the people moaning about this should be thankful that this "game breaking issue" is out in the open.
To use an FPS analogy, how would you feel if you were playing a game and you kept getting headshot by someone consistently? Maybe you'd think "that guy must be cheating" but then you'd probably just figure that since there weren't any known exploits/aimbots for the game that the guy "must've just been really good". Then someone publicly releases an aimbot that had previously only been available in closed circles and suddenly you release that the people you'd previously credited with good skill were actually cheating.
Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field and forces CCP to clarify one way or the other whether its an exploit, and take steps that outlaw now only BACON but the other countless behind-closed-doors apps doing the same thing (or worse) none of us know about that are in circulation.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:27:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Durzel I don't think we can be too hard on the BACON devs, they've clearly only made public what already existed in other forms already for God knows how long. If anything the people moaning about this should be thankful that this "game breaking issue" is out on the open.
To use an FPS analogy, how would you feel if you were playing a game and you kept getting headshot by someone consistently? Maybe you'd think "that guy must be cheating" but then you'd probably just figure that since there weren't any known exploits/aimbots for the game that the guy "must've just been really good". Then someone publicly releases an aimbot and suddenly you release that the people you'd previously credited with good skill were actually cheating.
Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field and forces CCP to clarify one way or the other whether its an exploit, and take steps that outlaw now only BACON but the other countless behind-closed-doors apps doing the same thing (or worse) none of us know about that are in circulation.
Yes we can, this is a box of pandora. It's no different from inventing the atomic bomb and then shout out to the world proudly "LOOK WHAT WE MADE!"
The programmer of is this program and it's predecessors (guess what, goons again) didn't care about the implications. Fukc them!
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:33:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Pohbis on 20/04/2008 11:35:38
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yes yes... tools reading log-files is exactly the same as skinning and moving buttons around on the screen.
You honor your sig, good Sir
As for the matter at hand. I think it speaks volumes that some people in here actually say they'd rather have this issue swept under the carpet and let a select few use such tools, instead of having them out in the open and be dealt with.
There's no point in arguing with such people. They aren't concerned about 'fairness', they are after 'perceived fairness'.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:34:00 -
[88]
they made it; fukc them they're proud of it; fukc them
they made it open source; admirable, but it doesn't make up for their first two mistakes.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:34:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
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shantaa
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:35:00 -
[90]
This is quite disturbing. As these 3rd party products are hooking into eve's log server program not the eve client. The log server monitors more than what a pilot can see. Coupled with the fact that any competent programmer could merge the data from multiple log servers. Thus, providing real time tactical data for an entire region! This log server exploit needs to be stamped out.
I doubt changing local will solve this problem, unless the change is also reflected in the log server. Log encryption might work, but it would have to be good encryption to prevent it from being *****ed and thus useless.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:37:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius. Encrypting logfiles works, because CCP does not need to access local logfiles that often, and it would not put load on the server in any way.
That's what should be done, then we can be over with this.
I hope this is gone by Monday.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:39:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:40:23 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:39:53
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yes yes... tools reading log-files is exactly the same as skinning and moving buttons around on the screen.
You honor your sig, good Sir
As for the matter at hand. I think it speaks volumes that some people in here actually say they'd rather have this issue swept under the carpet and let a select few use such tools, instead of having them out in the open and be dealt with.
There's no point in arguing with such people. They aren't concerned about 'fairness', they are after 'perceived fairness'.
This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:39:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Cesar Malari For more information, please visit the installation pages at: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/
To get full use out of BACON, you'll need to create a standings file. Here's instructions for doing that.
Hai and tanks for the porduct. I am loking at bacon for educasiomal use and I can't donwload the src for 1.0.0.2. I thikn the link is damiged. Pls fix, tansk.
Keep up the gut work and ignore the bad kritics. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment -KB- |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:40:00 -
[94]
Originally by: shantaa This is quite disturbing. As these 3rd party products are hooking into eve's log server program not the eve client.
No they don't. That would be against the EULA. They read the logfiles generated on the users HD.
That's on of the issues. CCP can't check if people use this tool or not.
They sure as hell could see if people we're sniffing the server logs. Not that it matters, CCPs log don't show anything
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:41:00 -
[95]
Originally by: shantaa This is quite disturbing. As these 3rd party products are hooking into eve's log server program not the eve client. The log server monitors more than what a pilot can see. Coupled with the fact that any competent programmer could merge the data from multiple log servers. Thus, providing real time tactical data for an entire region! This log server exploit needs to be stamped out.
I doubt changing local will solve this problem, unless the change is also reflected in the log server. Log encryption might work, but it would have to be good encryption to prevent it from being *****ed and thus useless.
It's quite scary really.
As a programmer myself I'm already having thoughts about what could be possible with this. I'm sure it would be fairly trivial to feed this data from various sources (people in the same alliance all running the same tool) into a centralised database and ending up with an intel network that updates in real-time. Want advance warning that a band of people you've been monitoring are on the move? Want to track the movements of individuals/groups and be able to compare it with previous data to work out patterns of movement? The possibilities are endless.
The scary part is - for all you or I know it's already been done.......
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:44:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius. Encrypting logfiles works, because CCP does not need to access local logfiles that often, and it would not put load on the server in any way.
That's what should be done, then we can be over with this.
I hope this is gone by Monday.
I don't think encryption is the answer, as it only plugs a hole for so long. And then you're back to square one where the few have it and the masses are just happily ignorant of it.
I think they would have to change their ScatterEvent method calls or whatever it is that does the local updates to make them unuseable for us to be able to call it "fixed".
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:45:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tzar'rim This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
Yes. I've played WoW.
Mods cover a broad spectrum tho and what you'll see is that people are asking for skin mods. Like changing the graphics for the UI and re-sizing and moving the UI. Most aren't asking for a scripting language to do in-game macros.
Not that it matters. There's a ton of tools out there to do that already.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:45:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
*snip*
And my point was that now that this is in the open it will be firmly on CCP's radar. Without BACON being publicly released CCP might not have any clue that this sort of thing was going on or even possible.
Now they do - and everyone is ultimately better off as a result either by CCP doing something to stop ALL apps like this working (e.g. encrypting the logs), or legitimising it - either way I'd rather have a climate where everyone has the same advantages available to them rather than a select few.
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Garmon
Minmatar Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:46:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Cesar Malari For more information, please visit the installation pages at: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/
To get full use out of BACON, you'll need to create a standings file. Here's instructions for doing that.
Hai and tanks for the porduct. I am loking at bacon for educasiomal use and I can't donwload the src for 1.0.0.2. I thikn the link is damiged. Pls fix, tansk.
Keep up the gut work and ignore the bad kritics.
I like the post you do __________________________________ Me being an hero in my battle boat
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:47:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Cesar Malari For more information, please visit the installation pages at: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/
To get full use out of BACON, you'll need to create a standings file. Here's instructions for doing that.
Hai and tanks for the porduct. I am loking at bacon for educasiomal use and I can't donwload the src for 1.0.0.2. I thikn the link is damiged. Pls fix, tansk.
Keep up the gut work and ignore the bad kritics.
This is a serious issue that doesn't need flamebait like this. If this get's allowed (no, it does not yet have CCP approval) into the game it set a dangerous precedent --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius.
You wouldn't happen to work in the record industry, would you?
Local encrypted logs? Honestly, how long do you think it would take to break the encryption?
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Elendar
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[102]
didn't ccp recently state that real isk selling hurts the game? hope they ban a tool that makes it even easier for the farmers ---------------------------- There is no sig |
Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
o\
That wasn't my point. My point was if they're going to do something about it, remove the possibility of cheating for everyone.
Seriously, I forget who posted it now, but whoever said encrypt the logs is an epic genius. Encrypting logfiles works, because CCP does not need to access local logfiles that often, and it would not put load on the server in any way.
That's what should be done, then we can be over with this.
I hope this is gone by Monday.
I don't think encryption is the answer, as it only plugs a hole for so long. And then you're back to square one where the few have it and the masses are just happily ignorant of it.
I think they would have to change their ScatterEvent method calls or whatever it is that does the local updates to make them unuseable for us to be able to call it "fixed".
PGP encryption would most likely work and fits a model where one entity decrypts whilst any number of untrusted (i.e. us ) clients encrypt. I'm over-simplifying it though.
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:48:00 -
[104]
Hm, now people dont even have to pay attention to Local to get intel they shouldnt get in the first place.
Gr8.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:49:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
instas -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 11:49:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 20/04/2008 11:51:00 I am just halping out proublems. Teh guy siad it is in goodwil and it is gpl but the src for .2 is not out. I am halping to see no viruses ... I am halping comunity ...
Ok, find. I won't download and read src if you don't want me too. I perfer not too halp anymore.
Sowwy. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment -KB- |
Gojyu
Ever Flow
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 11:50:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:40:23 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 20/04/2008 11:39:53
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Tzar'rim And so it has begun for real, any other smart asses still wanting mods and the ability to alter/change the interface?
Yes yes... tools reading log-files is exactly the same as skinning and moving buttons around on the screen.
You honor your sig, good Sir
As for the matter at hand. I think it speaks volumes that some people in here actually say they'd rather have this issue swept under the carpet and let a select few use such tools, instead of having them out in the open and be dealt with.
There's no point in arguing with such people. They aren't concerned about 'fairness', they are after 'perceived fairness'.
This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
I agree 100%. You let people mod the game and you have no idea what will be created. Imagine, someone could potentially create something that was extreme enough to, say, warn people when hostiles are entering local. Such an event should never be allowed to occur in eve
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:50:00 -
[108]
I can hardly show any surprise to this being used, or having been used (in one form or another) in the past. When an app like this pops up, everyone will argue over its' merit / argue that it's an exploit; but the fact that remains it's arisen because the game lacked proper Intel Management in the GUI. While people seem to think 'BAWWWW Remove Local it's not fair to piwates BAWWWW', the evidence is more that: CCP has not done enough in the department of a customizable GUI. Their focus has been (GOD KNOWS WHY) everything but what people want in this game (and lol you think they 'listen').
I'm not going to put the blame purely on CCP here, there's only so much they are capable of with all the celebratory galas, self congratulation and dealing with their own mistakes on a patch to patch basis (while really not fixing anything) they simply don't have time to create something useful (oh wait, female corpses. huzzah!).
The fact is CCP knew about this a LONG time ago, could have beaten it to the punch long before Trinity by remodeling the GUI and Intel processes (like adding customization, sounds, etc.) but did nothing about it. Why people are here, arguing about it now is purely a lack of introspection. You're all looking more for a debate and not pressing hard enough against the people that should have made this unnecessary in the first place.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:52:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Tzar'rim This isn't even a mod, any ideas what would happen if "creative people" would be able to make mods, and then combine them and then combine them some more?
This is a road to nowhere.
Yes. I've played WoW.
Mods cover a broad spectrum tho and what you'll see is that people are asking for skin mods. Like changing the graphics for the UI and re-sizing and moving the UI. Most aren't asking for a scripting language to do in-game macros.
Not that it matters. There's a ton of tools out there to do that already.
And you think that if CCP gives the tools, options and possibilities to make skin mods and stuff liek that, that it's going to stop right there? that all of a sudden the liberties and possiblities do not create MORE problems like we have them now?
I don't have problems with people wanting to resize their UI, but I see the REALITY that this opens yet another box of pandora and in that respect I'd rather be on the safe side and NOT allow for mods or UI changes.
As you so brilliantly showed closing your eyes and ears for the possible implication of allowing mods and UI changes does not keep them away.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:56:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Durzel As a programmer myself I'm already having thoughts about what could be possible with this. I'm sure it would be fairly trivial to feed this data from various sources (people in the same alliance all running the same tool) into a centralised database and ending up with an intel network that updates in real-time. Want advance warning that a band of people you've been monitoring are on the move? Want to track the movements of individuals/groups and be able to compare it with previous data to work out patterns of movement? The possibilities are endless.
The scary part is - for all you or I know it's already been done.......
There are two (0.0 PVP) alliances that I know of who use what you are referring to, a central intel network. With cloakers stationed around various spots it gives them a real time tracking capability as well as nifty advance warning. While those two each have their own tool, and while each uses it on only high level in their respective alliances, the case stands .. what you describe already is in use. Has been in use for quite some time even.
Now one of the two uses it for advance warning when going after towers and stuff, as long as the alts are in place properly it gives them ample warning of what is coming but that is about it. The other is more advanced, it stores and lets you filter data collected over time and annotate references.
The heat visible sofar here, is not about local, or about the logserver, or about this BACON tool. It is about the visibility of the tool. The scale of use isn't changing much, after all given how a similar tool is in rather predominant use in several 0.0 alliances (strangely enough those rather err unlike Hydra) it comes down to the announcement.
For the first time one of those lot who do this kind of stuff put it out here. For all to see and use, rather then their own alliances. We can fool ourselves in thinking that this will lead to major spread, but let's face it, in the concept as it is the place of use is deep space and deep low sec, places where the folks run around who already use this kind of stuff, and have used for a long time.
What I like is how the new visibility of these tools now shows the way to a new dynamic. Instead of a static medium, with these tools Local is becoming dynamic in interaction. What lacks is a typical EVE mechanism to tweak & balance. Regardless of the operational principle, there are no skills or modules required here. EVE is not a submarine game, so I doubt a type of ping / sonar / active / passive scanning mechanism is feasible, but I'm sure CCP will have several lines of thoughts here.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:58:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade If this get's allowed and no, it does not yet have CCP approval, it sets a dangerous precedent
I'm afraid you are wrong. CCP verdict has been quite clear already. They see nothing against the EULA, and are taking no action against this. All they do is the normal reservation that they can always change their mind. Look up the thread in the Technology section.
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Tzar'rim
Reckless Corsairs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:04:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Koala Bare At least 2 0.0 alliances use something similar
Please name and shame.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:04:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Elendar didn't ccp recently state that real isk selling hurts the game? hope they ban a tool that makes it even easier for the farmers
Just for the heck of it, and in the light of the recent hickup of that source code leak, I've been google & forum whoring.
The amount of macro's and hacks and injection tools for EVE have kinda scared me off my chair, I never thought there would be as much of this crap for EVE as for Lineage or WoW. Unnerving to say the least.
But, none of those "tools" (I can't call a cheating app real software tbfh) have or make any use of the logserver. Going over the list they all use something called screen detection or code injection. They interact straight with the client, basically.
I was kinda hoping there actually would be a tangible relation between the impact of this tool and the concept of cheating / macro / farming and all that, that way it could be posed as an argument. Trouble is, those "tools" are way more advanced then this.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:11:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde I'm gonna say what we're all thinking:
"So *THAT'S* how Hydra keeps their space..."
Seriously irresponsible program. CCP gave them the opening but they should have the self respect and dignity to know better. And BACON users should be just ashamed. Probably arnt, but should be.
Shame on X player for using EvE-Mon.
Shame on X player for using EvE Meep.
Same complaints. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:12:00 -
[115]
Not familer with EVEMeep, but EVE Mon is, essentially, a calculator alarm clock. I dont think it's quite as bad.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:14:00 -
[116]
As remarked by others you can't really compare the likes of Evemon, EFT, etc with this. Those programs are essentially just "advanced guides" - they don't give you any kind of realtime advantage ingame.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:14:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Koala Bare
Originally by: Gabriel Karade If this get's allowed and no, it does not yet have CCP approval, it sets a dangerous precedent
I'm afraid you are wrong. CCP verdict has been quite clear already. They see nothing against the EULA, and are taking no action against this. All they do is the normal reservation that they can always change their mind. Look up the thread in the Technology section.
Let me again, quote the last developer response to this:
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
There is no EULA violation, but there is also no CCP approval of it. I'm sure we shall hear more from someone more senior soon... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Croziac
Gallente Dark Zone Security Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:17:00 -
[118]
This is pretty sad. It gives an unfair advantage to players that are semi-afk. CCP now just needs to create a delay of like 10mins to the logfiles or wheaver so they can counteract this.
This basically suggests that you don't even need to care about local anymore.
And as others have pointed out its against the spirit of the game.
What next?
As for some other posts in regards to other programs. EVE-Mon & EVE-MEEP do not give an advantage of something similar to this. One keeps track of skills, while the other keeps a track of industry. Kind of different don't you think?
Thanks, Croziac
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:18:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Durzel As remarked by others you can't really compare the likes of Evemon, EFT, etc with this. Those programs are essentially just "advanced guides" - they don't give you any kind of realtime advantage ingame.
They do cut down on research people can do outside of it. Same kind of real complaint here. "Vigilance" over "Passive" watching. With EvE Mon, you just plug in what you want and it automatically suggests the best way to go about it. Makes it easier in the end, right?
-----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:18:00 -
[120]
Jeez... I'm tempted to just say screw fixing scanning and can local all together if this program gets sanctioned.
I'd rather EVE everyone crawling around blindly in the dark depths of space than every pilot having a mobile system wide Brinks Home Security System.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
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F90OEX
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 12:25:00 -
[121]
Where there's smoke, there's fire ... I'm sure there is more to this program, then made public.
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Calvinus Maximus
Black Sheeps Solidus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:25:00 -
[122]
CCP PLEASE STOP THIS!!
As written above by other ppl I think this is unfair to people who really play EVE!
STAND to your rules and don¦t allow this! |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:28:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Koala Bare
Originally by: Gabriel Karade If this get's allowed and no, it does not yet have CCP approval, it sets a dangerous precedent
I'm afraid you are wrong. CCP verdict has been quite clear already. They see nothing against the EULA, and are taking no action against this. All they do is the normal reservation that they can always change their mind. Look up the thread in the Technology section.
Let me again, quote the last developer response to this:
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
There is no EULA violation, but there is also no CCP approval of it. I'm sure we shall hear more from someone more senior soon...
And that is the gist of how this always goes. The verdict is clear, no EULA violation, it is ok. As any normal company reserves the right to change their mind should they find that it does go against the EULA. Until such a time, it's fine. Grimmi stating his belief that "it is ok" and reserving (as usual) the right for CCP to review is an approval until such a time that CCP do change their mind. He even points out how to provide information to demonstrate that the tool does go against the EULA.
Considering some comments and feature removal on the BACON site I get the impression though that there have been more communications then that thread in the Technology section. Look at the edit on the website of the "important features" section. I'd love some more information on any such comms for the sake of an open discussion.
Either way they will need to put this case on a small pile, as there is a good number of other tools around which use the logs the client generates and/or the logs the logserver generates. Outside of the EULA CCP have simply no policy for logs (let's not go into the trouble of enforcing any log file specific policy on the client side, can of worms). There are market tools, private and (semi) public which make use of the logserver, there are market tools which make use of game logs. Is there a difference between the two types? Dunno tbh.
But it's yet another case where an arbitrary decision can't be made on the use of generated logs, only - if it would come to it - to this particular tool in question.
Regardless of my dislike for BACON on a private level, I still commend the authors for deciding to get in touch with CCP and take it from there. Nobody else has done that. Granted it has opened a major discussion, but up until this point nobody gave a damn, as not many folks outside of deep space alliances knew these things existed.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:28:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Calvinus Maximus CCP PLEASE STOP THIS!!
As written above by other ppl I think this is unfair to people who really play EVE!
STAND to your rules and don¦t allow this!
Anyone who uses this program would be a player too you know. Even Macro miners in a way play EvE. (Though I hate the fact that they exploit the economy like they do. :s ) -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:30:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Koala Bare
I was kinda hoping there actually would be a tangible relation between the impact of this tool and the concept of cheating / macro / farming and all that, that way it could be posed as an argument. Trouble is, those "tools" are way more advanced then this.
Not at all, they are actually completely un-advanced and basic in nature. Since they run separately from the client and only refresh on client log files they are pretty easy to do. NOW: ask yourself, what's a good alternative? Having these logs stored server side? Enjoy your lagfest. I'm not going to pull a 'as a developer myself blah blah blah' card and talk out my butt as so many already do, but I can assure you there is no real technology here and I'm more suprised people haven't taken it to borderline EULA-infringing methods yet in other areas.
This is the tip of the iceberg.
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Dr Totenkopf
Caldari Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:44:00 -
[126]
lol! the whine in this thread is great!
Guys, I will now quote a very popular phrase in this forum: "Adapt or die"
All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:49:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf lol! the whine in this thread is great!
Guys, I will now quote a very popular phrase in this forum: "Adapt or die"
All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
You're one to talk. *looks at your corp ticker*
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N'irrti
Amarr Reach Fuileach
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:49:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
so disturbing supply lines by ganking ratters and making life tough for an alliance is not pvp?
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:50:00 -
[129]
Since you may be a "noob" to the merc profession Dr., take my advice on the subject. It's bad for our buisness.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:51:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde on 20/04/2008 12:50:53
Originally by: N'irrti
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
so disturbing supply lines by ganking ratters and making life tough for an alliance is not pvp?
This guy.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:52:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
CCP decides who the cheaters are. Either everyone is, or no-one is.
I doubt that the current state of affairs is likely to change in the near future, for several reasons:
1. Tentative developer/GM approval 2. The logserver is an essential testing tool. All of its capabilities are (probably) there for a good reason and removing them would be harmful. 3. This only affects about 10% of the player base. The vast, silent majority of players all stick almost exclusively to high-sec (and don't take part in wars). 4. As long as these tools don't directly interact with the client, it's very hard for CCP to tell who's using them. 5. Making the necessary changes to stop people doing this sort of thing would probably require considerable developer time. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:59:00 -
[132]
Only affects 10% of the player base? You're kidding I hope...
0.0/lowsec users, anyone in any player corp (as all player corps are at risk for war), miners and industrialists as mineral prices and ship demand drop.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:01:00 -
[133]
Alright,
just some thinking. BACON focuses on alerting players by means of audio on bad people arriving in their local. By many people this is perceived as unfair advance warning.
Thing is, it isn't advance warning. The only difference is the audio alert.
When roaming for ganks, the people who end up first on the target list are those who are 1) afk, 2) deaf because of the wife screaming and responding too slow, 3) idiots sitting with a rorqual in a belt, 4) folks yapping on TS while idling between cycle times in a belt. Anything after that comes down to folks responding to a gank incursion.
People who are afk can try and run back to their PC if they hear a crazy alarm, but by that time they're scrambled anyway. Good scanning is pretty fast and solid, and regardless of that most folks who are fond of farming particular targets make the effort of putting an alt or two in the target alliance or corp, so that they know what is going on real time.
People who are deaf because of the wife, die either way as the wife is probably secretly in Triumvirate having fun killing the hubbie.
Idiots parking big ships in a belt are subject to evolution anyhow, and by the time it is responding you'll be on it, if you're as good as you want to be. If you've got an alt in the target group you'll already know where to go anyway. Even then some nitwit going silly "omg my billion isk rorqual I am trying to warp" is always a good recipee for getting the targets to come out and play. The real definition of farming :P
Folks yapping on TS while relying on something like BACON will after a while shrug off alerts as they hear them too often and after someone asks for the millionth time "who's alert was that between person X and Y yapping" any fast respons possibility is out of the window. Human nature.
Any organisation who structurally depends on a tool like BACON for their livelyhood is dead anyway, because the only real alternative for them is to log off straight up, and I am really curious how long a piece of claimed space lasts if the defenders all log off. Kick em out, replace em with others. It's the way EVE goes round.
The only solid impact I can see is in structural use of such a tool for alerting inbound traffic. Scouts parked around. The difference between how people do that now, and with a tool like BACON is the audio alert. A scout may be having a bio, and miss a gank squad, now he hears sirenes while taking a dump. An organisation which uses alt scouts and a tool like BACON can achieve a solid intel network on traffic and alerting. With some compensation for the human factor of this being a game .. regardless of whether used offensively or defensively, you still need the human to be active, to communicate, and to watch. Again the difference lies in the audio alert.
PVP isn't meant to be about having a perfect easy recipee for ganks. It takes effort, skills, experience, gut and brains. No external tool will saveguard an organisation from conflict. If they try to shrug away from conflict by logging off, they'll have a pretty dead organisation without space soon enough anyway.
Macro farmers rely on totally different "tools". And I do think we have to be honest, with so many people having alts and multiple accounts around, it is far easier (hopefully CCP does something soon) for people to have fun on one account / pc and have a ratting alt running with a bot on another account. I googled into another surprise in this regard, an EVE Bot which does exactly that. Considering how widespread that particular one is, this tool isn't going to have any impact or bearing on that. We can only hope CCP infiltrates such cheater sites and "tools" and goes straight to war with em. After all the googling and nasty surprises I have no more objections to daily patches messing up such tools tbfh >.<
BACON won't stop anyone from farming HYDRA tbh.
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Kale Kold
Caldari Vicious Little Killers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:01:00 -
[134]
BACON! A pirate's best friend!!! Mwhahahah!
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Virtuozzo
IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:12:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Virtuozzo on 20/04/2008 13:11:58 I wonder how long it'll be until we see people customising those audio alerts with excerpts like "I am bringing out the sniper dread" or "I am coming in hot" :P
It had to be Hydra >.<
CAOD FTW.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:18:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Durzel
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Durzel Having apps like BACON in the public domain is better than not having them as it creates a level playing field...
Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
And now CCP have to make a decision whether BACON and other apps that abuse logServer are legit or not.
I fail to see how that's any worse than a situation where there are an unknown number of BACON-like apps being developed & run behind-closed-doors by specific alliances?
Yes because CCP saying it's not allowed will really stop alot of people from using it.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:24:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Dr Totenkopf lol! the whine in this thread is great!
Guys, I will now quote a very popular phrase in this forum: "Adapt or die"
All you pvp lovers will still get your fights but get over it that ganking ratters is NOT pvp...
Says who? You?
Flamebait aside, you'd have to be very short-sighted to miss the can of worms this opens... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:26:00 -
[138]
With a few lines of code, this app could even automatically "CTRL-Q" for the player by terminating the Exefile.EXE process.
What a load a *******s CCP, if you actually are going to allow this and don't close this loop hole. Logserver files are to be encrypted, they're only there for CCP to analyse software failure. Just implement a public/private key encryption on the logfile -> problem solved. -
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:32:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr With a few lines of code, this app could even automatically "CTRL-Q" for the player by terminating the Exefile.EXE process.
What a load a *******s CCP, if you actually are going to allow this and don't close this loop hole. Logserver files are to be encrypted, they're only there for CCP to analyse software failure. Just implement a public/private key encryption on the logfile -> problem solved.
Still googling around, in continuation from a previous post. Having just come across an EVE Bot which uses screen detection on the local list to - depending on configuration - warp & cloak or quit, this tool makes zero difference in that regard.
Encryption could be an option, if CCP would be smart enough to think up a way to to properly implement it. But that changes nothing for the abomination of "lookie bad people, ctrl + Q" syndrome from the looks of it.
Quite frankly, on a private level BACON isn't going to sizzle. But if widespread on an organisational level it can have an impact in regards to (proper) scouting. Then again, if the buggers log off, they're not going to keep space for long anyhow.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:32:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Thorradin on 20/04/2008 13:33:08
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde I'm gonna say what we're all thinking:
"So *THAT'S* how Hydra keeps their space..."
Seriously irresponsible program. CCP gave them the opening but they should have the self respect and dignity to know better. And BACON users should be just ashamed. Probably arnt, but should be.
Shame on X player for using EvE-Mon.
Shame on X player for using EvE Meep.
Same complaints.
Did you just compare a fancy alarm clock like EVE-Mon to a full-blown data mining program that uses the game files as they are not intended to be used?
I guess EFT is just as bad as the eve mining bots then?
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Sir JoJo
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:34:00 -
[141]
why dont it suprise me this **** comes from HYDRA
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Cadela Fria
Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:41:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Cesar Malari
BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements)
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
False advertisement. This program has NOT been approved by CCP.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:43:00 -
[143]
What else can a player monitor through the logserver? ---
Put in space whales!
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:44:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven What else can a player monitor through the logserver?
Question of the year.
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Lancer Maelstorm
Amarr Art of War
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:58:00 -
[145]
Something to think about... Even WoW banned mods *cough*hacks*cough* like this one. It is just unreal how much this would ruin the game... If you are allowed to use logs to find out when someone enters local, and then alert you... Why not just let us create macros that start miners up, and dock up 6 minutes after and then play a track? Wouldn't that make eve so much better!
Anyhow, back to the point... BACON = Fail.
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:59:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
CCP decides who the cheaters are. Either everyone is, or no-one is.
I doubt that the current state of affairs is likely to change in the near future, for several reasons:
1. Tentative developer/GM approval 2. The logserver is an essential testing tool. All of its capabilities are (probably) there for a good reason and removing them would be harmful. 3. This only affects about 10% of the player base. The vast, silent majority of players all stick almost exclusively to high-sec (and don't take part in wars). 4. As long as these tools don't directly interact with the client, it's very hard for CCP to tell who's using them. 5. Making the necessary changes to stop people doing this sort of thing would probably require considerable developer time.
I think Kazuo hit the nail on the head here. Regardless of how this does or does not break game mechanics, there isn't anything practical that CCP can do about it without modifying the logServer. Since it doesn't interact directly with the EvE client, they have no control over it. It doesn't send anything to the server so they can't monitor for network traffic. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Zoe Sedai
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:13:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Regardless of how this does or does not break game mechanics, there isn't anything practical that CCP can do about it without modifying the logServer. Since it doesn't interact directly with the EvE client, they have no control over it. It doesn't send anything to the server so they can't monitor for network traffic.
Encrypting the logserver data would take all of 5 minutes, so your argument doesn't hold water.
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:14:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Koala Bare on 20/04/2008 14:15:40
Originally by: Cadela Fria
Originally by: Cesar Malari
BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements)
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
False advertisement. This program has NOT been approved by CCP.
Please let's try and stay constructive, as opposed to just quoting in and out arbitrarily based solely on private opinions (though tbh we're in agreement on the concept). This is yet another major milestone for EVE, and should be handled with care by everyone for that reason.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
It's only a few posts further in that thread.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:37:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde Only affects 10% of the player base? You're kidding I hope...
0.0/lowsec users, anyone in any player corp (as all player corps are at risk for war), miners and industrialists as mineral prices and ship demand drop.
First, wars are the exception, not the norm. A large proportion of empire-based corps never attract or start any wars, as they don't have any worthwhile targets.
I've travelled quite extensively in low sec, and most of it is completely deserted. This is consistent with the data published in the QEN-Q4 from last year. I admit I may have been a bit out with the 10% figure, but the pilots affected are certainly in the minority, however vocal they may be. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:42:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde Only affects 10% of the player base? You're kidding I hope...
0.0/lowsec users, anyone in any player corp (as all player corps are at risk for war), miners and industrialists as mineral prices and ship demand drop.
First, wars are the exception, not the norm. A large proportion of empire-based corps never attract or start any wars, as they don't have any worthwhile targets.
I've travelled quite extensively in low sec, and most of it is completely deserted. This is consistent with the data published in the QEN-Q4 from last year. I admit I may have been a bit out with the 10% figure, but the pilots affected are certainly in the minority, however vocal they may be.
You do realize 10% of the playerbase just covers (some of) the southern Bob/Goon war, right?
Lots of empire corps have wars, this tool would easily affect half of the playerbase, if not more.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:50:00 -
[151]
Well, I suppose it would be useful to have some statistics on wars. I don't think that there have been any yet in any of the QENs, or anywhere else. Let's not derail the thread too much, though My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:53:00 -
[152]
I feel sorry for anyone who thinks they need a tool like this.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:08:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Cori4n on 20/04/2008 15:14:34 I think this mass outcry is pretty funny considering that this stuff has been discussed for a long time in the EVE Technology Lab forum.
Besides, I don't think it breaks any "spirit of the game". On the contrary, I think that as long as an app can't perform any actions and just gets information from the client, then it ought to be fine and in fact encouraged.
In fact, I would say that there should be a "client side API" to allow this + more.
But you can flame me for that.
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Riho
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:10:00 -
[154]
ok.. my opinion on this.
i dont give f*** if this is legal.. ccp compliant... transparent.. GPL...
it BREAKS the spirit of the game... its a MACRO...as it tells you stuff that you should have to check yourself otherways.
this thread should be nuked... the program or any of that kind should be made illegal.
whit a 3rd party app you can hack another app to use its functions and cheat even more.
im strongly against it... legal or not... it breaks the spirit of the game and should be banned from use. ---------------------------------- Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Undocumented worker
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:15:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Undocumented worker on 20/04/2008 15:15:07 I could make good use of this tool!!!!
Especially when La Migra comes poking around
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Karunel
Princeps Corp T e r c i o s
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:24:00 -
[156]
Hands down terrible. ____
Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:30:00 -
[157]
I am against this app! Be good for farmer in 0.0 and really I thought EVE was working on a team building? you sure wont need to with this!
I think only thing that's ok as a 3rd party program is evemon tells you when your skills trained and plan ahead. BACON give advantage to some player! and shouldn't too so Ambushing a corp that's mining in 0.0 is not gone! or at least ask what people think!
I think the CCP should of thought about this for a bit!
Trinity Corporate Services
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:36:00 -
[158]
If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game.
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Exortius Amarrus
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:44:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Exortius Amarrus I never thought i'd say this.
But **** bacon.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:46:00 -
[160]
Im not a computer techie geek type person who understands programming and encryption or anything. So I wont say "turn off logs" or "encrypt logs" or suggest any technical solution, becuase Im smart enough to know when I dont know.
What I will say is, disable the method of getting this information. If encrypting logserver logs is the best way, then do this. As SOON AS ******* POSSIBLE. In the meantime ban the author of this program and in the next version of the EULA, explicitly forbid this sort of thing.
I cant imagine how ******* stupid you'd have to be to allow this sort of thing, let alone endorse it. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:48:00 -
[161]
Originally by: El Yatta In the meantime ban the author of this program and in the next version of the EULA, explicitly forbid this sort of thing.
Banning the author would be wrong. Just state that its not allowed and take steps to stop such programs from beeing developed.
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CogInTheWheel
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:54:00 -
[162]
Originally by: LordMordred Edited by: LordMordred on 20/04/2008 08:28:47 The first thread was nuked it would seem.
So here we go again.
This is simply crap in a can.
There is no way this should ever be made legal by CCP. This will effectly make roaming very hard to catch people off guard. Tactics are ruined enough by local as it is.
On top of all that. THIS IS A MACRO. There is no ands, ifs, or buts about it. It may find a loop-hole in the EULA, it may not.... but it breaks the spirit of the game and this spirit of the EULA
Macro(in the sense we are talking about here): A program that does something automatically. It is third party software that gives an unfair advantage to people who want to play EVE with out paying attention to EVE.
If the first thread was nuked as a result of my reporting the thread... then I hope this one gets the same threatment and an official and timely reply from CCP on this matter be made.
I dont see it as a macro at all. IMO a macro as concerns MMOs actually have an effect on the game client, this does not. This simply converts a visual indicator (local etc) with audible indicators.
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Nicholai Stropkov
Article 58
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:55:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Cori4n Edited by: Cori4n on 20/04/2008 15:19:07 Edited by: Cori4n on 20/04/2008 15:14:34 I think this mass outcry is pretty funny considering that this stuff has been discussed for a long time in the EVE Technology Lab forum.
Besides, I don't think it breaks any "spirit of the game". On the contrary, I think that as long as an app can't perform any actions and just gets information from the client, then it ought to be fine and in fact encouraged.
In fact, I would say that there should be a "client side API" to allow this + more.
But you can flame me for that.
EDIT2: Besides, macroers can already do this a heck of a lot easier, BACON on the other hand causes lag and is a pain to use, because it has to abide by the eula
best post in ****ty thread
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QuantumX
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:56:00 -
[164]
Originally by: El Yatta Im not a computer techie geek type person who understands programming and encryption or anything. So I wont say "turn off logs" or "encrypt logs" or suggest any technical solution, becuase Im smart enough to know when I dont know.
What I will say is, disable the method of getting this information. If encrypting logserver logs is the best way, then do this. As SOON AS ******* POSSIBLE. In the meantime ban the author of this program and in the next version of the EULA, explicitly forbid this sort of thing.
I cant imagine how ******* stupid you'd have to be to allow this sort of thing, let alone endorse it.
/agree ========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
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Cadela Fria
Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 16:14:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Koala Bare Edited by: Koala Bare on 20/04/2008 14:15:40
Originally by: Cadela Fria
Originally by: Cesar Malari
BACON's method of interaction with the log server and logs are EULA and TOS compliant and approved by CCP. Please see this thread for further information. (Specifically, CCP Lingorm and CCP Grimmi's statements)
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
False advertisement. This program has NOT been approved by CCP.
Please let's try and stay constructive, as opposed to just quoting in and out arbitrarily based solely on private opinions (though tbh we're in agreement on the concept). This is yet another major milestone for EVE, and should be handled with care by everyone for that reason.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
It's only a few posts further in that thread.
I am being constructive..Nowhere does it say that this is approved by CCP. All they've said is that as far as the TOS and EULA goes, it SEEMS to be okay, but it's still under investigation. This is a simple fact, and therefor false advertisement.
As far as your concern regarding my personal opinion, don't be alarmed, I have nothing against this particular piece of software at all. I'm just stating things the way they are.
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Howling Jinn
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 16:16:00 -
[166]
wow, all these leet pvp'ers complaining about a program which helps ratters and miners mostly.
yeah all we are looking for are good fights.
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Doc Fury
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 16:27:00 -
[167]
I must say I am a tad disappointed as I came here looking for new insight regarding my favorite pork product.
This tool is a great idea, if for no other reason it (combined with other recent events) may make CCP actually reexamine its game client code and what gets exposed or is exposable.
My crystal and tinfoil ball are telling me the ability for this application to gather the data it uses will either get nerfed, or, CCP will open the client up to visual layout/data organization mods.
However, which do you think is more likely to happen here? /rhetorical
At least I have chicken |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 16:45:00 -
[168]
Incidentally, adding in-game alert sounds to Local would be the simplest job in the world. CCP could implement this "important intel gathering tool", integrated in to the EVE client, with almost no work.
So why don't they? Laziness? Didn't think of it?
Maybe - just maybe - they didn't put this in to the game because they do not think it'd be good for the game. Maybe they think (well, no maybe about it, it's been discussed by the Devs plenty) that Local is already an extremely powerful intel tool, and that it does not need it's functionality boosted.
And maybe if the Devs don't think it's a good idea, then it isn't a good idea. Maybe BACON needs killing before it digs itself in too deep and forces CCP to make a policy change, as bookmark instas did.
TBH, I eagerly await a more in-depth Dev response to this and other questions, if and when they're due... ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 16:54:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Soporo on 20/04/2008 16:55:09 Ug, the insane amount of meta-gaming in EVE is un**ckingbelievable.
I'm no Pirate or roaming Nannophagger, but this is just wrong.
A program that makes it easier to avoid a fight? That provides intel effortlessly, thus bypassing the need for an Intel channel and other players?
Bahahahaha CCP will end up nukeing this, eventually.
Also this...
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Lisento Slaven What else can a player monitor through the logserver?
Question of the year.
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Aiolos Caci
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 16:59:00 -
[170]
You Dear Sir win the internet medal of the year for the most unnecessary, lame, macro-enabling ghey, taliban-sponsored addy EVE has seen in 2008. Congratulations, let those macro miners, macro-ratters, and macro-whatever-else-they-can-do-afk do it with a peace of mind. Truly a great approach to the game that you're supposedly playing and paying attention to.
|
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Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:01:00 -
[171]
TBH I don't understand why this hasn't been declared an exploit already. It is only slightly less game-breaking than macro-mining software, and it will totally kill roaming gang piracy if everyone starts using it. There have been several threads already made pointing out all the implications this tool has on the game such as real-time maps of hostiles in entire regions. CCP just stop this now, please, before it gets out of control. ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors! |
jongalt
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:02:00 -
[172]
LOL.
by the reactions in this thread, youd think elvis thrusted his pelvis for the first time.
-jg.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:06:00 -
[173]
yet more reason why local needs to go. ...
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The Herrick
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:22:00 -
[174]
This sort of thing is getting out of hand.
Originally by: Tania Russ
Those of us who actually build stuff and accomplish something worthwhile in Eve, as opposed to pirates, who basically don't accomplish anything but stealing other people's stuff. |
Elise Randolph
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:23:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Elise Randolph on 20/04/2008 17:23:28 PROTIP: The smart farmers - the ones who manage multiple accounts - have very probably been using this **** for years. Anybody who has lived in 0.0 and seen the Ravens piloted by "SwindWater8657"* know what I'm talking about. Thank you for making this cluster**** so ridiculously high profile that CCP needs to react and fix their code so this can't be done anymore.
This program doesn't really DO anything or affect gameplay that much, sure the truly stupid people dying may diminish a little bit, but anyone with half a brain responds to local. Siigari said that he was ice mining in low sec and saw local go up, recognized it, and consciously decided not to move, but if he heard a ping or some alarm that he would have. That's utter bull**** and you know it. What this tool does do is help the real cancer of EVE, and that is isk farmers and macro miners. So thanks, BACON-makers, for making everyone realize that this exists.
tl;dr: I WAS SAVING THAT BACON
*Edit: Apologies to SwindWater8657 if you exist and you aren't an isk farmer.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:26:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Koro Kar'Amarr Remove BACON Remove Local
Constellation is local enough.
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk i'm not a very good gambler
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Cesar Malari
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:29:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Hai and tanks for the porduct. I am loking at bacon for educasiomal use and I can't donwload the src for 1.0.0.2. I thikn the link is damiged. Pls fix, tansk. Keep up the gut work and ignore the bad kritics.
Sorry about that -- in the hurry to patch up and get 1.0.0.2 out the door, I forgot to grab the source and move it over. The source for 1.0.0.2 is there now. Guess it shows why I shouldn't be allowed to touch the website at that hour of the morning. |
Xerith
Gallente AnTi.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:31:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Koro Kar'Amarr Remove BACON Remove Local
Constellation is local enough.
Really wish this would happen, but I doubt it. Would make the game way more interesting if they did. |
Vincent S
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:32:00 -
[179]
I hope this gets banned instantly and you too for releasing it! |
Iva Soreass
Personal Vendetta
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:35:00 -
[180]
So this is how hydra allways managed to dock up in a instance when we came roaming, damn i hope this get stopped by ccp. |
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:38:00 -
[181]
oh... oh my...
the tears, the rage
I wont have to be fed for months
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:39:00 -
[182]
So its increasingly clear that this kind of tool is not new but is being used by alliances and macroers all over eve. So why the big outcry now? Are all you protesters using tools like this already and don't want the 'general population' to get their hands on it? or is it just a case of out of sight, out of mind - now you can see it you are thinking about it?
I am not convinced this is the game killer it is being portrayed as - or will even hamper pirates too much. If people can't even be arsed following rules to save themselves from danger - why on earth would they go to all the trouble of installing some software. And as far as I can tell the alliances are all up to this type of thing anyway - and even if they are not a bet some poor foot soliders are doing the job of this tool over teamspeak
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Azrial Toshiba
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:40:00 -
[183]
I like it, thanks. Ill use this forever. Now i am going to go find a quiet low sec belt and mine away waiting for the tone to tell me to dock.
This helps those of us suffering with blindness. Now i wont get poped just because i cant see local like everyone else.
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Elise Randolph
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:43:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Vincent S I hope this gets banned instantly and you too for releasing it!
I hope your main gets banned for being an idiot on the forums tbh.
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Anne Smith
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:43:00 -
[185]
So, this is a program that mimics looking at local? I don't see how that's broken then, since all one needs to do is look at local to do exactly the same thing the program does. It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
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Trathen
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:54:00 -
[186]
A haiku:
Bacon looks at logs It does nothing new with EvE Stop being emo
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Allard Blackheart
Gallente Personal Vendetta
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:55:00 -
[187]
reported as a breach of the eula for offering a CHEAT to play without risk for macro miners and isk farmers in 0.0 lowsec and high sec sig starts here
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Evil Edna
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 17:57:00 -
[188]
this farmer frendly crap is whack
sort it out ccp
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Alexis Corban
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:05:00 -
[189]
It's funny how a lot of BACONs critics are those that fly around in small nano-gangs looking to gank, i mean engage in PvP, miners and ratters all the while cloaking or logging whenever some resistance shows up.
Besides, BACON is nothing new to Eve. Other people have used similar programs and kept it a secret to make sure that only they have the advantage. Now, with BACON, everyone has access to a EULA compliant program.
In before the response: It's funny how a lot of BACONs proponents are those that rat or mine and dock up or log off before my l33t nanoship shows off how great I am at pvp by beating the snot out of them. |
Wasted Mind
Gallente Syntech Research and Development
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:11:00 -
[190]
Dunno if i like the idea of this being used or not. Though i will give the guy who made it props on it being an excellent program none the less and i am sure alot of work went into it. At anyrate imo the worse thing ccp could do at this point it to ban it. Simply because at this stage lots of ppl already have it on their computer and thus ppl who already have it will use it anyway.
I see this program as a handy tool, i will still watch local but i guess on nights of hard drinking i have something to alert me more when an enemy enters a system and not having to rely on blurred vision as much. Eitherway i can't say that i see this as a huge game breaking tool simply because everyone can have it. It's a lazy mans alarm clock esentially.
|
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Karl Sieger
Sieger Trade and Heavy Logistics
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:15:00 -
[191]
Go ahead and macromize EvE-Online.
Fools.
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:18:00 -
[192]
This is the worst tool ever created.
Trust Hydra TBH. --------------------- Nox Eternus is Recruiting, contact me or Sgt Shazz ingame for info. |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:25:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 20/04/2008 18:24:54
Terrible idea.
War Diary : Operation Terminus Est
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Jalmari Huitsikko
Caldari Karjala Inc. Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:28:00 -
[194]
Why doesn't EVE user interface already do this by itself?
Hey lets all get killed because UI doesn't tell us even simpliest things like enemy coming near us.
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Alexis Corban
The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:34:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Jalmari Huitsikko Why doesn't EVE user interface already do this by itself?
Hey lets all get killed because UI doesn't tell us even simpliest things like enemy coming near us.
IIRC, it used to not even have the little red minus signs on hostiles in local. It took someone developing a means of putting that there before CCP decided to put it in for everyone.
Perhaps that'll be the next step for BACON.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:34:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 20/04/2008 18:34:56
Originally by: Jalmari Huitsikko Why doesn't EVE user interface already do this by itself?
Hey lets all get killed because UI doesn't tell us even simpliest things like enemy coming near us.
Because local channel's all-seeing eye gives you instant updates, at infinite range.
Now if there was a reduced intel gathering via local channel, then use automated 'beeps' and 'boops' when something is within X million Km of you would work, and would fit nicely with the immersion. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:39:00 -
[197]
Quote: Thank you for making this cluster**** so ridiculously high profile that CCP needs to react and fix their code so this can't be done anymore.
On second thought...yeah, what he said.
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Pesadel0
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:45:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Originally by: Koro Kar'Amarr Remove BACON Remove Local
Constellation is local enough.
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Nemetes
Minmatar Fermi Industrial Associates
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:49:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 20/04/2008 18:36:39
Because local channel's all-seeing eye gives you instant updates, at infinite range, effectively.
Now if there was reduced intel gathering via local channel, having automated 'beeps' and 'boops' when something is within X million Km of you would work, and would fit nicely with the immersion.
This is what I have been thinking would be nice too, I think it would be a great idea. Remove local, and maybe have a skill (or just a fixed amount of distance) that alerts the player when a ship is detected in the "bubble" of distance. Like skill @ lvl 1 would be 1AU "sphere of warning" around the player...up to 5 AUs or something like that. Or maybe lvls increase by a percentage up to a max distance. Seems like this could be a way to make both sides of the issue happy though maybe there is something I am overlooking.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:51:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Hey lets all get killed because UI doesn't tell us even simpliest things like enemy coming near us.
Because local channel's all-seeing eye gives you instant updates, at infinite range.
Now if there was a reduced intel gathering via local channel, then use automated 'beeps' and 'boops' when something is within X million Km of you would work, and would fit nicely with the immersion.
See thats actually a neat idea, tying audio output to proximity in the long range scanner combined with removing local as an intel tool would be excellent. How atmospheric is that? Searching a system with unknown numbers of hostiles waiting for the "ping" to come from certain classes of ship in your proximity. Thats really dramatic and has a lovely sense of excitement and tension about it. Combine it with classes of ship that get scanner bonuses and modules and skills to focus and improve the functionality and you get a role for passive detection in space warfare and group "sonar operator" style roles.
*Sound obviously have a visual element as well (flashing Proximity Warning on screen) that kind of thing.
Only problem I foresee is that it would make it too easy for covert recons to find and kill ratters and miners without those guys having a warning of proximity - that becomes a balance issue though and a solution can surely be found with minds on the subject. Perhaps a special type of active module that can detect general cloak signature on a reduced proximity with no directional or fine tuning aspect or specifics on the ship having the cloak. "spacial distortion detected".
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
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Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:54:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Alexis Corban
Originally by: Jalmari Huitsikko Why doesn't EVE user interface already do this by itself?
Hey lets all get killed because UI doesn't tell us even simpliest things like enemy coming near us.
IIRC, it used to not even have the little red minus signs on hostiles in local. It took someone developing a means of putting that there before CCP decided to put it in for everyone.
Perhaps that'll be the next step for BACON.
You sir are a failure on multiple levels. It is bad enough that local tells everyone that entered a system but wanting this piece of crap to be part of eve is the worst possible idea ever.
As current mechanics stand any enemies have plenty of time to dock up as soon as you do enter the system via local chat updates. That required an ounce of intellect, now you can just dock when a sound plays, you don't even need to be paying attention. Great.
Even better is now the farmers/bots can add to their macros if a certain sound plays to CTRL-Q instantly. Even better. Thank you for helping to destroy Eve. --------------------- Nox Eternus is Recruiting, contact me or Sgt Shazz ingame for info. |
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 18:54:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Nemetes
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 20/04/2008 18:36:39
Because local channel's all-seeing eye gives you instant updates, at infinite range, effectively.
Now if there was reduced intel gathering via local channel, having automated 'beeps' and 'boops' when something is within X million Km of you would work, and would fit nicely with the immersion.
This is what I have been thinking would be nice too, I think it would be a great idea. Remove local, etc etc
You don't ever mine do you...if they did this it would be the death knell of solo and duo mining, and would encourage blobbing, even more.
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Shadow Joy
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:00:00 -
[203]
BACON is a horrible idea that borders on being an exploit.
I will give you props for trying to do this through proper channels, but you have opened a can of epic fail by not thinking about what this means for EVE as a whole.
I can only hope that BACON becomes the next Immune Empire, and that CCP is forced to close the gaping hole you based your code on.
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KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:05:00 -
[204]
Come on people! Let's keep the whining coming! The entertainment value of this thread is epic.
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Blood Daemon
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:10:00 -
[205]
Originally by: KapnKaboom Come on people! Let's keep the whining coming! The entertainment value of this thread is epic.
QFT!!! ------------------
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sesanti
Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:11:00 -
[206]
My question is, what would happen if anyone open a thread saying
"Please, CCP, alter the game to make it so that we have a built-in alarm telling us which kind of target enters the system."
There have been such threads in the past, I remember reading a couple during my stay in this game! No wonder, the poster got flamed to death and beyond!
What is the difference of obtaining this very same functionality thru a 3rd-party app? It is exactly the same!
So, in case I am not being clear, I am all against it! _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster -
<I am a guy... don't mind the portrait> |
doctorstupid2
Blood Corsair's Blood Blind
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:11:00 -
[207]
Never be surprised again? My livelihood in eve as a solo pilot, unfortunately, largely relies on the element of surprise.
At first I was like oh wow cool, now people can't blob me quite so easy. Then I realized everywhere I go I'll be accompanied by an audible warning. That fails. Hard.
If keeping things like this out of EVE mean killing my beloved local channel, then I would chose the lesser of two evils and support a major nerf to local chat. In the past I've been very outspoken in support of local as it is, as it makes it near impossible for blobbers to conceal their numbers effectively. This is simply too far.
Nostalgia | Deadspace2 | Deadspace |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:12:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Hey lets all get killed because UI doesn't tell us even simpliest things like enemy coming near us.
Because local channel's all-seeing eye gives you instant updates, at infinite range.
Now if there was a reduced intel gathering via local channel, then use automated 'beeps' and 'boops' when something is within X million Km of you would work, and would fit nicely with the immersion.
See thats actually a neat idea, tying audio output to proximity in the long range scanner combined with removing local as an intel tool would be excellent. How atmospheric is that? Searching a system with unknown numbers of hostiles waiting for the "ping" to come from certain classes of ship in your proximity. Thats really dramatic and has a lovely sense of excitement and tension about it. Combine it with classes of ship that get scanner bonuses and modules and skills to focus and improve the functionality and you get a role for passive detection in space warfare and group "sonar operator" style roles.
*Sound obviously have a visual element as well (flashing Proximity Warning on screen) that kind of thing.
Only problem I foresee is that it would make it too easy for covert recons to find and kill ratters and miners without those guys having a warning of proximity - that becomes a balance issue though and a solution can surely be found with minds on the subject. Perhaps a special type of active module that can detect general cloak signature on a reduced proximity with no directional or fine tuning aspect or specifics on the ship having the cloak. "spacial distortion detected".
Well, perhaps this current 'BACON' furore will focus minds at CCP to looking into new ideas whilst improving immersion. You could even tie this sort of thing into the whiz-bang solar system map, plotting nearby ætracksÆ if you will. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Vanessa Vale
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:21:00 -
[209]
Eve, sinking to new lows.
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
Eternal Hatred
Amarr Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:22:00 -
[210]
So, now we will see EVE-Online Mod section @ curse.com? _________________
It's great being an Amarr, isn't it??? :( |
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:25:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Esmenet If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game.
_____________________________________________________________________________
|
Trathen
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:26:00 -
[212]
Another haiku:
This was always done Bacon just made it public Figure it out fool
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Nemetes
Minmatar Fermi Industrial Associates
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:32:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Soporo
You don't ever mine do you...if they did this it would be the death knell of solo and duo mining, and would encourage blobbing, even more.
Hmm well as soon as the alarm went off (if the skill were trained up enough) they could also possibly have time to warp out--as long as they were paying attention, were aligned and warped at the exact moment the alarm went off.
But the other point is that if one is mining/ratting in low or no sec they cannot and should not be safe and make it out (as countless people have said before me), but IMO this would still give them a chance to get out. It would be a way however to get rid of the all-seeing local as Gabriel put it, but still keep a way for miners/ratters to have a decent chance of making it out alive (though I do agree that in lower sec it should not be guaranteed for people to make it out...just a chance though.)
This way too one wouldn't have to keep spamming the scanner to see if an enemy ship is closing in, and it would prevent people from immediately warping out at first sight of another person in local.
|
Vanessa Vale
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:33:00 -
[214]
Originally by: DroneBay Diva
Originally by: Esmenet If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game.
They apparently already said that the way this tool works was legal, so what are they going to say now? That their statements are worthless when they see something done based on those statements that they don't like?
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
Corwain
Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:36:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale They apparently already said that the way this tool works was legal, so what are they going to say now? That their statements are worthless when they see something done based on those statements that they don't like?
They said that the way it works is not EULA breaking, they didn't say they approve, or disapprove of what the program actually does. Yet. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:40:00 -
[216]
While at first this is a cool toy and invaluable to every carebear/alliance that needs to have 10+ channels for intel, this is the toy that "bumps" in the night.
It goes against absolutly every-aspect of this game. It blows solo/small gang PvP even further into the stone age, it enhances one of the already most-broken parts of the game (Local) and its sitting right on the fine line between third-party macro/hack and mod/addon. And either way it does NOT have a place in eve -
ò Because hacks and macro's are against the EULA. And ò CCP has stated numerous times EVE WILL NOT Follow the world of modcraft route.
This little snipit should be added to the EULA tbh
"You may not use any other third party program in conjunction with the eve online client that provides an in-game real-time advantage no matter how they acquire this data"
Or something along the lines, this is a VERY unneeded feat in eve, its not welcome, its not desired, it is in fact, rejected by most of the community, and even worse, its taking meta-gaming a whole league further.
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D'sania
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:40:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Trathen Another haiku: This was always done Bacon just made it public Figure it out fool
I only interesting in one thing, how much of non-public utilities of that sort (i.e. working on(or after) borders of EULA) is exist non-publically. BACON authors had at least courage to directly ask about EULA-compatibility and correct code per CCP advise (and released sources so that _they_ said about inner workings of BACON can be validated).
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D'sania
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 19:51:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Blane Xero
This little snipit should be added to the EULA tbh
"You may not use any other third party program in conjunction with the eve online client that provides an in-game real-time advantage no matter how they acquire this data"
Or something along the lines, this is a VERY unneeded feat in eve, its not welcome, its not desired, it is in fact, rejected by most of the community, and even worse, its taking meta-gaming a whole league further.
If it's rejected by most of community why there are arleady 8 pages about it -:) And your suggested EULA addition is potentiall dangerous (may be it's need to be rephrased at least) For example RivaTuner(basically, video card overclock tool) will be something that provide 'in-game real-time advantage' (in form of more fps). And that about TeamSpeak/Ventrilo Overlays,are they allowed, they provide some advantage after all?What about FRAPS?That about TeamSpeak(which IS advantage, universally used one) itself -:)?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:55:00 -
[219]
Originally by: D'sania
Originally by: Blane Xero
This little snipit should be added to the EULA tbh
"You may not use any other third party program in conjunction with the eve online client that provides an in-game real-time advantage no matter how they acquire this data"
Or something along the lines, this is a VERY unneeded feat in eve, its not welcome, its not desired, it is in fact, rejected by most of the community, and even worse, its taking meta-gaming a whole league further.
If it's rejected by most of community why there are arleady 8 pages about it -:) And your suggested EULA addition is potentiall dangerous (may be it's need to be rephrased at least) For example RivaTuner(basically, video card overclock tool) will be something that provide 'in-game real-time advantage' (in form of more fps). And that about TeamSpeak/Ventrilo Overlays,are they allowed, they provide some advantage after all?What about FRAPS?That about TeamSpeak(which IS advantage, universally used one) itself -:)?
None of those are eve-specific, also, most of these 8 pages are people protesting about it, most of the front and second page of GD are against it, hell even a show of CSM candidates are against it (Find the thread).
Yes, of course it would have to be rephrased, but really your nitpicking now
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Recluse Viramor
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:58:00 -
[220]
Everything the CCP devs have said and stood up for in the past is in direct contradiction to the enhancements to EVE this program brings. This program is an EXPLOIT by the very definition of what an exploit is.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:59:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Blane Xero Or something along the lines, this is a VERY unneeded feat in eve, its not welcome, its not desired, it is in fact, rejected by most of the community, and even worse, its taking meta-gaming a whole league further.
While I'm sure it is comforting for many that have posted to think that they are "most" of the community they are all, by far, the minority of the community. So please, I enjoy your opinion but lets keep it within the realm of reality and not go flying off into hubris.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:02:00 -
[222]
the more I hear the complaints from the people on here and the way they are complaining (ie. "this breaks eve because I can't kill anyone") - the more I get the impression you all have tools like this anyway and just don't want those of us who sneak out of empire down into lowsec to get our hands on it as well
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:02:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Alexis Corban It's funny how a lot of BACONs critics are those that fly around in small nano-gangs looking to gank, i mean engage in PvP, miners and ratters all the while cloaking or logging whenever some resistance shows up.
Well, I'll think to be quite honest with you its a general opinion from a lot of thoughtful eve players who are expressing their opposition to the use of log-server output in this way. This stuff is against the spirit of eve, its encouraging an afk gamestyle and can directly encourage the additional development of even nastier third party tools and functionality. Automatic logouts when people come into system would be a terrible thing and many sensible players can agree on this.
This really isn't a "pvp'er vs carebear" thing. Its a thoughtful and balanced player vs abuse of game resources thing. You don't do yourself any favors to market this as an answer to "gankers". Eve already has plenty of functionality to allow lone players to exist in hostile space and protect themselves from non consensual aggression. Cloaks and safe-spots and basic environmental awareness serve perfectly well - we really don't need 3rd party apps reading log-server outputs and automating an aspect of eve combat information in this way.
Quote: Besides, BACON is nothing new to Eve. Other people have used similar programs and kept it a secret to make sure that only they have the advantage. Now, with BACON, everyone has access to a EULA compliant program.
Well I tell you, if this is the case then I'd strongly advocate CCP taking a firm position and ruling existing use of this technology in breach of the EULA and ordering a cease and desist. I can see your argument that in allowing everyone to break the spirit of eve in this fashion you bring attention to alleged private abuses by organizations and alliances - but, that doesn't really justify the release and encouragement of this program for general use. If anyone had evidence of existing eve-alliances doing this stuff I think they should have contacted GM's and petitioned the potential abuse and left it to CCP to judge the situation.
Quote: In before the response: It's funny how a lot of BACONs proponents are those that rat or mine and dock up or log off before my l33t nanoship shows off how great I am at pvp by beating the snot out of them.
Not helpful. This isn't a partisan player-choice debate. I'm the Exec of an Alliance in game that maintains strict NRDS and only goes out to fight people that shoot us first. We have absolutely no interest in "ganking" non-combatants or "innocents" - we want to fight PVP'ers and I can tell you from this perspective - the functionality made possible by using the log-server output in this way is horrible for the nature of eve as an open pvp game and that will ultimately hurt everyone if its not addressed.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Tai Paktu
Mortis Incarnatus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:04:00 -
[224]
Well, when I went to sleep last night I thought this was over with. Apparently I was wrong. This is worse than any hangover I've woken up to. I stated my opinion pretty clearly in one of the other anti-BACON threads that didn't get locked. Basically,
Originally by: Tai Paktu in the words of a Dev "EvE is not meant to seem like a relentless, uncaring, harsh universe. It is one." I respect that you don't want to PvP and want to keep your pixelated spaceship. That's cool. Stay docked. But you also need to respect the fact that I want to destroy your pixels. We're playing in a sandbox here and all play styles are "permitted" so long as they don't violate the EULA or the ToS
While this tool may not be a macro in the way it gains info from the client, it's bloody close in that it automates a computer side response to an in-game event. Someone enters local nd the server tells your client to show him there, your computer makes a noise. Damn, that's meta. Maybe that's a wider issue with third parties and to be honest, I wouldn't really care if many third party applications got nerfed. The arguments can come in from the pro-BACON camp that EFT, QuickFit, those moon mining/POS apps, Ombey's maps and even the EvE-O forums or MSN when used for EvE related talk is meta and I'd agree to an extent on some of them.
That having been said, don't confuse something like EvE Files with BACON the way some in this thread have. Chribba is providing an out of game tool that does not modify the player experience or make anything happen with regards to EvE while playing. BACON fundamentally allows for a shift in game-play and opens the door to a million other brutal apps and mods, I'd refer to Zakma's thread but it's locked. However, it makes a good point that this is a launch pad application for an insane number of macros and other tools that literally break the game.
I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here too, no third party application should ever fundamentally change the game balance as set by the developers. BACON does that. It takes EvE from being an immersed and, hopefully, at keyboard experience and turns it into a sham. Bye low sec. Bye deep 0.0 roaming. Techzer already said it, run dual clients with your Hulk in a dead end low sec and a BACON'd alt scout in the entry system. Gunshot and you ctrl+q and keep browsing forums or watching your movie.I understand that mining is mind-numbingly boring, I know, I did it for my first 4 or 5 months in game. And I know it's nice to do something else while your lasers run. And you can. In high sec in an NPC corp. That's the trade-off if you care about your pixels.
In this thread, carebear revenge is strong. "lolol, teh grieferz tears are delici0s. adapt or die n00b!!11" And we will, we wouldn't still be playing and doing what we do if we were unable to adapt. I'll be here as long as I have money to pay for my subscription and until the servers go down, trying to get one last good fight before that timer runs down. We'll still get good fights from those who offer them and we'll still catch idiots who don't pay attention, that I can promise you.
You'll be hearing me in local.
(Looking forward to an official CCP response to this app) ______
http://eve-files.com/sig/TaiPaktu/sig3.PNG |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:10:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Blane Xero Or something along the lines, this is a VERY unneeded feat in eve, its not welcome, its not desired, it is in fact, rejected by most of the community, and even worse, its taking meta-gaming a whole league further.
While I'm sure it is comforting for many that have posted to think that they are "most" of the community they are all, by far, the minority of the community. So please, I enjoy your opinion but lets keep it within the realm of reality and not go flying off into hubris.
Oh i'm sorry, step on your toes did i?
As is said in the post directly above yours, This "tool" i'll call it goes against everything the dev's have worked for in eve, a PvP risk-high adrenaline rush, with this mod all of that is pretty much gone (I'll throw in that pretty much just to sa***uard myself against nit-pickers.) When your playing EvE Thats exactly what you should be doing, PLAYING, not sitting afk risk free waiting for the sound of a "beep" or a "click" to tell you to alt tab and hit that all-important cloaking device.
Before- Cloak + Local = People who pay attention = safish. After- Cloak + Local + This = people not paying attention, but who have this "tool" = safish.
Also, to counter this whole "But its already been happening just not publically" arguement, Murders happen every day, just mostly not publicaly, that doesnt make it right, because thats what this mod would do to the remaining pvp life in lowsec, Murder it.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:11:00 -
[226]
I've been thinking about this since I first saw the BACON threads.
I got to thinking, in Star Trek doesn't the computer almost always flash red alert when an enemy is near (at least the older ones).
Similarly didn't the Falcon in A New Hope give off a warning signal when the TIE/rc was in the Alderaan belt with it?
I don't play with sound on to try to limit lag some but to me it seems reasonable. Its much like I think local is reasonable because ships would have transponders.
If we assume that it is reasonable then, we need to provide some sort of counter to it in game a new mod or rig. I think rig would be best, since they can't be easily swapped out.
The rig would garble the transponder code of the ship. (This would thus not have it report when it entered or left a system, or have it be a neutral reading. The Tech II version might even read it as a friendly ship.....though of course a quick look by the pilot and show info would quickly show it wasn't)
Anyway that's an idea, not sure how easy/hard it would be to code.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:12:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Durzel So are you saying you would be happier if the problem (implications of data provided by logServer) still existed but that apps that abused it were hidden and only available to privileged alliances? Because that's what we're dealing with, even if BACON specifically didn't exist.
In short, yes. When it's usage is only in closed circles, at least that means said usage isn't generalized and only a small fraction of the community suffer form it's effects.
Log servers aren't meant as an intelligence tool. Anything that use it as that is, by definition, an exploit. (yes, local is technically in the same case, but at least local gives advantages to both the person in system and the person entering system, and gives no info wether they are active or afk). ------------------------------------------
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:15:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Luh Windan the more I hear the complaints from the people on here and the way they are complaining (ie. "this breaks eve because I can't kill anyone") - the more I get the impression you all have tools like this anyway and just don't want those of us who sneak out of empire down into lowsec to get our hands on it as well
Also, btw, i'm a Carebear half-retired from eve (Only playing forum warfare and skill-checking atm) and even i can see the effect this would have on eve. I've played eve just over 2 years and have like 3 kills (none bigger than a destroyer, well one barge) and been killed about ~60 times, most of those times this very tool would have saved my ship.
Just because it does good doesnt mean it doesnt do bad aswell. Chocolate for example while being awesome, large amounts is bad for you
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:17:00 -
[229]
Smells like bacon, tastes like chicken
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Tai Paktu
Mortis Incarnatus
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:23:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Tai Paktu on 20/04/2008 20:24:29
Originally by: Mecinia Lua If we assume that it is reasonable then, we need to provide some sort of counter to it in game a new mod or rig. I think rig would be best, since they can't be easily swapped out.
The rig would garble the transponder code of the ship. (This would thus not have it report when it entered or left a system, or have it be a neutral reading. The Tech II version might even read it as a friendly ship.....though of course a quick look by the pilot and show info would quickly show it wasn't)
Anyway that's an idea, not sure how easy/hard it would be to code.
This issue here is that you now have CCP developing the game around a 3rd party app which absolutely breaks a game in my opinion. CCP owns the game, we just pay for the use of it. And while they're great about trying to incorporate player feedback into game design for the most part, they still own the product and have final rights to its direction. If they're just making changes based on what applications players are using, it begs the question of who is actually developing the game.
ninjaedit for fail quoting ______
http://eve-files.com/sig/TaiPaktu/sig3.PNG |
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:34:00 -
[231]
Wow, what an amazing amount of people are dissing this program, when it provides no information that isnt already available.
Bacon is an interface improvement; instead of just having local presented visually, it is now presented audiably.
CCP should either build in such features, if they like them, or remove the information from local, if they dont.
In the meantime, the 0.0ers have Bacon. And for everyone else, it is useless. There are always hostiles in local, where I play.
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Speaker Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:43:00 -
[232]
Lol, I have to admit this is the most entertaining thread ever. I don't think i've seen so many ****ers whining at the same time...ever! Grats Cesar, on a great addition to the game...:-) Seriously though, do people really think the aim is to just help farmers? What about industrial corps that are being griefed by wardecers? Why shouldn't they have some type of incoming warning? It's appears the snipers and griefers want all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
Having to watch local every second takes away alot of the social aspects of the game, not to mention the inability to talk in corp and alliance. It also interferes in the ability to multi-task, for those of us that actually have lives outside the game. It seems that most of the people posting in this thread want the game played their way, and no other....
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Antonia Frak
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:46:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Speaker Dead Lol, I have to admit this is the most entertaining thread ever. I don't think i've seen so many ****ers whining at the same time...ever! Grats Cesar, on a great addition to the game...:-) Seriously though, do people really think the aim is to just help farmers? What about industrial corps that are being griefed by wardecers? Why shouldn't they have some type of incoming warning? It's appears the snipers and griefers want all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
Having to watch local every second takes away alot of the social aspects of the game, not to mention the inability to talk in corp and alliance. It also interferes in the ability to multi-task, for those of us that actually have lives outside the game. It seems that most of the people posting in this thread want the game played their way, and no other....
Fail. Dude use in-game tools to counter foes. This is too much carebearing for today, I'm off : /
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:48:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Vanessa Vale on 20/04/2008 20:48:59
Originally by: Koala Bare
after which they took out a few other ones of the carebears who tried to "stand up".
If they try to "stand up" they aren't carebears. They just suck
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:49:00 -
[235]
Originally by: EULA Section 7 - Conduct
A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
Nice double standards there, CCP.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
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Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:50:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Karentaki on 20/04/2008 20:53:25 Edited by: Karentaki on 20/04/2008 20:53:04
Originally by: Speaker Dead Lol, I have to admit this is the most entertaining thread ever. I don't think i've seen so many ****ers whining at the same time...ever! Grats Cesar, on a great addition to the game...:-) Seriously though, do people really think the aim is to just help farmers? What about industrial corps that are being griefed by wardecers? Why shouldn't they have some type of incoming warning? It's appears the snipers and griefers want all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
Having to watch local every second takes away alot of the social aspects of the game, not to mention the inability to talk in corp and alliance. It also interferes in the ability to multi-task, for those of us that actually have lives outside the game. It seems that most of the people posting in this thread want the game played their way, and no other....
Fine - you can have this 'tool' the help protect you poor AFK carebears who just want to socialise (you can separate local from the other windows you know), but only if use 'griefers' get something in return:
I propose that another tool should be made that plays a sound alerting you to the presence of any miners in local (only jetcan miners in highsec), any mission runners in faction fitted ships, and any ships using autopilot. This would allow us pirates to spend less time playing the game and more time socalising with our corp-mates, while still being able to lay the smack-down upon those who are foolish or worth ganking.
Thankyou. ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors! |
Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:54:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Verone
Nice double standards there, CCP.
The interface through which this works is a CCP provided plain text ASCII file on your hard drive. Thats probably why there isn't a blanket "Its a EULA violation" statement from CCP.
I'm really curious how CCP will fix this, or if they will at all... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:56:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Tai Paktu
Originally by: Koala Bare So, the carebears had "advance warning", died in the belts, and died when trying to stand up. I am starting to fail to see how a tool like this can make a difference if you already suck so hard that you think you need it.
Obviously this hardly applies to any of the other tools, which have been going round for ages now, and which are of a slight different focus or even more feature advanced then this Bacon. I can't say much of those. I've already uninstalled Bacon (personal opinion, the whole concept sucks imo) and I ain't gonna try anything else.
It still comes down to the human element. If you suck structurally, nothing will save you. If you log off structurally, nothing will save your alliance.
Like I said, we'll still get kills. We'll still catch idiots and afk'ers, that I can guarantee. The issues at hand are that applciations can be added on top of BACON to terminate the EvE client as soon as the sound is played which is a macro and that it essentially goes against the spirit of the game by a) using the log files for something other than logging and b) by taking the effort out of surviving in hostile space.
I agree. Thing is, such things have been around for ages, but in a much more quiet setting. There's an alliance (no, I'm not going into name and shame, this isn't CAOD, they're already leaking enough themselves tbh to figure it out) who's used a similar tool for scouts, collecting traffic info's, centralising it and updating an irc channel in real time with reports. Unless I am mistaken that is something CCP asked these Bacon guys to leave out?
There's another smaller alliance who has used a nifty tool to scout out their targets in advance, using noob and infiltrated alts, over the course of a week prior to having a go at the target. Knowing as such pretty much everything they need to know on where population is, how they move, what they fly, when they are online and active, when online and idling in station, stuff like that.
Each of these cases is something which gives information through a process which you can just as simply accomplish by using "live" humans, and not 2nd accounts and people trying to combine the wife and eve. Only differences being that it perhaps is easier to keep track of information, though I imagine people can use forums if they try to put stuff together.
CCP imo aren't facing BACON, but the myriad of tools that go round (not macro's and bots and **** like that, not referring to that ongoing battle) which tap into the client side of EVE. Not the client, but the client side, as the client as well as supporting tools like the logserver leave logs around.
Removing those tools isn't possible, as detection isn't possible, and removing the syndrome is also impossible, as the people who suck so hard that they think this stuff would help them are more then likely to move to the abhorred use of bots and macro **** either way.
A public/private encryption key mechanism to the logs might help, in all likelyness it will simply push more folks to the bot mess, which does go against the EULA, and for which there is even less means to deal with. Frankly given that there is no policy which sets limits (because there was never a need to think of it as stuff wasn't publicly visible) it strikes me that the best way for pilots to deal with it is to simply kill pilots and organisations who use the ****.
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matty01
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:27:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Exortius Amarrus
Originally by: Exortius Amarrus I never thought i'd say this.
But **** bacon.
this tbh, goddamn carebears
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Paco Tacos
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:32:00 -
[240]
What the **** is this bull****.
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:45:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Blane Xero "But its already been happening just not publically" Murders happen every day, just mostly not publicaly, that doesnt make it right, because thats what this mod would do to the remaining pvp life in lowsec, Murder it.
_____________________________________________________________________________
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Mayor Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:46:00 -
[242]
After reading all this whining from all those tough-guy pirates in this thread, I actually take pride in the words "I am a Carebear" :P
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Josh Causto
Gallente Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:49:00 -
[243]
Edited by: Josh Causto on 20/04/2008 21:48:47
Originally by: Mayor Nuisance After reading all this whining from all those tough-guy pirates in this thread, I actually take pride in the words "I am a Carebear" :P
And I take pride in saying I do not need any third party program to make my game more like Wow.
Originally by: Speed Devil
Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Everytime you fit anything other than a laser on our ships, babies die.
and when ya fit lasers on your ships nothing dies
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:54:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Speaker Dead
Seriously though, do people really think the aim is to just help farmers? What about industrial corps that are being griefed by wardecers? Why shouldn't they have some type of incoming warning? It's appears the snipers and griefers want all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
A) No, Industrial corps should NOT have advanced warning, if that warning comes from a 3rd party app. If they want to use alt scouts, well that sucks, but it's part of the game. Eve is NOT supposed to be 100% safe anywhere, which is exactly why gameplay aspects such as suicide ganking have not been nerfed. If CCP wanted people to be 'safe' and to make the game harder for 'griefers' suicide ganks would be the first thing to go, I assure you.
B) 'Griefers' (aka, people who kill others within the gameplay mechanics) do NOT want any advantages. What they want is for the other guy to also not have an unfair advantage. They want a level playing field. Bacon Eliminates that levelness. _____________________________________________________________________________
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Aurix Lexico
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:00:00 -
[245]
Edited by: Aurix Lexico on 20/04/2008 22:00:14 It has been said before, but, lame
I know me, and plenty of other people would like an official statement by CCP on this subject.
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Elise Randolph
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:02:00 -
[246]
Originally by: DroneBay Diva
Originally by: Esmenet If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game.
Can I have your stuff?
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Aurix Lexico
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:02:00 -
[247]
hey Elise, what's up?
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Mik kyo
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:03:00 -
[248]
The same people using this app will be the same people using cheats and trainers in other games... born loosers.
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:06:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Elise Randolph
Originally by: DroneBay Diva
Originally by: Esmenet If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game.
Can I have your stuff?
My stuff is spoken for I assure you. |
Kery Syander
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:30:00 -
[250]
"If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game."
this. -----
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:50:00 -
[251]
For one, it's third party software. For two, it gives users an advantage over other players. And third, it promotes AFK play, something that CCP has been trying to stamp out for FIVE YEARS.
It's not very often I say this, in fact this might be the first, but it's an absolute disgrace that CCP have even considered making this a valid game tactic.
Sort your policies out CCP, and sort out how you enforce them. The double standards are becoming increasingly annoying.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:51:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Kery Syander "If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game."
this.
__________________________________
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Agor Dirdonen
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:56:00 -
[253]
Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 20/04/2008 22:58:20
Originally by: Verone
For one, it's third party software. For two, it gives users an advantage over other players. And third, it promotes AFK play, something that CCP has been trying to stamp out for FIVE YEARS.
It's not very often I say this, in fact this might be the first, but it's an absolute disgrace that CCP have even considered making this a valid game tactic.
Sort your policies out CCP, and sort out how you enforce them. The double standards are becoming increasingly annoying.
I'm not defending BACON here but using an Excel sheet to calculate your profits for production so you know what to produce or what to invent also falls under your first two points. Heck, it might even fall under point 3 too as I'm spending more time in Excel then in Eve when I'm going for production/invention.
Same goes for Quickfit, EFT, all calculators that allow you to calculate your ods before you take any action in game.
Anyway, I'm not touching that program with even a stick. Usually the goons keep such things for themselves and now they want us all to install it on our pc's? ... for the sake of the community I'm sure...
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Gandolf
Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:02:00 -
[254]
this is a ******** thing k thx
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sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:03:00 -
[255]
Did you believe you were doing a good thing for the game when you did this? No of course you didn;t ;)
Hopefully CCP will wake up and encript the logs.
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Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:03:00 -
[256]
Logserver is a pathway to many abilities some would consider... unnatural _
Got Item? | EVE API? |
Verone
Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:06:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Agor Dirdonen
I'm not defending BACON here but using an Excel sheet to calculate your profits for production so you know what to produce or what to invent also falls under your first two points. Heck, it might even fall under point 3 too as I'm spending more time in Excel then in Eve when I'm going for production/invention.
Same goes for Quickfit, EFT, all calculators that allow you to calculate your ods before you take any action in game.
Anyway, I'm not touching that program with even a stick. Usually the goons keep such things for themselves and now they want us all to install it on our pc's? ... for the sake of the community I'm sure...
Using a spreadsheet isn't even remotely the same as using this "BACON" crap.
A spreadsheet is effectively a fancy calculator. It's also in no way physically connected to the game client, or it's runtime. It's also not monitoring the information being sent between the client and the game server.
As well as that, a spreadsheet is not a piece of third party software that's been written specifically to provide an advantage over others in game.
I fail to see an even remote resemblence between a spreadsheet full of numbers, and a piece of software that physically monitors what's going on in game in a player's environment and gives them early warnings of impending danger and changes in the status of the system they're in.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:21:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Agor Dirdonen
Anyway, I'm not touching that program with even a stick. Usually the goons keep such things for themselves and now they want us all to install it on our pc's? ... for the sake of the community I'm sure...
1. BACON is Open Source, released under the GPL. At this point, over 100 unique IPs have downloaded the source. You can verify it: we do ONLY what we say we do. 2. Gunfleet Logistics has no relationship to Goonfleet.
Originally by: sakana
Did you believe you were doing a good thing for the game when you did this? No of course you didn;t ;)
One of the many reasons that we released under the GPL was simply Gunfleet Logistics' belief that keeping tools like BACON secret is unfair to the average player. If everyone has BACON, there is no advantage to be gained.
I might also add, we specifically chose to give CCP advance notice of the deal, ask questions about EULA compliance, make CCP suggested changes to our code, and release under the GPL as a guarantee of transparency.
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sesanti
Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:22:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Agor Dirdonen
I'm not defending BACON here but using an Excel sheet to calculate your profits for production so you know what to produce or what to invent also falls under your first two points. Heck, it might even fall under point 3 too as I'm spending more time in Excel then in Eve when I'm going for production/invention.
Same goes for Quickfit, EFT, all calculators that allow you to calculate your ods before you take any action in game.
Anyway, I'm not touching that program with even a stick. Usually the goons keep such things for themselves and now they want us all to install it on our pc's? ... for the sake of the community I'm sure...
Using a spreadsheet isn't even remotely the same as using this "BACON" crap.
A spreadsheet is effectively a fancy calculator. It's also in no way physically connected to the game client, or it's runtime. It's also not monitoring the information being sent between the client and the game server.
As well as that, a spreadsheet is not a piece of third party software that's been written specifically to provide an advantage over others in game.
I fail to see an even remote resemblence between a spreadsheet full of numbers, and a piece of software that physically monitors what's going on in game in a player's environment and gives them early warnings of impending danger and changes in the status of the system they're in.
Not to mention if you use a spreadsheet or any other similar app, it's YOU who have to check the stuff ingame and dump it in your sheet, meaning you are ACTIVELY playing the game. It is NOT done by a script, while you are enjoying the latest The Simpsons episode ... _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster -
<I am a guy... don't mind the portrait> |
Sha Dar
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:22:00 -
[260]
The quicker the logs are encrypted, or the way they work altered to kill this thing, and others emulating it, the better. -
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Suboran
Gallente Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:24:00 -
[261]
hope ccp kills this tool, it does nothing for the game exept make it 'safer'
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:27:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Verone
For one, it's third party software. For two, it gives users an advantage over other players. And third, it promotes AFK play, something that CCP has been trying to stamp out for FIVE YEARS.
It's not very often I say this, in fact this might be the first, but it's an absolute disgrace that CCP have even considered making this a valid game tactic.
Sort your policies out CCP, and sort out how you enforce them. The double standards are becoming increasingly annoying.
This
Originally by: Verone Using a spreadsheet isn't even remotely the same as using this "BACON" crap.
A spreadsheet is effectively a fancy calculator. It's also in no way physically connected to the game client, or it's runtime. It's also not monitoring the information being sent between the client and the game server.
As well as that, a spreadsheet is not a piece of third party software that's been written specifically to provide an advantage over others in game.
I fail to see an even remote resemblence between a spreadsheet full of numbers, and a piece of software that physically monitors what's going on in game in a player's environment and gives them early warnings of impending danger and changes in the status of the system they're in.
And This
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Gunslinger girls
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:30:00 -
[263]
Well, i think Hydra exacly know how aim problem. If u think they are awesome, nice guys and relase this app to everybody without real aim. Then i must say "God people are really dum.". I start thinking how many alliances use similiar app for years. Goonswarm have , so i doubt RA dont have. I saw comment from Razor guy, about him having app to do this same fuction. So some people from Smash must have too. Bob, MC, others aliance dont know about this. I doubt that. Thank you Hydra for showing this. I lived in other word, where everybody have that same chance to kill, survive in this game. Lies and only lies and metagaming. So whats next? If roaming is dead then maybe Duels. Amazing. We have chance to fight like pilots in WWI \o/.
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Viqer Fell
Minmatar Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:36:00 -
[264]
To me BACON represents everything that is wrong with the meta gaming community that eve has developed.
It may not be breaking any EULA but it does go against the spirit of what EvE is about to my mind.
Losing ships is a part of what makes eve fun. It adds balance to the sense of elation you get from killing someone, it's the flip side to the adrenaline burst when you escape alive. It's part of the game and yes it can suck and it can really get to you but it's part of the experience.
Using an out of game piece of software in eve to monitor local is like using a mod in an FPS to alert you if an enemy has a gun pointing at you before he can fire so you can move. Lame.
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Luminary Mind
Gallente New Eden Treaty Organisation
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:40:00 -
[265]
Quote: It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
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Takeshi Yamato
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:44:00 -
[266]
Quote: It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
Nope. Voice comms are part of the game now.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:45:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Luminary Mind
Quote: It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
Thats just a load of bull****, teamspeak is other PEOPLE feeding intel to you, this is a PROGRAM feeding intel to you that is in REAL TIME on time every time.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:49:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Takeshi Yamato
Quote: It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
Nope. Voice comms are part of the game now.
team speak is still much more versatile and through than the current implementation of voice in eve.
And voice in eve was not always a thing that existed. So this makes it no different.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:49:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 20/04/2008 23:46:53
Originally by: Luminary Mind
Quote: It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
Thats just a load of bull****, teamspeak is other PEOPLE feeding intel to you, this is a PROGRAM feeding intel to you that is in REAL TIME on time every time.
Teamspeak at least requires SOMEONE to be paying attention.
This. Teamspeak requires TEAMWORK (gee, fancy that), whereas Bacon requires....not a whole lot, other being within hearing range of your speakers max settings. _____________________________________________________________________________
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Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2008.04.20 23:54:00 -
[270]
Add a rat aggro timer.
Make cloaks probable.
They can keep their cute little alarm.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:00:00 -
[271]
I guess the only thing i have left to say is about the name, it really couldnt be more suitable.
Bacon comes from pigs, pigs is the nickname given to fat/lazy cops, lazy is what you would have to be to use this...
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Salient Soldier
Minmatar Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:02:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Salient Soldier on 21/04/2008 00:03:10 God, this is BS.
Figures a hydra guy would come up with this.
As if loggers werent bad enough as it is.
0.0 is suppose to be about risk versus reward, but all the risk is drying up. Now, even complete idiots can survive in 0.0.
When the hell did EvE become such a carebear fest?
Local needs to go.
Hydra, quit playing eve, do us all a favor, go play some WoW. Its where you belong.
Oh, and local needs to go.
Time for CCP to show us that they're here to make a quality game that stands out from the rest, not WoW: Space Edition.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:02:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Elmicker Add a rat aggro timer.
Make cloaks probable.
They can keep their cute little alarm.
Ive been trying to hard Elmicker, but its just not getting through
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Malaan Tabfassh
The Flowing Penguins
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:15:00 -
[274]
This whole thing is one step too far
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Divi
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:19:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Divi on 21/04/2008 00:19:23 I'm not going to say this is right or wrong. I will say according to the EULA mouse and keyboard macros are legal... The Eula only states the use of a program outside the game that allows a player to gain resources, acquire in game currency at a faster than attended rate are against the EULA. That no program can sample nor modify the game code.
Now note BACON gives no advantage to an attentive person watching local. A mining macro doesn't gather materials any faster than a player actually playing the game. We all know the macro even an attended macro is considered banable. I would be cautious to use this for that reason. The other side is how it is detecting someone entering a system. If they are stream sampling that is a EULA violation. If it detects based on a cashe file that is created. I'm not sure if that would be a violation outright, but you know the one thing that BACON will do....
It will Give CCP the firepower it needs to get rid of Local chat as it has been spoken about elsewhere.
Eve is a PVP first game. Everything else supports that. BACON will not change that.
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Ravelin Eb
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:22:00 -
[276]
This is disgusting. _________
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Benco97
Gallente Exchangable Properties
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:33:00 -
[277]
Hmm.. Irrespective of legality this application advocates spending less attention on the game, Which is not a good thing. Simple as that really.
Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:34:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Ravelin Eb This is disgusting.
What he said.
It's not making Hydra any better tbh... we got a bunch of ratters the other night with a little T2 gang in Hydra space ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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jongalt
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:42:00 -
[279]
you will never know. ever.
every time your ship explodes, you will have to wonder...did they have BACON?
every kill will be tainted by the accusation that BACON was used.
the hysteria in this threadnaught is HILARIOUS.
lol. all of a sudden everybody and their two-bit alt is interested in the general "fairness" of eve-online... LOLOLOLOLOL.
ok.
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IceGuerilla
Amarr Poseidon's Wingmen
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:44:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Trathen A haiku:
Bacon looks at logs It does nothing new with EvE Stop being emo
All opinions expressed are of IceGuerilla and not of his corp/alliance. |
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:45:00 -
[281]
Well, arguements about BACON aside, there's a subtle larger issue on the table. Do we want UI mods allowed or not?
BACON could set the precedent that opens those flood gates.
And tbh, I really don't want to have to **** around with lag inducing, "can we trust it?" player hacks in order to keep up with the status quo. I still don't care for the voip progs all that much. But whatever, they're a different bird I suppose.
End of the day: Yes, it highlights missing functionality from the Eve UI, perhaps. But it sure as hell isn't worth going down the "well if that's allowed, how about this?" path it is sure to go.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:47:00 -
[282]
Originally by: jongalt you will never know. ever.
every time your ship explodes, you will have to wonder...did they have BACON?
every kill will be tainted by the accusation that BACON was used.
the hysteria in this threadnaught is HILARIOUS.
lol. all of a sudden everybody and their two-bit alt is interested in the general "fairness" of eve-online... LOLOLOLOLOL.
ok.
And it's hard to see what it is they are crying about. They just need to grow up and save the crying for the kiddies. All folks in nulsec really do is sit in a station or hide behind a POS shield all day, so it's not like BACON would change anything. With or without BACON I can still go 30 jumps out into nulsec and not find a single pilot that isn't either docked or hiding behind their POS shield.
But it is delightful to feast on all the tears in this thread. It made my weekend.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:49:00 -
[283]
Originally by: KapnKaboom And it's hard to see what it is they are crying about. They just need to grow up and save the crying for the kiddies. All folks in nulsec really do is sit in a station or hide behind a POS shield all day, so it's not like BACON would change anything. With or without BACON I can still go 30 jumps out into nulsec and not find a single pilot that isn't either docked or hiding behind their POS shield.
But it is delightful to feast on all the tears in this thread. It made my weekend.
You have bad luck my friend. I can go less than 5 jumps and find targets when in 0.0. But maybe that will be changing if this becomes a widely used program. ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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InSession
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:52:00 -
[284]
Another tool/tactic/etc. to make care bearing that much more easy (removing the risk). May as well call 0.0 Empire v.2
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:52:00 -
[285]
And people stil wonder why Local must GO? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Minuteman
Viziam
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 00:57:00 -
[286]
I'd like to discuss a couple of things that I thought relevant to this topic. Please understand that I am not trolling, baiting or being ironic.
1) I'd like to salute Cesar Malari et al for having the technical know-how to write this program. Everything else aside, I doubt most people who play EVE are that technically minded. Well done.
2) I'd like to agree with some of the pro- BACON arguments in this thread, which are very valid (it's not more different to local, people should have lives outside EVE etc)
3) My main point is this - many people in EVE like to camp gates, especially in 0.0. Camping is not only a perfectly reasonable and encouraged tactic (bubbles are largely, though not entirely in game for this purpose). We all know that speed is essential when camping - hesitate a little and your prey gets away. So, as a camper, I'd like to point out how BACON is a brilliant camping tool. I'm not being ironic or derogatory, but something like this would make the game more fun, because I won't have to look at the screen for hours on end.
Minuteman's Comic |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:13:00 -
[287]
I've said this elsewhere but it bears repeating.
This thread is headed "BACON: Never be surprised again..".
Clearly even BACON's creators recognise the alteration to game mechanics created by their program. Moreover, they celebrate it.
Vigilance is the player's responsibility.
It should not be possible to hand over this responsibility to a third-party application.
Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry ) |
jongalt
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:19:00 -
[288]
dont worry, tommy.
you will never ever know im using it.
you will have to assume everybody is using this program. even if they arent.
because you cant prove one way or the other who is innocent and who isnt.
lol. beautiful.
-jg.
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Asika Kazama
Warp Asylum.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:20:00 -
[289]
Lets start at the beginning.
Local is needed so that we know who is in a system to save everyone the time of scouting it out completely. This is the reason it still exits and will exist without other changes to the game. BACON highlights what is wrong with this system, as it is so easy to avoid PVP and results in the need to stare at a list of players in a system to get/avoid fights.
What we need is a scanner that is permanently open on the screen, has an extended range above 14AU and can detect whether a ship is being piloted (has power). The scanner itself would have to be redesigned to be more intuitive to display where said ships would be with regards to the astrological bodies within the system. So you would have a spherical/cylindrical shaped scanner with an image of the system, and a list of its findings down the side, where you could highlight an item of interest.
With this system scouts and players wouldn't do as they do currently: keep an eye on local repeatedly spamming the "scan" button, it would be real time and your clicks are free elsewhere.
The worry of covert ops and recon ships being now unstoppable (as I imagine many would argue, rightly so) could be avoided by sharing a common "unknown" signature with other astrological bodies such as clouds, low level exploration sites etc. Simply so that "unknown" didn't directly translate to cov ops/recons.
The local channel could be removed completely, or remain without the count of active players.
The problem of not knowing the diplomatic (blue/red) status of ships found on the scanner could be easily solved by adding their standings to the scan of the ship, as I imagine ships transmitting a certain identification codes if they were in space anyway (rp).
Personally this system would make the game more enjoyable as it would change the way we interact with others in space for the better.
Asika.
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Zaknussem
Caldari The Ironbreakers
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 01:20:00 -
[290]
I'm gonna go in the camp that says that this thread is so much fun because of all the whine in it. I'm also gonna put myself in the camp that approves of BACON, and commend Gunfleet Logistics for making the release of BACON public.
Let's break it down:
# The people whining the most about this program are the people who'll suffer the most from it. The gankers, the so-called "Pirates" and the gate-campers (e.g. the very same people that keep saying that Warp To Zero is the worst thing to happen to EvE). The big alliances don't care, as they've been using programs like these to stay alive, and I doubt the majority of the hi-sec population will give a toss either.
# For those in total denial, this program does not make forbidden or secret information available to the playerbase. What it does is give us an alternative to receiving the same information that is available to everyone. That it is an "easier" method of acquiring said information is irrelevant. If you think receiving intel via audible means instead of visible means is an exploit, a hack, a cheat or (and I love this bit) "against the spirit of the game", then remove/disable whatever communication program you're using to accomplish the very same thing.
# For those going on and on about "the spirit of the game", get this: The spirit of the game is Kill Or Be Killed. People will do anything and everything to both accomplish the former and prevent the latter, otherwise we wouldn't have suicide ganks, logoffskis, gatecamps, alternate characters and beneficial third-party programs, just to name a few of the gems.
# If you think CCP should ban all third-party programs that give you an "unfair out-of-game advantage", then say goodbye to EvEMon, EFT, EvEMeep, QuickFit and any other programs I haven't mentioned. Make sure you also kiss your web-browser goodbye, as there are loads of websites out there absolutely loaded with unfair out-of-game advantages, and your browser is a means to acquire and utilize those advantages. It doesn't matter whether it's an alternative intelligence-gathering program (BACON) or an alternative skill planning/management program (EvEMon), they keyword here is "alternative".
# Adapt or die. I don't know how often this has been said before, but obviously not often enough. The world as we know it (the one outside of EvE, FYI) survives by these words, why should a game (or the players of said game) not do the same? There's no point whining on a forum over BACON. It, and other programs like it, have been around for quite a while. If you did not know this, then thank Gunfleet for changing that. Then learn to live with these programs.
# By making BACON public, Gunfleet Logistics is raising awareness of some serious issues in EvE. Should third-party programs be allowed to access game data outside of the official channels (API keys) to retrieve useful information? Should in-game intel gathering be restricted to visible means only, or should we have the option of having audible means as well? Should the playerbase be allowed to "mod" the UI?
# Most of the bile, rants, whining and anger in this thread should not be aimed at the makers of BACON, but at CCP, yet few (if any) seem to do so. CCP did not ban BACON outright. They, in fact, helped make BACON EULA-compliant, which must be an approval of sorts. Also, Gunfleet Logistics worked with CCP in developing BACON, how many programs exist out there that were not?
Finally...
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Why are you guys trying to destroy EVE?
Because they can. Because it's there. Because they want to. A harsh, cold and unforgiving game like EvE will attract certain types of people. The types that do not hold anything sacred, the types that see no difference between "use" and "abuse", the types that reject the concept of "fair play". If you think I'm referring to Goonswarm by this, you're wrong. Goonswarm is only the tip of the iceberg. |
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Zaknussem
Caldari The Ironbreakers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:21:00 -
[291]
BTW, I'm not an alt for anyone associated with Gunfleet, Hydra Alliance or any other "parties of interest", save that of the EvE playerbase as a whole. |
Orb Lati
Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:34:00 -
[292]
Just a thought. But if CCP dont allow Audible signals for game events the are they not being discriminatory against Blind computer gamers
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Nhi'Khuna
Strife Mercenaries Inc. Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:36:00 -
[293]
Holy crap kids, what ar eyou complaning about? This is nothing more than a warning system... like one might conceivably have in a space ship if you were trying to dodge someone... how mnay sci fi novels or films have featured this kind of thing as part of the flavor text of the background?
Sheesh.
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Saul Reaver
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 01:54:00 -
[294]
Edited by: Saul Reaver on 21/04/2008 01:56:50
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa it breaks the spirit of the game.
Exactly my thought.
I also agree. Whats the point of playing the game when cheats like this are available?
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Salient Soldier
Minmatar Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:56:00 -
[295]
DOWN WITH LOCAL CHAT!
there should just be a player count in the scanner or something, and local should just show people who have talked.
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Mi'serei
Warp Asylum.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:08:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Zaknussem I'm a douche.
You certainly seem like a douche. kekekekeke
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spiderppig
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 02:11:00 -
[297]
i want a mod that allows me 2 warp directly to ne player in system at ne time instantly.
now we need someone thats anti bacon to program it up.
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zoltar
Caldari Perdu Opus
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:17:00 -
[298]
Originally by: spiderppig i want a mod that allows me 2 warp directly to ne player in system at ne time instantly.
now we need someone thats anti bacon to program it up.
OMG that is perfect! problem solved, we can all calm down now
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Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 02:18:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Luminary Mind
Quote: It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
VOIP is metagaming, really?
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Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:24:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Minuteman people should have lives outside EVE etc
Then log out.
If you are going to play a game, then play it. If you're going to split your focus, then accept that you're going to be hindered. I lost a Retriever because I alt-tabbed and 3 npcs spawned and killed me. Maybe we should have a Bacon-type program that tells me when I get targeted, or maybe once I'm at half shields? Maybe when i reach armor?
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:28:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Kvirie
Originally by: Luminary Mind
Quote: It's no more metagame than Teamspeak.
VOIP is metagaming, really?
I think the argument is that using VoIP outside of the game, in game is metagaming. (ie, people not playing the game can interact with those playing the game) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Alyx Alyn
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 03:36:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Kvirie
Originally by: Minuteman people should have lives outside EVE etc
Then log out.
If you are going to play a game, then play it. If you're going to split your focus, then accept that you're going to be hindered. I lost a Retriever because I alt-tabbed and 3 npcs spawned and killed me. Maybe we should have a Bacon-type program that tells me when I get targeted, or maybe once I'm at half shields? Maybe when i reach armor?
Having sound on and auto-lockbacks enabled probably would've saved you FYI.
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Altaree
Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.21 03:39:00 -
[303]
Is it just me or does it seem that most of those complaining are just upset that their personal apps just got outted? I think people are more upset that they are losing their private advantage. Good job Hydra for making this information available to more than a select few.
Blue Sky |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 03:48:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Altaree Is it just me or does it seem that most of those complaining are just upset that their personal apps just got outted? I think people are more upset that they are losing their private advantage. Good job Hydra for making this information available to more than a select few.
Well i can't speak for "most of us" cause i got my head nipped off because of that, but here's why i think it stinks.
Its a third party device designed to work within a legal loophole in the EULA, it doesn't specifically state that reading log dumps are against it (Probably because of the slight problem of it being undetectable) It is sitting on the fine line between Macro, Exploit and being an illegal tool in my eyes, and dont give me this "its not a macro" crap because in a way it is, it is scripted to read the logs and when it comes to a certain conclusion perform an action, an indefinite amount of times.
Also, it promotes people going half-afk while in "Dangerous space" because they are safe, cause the minute they hear a click its an alt-tab and a SS/cloak/logoff in whichever order you feel necessary. When all they need to do is keep an eye in local, its not hard, people have been doing it fine for the last god-knows-how-long.
But i've covered every point i have in my previous posts, i even quoted verone on a prime example of why this should be no-question no-go.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:28:00 -
[305]
Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 21/04/2008 04:29:17 funny how all the arguments against bacon are on the "well now people can avoid combat", like they couldnt already
what abotu those of us running a second client who hear the click and alt tab back to the pvper so they can LEAVE the pos bubble and blow up whoever dared infringe on my system
because clearly far too many are breaking the spirit of the game by not dying at the recieving end of my cannons while i was trading in rens on my alt
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Gigi Kent
Caldari Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:50:00 -
[306]
The only point I want to make about this is that it is essentially
making it easier for farmers to do what they do best
Heh. I'd hope this gets nuked by CCP. If it doesn't, well.....
Seriously, with this app, what's to stop people from afk mining? Nothing, you don't even need to be paying attention to eve, you only need sound. This app is giving an out of game advantage to whomever uses it and unless this app is either nuked, or posted on eve-news/login screen its another failure for CCP. No-one should have the ability to use it, and if it is going to be endorsed, everyone should at least know about it, not just those that use the forums.
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Sig do what now? |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:57:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Altaree Is it just me or does it seem that most of those complaining are just upset that their personal apps just got outted? I think people are more upset that they are losing their private advantage. Good job Hydra for making this information available to more than a select few.
I don't have one of these apps. I am posting my contempt for it because I do not like the message that it brings to the entire playerbase of EVE. That message is this:
"It is okay to have your pants down in space. Because we have something that will give you time to pull them up without you having to actually think."
It removes the entire element of using your brain from EVE; something that EVE has over every other MMO out there. EVE is not a grind (though to some it can be.) Relatively however it is incredibly diverse with much to do and the dynamic state of the game is threatened by this software.
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:05:00 -
[308]
Ban BACON.
Seriously, this app gives people a ridiculous advantage and only serves to make npc'ers/miners etc even more invincible than they already are what with local chat, cloaks and ctrl+q.
How this can be ok with CCP is completely beyond me
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Doctor Serious
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:14:00 -
[309]
this is pretty pathetic, all this complaining.
it's a program that enables people to react to a new local contact, which is something people already do.
i have known hundreds of people who have been ganked even with multiple repeated warnings, so i doubt this is gonna help anyone except people who are already smart enough to head for cover. oh, i can think of one situation where this might give an edge - people who are actively paying attention to a system with dozens or hundreds in local.
so what if people who rely on ganking easy kills out of moron ratters with groups of smaller faster ships want to quit the game? **** if that's what it takes, i call for more programs like this.
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Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:14:00 -
[310]
Looks like this app is just gonna encourage us to camp gates more. The little nosie its gonna make can't see on the other side of the gate into low sec yet. So if CCP supports this then are they supporting gatecamping blobs in low sec as well, I guess small scale low sec pvp is going the way of the dinosaur.
Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
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Atsuko Yamamoto
Caldari The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:14:00 -
[311]
Uhm, dunno why people keep dumping this on Hydra as a whole. I don't wtf bacon is, goes in the pan with the eggs far as I know.
I play the game with what tools CCP made for us, hell my vent is still down even...
Honestly I believe that this game is far better off without any kind of 3rd party mods of any kind. This kind of game really doesn't need it, leave everyone with the same tools and that will make it a even playing field.
Besides, get driven nuts if I heard an alarm every time a red was in local, I have eyes, I can see local God that thing would be even worse in low sec... ____________________________________ "MONKEY!!"-Gir |
The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:18:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Doctor Serious this is pretty pathetic, all this complaining. it's a program that enables people to react to a new local contact, which is something people already do.
Sure, except now they can do it without paying attention to the game, or even being at their computer.
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Forino Ovoli
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:23:00 -
[313]
Jeesh! Ignore the naysayers - congrats on the creativity to create a useful tool Even more so, good job on doing the right thing and staying above the board and getting CCP's approval that it was legal.
For all those complaining about it, this is not much different than two folks in a gang - one mining, the other flying cover. The two pilots are in voice chat (Teamspeak, Eve Voice, Ventrilo, etc.) Pilot B (the guard) sees an unknown or threat show up on local. He gives Pilot A (the miner) a warning over voice chat.
This tool does the same thing.
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:26:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Forino Ovoli
For all those complaining about it, this is not much different than two folks in a gang - one mining, the other flying cover. The two pilots are in voice chat (Teamspeak, Eve Voice, Ventrilo, etc.) Pilot B (the guard) sees an unknown or threat show up on local. He gives Pilot A (the miner) a warning over voice chat.
This tool does the same thing.
An automated tool taking the information directly from the game logs and playing customizable sounds for you is nowehere near the same thing as relying on the alertness of another human being.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:29:00 -
[315]
Originally by: The Economist
Originally by: Forino Ovoli
For all those complaining about it, this is not much different than two folks in a gang - one mining, the other flying cover. The two pilots are in voice chat (Teamspeak, Eve Voice, Ventrilo, etc.) Pilot B (the guard) sees an unknown or threat show up on local. He gives Pilot A (the miner) a warning over voice chat.
This tool does the same thing.
An automated tool taking the information directly from the game logs and playing customizable sounds for you is nowehere near the same thing as relying on the alertness of another human being.
Yea, human beings can use the directional scanner and look at incoming ship types as they decloak on gates and their warp vector to provide even more accurate intel saving you from having to warp out if its just one guy in a tech 1 frigate or hauler and not a force that will threaten your gang.
Frankly this is just not fair.
/sarcasm
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:36:00 -
[316]
Edited by: The Economist on 21/04/2008 05:37:14
Originally by: Goumindong
Yea, human beings can use the directional scanner and look at incoming ship types as they decloak on gates and their warp vector to provide even more accurate intel saving you from having to warp out if its just one guy in a tech 1 frigate or hauler and not a force that will threaten your gang.
Frankly this is just not fair.
/sarcasm
How cutting.
They can also make mistakes, doze off, go get coffee, watch tv, browse forums, watch a private chat/corp instead of local etc.
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Minuteman
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:39:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Kvirie
Originally by: Minuteman people should have lives outside EVE etc
Then log out.
If you are going to play a game, then play it. If you're going to split your focus, then accept that you're going to be hindered. I lost a Retriever because I alt-tabbed and 3 npcs spawned and killed me. Maybe we should have a Bacon-type program that tells me when I get targeted, or maybe once I'm at half shields? Maybe when i reach armor?
Incidentally, thank you for missing the entire point of my post.
Minuteman's Comic |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:46:00 -
[318]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/04/2008 05:47:48
Originally by: The Economist Edited by: The Economist on 21/04/2008 05:37:14
Originally by: Goumindong
Yea, human beings can use the directional scanner and look at incoming ship types as they decloak on gates and their warp vector to provide even more accurate intel saving you from having to warp out if its just one guy in a tech 1 frigate or hauler and not a force that will threaten your gang.
Frankly this is just not fair.
/sarcasm
How cutting.
They can also make mistakes, doze off, go get coffee, watch tv, browse forums, watch a private chat/corp instead of local etc.
1. Hey, i couldn't resist, we all have to have fun sometimes.
2. No, you cannot. That is clearly outside the purview of this program. If you do these things you, or your gangmates will die when a hostile comes to kill you. You have to have someone at the machine to relay the information.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Minuteman
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:47:00 -
[319]
P.S.
In Russian: Gunfleet = Goonfleet
Minuteman's Comic |
Snot U
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:00:00 -
[320]
what a laugh ... 11 pages , mainly pirates *****ing that they have lost the element of surprise , just like they ***** if someone fits warp core stabs and gets away from them.These tools are there already , being used by large alliances (but kept secret from the general populace). Now someone has come along and said "here , use this" and all the griefers cry ..... i will probably never use BACON myself but i commend the guys that developed it , but i will say to all those who claim they will quit over this " GO , YOU WONT BE MISSED "
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:23:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Forino Ovoli
For all those complaining about it, this is not much different than two folks in a gang - one mining, the other flying cover. The two pilots are in voice chat (Teamspeak, Eve Voice, Ventrilo, etc.) Pilot B (the guard) sees an unknown or threat show up on local. He gives Pilot A (the miner) a warning over voice chat.
This tool does the same thing.
Sorry, thought we were all playing a MULTIplayer online game.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:27:00 -
[322]
The other assumption that I find astounding is that most people seem to think that now this is available everyone is going AFK. Now I appreciate miners already do that but who are these hoards of people. If I go lowsec ratting (one time I imagine this program could be useful in the things I do -not that I personally would use it) why the f*ck would I suddenly go afk?
Are people playing this game so desperate to get away from their keyboards and do something else? and why are they playing the game anyway in that case.
So perhaps I am missing something? The only thing I can see this doing is allowing miners to go further into lowsec. But you can't be worried about that because you are looking for adrenalin rushes and fights right? I get the impression that 0.0 alliances do spend a lot of time waiting around - but you guys have scouts and stuff like that right?
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Alrich
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:27:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Snot U what a laugh ... 11 pages , mainly pirates *****ing that they have lost the element of surprise , just like they ***** if someone fits warp core stabs and gets away from them.These tools are there already , being used by large alliances (but kept secret from the general populace). Now someone has come along and said "here , use this" and all the griefers cry ..... i will probably never use BACON myself but i commend the guys that developed it , but i will say to all those who claim they will quit over this " GO , YOU WONT BE MISSED "
As a carebear, i prefer beeing ganked at a belt. this tool will only force all the gankers and pirates to stop roaming and go gate hugging instead... and thus killing me when i cant fight back or run for cover in a fun way.
if this tool instead warned me of gatecamps, and checked all the info from the eve-map and such things... but then i can already do that myself...
this was a really good way to anounce the program but it shouldnt be legal...
CCP, please do something to make programs like this impossible!!
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:34:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Alrich As a carebear, i prefer beeing ganked at a belt.{snip} CCP, please do something to make programs like this impossible!!
Is this a submission for the show " When Pirates Alt Troll"? Work harder, it might not fail so hard if you do.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:39:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Luh Windan The other assumption that I find astounding is that most people seem to think that now this is available everyone is going AFK. Now I appreciate miners already do that but who are these hoards of people. If I go lowsec ratting (one time I imagine this program could be useful in the things I do -not that I personally would use it) why the f*ck would I suddenly go afk?
Are people playing this game so desperate to get away from their keyboards and do something else? and why are they playing the game anyway in that case.
So perhaps I am missing something? The only thing I can see this doing is allowing miners to go further into lowsec. But you can't be worried about that because you are looking for adrenalin rushes and fights right? I get the impression that 0.0 alliances do spend a lot of time waiting around - but you guys have scouts and stuff like that right?
Hydra scouts suck, we got quite a few kills on our last couple trips through their space. So it makes sense they would develop a tool like this tbh.
This encourages more gate camping, which I have had more than enough of doing (I've got plenty of kills from sitting on a gate, and I'm not going to lie about it). But this program takes away more of the element of surprise you have while roaming, cuts it down to near zero chance that the guy will be not paying attention, unless he's at a belt at the same planet as the gate and he pops up on scanner directly in front of you.
Yay for more gate-camping, guess I'll sit back and wait for the gate-camping whine threads that are bound to come back with a vengeance if this becomes widely used. ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:43:00 -
[326]
Edited by: techzer0 on 21/04/2008 06:43:23
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Alrich As a carebear, i prefer beeing ganked at a belt.{snip} CCP, please do something to make programs like this impossible!!
Is this a submission for the show " When Pirates Alt Troll"? Work harder, it might not fail so hard if you do.
I prefer being ganked at a belt also tbh. My last 0.0 loss was at a belt because I forgot to safe up before tabbing over to my Jita alt. And you know what, what was my fault and I have no problem with losing that ship.
If I had this program I wouldn't have died, but do I care about that? The 15 minute fight between my passive drake and an Arazu/Curse was well worth the time it took even if I was getting a little bored with their recalling drones at the end of it.
Does it pain you so much to lose a ship due to your own inattentiveness that you would go to the lengths of using third party software, just to have it do what you should be doing already? ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Talarn Kalarn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:53:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Talarn Kalarn
Originally by: Bellum Eternus It's groups of players like Gunfleet that represent everything that is wrong with Eve and the scumbag cheaters that comprise a large number of it's player base.
Tools such as BACON and Goonfleet's similar app, and all other third party metagaming tools designed to automate info gathering from the local channel are despicable.
Because Gunfleet are responsible for even more metagaming, they deserve to be grouped with Goonfleet, RA and every other loser bunch that does everything possible to take advantage of every loophole and cheat they can use to win at any cost.
Gunfleet, you have my utmost contempt.
*holds up mirror
I'm assuming you're some kind of ISK farmer to defend what they're doing?
Nope, I simply disliked your language and think you probably fit your own descriptions.
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Faife
Blackrain Solutions Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:55:00 -
[328]
I hate gate camps vs belt/freespace fights, sucks this will be lead to more gate camps
That said, props to doing this the right way. It took a lot of guts to alert CCP, vs the other major alliances who have their own apps for this.
And frankly, more argument that our ships should have programmable (and enemy hackable) interfaces that allow us to program in scripts like this. Keep local, add in ship coding.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:57:00 -
[329]
Originally by: techzer0 Does it pain you so much to lose a ship due to your own inattentiveness that you would go to the lengths of using third party software, just to have it do what you should be doing already?
Since you kind of asked me directly... I never assume anywhere is safe, ever. Those who have flown with me will tell you of just how attentive (translation: paranoid) that I am. Nothing happens near me that doesn't get a part of my attention. One time I slacked on that, got suicide ganked. Spanked myself for my stupidity and went back to doing what I do. So don't think that my disgust with alt trolling is in support or is against this program. I have reserved judgment until more is heard from CCP. I initially visited the site during the first launch of Bacon and I was the first to point out the server capability as being a bit much. And, stating this clearly, I do not have BACON nor have I downloaded it. I don't personally see the need but if it is found to comply with CCP's ideas of 3rd party application I'm not going to dictate to others the standards of their rest and recreation. In addition, answering the macro bot paranoia's, everything that this community has ever developed for the average joe has also been to the benefit of farmers. Get over it. EFT, Eve Meep, etc., etc. Anything we can use in the so-called "spirit of the game" ... (I love how the spirit comes out when there's little logic or foundation for an objection!) ... as honest non-cheating individuals can easily, and readily, benefit every dishonest cheating ho out there. And, in closing, I still reserve judgment on if it is cheating until someone smarter (than me) and fairer (than all you bastards) takes a good hard look at the situation and speaks their peace. Right now, it seems to be ok with them... but like the GM said, "For now. Tomorrow is another day." [Rampant Paraphrase there.]
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Ein Spiegel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:03:00 -
[330]
right, look...
If Bacon is something CCP doesn't mind everyone having, let's do a little bit o' trivial programming on the client side. None of that sloppy "let's read the dump" kind of thing. How about, under Audio in your escape menu, you have a little check box that says "Enable warning tones".
If you check that box, then another area appears with the following options: "Warn if pilot with <0.0 sec status enters system." "Warn if pilot with <-2.0 sec status enters system." "Warn if pilot with standings <0 enters system."
And play a little soundbite for each. (Not customizable... heck, I can't even change the songs in the "jukebox" and I'd love that functionality.)
And since it's been GPL'd, CCP could do it using the original code as a base so long as THAT portion of their functionality is opened up. (Given how the client is stored, which CCP acknowledges in another recent news item, I can't see this being an insurmountable hurdle.)
Of course, the entire use of Local chat channel as an early warning system guts the system scanner concept, use of probes, etc, but that's a different topic to beat until the horse is dead.
Sweet dreams!
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:08:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Shar Tegral Since you kind of asked me directly...
Not really, I just picked up the habit of being really direct when I write and haven't managed to break it lately without a few edits, and I'm too lazy to edit
Originally by: Shar Tegral And, in closing, I still reserve judgment on if it is cheating until someone smarter (than me) and fairer (than all you bastards) takes a good hard look at the situation and speaks their peace. Right now, it seems to be ok with them... but like the GM said, "For now. Tomorrow is another day." [Rampant Paraphrase there.]
And that got a chuckle out of me. "You bastards" is a very fitting description of the EVE forum populace. Myself included
Offtopic posting ftw! ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:18:00 -
[332]
Basically it was probably OK when it was a bit under the radar and not many people used it or knew about it. Now it's majorly in the open, I reckon there will be changes to the Eve client in the not too distant future to stop this from working.
There's not much point in CCP saying it's against the EULA and banning it at the moment, as it doesn't "hook" Eve, so can't really be detected reliably.
My opinion is that if it's not in the game, it's not in the game.
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UGWidowmaker
Caldari Setenta Corp Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:36:00 -
[333]
If this is posible, its also very easy to make this program go even further and add a macro to it... very simple really.. {if} blah bla code go to!! ( im not aprogramer lol ) but i see it would be very damn easy.
removing local is a bad idea thou! it would be to easy to kill people then! way to easy! OMFG
I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
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Anglo
Minmatar Astral Mexicans
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:38:00 -
[334]
ps how many times have this socalled pathetic alliance used this tool for when in war ??? how many did it save ? is the programe they have not altered to give more info ???
lots of questions... i would ban the entire alliance..
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:58:00 -
[335]
If this ridiculous tool still exists when the CSM election is done, that will be the very first issue I'll take before the council, to be discussed directly with the devs at the first meeting.
This is taking the metagaming and third-party application more than just one step too far. And the worst is that this is only one such tool of many. The rest of the alliances that use third-party software to help them win wars and/or farm ISK just doesn't speak up publicly, for fear of having their tools outlawed.
Bored during Downtime? Why not try Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN! |
Talarn Kalarn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:05:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Esmenet If this gets approved by CCP i will probably quit the game.
Can I have your stuff?
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Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:08:00 -
[337]
ARGH!
Please, if you do not know what kind of programming you are talking about just don't.
For all I see it just parses a plain-text-file. This contains Names and time. Thats it.
To find out the sec-status, you would need to do a DB-Query ingame.
To automate something like "warp to & cloak" you would need to connect a Makro-System to the parsing system (or add the parser to the Makro-System) and that would clearly break the EULA.
As far as I can see this doesn't really do anything but get you an info on join/leave in local. It's not dramatic... It's not overly usefull... except for the moments you spend afdesktop. *shrugs*
Well coded. Thanks for sharing. Won't use it though, I guess I like punishment.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:19:00 -
[338]
Edited by: techzer0 on 21/04/2008 08:19:48
Originally by: Thirzarr ARGH!
Please, if you do not know what kind of programming you are talking about just don't.
For all I see it just parses a plain-text-file. This contains Names and time. Thats it.
To find out the sec-status, you would need to do a DB-Query ingame.
To automate something like "warp to & cloak" you would need to connect a Makro-System to the parsing system (or add the parser to the Makro-System) and that would clearly break the EULA.
As far as I can see this doesn't really do anything but get you an info on join/leave in local. It's not dramatic... It's not overly usefull... except for the moments you spend afdesktop. *shrugs*
Well coded. Thanks for sharing. Won't use it though, I guess I like punishment.
Ok, it's programmed to play a sound out of game...
Sooo instead or warp+cloak, add in an out of game line of code that terminates the EVE process. Instant ctrl+q, and not bannable by any means. ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:36:00 -
[339]
Originally by: techzer0 Ok, it's programmed to play a sound out of game...
Sooo instead or warp+cloak, add in an out of game line of code that terminates the EVE process. Instant ctrl+q, and not bannable by any means.
So first of all I see that you need to *make* the standings list yourself. So how many people who can't even be aresed sitting at their keyboard are going to go to all the effort of doing that.
Secondly - this code is open source and they are making an effort to comply with CCP demands - so they are not going to be adding the ctrl-q feature. So the only way to get this is to add the code yourself.
So - is this game breaking? given that a) out of the box it is useless - because unless you have a standings list it is just a beep when someone leaves or enters local and b) any ctrl-q features will only be added by people who can code and want to cheat - and lets face it the game already has much more serious problems with bots than this one.
A good thing - may be not The sky is falling - I don't think so
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Elis Verone
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:57:00 -
[340]
well listen.. i would as allaince if i were to use this crap program. make it upload all data about who enters etc into a alliance DB. we then can see who of the enemies move where all the time... have a few n00b scout alts in surounding systems and the DB will keep being updated.. this is done very very simple... and if ccp says yes to this sort of program ill sure as hell make that.. would be such a sweet tool.. for 00 alliance warfare.. as i see it it would be the end of eve. and only make eve pvp even more about blobbing gates...
atm all pvp is about is who have the biggest fleet.. its irelevant with skills. etc... its irelevant if u have 100 officer fitted bs if the enemy send in 1000 frigs.. its just starting to be plain silly.
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Scout McAlt
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:15:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Elis Verone atm all pvp is about is who have the biggest fleet.. its irelevant with skills. etc... its irelevant if u have 100 officer fitted bs if the enemy send in 1000 frigs.. its just starting to be plain silly.
100 BS + 1 Cov Ops can massacre any number of frig fleets. Tactics beats numbers
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Diicc Tater
Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:15:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa it breaks the spirit of the game.
Exactly my thought.
QFTMFT
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Eternal Hatred
Amarr Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:17:00 -
[343]
Can I ahve stuff from all those people who will quit today because CCP has approved this program? _________________
It's great being an Amarr, isn't it??? :( |
Sha4d13
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:25:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Thirzarr ARGH!
To automate something like "warp to & cloak" you would need to connect a Makro-System to the parsing system (or add the parser to the Makro-System) and that would clearly break the EULA.
.
And just how would anyone be able to identify and prove that breach? Thats right- they cant... And if you think that large swathes of farmers, not to mention many alliances in this game would not use such a tool in that way- you are incredibly naive.
This tool is cheating- plain and simple. The sooner CCP take action upon it the better.
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Herring
Caldari Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:27:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Ishina Fel If this ridiculous tool still exists when the CSM election is done, that will be the very first issue I'll take before the council, to be discussed directly with the devs at the first meeting.
This is taking the metagaming and third-party application more than just one step too far. And the worst is that this is only one such tool of many. The rest of the alliances that use third-party software to help them win wars and/or farm ISK just doesn't speak up publicly, for fear of having their tools outlawed.
This.
Anything that eliminates risk for some of the people all of the time is a bad, bad thing.
Boost patch...nerfs: 1) faction passive shield resistance amplifiers, 2) exploration radar sites, 3) faction co-processors |
UKM Thorgrim
Caldari Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:47:00 -
[346]
PVP is hard enough catching people, with log offski's, hiding in station, insta warp, and other assorted crap ,
Now with this programme out and about its going to get even worse.
BAN The programme & it's use from game, or just stop all PVP all togeather and kill the rest of the Eve game off.
If this application gets to wide ingame use i'll just quit.
Honour & Steel. |
Il Reverendo
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:54:00 -
[347]
BanBACONBeetracker!
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Soul of Fountain
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:25:00 -
[348]
I'm against out of game tools, but IMHO CCP really should make this sort of information available through using plug ins ala world of warcraft.
The UI and options of eve is and always have been horrible. Allowing players to create addons would improve the game greatly. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Primnproper
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:26:00 -
[349]
I don't see how having this programming running with an alt scout is any different from having your 5 year old (for example) watching local on your alt with orders to shout "Daddy!!!", when people with red bits on them appear....
And further more surely our amazingly advanced neural interfaces should be able to play a warning sound for this sort of thing already... |
Commoner
Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:27:00 -
[350]
This is very interesting. For the following reasons:
1) The application provides no intel that local doesn't already give you, the only thing changed is the way it's communicated.
2) BACON is in a grey area as far as legality goes, it's impossible to track the use of it. And who knows? Maybe someone else has a similiar home made program on their own computer?
3) It raises som very valid questions as to whats allowed and what's not.
Generally i fail to see the usefulness of this tool to macrominers, mentioned by a lot of players, as they already have far more effective tools for that. Par se i'm not against this sort of application, don't intend on using it as EVE is already running slow on my computer as it is.
It's good that the announcement has been public, and i really hope that CCP learns from this, hopefully we could have local removed and introduce a much more immersive warning system (thinking - submarine ping and beeps - limited range pinger). I want sound in eve
The worst pvp'er in EVE :
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:33:00 -
[351]
Originally by: UKM Thorgrim If this application gets to wide ingame use i'll just quit.
As many times as I read this it never fails to make me chuckle. Of course my first thought is "Yeah right". Then it is almost, without fail, "so what". I'm sorry if this would be enough to make you leave Eve but I have to be honest; besides those few close to you - who cares? Despite the ever touted "mass exodus" that seems to always, and inevitably, be on the horizon somehow the same "I'll quit if..." people are still here quitting. Quit, please, just go ahead and quit. Stop toying with us... do it, now. Exactly. So let's get back to discussing, endlessly, how game breaking this is. How devastating to your world this is going to be... My goodness, what would eve be without all the emoing drama queens. If only more of them could construct sentences and use punctuation as well. Alas...
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Jessica Lorelei
Minmatar Shiverau FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:38:00 -
[352]
Edited by: Jessica Lorelei on 21/04/2008 10:38:49 if the ships computer sees fit to play a hideous warp noise despite space being SILENT, why the hell cant it play a noise when someone enters local?
what kind of backwards ship designer forgot to add that feature?
ccp add audio alerts and be done with it.
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Darcuese
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:10:00 -
[353]
Edited by: Darcuese on 21/04/2008 11:11:40 Welcome to Macronity and Farminity. Trinity, how things used to be once me, myself and I ------> |
Sindayn Itai
Marmite.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:34:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Commoner This is very interesting. For the following reasons:
1) The application provides no intel that local doesn't already give you, the only thing changed is the way it's communicated.
2) BACON is in a grey area as far as legality goes, it's impossible to track the use of it. And who knows? Maybe someone else has a similiar home made program on their own computer?
3) It raises som very valid questions as to whats allowed and what's not.
Generally i fail to see the usefulness of this tool to macrominers, mentioned by a lot of players, as they already have far more effective tools for that. Par se i'm not against this sort of application, don't intend on using it as EVE is already running slow on my computer as it is.
It's good that the announcement has been public, and i really hope that CCP learns from this, hopefully we could have local removed and introduce a much more immersive warning system (thinking - submarine ping and beeps - limited range pinger). I want sound in eve
I totally agree with your post up to the point your view was expressed on how local should be delt with.
Players should not be piggy-backing this program/discussion to force the long standing issues that a portion of the population have with local and how it currently works. The local issue has just as much controversy as this program does.
Stick to the point at hand, which is the program.
I does not break game mechanics as CCP currently set them. On a Technicality, it does alter the base code mechanics of how local is currently programed to work.
I see it as a double edged sword, working as intended but undermining.
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retlaw
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:42:00 -
[355]
This is simply a tool that one can use or not use. The fact that all the kill krazy kiddies don't want you to know when they are around is prove it is a good tool. If hulks and haulers and freighters were 100 isk apiece there would be no need for a tool like this. Sorry kids some people don't play this game to get shotup all the time. And before you go on about real life and all that bs,I lived where everytime you had to watch out when you walked down the streets. That place was the upper west side of Manhattan,New York City,where "West Side Story" was made about,and yes I was in a gang too.
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Archa
Caldari Chickens with an Attitude No Law
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:49:00 -
[356]
another sad macro program to destroy eve as we know it. what a sad day.
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Jones Maloy
Minmatar Unified Naval Command
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:53:00 -
[357]
woot go bacon! Unofficial Official Jita Fubar Thread |
Kay Han
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:58:00 -
[358]
even if i can see a reason for this tool (at least i think i see it) i totally sign the "Anti-Bacon" calls.
CCP needs to stop this now. but onthe other hand they also didnt do anything against the GS/remedial **** icon crap.
Originally by: CCP Atropos Personally I think Amarr ships should consume slaves in a similar way that other ships consume ammunition.
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Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:59:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Alyx Alyn
Originally by: Kvirie
Originally by: Minuteman people should have lives outside EVE etc
Then log out.
If you are going to play a game, then play it. If you're going to split your focus, then accept that you're going to be hindered. I lost a Retriever because I alt-tabbed and 3 npcs spawned and killed me. Maybe we should have a Bacon-type program that tells me when I get targeted, or maybe once I'm at half shields? Maybe when i reach armor?
Having sound on and auto-lockbacks enabled probably would've saved you FYI.
Max targets (2) locked already.
It's ok, the trit I mined prior let me make enough shuttles to but several more barges.
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Thargat
Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:02:00 -
[360]
Meh... the forum ate my poast. And since it's a beast one shouldn't feed too often I'm not going to retype it all so I'm gonna keep it simple (ctrl-c I KNOW I KNOW).
So: Good work with producing an app like this (it takes time and effort and such things should be Kudos for letting it out in the open (open source and all) and taking a debate over it on the forums (aswell as asking CCP beforehand). Some people doesn't seem to like this, I'm not surprised. But the outcry is a bit stunning. Apps like this have been around for AGES in eve. You may scream and complain all you want, but the simple fact is that CCP must have been well aware of the possibility of things like this happening when they decided to release the logserver app for the public to use (risk vs reward).
Me personally hate it, not because of what it is (since it's not nearly as sophisticated as some of the macros out there) but because that anything that allows a player to be "non-active" in his eve-play is bad. Bad because it's about players interacting with players, and bad because it makes life for macroers even easier (no need to buy a macro when someone already has done half the work for you).
WTZ, autopilot and afk cloaking are things that (in my oppinion) destroys some of the greatness of eve and every encounter with a non-responsive (possibly afk) player leaves a bitter taste.
I belive that there is very little that CCP can do about things like this (removing local has been mentioned, but there are other instances where similar apps will/or already are being applied) without crippling the situational-awareness elements in the UI to an unreasonable degree. I'm NOT however a game designer, and I'd love to have CCP prove me wrong. The guys who made this app (gunfleet) do NOT deserve all the crap the community has been billowing out. They made an app, asked CCP if it was OK, was given approval and released it to the community. Nothing wrong with that...
There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius. |
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Plaetean
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:15:00 -
[361]
I thought using the game mechanics in an unintended way was an exploit . This is ******* ridiculous, use your eyes you lazy ****s.
-----
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Sidewayzracer
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:17:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Plaetean I thought using the game mechanics in an unintended way was an exploit . This is ******* ridiculous, use your eyes you lazy ****s.
I would like to subscribe to your weekly newsletter how do i sign up.
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Cissnei
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:18:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Plaetean I thought using the game mechanics in an unintended way was an exploit . This is ******* ridiculous, use your eyes you lazy ****s.
lol
because dropping a can to bait new players into becoming flashy red to you was an INTENDED side effect of thief flagging?
wannabe's are soem of the biggest hypocrites.
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Virtuozzo
IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:23:00 -
[364]
I'm not sure which I find more unnerving. The concept of the application, or litterally the myriad of known alts venting how bad it all is while the mains have used similar systems on a widespread scale for years.
Frankly it's not even this particular concept of making use of client and/or logserver generated logs which worries me. It is a different focus which worries me, that of the home built market tools which are in use and which are remarkably more effective then any currently available API based market tool.
I seriously doubt whether this bacon stuff has any effect on farming. That's a niche of its own kind in EVE (unfortunately) which uses entirely different stuff.
CAOD FTW.
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Plaetean
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:25:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Cissnei
Originally by: Plaetean I thought using the game mechanics in an unintended way was an exploit . This is ******* ridiculous, use your eyes you lazy ****s.
lol
because dropping a can to bait new players into becoming flashy red to you was an INTENDED side effect of thief flagging?
wannabe's are soem of the biggest hypocrites.
What a strange thing to say, apart from ignorant rash assumptions, what ever makes you think I've done that?
-----
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:28:00 -
[366]
There was interesting question asked earlier: What else is logged on logserver ?
Ie - if this is legimate then what else is legimate? Nice voice telling you who is doing the most damage to you and what damage types ? Or something that tells you the weakest resistance type of your current target you are shooting ? Keeping cloaked alt at gate few jumps out getting voice information about hostiles and their ship types with central server somewhere distributing all that information to your side ?
As similar tools (and god knows what more) is already use by some 0.0 entities that play for 'win' not for fun hopefully this tool will get some more publicity on the issue and quikens a bit top level decision if that kind of things are ok and where the line goes.
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Sidewayzracer
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:29:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Plaetean
Originally by: Cissnei
Originally by: Plaetean I thought using the game mechanics in an unintended way was an exploit . This is ******* ridiculous, use your eyes you lazy ****s.
lol
because dropping a can to bait new players into becoming flashy red to you was an INTENDED side effect of thief flagging?
wannabe's are soem of the biggest hypocrites.
What a strange thing to say, apart from ignorant rash assumptions, what ever makes you think I've done that?
ive seen him do it hes lying
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:31:00 -
[368]
Real-time logging is bad particularly for reasons like enabling people to make applications of this sort.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Doonoo Boonoo
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:35:00 -
[369]
Originally by: Cissnei
Originally by: Plaetean I thought using the game mechanics in an unintended way was an exploit . This is ******* ridiculous, use your eyes you lazy ****s.
lol
because dropping a can to bait new players into becoming flashy red to you was an INTENDED side effect of thief flagging?
wannabe's are soem of the biggest hypocrites.
I'm using BACON right now to track your members. Is good yes?
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:42:00 -
[370]
This thread is packed with no-balls idiots trolling on alts!
Anyone who doesn't get this, was clueless to begin with.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA
Wake up CCP!
Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry ) |
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:05:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds This thread is packed with no-balls idiots trolling on alts!
Anyone who doesn't get this, was clueless to begin with.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA
Wake up CCP!
They probably know that people have been doing it for a long time previous to this and already living with the decision to not do anything about it.
Trinity graphix upgrade 3.0.eleventybillion is maybe more important?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:23:00 -
[372]
Cheating pure and simple.
*Banhammer incoming*
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Turzyx
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:34:00 -
[373]
Just to clarify, couldn't you get the same result by staring at local chat?
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:39:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Turzyx Just to clarify, couldn't you get the same result by staring at local chat?
You could, but then again, couldn't a macro miner get the same result by just sitting at his keyboard and directing his ship? Does this mean that automated bots for mining are ok?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Turzyx
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:41:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Turzyx Just to clarify, couldn't you get the same result by staring at local chat?
You could, but then again, couldn't a macro miner get the same result by just sitting at his keyboard and directing his ship? Does this mean that automated bots for mining are ok?
Ok so that's a yes then.
In response to your later comments, how are you supposed to hear (and ACT) on these sounds if you are not at your PC, with this program?
Wireless headset? How is this different to a friend shouting at you on ingame voice or Ventrilo?
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:47:00 -
[376]
Edited by: Ki An on 21/04/2008 13:49:00
Originally by: Turzyx
Ok so that's a yes then.
In response to your later comments, how are you supposed to hear (and ACT) on these sounds if you are not at your PC, with this program?
Wireless headset? How is this different to a friend shouting at you on ingame voice or Ventrilo?
The latter takes team work and has a chance of failure in that said friend can miss a hostile. An automated script will not fail, and it grants the same advantage that team work would. BACON is automating social functions and promoting afk game play. It is seriously bad for the game.
And as for your question about acting upon the info given, are you really having trouble understanding this? An audio signal will travel past the walls of your room, alerting you where you sit in the sofa in front of the tv, giving you enough time to get back to your computer and warp to station. I mean, seriously, is this hard for you to understand?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Turzyx
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:48:00 -
[377]
Quote: promoting afk game play. It is seriously bad for the game.
How is this different to auto-pilot?
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:49:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Turzyx
Quote: promoting afk game play. It is seriously bad for the game.
How is this different to auto-pilot?
Are you dumb? That's a serious question.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Turzyx
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:59:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Turzyx
Quote: promoting afk game play. It is seriously bad for the game.
How is this different to auto-pilot?
Are you dumb? That's a serious question.
No not at all, I'm just trying to understand the problem here.
You say this will encourage AFK gaming (AFK meaning Away From Keyboard), how is this going to benefit someone if they are indeed AFK?
Considering that the main benefit will be to people who are actually playing the game at the time, and not just floating in space somewhere doing nothing (which is a stupid thing to do anyway), the same result could be achieved by simply keeping an eye on local chat.
I've heard all these arguements before, both about Ventrilo (before voice chat was introduced) and about autopilot being removed from the game. I've also heard these arguements about a mod called Spell Alert in World of Warcraft.
This mod uses information that is already availible to the player, and only benefits those who are physically at their computer anyway.
EVEN IF you were waiting in deadspace somewhere for a hostile to come through, you would still have to be at your computer to do something about it, and even if you were alt+tabbed, you could get roughly the same effect by sitting cloaked next to a gate, and listening for the activation sound.
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Mohia Matara
The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:00:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Turzyx
Quote: promoting afk game play. It is seriously bad for the game.
How is this different to auto-pilot?
Are you dumb? That's a serious question.
qft ___________________ I'm annoying |
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Red Crown
Kudzu Collective Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:03:00 -
[381]
Guys I'm taking Xs to go kill and pod all of Hydra alliance.
X for hydra killing op
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Turzyx
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:05:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Red Crown Guys I'm taking Xs to go kill and pod all of Hydra alliance.
X for hydra killing op
Now THATS using legit game mechanics
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:11:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Turzyx
No not at all, I'm just trying to understand the problem here.
You say this will encourage AFK gaming (AFK meaning Away From Keyboard), how is this going to benefit someone if they are indeed AFK?
D'uuuuhh... because this program gives an audiable warning when a hostile enters system. AFK in this case means "not actively playing Eve" as in, watching TV, reading forums, dling ****, taking out the garbage... etc ad infinitum. Basically it takes the danger out of space, because you'll always be warned, no matter how little attention you pay to your safety.
Originally by: Turzyx
Considering that the main benefit will be to people who are actually playing the game at the time, and not just floating in space somewhere doing nothing (which is a stupid thing to do anyway), the same result could be achieved by simply keeping an eye on local chat.
Yes, and the people who ARE playing actively AND keeping tabs on local won't have to use this program. The problem is that lots of people don't think they should have to take any measures to protect themselves, and this program will give them the same security as those who DO take those measures, thus rewarding lazy and/or dumb players.
It can also be used to more closely monitor alliance space, you know those intelchannels that makes it practically impossible to sneak up on anyone anywhere. It will make it impossible to blend into the crowd in a busy system. It takes away the need for team work. It's just so wrong it's not worth discussing if it should be legal or not. Instead we should be discussing how to keep programs like this out of Eve.
Originally by: Turzyx
I've heard all these arguements before, both about Ventrilo (before voice chat was introduced) and about autopilot being removed from the game. I've also heard these arguements about a mod called Spell Alert in World of Warcraft.
No idea about WoW, but you can't compare this to voice programs, as those require team work. You definately can't compare it to auto pilot, as if you go afk while on AP you will get killed with certainty if you're outside high sec, and you'll probably get killed in high sec too.
Originally by: Turzyx
This mod uses information that is already availible to the player, and only benefits those who are physically at their computer anyway.
The information should NOT be available, and as I've shown, it benefits those that are NOT paying attention, wether they are sitting at their computer or in another room.
Originally by: Turzyx
EVEN IF you were waiting in deadspace somewhere for a hostile to come through, you would still have to be at your computer to do something about it, and even if you were alt+tabbed, you could get roughly the same effect by sitting cloaked next to a gate, and listening for the activation sound.
Nonono... please read and understand what we're talking about here.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Skyr
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:20:00 -
[384]
Now that the skeleton is out of the closet can we have local removed?
Thanks.
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Luh Windan
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:29:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Turzyx
D'uuuuhh... because this program gives an audiable warning when a hostile enters system.
How does it know what a hostile is?
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:31:00 -
[386]
Eve has Sound? //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:31:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Luh Windan How does it know what a hostile is?
Reading the OP ftw:
Originally by: OP BACON is a software tool that works with CCP's log server to collect real time data about entries and exits in a system that you are in. It then compares that data to a standings file, and sounds different tones/sounds depending on the status of each entry. For instance, if a war target enters the system, you hear a muted pistol shot. If an unknown enters, BACON sounds a click. Friendly and known entries are low tones. You also hear different tones when people leave the system. The sounds are completely configurable by the user, and can be imported and exported.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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SheriffFruitfly
Caldari FlyinPenguin Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:46:00 -
[388]
Cool. Um, where is the executable installed to?
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:59:00 -
[389]
gtfo of eve
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joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:01:00 -
[390]
Oh great so now when people arnt paying attention to the game they get away anyway ?
This is bs and is near pushing macro .
Whats next ? something that automatically warps you to a pos when hostile enters system ?
Uber idea solves all !! |
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Zakgram
Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:04:00 -
[391]
Edited by: Zakgram on 21/04/2008 15:04:30 Interesting tool. It adds to the list of other tools that tell you out of game that things in-game are happening, including:
Evemon. Saved me from missing skills while not logged in several times due to the extra "Skill training completed" popups and bells. Lets me see my wallet on several chars that aren't the one I'm logged in as, etc. Mining timers. Ping -> drag, drop that can -> go afk 10 minutes -> ping.
Etc etc. People seem to have degrees of it's ok vs. it's not ok. However I think that either all tools of any sort that aren't the game client should be banned, or that all tools are allowed.
The game client is crappy anyway; lots could be done to improve it to reduce the need for 3rd party tools - like asset managers to find stuff because the client sucks - like EFT which should just be built into the game, like timers for mining etc. Waiting for CCP to do them though is like waiting for the overview bugs to be fixed
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Furious Hawk
Caldari Farlight Optic Council
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:09:00 -
[392]
This would be nice to warn high-sec miners about an incoming goonswarm suicide gank, but for 0.0 pvp I don't think this program should really be allowed. -------------------------------------------------- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. |
Lautrec
LFC Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:15:00 -
[393]
Why would this be allowed? I don't get it. What does it matter if it gets around the EULA in some squirmy way? Just ban this miserable piece of junk now.
Oh, and LOLHYDRA.
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Zora
Gallente Community for Justice ParadoXon Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:22:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Nhi'Khuna Holy crap kids, what ar eyou complaning about? This is nothing more than a warning system... like one might conceivably have in a space ship if you were trying to dodge someone... how mnay sci fi novels or films have featured this kind of thing as part of the flavor text of the background?
Sheesh.
Agreed. I can't understand all the whining and outcries in this thread. it's not like this gives you any intel advantage other than not having to stare at LOCAL while it takes up one quarter of your screen. I mean geez, do you think that's any better? IF you accept the way local works right now, you have to accept this. It's a logical consequence, if you don't want to add obfuscation as a valid game mechanic. And no, I won't be using this program, just my observation of this thread.
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Zakgram
Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:22:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Zora LOCAL while it takes up one quarter of your screen.
This; anything that means yet another useless window that accidently gets randomly clicked on and lags the client out while loading the portrait is a good thing. BTW I have 1900x1200 and I'd still get rid of the "chat" portion of local if I could...
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:26:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Zora Agreed. I can't understand all the whining and outcries in this thread. it's not like this gives you any intel advantage other than not having to stare at LOCAL while it takes up one quarter of your screen. I mean geez, do you think that's any better? IF you accept the way local works right now, you have to accept this. It's a logical consequence, if you don't want to add obfuscation as a valid game mechanic. And no, I won't be using this program, just my observation of this thread.
Read, think, then poast.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Firane
Teneritas
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:32:00 -
[397]
Edited by: Firane on 21/04/2008 16:32:07
Wow what a ****ty app.
Another reason this game is going down the toilet. |
Faife
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:50:00 -
[398]
I love mobs. Everyone disses hydra while ignoring Razor, Goonswarm, and themselves for using Vent.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.21 16:59:00 -
[399]
Originally by: Faife I love mobs. Everyone disses hydra while ignoring Razor, Goonswarm, and themselves for using Vent.
Comparing this program to Ventrilo or Teamspeak is such a huge and obvious strawman that there should be spankings administered to those that do it.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Nasty eX
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:09:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Durzel Edited by: Durzel on 20/04/2008 12:11:20
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: Koala Bare At least 2 0.0 alliances use something similar
Please name and shame.
Well, there's this one.
What, not one comment about the bee's? Why is everyone so afraid of the Goons? They are just players too! Peeps are blasting Hydra for this, but there are tools like this that the Goons and BoB have been using for years! If your in BoB or a Goon, you guys need to fess up about this issue. Its only fair. |
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clev age
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:10:00 -
[401]
Edited by: clev age on 21/04/2008 17:11:07 i love this tool it makes it easy for ppl to be lazy and complasent in systems in 0.0 this is easy mode, thx for this
CCP u are fools if you allow this it has so many impacts on the game that is broken enough
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Proxay
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:11:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Nasty eX
What, not one comment about the bee's? Why is everyone so afraid of the Goons? They are just players too! Peeps are blasting Hydra for this, but there are tools like this that the Goons and BoB have been using for years! If your in BoB or a Goon, you guys need to fess up about this issue. Its only fair.
BoB haven't been using any macros of this nature, and goons stopped using them due to impracticality.
Get some evidence before running your mouth off.
Maybe we're recruiting, I don't know, spam eve-mails to Daniel Zorg, and go into a coma for a week. |
Gandolf
Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:14:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Nasty eX
What, not one comment about the bee's? Why is everyone so afraid of the Goons? They are just players too! Peeps are blasting Hydra for this, but there are tools like this that the Goons and BoB have been using for years! If your in BoB or a Goon, you guys need to fess up about this issue. Its only fair.
goons dont have a warning system like this nor does bob but nice try
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Proxay
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:14:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Faife I love mobs. Everyone disses hydra while ignoring Razor, Goonswarm, and themselves for using Vent.
For what you're implying, it'd require vent to have an active player informing the others what is going on, which is not dissimilar to using corp chat, alliance chat, gang chat...etc.
What this program does, is take out the human interaction, allowing isk farmers, carebears and generally incompetent people to rely entirely on a 3rd party program to warn them of hostiles entering their zone. This program is ridiculous, and promotes dis-interest in the game, and makes carebearing too easy in some of the harder areas due to the ease of no longer having to pay attention to local.
I'm calling for this app to be banned, and any similar applications which take the human factor out of playing EVE, and read logserver events to minimize player interaction and concentration, to also be banned/investigated.
Maybe we're recruiting, I don't know, spam eve-mails to Daniel Zorg, and go into a coma for a week. |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:19:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Faife I love mobs. Everyone disses hydra while ignoring Razor, Goonswarm, and themselves for using Vent.
Comparing this program to Ventrilo or Teamspeak is such a huge and obvious strawman that there should be spankings administered to those that do it.
It is so sad that some people are so dense they don't see the difference, or insult us by expecting us to be this dense.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Nick Endymion
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:24:00 -
[406]
Makes me wonder if this is just elaborate plan to have local removed by releasing utility which is just useless to us who actually pay attention while playing. There's been lot more advertising for this program what actually was needed in first place, which strikes me odd.
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Nasty eX
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:49:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Proxay
Originally by: Nasty eX
What, not one comment about the bee's? Why is everyone so afraid of the Goons? They are just players too! Peeps are blasting Hydra for this, but there are tools like this that the Goons and BoB have been using for years! If your in BoB or a Goon, you guys need to fess up about this issue. Its only fair.
BoB haven't been using any macros of this nature, and goons stopped using them due to impracticality.
Get some evidence before running your mouth off.
Ahhh, did I hurt your feelings? I seen it on a co-workers laptop who is in BoB, that was proof enough for me! FYI, that was a year ago. Besides that, everyone knows that no alliance needs a tool such as this for intel. We all have intel channels we use, we have spies, and we have eyes in the way of neuts. Not to mention the use of TS or Vent! Jesus, get a grip, this ain't gonna kill Eve. |
Skyr
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:03:00 -
[408]
Edited by: Skyr on 21/04/2008 18:04:34
Originally by: Nick Endymion Makes me wonder if this is just elaborate plan to have local removed by releasing utility which is just useless to us who actually pay attention while playing. There's been lot more advertising for this program what actually was needed in first place, which strikes me odd.
You are probably right on the ball. I applaud goons for wresting CCP's hand into doing something about local finally as I don't see any other way they can cripple this app without breaking logserver which is is VERY essential for debugging EVE client problems.
Of course... if CCP changes local to scanner based warning system... this will also probably end up in the log and hence app like BACON will still be usable in somewhat limited fashion (scanner doesn't show player name so no standings can be derived).
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:08:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Faife I love mobs. Everyone disses hydra while ignoring Razor, Goonswarm, and themselves for using Vent.
Comparing this program to Ventrilo or Teamspeak is such a huge and obvious strawman that there should be spankings administered to those that do it.
It is so sad that some people are so dense they don't see the difference, or insult us by expecting us to be this dense.
EVE voice exists within the game, and is functionality that all players have available. Why therefore use Ventrillo or Teamspeak, unless it provides some additional advantage that the in game version does not. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:08:00 -
[410]
What I find interesting is that so many people here seem oblivious to the Goon's "bee" program, while jumping all over Hydra's BACON program.
The point is, kiddies, that Hydra is not the only Alliance out there doing this. There are PLENTY of smart players out there that will take any "gray area" advantage they can, and You can be assured that tools like this have been and will continue to be put to wide and frequent use.
You can whine and cry all day about how "lame" or "not fair" it is, but in the end the Devs have ruled it LEGAL and ALLOWED. So not only will BACON become more popular, but now that this possibility is out there in the open, plenty of other "read-only" apps for processing the extraneous data that the EVE client spits out are going to be popping up.
Anyone NOT taking advantage of the BACON program (or something else like it) at this point is a damn fool.
/thread
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:09:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Plaetean I thought using the game mechanics in an unintended way was an exploit . This is ******* ridiculous, use your eyes you lazy ****s.
Instas. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:16:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Skyr
You are probably right on the ball. I applaud goons for wresting CCP's hand into doing something about local finally as I don't see any other way they can cripple this app without breaking logserver which is is VERY essential for debugging EVE client problems.
GUNFLEET LOGISTICS IS NOT GOONFLEET. We're not related, we've got no standings, we've never been a part of them, they of us, or anything of the sort.
Likewise, this is not a HYDRA app. This is a GUNFLEET LOGISTICS app that HYDRA got to beta for a very brief time before launch. They did a great job, and spotted bugs and suggested improvements. And suggested we have CCP clarify some issues for us. Which CCP did.
People... Most of the information in this thread is like this. There are so many conspiracy theories in this thread, with the source available, and archived. Go look for yourself, and ask some questions. Or best yet, stop yelling about what Gunfleet thought, and ask us...
I suppose it's too much to ask, considering many posters can't even figure out who published the app.
Lastly, regarding advertising... TBH, I thought this thread would be much more about technical questions and much less about griefer tears. And this thread is the only thing we've posted on the subject other than the technical thread in the OP. So... I guess we're viral marketing geniuses, or something?
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:20:00 -
[413]
Originally by: James Lyrus EVE voice exists within the game, and is functionality that all players have available. Why therefore use Ventrillo or Teamspeak, unless it provides some additional advantage that the in game version does not.
I assumed it was because the in-game voice comms are buggy and less stable (if the Eve client crashes, out-of-game comms remain active). Other than that, I have no idea why people may prefer out of game voice software.
Nonetheless, if you seriously feel that voice comms are violation of the EULA, you should present that point of view without delay.
Saying that one bad practice excuses another is obviously not the right approach, James. It is that attitude that makes BACON the thin end of a very destructive wedge.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Phelan Driscoll
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:37:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Nasty eX
What, not one comment about the bee's? Why is everyone so afraid of the Goons? They are just players too! Peeps are blasting Hydra for this, but there are tools like this that the Goons and BoB have been using for years! If your in BoB or a Goon, you guys need to fess up about this issue. Its only fair.
We've all been using it. This program alone explains why BoB took all that territory and then we took all that territory.
Why did LV collapse so quickly? Because BoB wouldn't give them beetracker. Couldn't be trusted. *snip* Signature is totally inappropriate and not allowed on EvE Forums. Contact us at [email protected] if you have any queries - Valorem |
Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:43:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Reuser
Lastly, regarding advertising... TBH, I thought this thread would be much more about technical questions and much less about griefer tears. And this thread is the only thing we've posted on the subject other than the technical thread in the OP. So... I guess we're viral marketing geniuses, or something?
Just out of interest (sorry if this seems a silly question), do your alliance members ever actually leave highsec? There is a HUGE difference between Pirate and Griefer. Griefers are people who spend most of their time in highsec ganking mission runners/afk haulers (who deserve it tbh), flipping cans, and occasionally war-deccing small industrial corps. Pirates are people who spend more time in lowsec killing the stupid idiots who go there without knowing how to survive (more people should read the lowsec gate warning tbh).
This exploit of the logging system does not particularly hurt griefers, since they are often not at war, and highsec is crowded with neutrals. Instead it hurts the true pirates who look for targets in lowsec. It is easy to survive in lowsec with nothing more than a cloak, a safe spot, and a bit of common sense. With your applicatiion you do not even have to pay attention to survive pirates.
My main objection however is not with the way your exploit blatantly promotes AFK-play. Rather, I object to the huge array of further macros and other EULA-breaking things that will undoubtedly spring forth from this. Thanks to your application being open-source, it will be easy for anyone to modify it so that rather than playing a sound, it simply ends ExeFile.exe, similar to Ctrl-Q or Alt-F4. Now your lowsec belt-farming raven is virtually invincible, since the moment anyone enters lowsec, you simply log out. Or, if that isn't enough, why not combine this with current macro sotware, and set it loose in 0.0. WOW, now you've got a virtually 100% safe source of AFK income. ...Now I think I'm starting to understand why big alliances like yours really came up with this software...
I'll let your imagination come up with more ideas for various exploits using this. I feel I have already explained well enough why both your alliance and CCP are at fault for ever creating and allowing this software. ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors! |
Ein Spiegel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:56:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Turzyx
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Turzyx
Quote: promoting afk game play. It is seriously bad for the game.
How is this different to auto-pilot?
Are you dumb? That's a serious question.
No not at all, I'm just trying to understand the problem here.
You say this will encourage AFK gaming (AFK meaning Away From Keyboard), how is this going to benefit someone if they are indeed AFK?
Considering that the main benefit will be to people who are actually playing the game at the time, and not just floating in space somewhere doing nothing (which is a stupid thing to do anyway), the same result could be achieved by simply keeping an eye on local chat.
I've heard all these arguements before, both about Ventrilo (before voice chat was introduced) and about autopilot being removed from the game. I've also heard these arguements about a mod called Spell Alert in World of Warcraft.
This mod uses information that is already availible to the player, and only benefits those who are physically at their computer anyway.
EVEN IF you were waiting in deadspace somewhere for a hostile to come through, you would still have to be at your computer to do something about it, and even if you were alt+tabbed, you could get roughly the same effect by sitting cloaked next to a gate, and listening for the activation sound.
Okay, since I am in fact a programmer, albeit not a good one (god, I'd hate for people to see the code I produce) let me answer this question for you with a nice bulleted list.
* - This is a GPL application. So even if the original authors do not intend to violate the EULA, the original source is available to anyone who will. * - It is remarkably trivial to alter the original source code to change the behavior from "play sound if" to "terminate process ####" (the Eve client) or "send Ctrl-Q to Eve Client". * - Certainly, a large and well organized alliance will have a pre-compiled method for tracking standings outside of the game. It caused a snafu recently between our corp and another that someone failed to use theirs to record a change. This program could also be altered (again, very easily) to query such a list or database with the supplied name. * - How is this different from autopilot? Because people using Autopilot die. There's a reason Autopilot does not "warp to 0". Using autopilot through low security or 0.0 space is one of the quicker ways to die, because any gatecamp worth its ISK can lock you and take you down in the 15-20km you'll show up away from the gate.
If you want to start adding in conspiracy theory and tin-foil hat nonsense, consider these other possibilities.
This programming can be altered so that, rather than play a sound, it can compile a list of who entered the system, at what time, and how long they stayed in system. So your alt, sitting in a SS cloaked, can be left to run 24/7. After about a week, you should have a very good idea, without EVER having played the game in that time, where and when specific characters will be on. And when they will be in this system. Humans are and always will be creatures of habit. Now, once you have that statistical trend of when people are where, you can cross reference this with a little actual time to match who is in what corp (if you don't know by looking) and what kind of ships they normally are in. Then completely decimate them whenever it shows that they will be online, alone, and in the system. Or find out who has a secret trade route through that system. Or... well, I'll let the conspiracy theorists go nuts, because they've probably already worked out how it'll mess with them from applying the same arguments that go against Google StreetView.
And that's only one of a few ideas that occurred to how I can warp this GPL'd application to bad ends. (And if farmers are willing to violate the EULA, you know they'll violate the GPL.)
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Skyr
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:03:00 -
[417]
What steals the cake is not the latest source code available but the earlier central server reporting piece and that nice PHP app for you web server to collect the data in centralized database for everyone to view real time.
Sweet.
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Ein Spiegel
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:15:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Skyr What steals the cake is not the latest source code available but the earlier central server reporting piece and that nice PHP app for you web server to collect the data in centralized database for everyone to view real time.
Sweet.
Hey, that might not be a bad thing. See how "Sovereign" some unoccupied systems may really be. Does that alliance really control that space, or do they just claim it while no one ever checks up to make sure?
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Red Panda
VMF-214 Blacksheep Star Buccaneers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:16:00 -
[419]
I dont like this program.
But this isnt the problem, this is the consequence. The problem is the logserver. It gives us too much data that isnt shown in the client.
And players could exploit this.
Remove the logserver or make it test server only.
If removing the logserver tool will cause us to have more bugs but a galaxy free of this meta intel tool. Fine, I can live with bugs. --------- Red Panda ---------
()_() ( '_') (")(") I need Bamboo !! |
Straight Chillen
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:21:00 -
[420]
how dare people hold such contempt for tasty bacon. Yeh it could be an exploit in some ways, yeah it gives people advantages. But you know what, i got a multi monitor setup, i can throw a noob alt cloaked next to a system im ratting on a side screen, doesnt even require me paying attention either, i just listen for gate fire. thats an advantage, should CCP, start making it so i can only run 1 eve client on my PC?. wait why stop there i got another computer right next to it, linked through Synergy, Shouldn't they make it so i can only have one account per IP? Simply put, theres repercussions for everything, the peeps who've made this program have opened a world of undeserved ease to all the lazy farmers, all the people who are demanding its demise, if ur going to ban 1 third party program, why not ban them all. Really all i see here is a lotta people whining, well atleast some have brought vaild intelligent arguements to the table. IMO its questionable weither its within the realms of the acceptable, personally i have no use for it, and as such wont be using it. and i think that will be the case for many many people. so stop freaking out this isnt the end of the world, BoB isnt gonna use this to log their cap fleet on when they see the goons coming, they already know. Either way it will be interesting to see how this all pans out.
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Kix'i
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:22:00 -
[421]
Problem isn't the logserver, its local.
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DanMck
Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:29:00 -
[422]
bacon is cheating plan and simple
it's eve's wall hack
how can this be allowed ?
a macro ratter/miners wet dream
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Benglada
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:31:00 -
[423]
This is bull****. Are you too freaking handicapped to just pay attention to local? ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) |
Skyr
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:34:00 -
[424]
Originally by: DanMck bacon is cheating plan and simple
it's eve's wall hack
how can this be allowed ?
a macro ratter/miners wet dream
It is not dream, it is already in use for a long time.
Few weeks ago I took a tour thru Drone regions and spotted few ratters on several occasions. You know how long they stayed in local?
About 2-3s after I jumped in. That's ALL OF THEM, in separate systems, different times.
I still saw their ravens on scanner so that tells me that they were using some software to auto log off as nobody is this vigilant.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:50:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Skyr
Originally by: DanMck bacon is cheating plan and simple
it's eve's wall hack
how can this be allowed ?
a macro ratter/miners wet dream
It is not dream, it is already in use for a long time.
Few weeks ago I took a tour thru Drone regions and spotted few ratters on several occasions. You know how long they stayed in local?
About 2-3s after I jumped in. That's ALL OF THEM, in separate systems, different times.
I still saw their ravens on scanner so that tells me that they were using some software to auto log off as nobody is this vigilant.
He's right, I've seen many other complaints about this particular type behavior from macro ratters. Absolutely nothing new there. Those people are a lost cause and already break all of the rules.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Quartex
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:58:00 -
[426]
The balance of play and power in Eve has moved back and forth between Carebear and PvPer since I started playing this game.
The last big deal was the introduction of warp to 0, then we had aggression timers and the useabilty of scanning.
The difference here is that a precedent has been set for the permissable use of third party software. Let's not kid ourselves; most of the player base is un-aware of the spread of software like this, to add an edge to the performance of the big Alliances.
What must be resisted is a slide towards consensual PvP, which has been a point of difference for Eve online for sometime.
Reuser and Hydra should be praised for presenting this up front, as it forces the issue. A fresh debate is being had both in the community and no doubt in the offices of CCP.
The outcome will be a further change to the balance of play. In the past, I think I am right in saying, that the "local chat" debate has been evenly divided at CCP between those wanting a change and those who think it should be protected.
My contribution to the debate is;
1. Allow local in Empire 2. Remove local in low sec and nul sec. 3. Remove local in missions and "rooms". 4. Leave Bacon et al in place, it'll not disappear now anyway and logging is needed by CCP. 5. Present the alternatives to the newly elected "Player Parliament" and let them canvas opinion and present the arguments so that a democratic vote can be had.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:14:00 -
[427]
Edited by: Reuser on 21/04/2008 20:15:33
Originally by: Quartex
Reuser and Hydra should be praised for presenting this up front, as it forces the issue. A fresh debate is being had both in the community and no doubt in the offices of CCP.
To be clear, Cesar Malari is the author of BACON, and Gunfleet Logistics is the corp behind the tool. Eron and I have fielded some of the responses, as BACON had input from most of us, and launch has truly been a group effort.
Also, as I said before, our alliance, HYDRA had a brief testing period, and assisted with bugs, typos, feature requests and recommendations.
Thanks!
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Savlin
Gallente principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:21:00 -
[428]
Does this mean that CCP accepts and allowes other forms of automated gaming software?
Bacon ==fail Macro ==fail iskselling ==fail
PVP == win
Someone said that bacon should be allowed in empire but not in 0.0 I agree with that but cannot see how this is done from a technical viewpoint.
sig here
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PwnzDeLeOwnz
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:22:00 -
[429]
I fully support bacon.
You see, I am a chronic masterb*tor. When I get the urge, I can be afk for hours on end and come back to find that my barge has been destroyed. With bacon I have the default sound for a hostile set as the sound of my parents coming up the stairs. Whenever I hear that, I zip up and dash to the computer by instinct and blow it in my pants where it's hidden.
Now with bacon, I save my barge and get off at the same time!
Thanks Bacon!
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Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:37:00 -
[430]
I just looked up the EULA and despite what CCP have said, I still feel this program breaches it:
Originally by: EVE ONLINE EULA CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
The red bold text refers to third-party software which modifies the UI (sound is included in the UI), or otherwise imparts beneficial effects on the player (Alerts of war targets qualify as this).
Now, if anyone wishes to say that this is NOT in breach of the EULA, please explain how. ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors! |
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5n4keyes
Sacred Templars DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:46:00 -
[431]
Ummmm not to point out the obvious, but chat logs can be delayed upto 60 seconds!
This means that there could be a whole minute pass without you knowing anything!
This program just encourages lazyness, and shows peoples inability to check local!
I guess thats why theres alot of people roaming Hydra space these days... BACON means more kills
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Kery Syander
The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:49:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Firane Edited by: Firane on 21/04/2008 16:32:07
Wow what a ****ty app.
Another reason this game is going down the toilet.
-----
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Miki Fin
Gallente Independant Union of Rangers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:07:00 -
[433]
Originally by: Karentaki Edited by: Karentaki on 21/04/2008 20:54:34 I just looked up the EULA and despite what CCP have said, I still feel this program breaches it:
Originally by: EVE ONLINE EULA CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
EDIT:
Originally by: TERMS OF SERVICE 21. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. ... 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site.
The red bold text refers to third-party software which modifies the UI (sound is included in the UI), or otherwise imparts beneficial effects on the player (Alerts of war targets qualify as this).
EDIT: Also added some stuff from the TOS which outlaws all third-party apps unless they are expressly permitted by CCP (as is the case with EveMon and others)
Now, if anyone wishes to say that this is NOT in breach of the EULA, please explain how.
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
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lord mouse
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:08:00 -
[434]
CCP how could you
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lord mouse
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:10:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Miki Fin
Originally by: Karentaki stuff
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
those programs dont use files from the eve client.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:14:00 -
[436]
Originally by: lord mouse
Originally by: Miki Fin
Originally by: Karentaki stuff
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
those programs dont use files from the eve client.
Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:16:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Miki Fin
Originally by: Karentaki STUFF
I take it teamspeak/ventrillo/etc are also in breach of the TOS?
Yes, they are in breach of the TOS, but they seem to be endorsed by CCP (stickys and stuff) so they are an exception to this rule. However, the difference is these provide functionality that is already in eve, whereas BACON adds functionality, breaching the EULA (The one that really matters). ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors! |
lord mouse
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:17:00 -
[438]
Edited by: lord mouse on 21/04/2008 21:18:18
Originally by: James Lyrus Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile.
huh? how is parsing a log file created by the eve client not using a file from the eve client?
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:24:00 -
[439]
Originally by: lord mouse Edited by: lord mouse on 21/04/2008 21:18:18
Originally by: James Lyrus Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile.
huh? how is parsing a log file created by the eve client not using a file from the eve client?
If you read the EULA carefully, the prohibiton is about modifying game files. Reading a file is not modyifying it.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:28:00 -
[440]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas If you read the EULA carefully, the prohibiton is about modifying game files. Reading a file is not modyifying it.
BACON doesn't just read the data.
It sorts the data and alerts the user to specific portions of the data, in real time, according to pre-defined criteria.
It removes the need for ordinary player actions by automating them.
That is a violation of the EULA.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:35:00 -
[441]
Originally by: lord mouse Edited by: lord mouse on 21/04/2008 21:18:18
Originally by: James Lyrus Strictly speaking, neither does bacon. It just parses a logfile.
huh? how is parsing a log file created by the eve client not using a file from the eve client?
In the same way that posting a screenshot, created by the eve client, to eve files isn't.
Or hell, sometimes people *shock* edit screenys too. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:44:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Torik Tavitas If you read the EULA carefully, the prohibiton is about modifying game files. Reading a file is not modyifying it.
BACON doesn't just read the data.
It sorts the data and alerts the user to specific portions of the data, in real time, according to pre-defined criteria.
It removes the need for ordinary player actions by automating them.
That is a violation of the EULA.
Reading data with a program is essentially the same regardless of the data and the program.
Reading a JPEG file, and decompressing it, to view it, and edit it in paint, is actually more processing than this logfile parser is doing.
How do you distinguish the two?
It's also not eliminating any player action - it's just matching a log, and playing a beep. You still have to logoffski, warp to your safe, cloak, or whatever.
But at the end of the day, the semantics don't matter - bottom line is 'exploit' is defined by CCP. Problem here, is it's pretty hard to tell the difference between 'exploit' and 'normal use' - it's not going to be obvious on the client, it's not going to be possible to tell remotely, since it doesn't change anything apart from act as a substitute for 'having local pinned on your backdrop'.
-- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:04:00 -
[443]
Edited by: Cori4n on 21/04/2008 22:04:26
Originally by: Miki Fin 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site.
As you noted this would ban every EVE-related tool in existence.
But I don't really understand why everyone likes to quote the EULA here. As it is, CCP has stated clearly that BACON is presently to be treated as EULA-compliant. Neither its author nor its users will get banned for it. If CCP decides to outlaw it (I do hope they don't), they will either claim it now counts as breaking one of the EULA's terms, or, if it doesn't, they will modify the EULA so that it does. The EULA's actual text is, to be honest, irrelevant...
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:27:00 -
[444]
Hmm I have not yet tested this tool,however to be honest,I don't see why all the complaints. CCP has said that as of now the tool is within the EULA and the OP has provided the link and CCP names to back that up. Although,like I said,I haven't tested this tool yet(I am at the university library),I think this tool will provide for even more intense PVP as it opens tactical possibilities quite a bit.I am not going to go further into details as I need to test it,but personally i am looking at this tool as a so much needed expansion of the tactical possibilities for PVP. I think also that everyone needs to take a deep breath,a step back and let CCP do their job. If CCP finds that at the end this tool violates the EULA and ToS, they will inform the owner of this tool,they will inform the users. So,please do take a deep breath,a step back and enjoy the game
EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:48:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Reuser Likewise, this is not a HYDRA app. This is a GUNFLEET LOGISTICS app that HYDRA got to beta for a very brief time before launch. They did a great job, and spotted bugs and suggested improvements. And suggested we have CCP clarify some issues for us. Which CCP did.
Nobody cares. To us, you are Hydra. Gunfleet Logistics to us is honestly some tool of a corp hiding behind an alliance and that's the fact.
Additionally, the fact that you're in Hydra does not assist your release. Also, you opted not to show your alliance tags initially, which makes me skeptical as to your motives.
Your corp is not going to receive any praise from this, believe me. The guy that made it is, but stop representing it as "A Gunfleet Logistics Release" because nobody gives a crap.
Sorry.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:50:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix however to be honest,I don't see why all the complaints.
how can you not see what all the complaints are there? this isn't warp to 0, this is beyond allowing people to be lazy to the point of ridiculousness, its like condoning the logoffski, it basically allows someone as soon as they here *DING! FRIES ARE DONE* to log out run and do whatever. its utter crap
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
CCP has said....
CCP has said alot of things, and the people at CCP have changed over the years so just cause some statements are made, if you go back to the last few monumental boners that have been uttered, the phrase "with a grain of salt" barely represents the tip of the iceberg on this one... if anything they should remove local in 0.0 and low sec, not add a diaper and handywipes
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:05:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa ... Sorry.
Your last line sums up your post quite nicely. You have an amazing amount of insight into our corporation, development process and motives or lack thereof for someone who is not in our corporation. +1 for rank speculation and outright fabrications, though.
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Major Death
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:28:00 -
[448]
Edited by: Major Death on 21/04/2008 23:28:14 How is any of this new? Macro ratters and pharmers have been auto warping and logging off since 2006 (or earlier). And how is this any different from other meta-gaming ploys e.g. login traps, e.t.c?
My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!' |
Cerulean Fire
Gallente Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:42:00 -
[449]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
You know, just because every kid in class is cheating on the test doesn't mean that you have to, as well. Interesting that you imply that even though you believe this program is ruining EVE, you'll still use it... Just a thought. IISUN is Recruiting \o/
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:44:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Cerulean Fire
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Great. So instead of cutting out the cheaters, now we're all cheaters.
Awesome.
You know, just because every kid in class is cheating on the test doesn't mean that you have to, as well. Interesting that you imply that even though you believe this program is ruining EVE, you'll still use it... Just a thought.
What? For the amount of protesting I'm doing I think it's pretty clear I am against this type of loophole through backdoors and software dumps/logs.
I'm not going to use it.
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Segge Bolled
Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:50:00 -
[451]
I'm tempted to state "BACON is the best thing since HAM" but I can't help but suspect I'd be slandered into the next page, before people understood I was trying to be "punny".
The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign |
Nerf Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:02:00 -
[452]
Edited by: Nerf Caldari on 22/04/2008 00:04:44 i'm special
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Greekil
Gallente Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:05:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa What? For the amount of protesting I'm doing I think it's pretty clear I am against this type of loophole through backdoors and software dumps/logs.
I'm not going to use it.
Just like you didn't use the goon portrait hack to help your corp analyze intel from local faster?
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:07:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix however to be honest,I don't see why all the complaints.
how can you not see what all the complaints are there? this isn't warp to 0, this is beyond allowing people to be lazy to the point of ridiculousness, its like condoning the logoffski, it basically allows someone as soon as they here *DING! FRIES ARE DONE* to log out run and do whatever. its utter crap
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
CCP has said....
CCP has said alot of things, and the people at CCP have changed over the years so just cause some statements are made, if you go back to the last few monumental boners that have been uttered, the phrase "with a grain of salt" barely represents the tip of the iceberg on this one... if anything they should remove local in 0.0 and low sec, not add a diaper and handywipes
For people to log out when danger appears, that is each person's decision and cannot be blamed on any program,any single pilot and so forth
CCP may have changed their minds before,but that is their problem. As of now, they have said that this tool doesn't violate the EULA.As far as I am concerned that is good enough. If later CCP changes their mind, that is their problem and I am sure they will notify the owners and the users. But,what I am seeing here is basically a gang banging, people screaming for CCP to ban something which they said didn't break the EULA. That attitude is not fair to either the person that coded this tool,either to the users who like it. Bottom line is,if you or anyone else doesn't like it,don't use it. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:58:00 -
[455]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/04/2008 00:59:49
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Torik Tavitas If you read the EULA carefully, the prohibiton is about modifying game files. Reading a file is not modyifying it.
BACON doesn't just read the data.
It sorts the data and alerts the user to specific portions of the data, in real time, according to pre-defined criteria.
It removes the need for ordinary player actions by automating them.
That is a violation of the EULA.
Originally by: James Lyrus Reading data with a program is essentially the same regardless of the data and the program.
Reading a JPEG file, and decompressing it, to view it, and edit it in paint, is actually more processing than this logfile parser is doing.
How do you distinguish the two?
I don't need to distinguish between the two.
You are offering a hypothetical process for comparison against a material application.
It is the material application that is under discussion.
Originally by: James Lyrus It's also not eliminating any player action - it's just matching a log, and playing a beep. You still have to logoffski, warp to your safe, cloak, or whatever.
You are wrong
(For clarity I have highlighted where you have indicated the automation in your own reply, although you have also attempted to minimize it's significance).
By filtering the data provided in local and selecting only the data that is important to the user, BACON removes the need for players to scan the data and process that data for themselves. The original game mechanics designate this an active process; BACON automates it.
If it did not, it would be worthless and the creators would not be advertising it with the slogan, "Never be surprised again."
Originally by: James Lyrus But at the end of the day, the semantics don't matter - bottom line is 'exploit' is defined by CCP. Problem here, is it's pretty hard to tell the difference between 'exploit' and 'normal use' - it's not going to be obvious on the client, it's not going to be possible to tell remotely, since it doesn't change anything apart from act as a substitute for 'having local pinned on your backdrop'.
I have already disproved your final point here.
It is not a question of "semantics".
BACON automates player actions, altering game mechanics by removing the need for player participation. It is clearly a violation of the EULA.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:06:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Greekil
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa What? For the amount of protesting I'm doing I think it's pretty clear I am against this type of loophole through backdoors and software dumps/logs.
I'm not going to use it.
Just like you didn't use the goon portrait hack to help your corp analyze intel from local faster?
Do you remember how when I found out it was against the EULA (CCP came forward and stated that client-side mods are not allowed) and that I stopped doing it?
Don't you dare come here and tell me that I am saying one thing and doing another. That was over a year ago, and the only reason you've posted in this thread is to talk crap about me.
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darklegionca
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:09:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Greekil
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa What? For the amount of protesting I'm doing I think it's pretty clear I am against this type of loophole through backdoors and software dumps/logs.
I'm not going to use it.
Just like you didn't use the goon portrait hack to help your corp analyze intel from local faster?
Do you remember how when I found out it was against the EULA (CCP came forward and stated that client-side mods are not allowed) and that I stopped doing it?
Don't you dare come here and tell me that I am saying one thing and doing another. That was over a year ago, and the only reason you've posted in this thread is to talk crap about me.
my god sig is that all you do is cry and whine get a life or just steal one like you did with my corp members ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend. |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:09:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Do you remember how when I found out it was against the EULA (CCP came forward and stated that client-side mods are not allowed) and that I stopped doing it?
Yep, declared against the EULA because it did its work from INSIDE the game client. Which Bacon doesn't do.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:12:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 22/04/2008 01:12:41
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
BACON automates player actions, altering game mechanics by removing the need for player participation. It is clearly a violation of the EULA.
Small problem with your interpretation; CCP doesn't agree at this time.
Could be they will decide it is LATER and make alterations to keep this type of app from running, but until then it is NOT a EULA violation since only CCP can declare it such.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:14:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Do you remember how when I found out it was against the EULA (CCP came forward and stated that client-side mods are not allowed) and that I stopped doing it?
Yep, declared against the EULA because it did its work from INSIDE the game client. Which Bacon doesn't do.
True, but it access game files directly from the client to interact with the user in real time. It walks the line, and because CCP has not yet come forward with a firm yes or no, this issue is boiling.
Also, people need to stop trolling individuals. It's immature and not called for. I came here to post about something I feel is realllllly walking the line in terms of game "legality" and I am posting about it. I have not once talked down to any of you or attempted to belittle you in any way. I do not single people out to point out their shortcomings or past deeds.
1) This is not a political campaign 2) I only have contempt for the software, not the people 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:18:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds BACON automates player actions, altering game mechanics by removing the need for player participation. It is clearly a violation of the EULA.
Small problem with your interpretation; CCP doesn't agree at this time.
It is not necessary for CCP to agree.
BACON violates the terms of the EULA, with or without recognition from CCP.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Could be they will decide it is LATER and make alterations to keep this type of app from running, but until then it is NOT a EULA violation since only CCP can declare it such.
You are wrong.
The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:20:00 -
[462]
Although extremely lame, I'm grateful this tool exists. CCP can't *****foot around the removal of local anymore.
BAN LOCAL AND BAN ANYONE THAT DISAGREES _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/ |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:24:00 -
[463]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Although extremely lame, I'm grateful this tool exists. CCP can't *****foot around the removal of local anymore.
BAN LOCAL AND BAN ANYONE THAT DISAGREES
this tbqfh
Originally by: Lance Fighter This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:24:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds BACON automates player actions, altering game mechanics by removing the need for player participation. It is clearly a violation of the EULA.
Small problem with your interpretation; CCP doesn't agree at this time.
It is not necessary for CCP to agree.
BACON violates the terms of the EULA, with or without recognition from CCP.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Could be they will decide it is LATER and make alterations to keep this type of app from running, but until then it is NOT a EULA violation since only CCP can declare it such.
You are wrong.
The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point.
Regardless, you can do jack **** if CCP doesn't side with your point of view, aside from quitting, and dealing with the huge number of "Can I haz it?" mails/posts/etc. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
|
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:29:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
It is not necessary for CCP to agree.
BACON violates the terms of the EULA, with or without recognition from CCP.
So, taking CCP to court to force them to enforce their EULA according to your opinion, are you?
Quote:
You are wrong.
The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point.
CCP says it doesn't. When I read the EULA Bacon doesn't appear to violate it in my opinion either. So who is "wrong"?
Simply: CCP has the final say. At this time they have said it doesn't, hence it doesn't. Your opinion may differ, but you don't control the game and its rules.
If they SAY it does, fine with me; it is their game and their rules. In the meantime the screaming is highly entertaining
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
|
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:31:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point.
Regardless, you can do jack **** if CCP doesn't side with your point of view, aside from quitting, and dealing with the huge number of "Can I haz it?" mails/posts/etc.
Obvious troll is barely worth responding to in all honesty.
I consider it worth my time pointing out precisely what is why BACON is bad for Eve. Hopefully, CCP will agree but perhaps they will not.
How I conduct myself, now or in the future, is none of your concern.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Trathen
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:32:00 -
[467]
This thread is too long Like the old A.D.D. jokes Let's go ride bikes now
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easei
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:34:00 -
[468]
All this does is promote semi-AFK gaming. If your too lazy or can't be bothered to actully sit at the computer to play the game, why do you pay the monthly subscription fee?
Wait, I've got it. No really, Brilliant. CCP should offer 2 different subscriptions, one to players who play the game, and the other to players which AFK the game.
Can I get a Dev response regarding which is going to cost more? Thank you in advance.
This is a stupid tool. I sense you have no idea the trouble you've caused.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:41:00 -
[469]
how about where they made them take it down for 30 minutes and make some modifications so that it WOULD be acceptable? |
Segge Bolled
Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:41:00 -
[470]
This:
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds It is not necessary for CCP to agree.
BACON violates the terms of the EULA, with or without recognition from CCP.
and,
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
You are wrong.
The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point.
That. So, could this all mean ...
TAKE THAT, CCP?
Or ... not. I'd wager not.
Especially since all it (BACON) "automates" (as far as I can see AND I use the term "automates" very loosely here) is having to physically look at local, instead it allows you to LISTEN. People have been looking in local IN REAL TIME and practically AUTOMATICALLY (when need be) since Local was introduced. Strangely enough, it hadn't induced a mass hysteria yet. Granted, I haven't read the last 15, 16 (or so?) pages too closely, as I didn't have my pond waders handy. Hopefully I'll get around to it before the lock, the thread clean, or it simply sinks to the bottom of the pond itself.
At the end of the day, it exchanges the stimulus which the user has to react to, if they choose. Nothing more I can see. Though, that is simply my interpretation and probably as wrong as everyone else furiously burning their daily calorie intake here. |
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Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:42:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting.
This
I went looking through all the other BACON posts and did not see one Dev reply to it, and for all we know the OP is talking out his ass saying CCP approved it for the time being. One can only assume at this point that they are discussing the legality of it. |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:43:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
It is not necessary for CCP to agree.
BACON violates the terms of the EULA, with or without recognition from CCP.
So, taking CCP to court to force them to enforce their EULA according to your opinion, are you?
Keep your childish trolling to yourself. It contributes nothing to this discussion.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds You are wrong.
The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point.
CCP says it doesn't. When I read the EULA Bacon doesn't appear to violate it in my opinion either. So who is "wrong"?
Simply: CCP has the final say. At this time they have said it doesn't, hence it doesn't. Your opinion may differ, but you don't control the game and its rules.
If they SAY it does, fine with me; it is their game and their rules. In the meantime the screaming is highly entertaining
"My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer."
"There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate."
That doesn't sound like the rock hard approval you purport.
If anything, BACON is still under review. Hopefully, CCP will soon recognise that it is in violation of the EULA and has enormous potential to damage Eve, by application and by precedent. |
Dictum Factum
Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:46:00 -
[473]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I can't show you where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is ... a violation of the EULA and/or TOS...
Fixed that for you. |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:46:00 -
[474]
CCP please allow Bacon, if nothing more than the fact that it griefs a portion of the community in true EvE fashion |
Vlomini Drayk
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:47:00 -
[475]
ADAPT OR DIE - lolololol
No breaches of the ToS/EULA, I'm signing up for this one baby.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:47:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
"My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer."
"There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate."
That doesn't sound like the rock hard approval you purport.
If anything, BACON is still under review. Hopefully, CCP will soon recognise that it is in violation of the EULA and has enormous potential to damage Eve, by application and by precedent.
Where did I say CCP have rock solid approval? I DIDN'T. I said until CCP says so it is NOT against the EULA. I also said that at this time they have said it ISN'T. I have also said that they may well change that decision. Unlike others in this thread that are proclaiming it is regardless of what CCP says are is going to say. Reading comprehension ftl.
If they declare it a violation, so be it. If they don't, so be it. Until there, it IS NOT. Regardless of what YOU believe.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:49:00 -
[477]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 22/04/2008 01:49:14
Originally by: Dictum Factum
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I can't show you where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is ... a violation of the EULA and/or TOS...
Fixed that for you.
Really, get out of the thread. You have no reason to post here other than to attempt to troll me.
I don't know if you noticed, but there are quite a few people up in arms over this. None of you people (Gemini Sun) have added any constructive conversation to this thread so please get out -- unless you actually have something constructive to add to this discussion.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:51:00 -
[478]
Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 22/04/2008 01:51:37 Siig fails at gramma!
For instance, the term "attempts" is unacceptable, because said trolling was succesfull
aslo lol@irony
what have you "contributed" other than the usual whining?
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:52:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Orion Eridanus
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting.
This
I went looking through all the other BACON posts and did not see one Dev reply to it, and for all we know the OP is talking out his ass saying CCP approved it for the time being. One can only assume at this point that they are discussing the legality of it.
The OP linked a thread with 2 CCP posts saying that at this time they couldn't see any violation. These were made BEFORE release of the product; the originators specifically asked for a clarification.
Those posts ALSO said that they would consult higher up the chain for clarification. Since then the programmers have made alterations to the software (removal of tracking) to accommodate CCP's wishes.
CCP may well say that they have decided that the software indeed violates the useage of their systems, but until then permission HAS been given. CCP appears to be leaning towards "No Violation".
Even if they do rule it doesn't violate they can still encrypt the log server's files and kill the software without too much effort, closing a hole that could be used for more nefarious software. Personally I can see this happening.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 01:55:00 -
[480]
stop! \o/ your infallible logic will hurt their brains
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
|
|
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 02:09:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Segge Bolled This:
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds It is not necessary for CCP to agree.
BACON violates the terms of the EULA, with or without recognition from CCP.
and,
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
You are wrong.
The terms of the EULA are quite clear and BACON violates them. Whether CCP will recognise or choose to overlook this fact is entirely beside the point.
That. So, could this all mean ...
TAKE THAT, CCP?
Or ... not. I'd wager not.
I mean that CCP's response is beside the point when the point is one of valid logic as applied to the functionality of BACON when compared to the terms of the EULA.
CCP's ultimate decision concerning BACON is, of course, of paramount importance.
Originally by: Segge Bolled Especially since all it (BACON) "automates" (as far as I can see AND I use the term "automates" very loosely here) is having to physically look at local, instead it allows you to LISTEN.
Nonetheless, both visually scanning local and mentally processing that data are designated as active player processes by the original game mechanics.
BACON automates these actions by immediately providing the player with salient information, removing the need for player participation.
That violates the EULA by "changing the way in which the game is played".
You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. (EULA 7.A.2.)
Originally by: Segge Bolled People have been looking in local IN REAL TIME and practically AUTOMATICALLY (when need be) since Local was introduced. Strangely enough, it hadn't induced a mass hysteria yet. Granted, I haven't read the last 15, 16 (or so?) pages too closely, as I didn't have my pond waders handy. Hopefully I'll get around to it before the lock, the thread clean, or it simply sinks to the bottom of the pond itself.
At the end of the day, it exchanges the stimulus which the user has to react to, if they choose. Nothing more I can see. Though, that is simply my interpretation and probably as wrong as everyone else furiously burning their daily calorie intake here.
I suggest you consider the usefulness of BACON in alerting the presence of war targets in a crowded system, where scanning and processing the data provided by the game would be a lengthy manual operation for the unskilled.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Dictum Factum
Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 02:09:00 -
[482]
Perhaps, if this software is determined to be against the EULA and those that wish to see the removal of local get their way as well, an acceptable alternative would be to have gates broadcast to all ships in the system the name of the pilot and their ship type. After all, if a gate can launch you millions of miles through space, it certainly has the means to broadcast a radio signal relating to that activity. That way, everyone is happy!
I know less than you think I do. |
Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 02:17:00 -
[483]
Edited by: Orion Eridanus on 22/04/2008 02:20:38
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Taken from other thread. Bolded the important part.
As of yet there has been no other DEV reply say it is or isn't legal.
Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
|
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 02:18:00 -
[484]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Where did I say CCP have rock solid approval? I DIDN'T. I said until CCP says so it is NOT against the EULA. I also said that at this time they have said it ISN'T.
"There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA..." is not the same thing as saying "BACON does not violate the EULA".
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I have also said that they may well change that decision. Unlike others in this thread that are proclaiming it is regardless of what CCP says are is going to say. Reading comprehension ftl.
Quite so. You fail to comprehend the very clear manner in which BACON violates the EULA.
CCP have reserved the right to review whether it violates the EULA and I presume that they are still doing so, given the opposition to it from a large proportion of the player base.
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If they declare it a violation, so be it. If they don't, so be it. Until there, it IS NOT. Regardless of what YOU believe.
You are still wrong. I will put that down to your own lack of comprehension and move on.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 02:38:00 -
[485]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 22/04/2008 02:39:03
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Quite so. You fail to comprehend the very clear manner in which BACON violates the EULA.
There is no clean manner. Bacon does NOT interface with the client in any way. It does NOT automate any task in any way. It DOES read the files, much like other applications. It DOES sound an alarm based on those log files, much like other applications. The warning is NOT "automating" functions inside the game, which is directly the definition of a macro. It does NOT allow you to do anything if you were not at the keyboard. YOU still have to perform any actions.
Quote:
CCP have reserved the right to review whether it violates the EULA and I presume that they are still doing so, given the opposition to it from a large proportion of the player base.
"Large portion of the player base". All I can say is lol. This thread is pretty much 50/50, and only 17-18 pages so far? A freighter ganking thread generates more interest in less time
Of course CCP is internally debating this, and they should. It is a new method of doing things and its impact MUST be evaluated. Even if this tool is not in violation, is the TECHNIQUE likely to cause issues with other tools not so benign. CCP must take the overall effects of this software, how it interacts with their systems and what other things could do in relation to these in order to decide their next step.
I fully expect that this will be declared legal. I also fully expect that no word will be made until they have a plan in place to allow submission of logfiles rather than cut-paste, and plans laid out to encrypt those logs. I feel they will have to take these steps to keep more nefarious programs from using the same techniques. I would LIKE to see this type of functionality added into the game.
Quote:
You are still wrong. I will put that down to your own lack of comprehension and move on.
lol, I was thinking the same about you In the meantime, the night is young and my guns are rusting. See everyone in game...
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 02:49:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme stop! \o/ your infallible logic will hurt their brains
I find it amusing that every single one of your posts in this thread are of the "Ha! Somebody else made a counterargument, so now I'm going to poast a 'take that!' response"
Honestly, I can't find a single constructive post from you in this whole thread. _____________________________________________________________________________
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 02:54:00 -
[487]
Originally by: DroneBay Diva
Originally by: Tortun Nahme stop! \o/ your infallible logic will hurt their brains
I find it amusing that every single one of your posts in this thread are of the "Ha! Somebody else made a counterargument, so now I'm going to poast a 'take that!' response"
Honestly, I can't find a single constructive post from you in this whole thread.
yes, because this post added so much
funny, I can't find a single constructive post from you in this whole thread either. Mostly just whining
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
|
LittleTerror
Caldari Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:02:00 -
[488]
If every carebear has some piece of **** 3rd party program that tells them when I enter local I think i'll just stop loging in because what would be the ******* point, its hard enough already with just local. |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:05:00 -
[489]
Edited by: Matrixcvd on 22/04/2008 03:07:42 Only people i see getting excited about this are the ones that think they need it the most, the people who are most vunerable to wts, to gankers in 0.0 and lo sec, its like moses parting the red sea... the people that need every crutch, every change in game mehcanics to suite their own lack of ability and effort. its just ridiculous, might as well ban nanos, high sec ganking, and everything else in this game that actually makes it fun, unpredictable, difficult and life like.
Rules are rules and of course they are made to be broken, there has been enough accusations of impropriety at CCP to warrent suscipision at every turn, and a partial acceptance will be enough to spurn the tinfoil hat club to start chompin at the bit
There is no question in breaks EULA its pretty clear. Now you can speculate why CCP has a passive nod so far to this till you are blue in the face, but it should be very clear to all of you that anything like this, is a significant step in the wrong direction.
Whether it breaks TOS/EULA is not the question, if people really feel this mod is furthers the true essence of what Eve has been about for the last 5 years (over 2 of which i have been here for) then its a sad day for this game and a sick turning away from what Eve has always been about. So get your audible beeps up, put your diapers on and get full dose of teeter toys.. cause this is just a disgrace
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:10:00 -
[490]
Originally by: LittleTerror If every carebear has some piece of **** 3rd party program that tells them when I enter local I think i'll just stop loging in because what would be the ******* point, its hard enough already with just local.
utilizing the open source Bacon code, I have begun developing an ap, that utilizes an alt in every system, that will warn us when LittleTerror logs in, and where he is at all times
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
|
|
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:11:00 -
[491]
Originally by: Faife I love mobs. Everyone disses hydra while ignoring Razor, Goonswarm, and themselves for using Vent.
/facepalm
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:13:00 -
[492]
I would be interested to see what would happen to Eve if all of the carebears got their way.
1. Allow Bacon 2. Eliminate Suicide Ganks 3. Nerf empire wars (again) 4. Get rid of probing people out in missions 5. Boost sentry guns in lowsec
etc etc.
I would be interested to see how long Eve actually lasts. Eventually all you would be left with are the people who sit in highsec all day and accumulate 'stuff', because the game would be *****-ass boring for everyone else. _____________________________________________________________________________
|
LittleTerror
Caldari Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:16:00 -
[493]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
Originally by: LittleTerror If every carebear has some piece of **** 3rd party program that tells them when I enter local I think i'll just stop loging in because what would be the ******* point, its hard enough already with just local.
utilizing the open source Bacon code, I have begun developing an ap, that utilizes an alt in every system, that will warn us when LittleTerror logs in, and where he is at all times
That was just |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:18:00 -
[494]
really, and yet you took the time out of your busy life to comment on it!
I feel blessed
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
|
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:24:00 -
[495]
Originally by: Cori4n Edited by: Cori4n on 21/04/2008 22:04:26
Originally by: Miki Fin 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site.
As you noted this would ban every EVE-related tool in existence.
But I don't really understand why everyone likes to quote the EULA here. As it is, CCP has stated clearly that BACON is presently to be treated as EULA-compliant. Neither its author nor its users will get banned for it. If CCP decides to outlaw it (I do hope they don't), they will either claim it now counts as breaking one of the EULA's terms, or, if it doesn't, they will modify the EULA so that it does. The EULA's actual text is, to be honest, irrelevant...
They don't have to go that far, they can simply state that it misuses data created by the client and is not allowed just as replacing your cache files, files generated by EVE, is not allowed.
|
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:38:00 -
[496]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby There is no clean manner. Bacon does NOT interface with the client in any way.
It automates the observation of local for incoming/outgoing players. You can argue all you want, but in the end the this is still the plain and simple truth. BACON is a local monitoring macro that is fed by the use of a logserver designed for bug hunting. |
darklegionca
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:39:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Dictum Factum
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings.
You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA.
You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting.
how about you just stop posting right now...... |
Proxay
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:43:00 -
[498]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Although extremely lame, I'm grateful this tool exists. CCP can't *****foot around the removal of local anymore.
BAN LOCAL AND BAN ANYONE THAT DISAGREES
Quote 'dis if you're down. |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 03:59:00 -
[499]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Dictum Factum
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings.
You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA.
You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting.
Siigari, check the OP links to the other thread. A CCP dev states that it doesn't violate the EULA.It also states that CCP reserves the right to change its opinion. you cannot expect for CCP to come out and post an official thread saying what they already said.Why?cause they already said it was legal So,what the CCP dev posted is CCP word. Now,if in the future they change their mind,that is their right. But as far as the community,I don't think anyone has any business demanding for the tool to be banned for the simple reason that as CCP stated, the tool doesn't violate any EULA. Now,if the tool violates the EULA,then fine,ban it.But again, read CCP statement in the other thread.CCP has said the tool doesn't violate the EULA. That is good enough |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.22 04:00:00 -
[500]
Edited by: Cori4n on 22/04/2008 04:02:01 Edited by: Cori4n on 22/04/2008 03:59:48
Originally by: Orion Eridanus I went looking through all the other BACON posts and did not see one Dev reply to it, and for all we know the OP is talking out his ass saying CCP approved it for the time being. One can only assume at this point that they are discussing the legality of it.
Why don't you look in the EVE Technology Lab then
EDIT: 512th |
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.22 04:04:00 -
[501]
Edited by: DroneBay Diva on 22/04/2008 04:04:48
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Quote 'dis if you're down.
You sir, seem to have mistaken this for a Goonswarm thread. |
Dante Cyberon
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Posted - 2008.04.22 04:21:00 -
[502]
Edited by: Dante Cyberon on 22/04/2008 04:21:00
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Dictum Factum
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings.
You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA.
You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting.
Siigari, check the OP links to the other thread. A CCP dev states that it doesn't violate the EULA.It also states that CCP reserves the right to change its opinion. you cannot expect for CCP to come out and post an official thread saying what they already said.Why?cause they already said it was legal So,what the CCP dev posted is CCP word. Now,if in the future they change their mind,that is their right. But as far as the community,I don't think anyone has any business demanding for the tool to be banned for the simple reason that as CCP stated, the tool doesn't violate any EULA. Now,if the tool violates the EULA,then fine,ban it.But again, read CCP statement in the other thread.CCP has said the tool doesn't violate the EULA. That is good enough
A GM said it "Appeared to be within the rules" and a CCP dev said "Please do not take this as official CCP approval (Or something along those lines)
Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc.
Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.22 05:15:00 -
[503]
Originally by: Dante Cyberon
Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc.
Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero
Uh, GMs > Devs as far as banning you is concerned... |
DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.22 05:28:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Dante Cyberon
Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc.
Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero
Uh, GMs > Devs as far as banning you is concerned...
Tbh, CCP are not going to ban anybody for developing something they previously said was legal, even if they do change their minds.
While I do not like this product, and I think it is bad for Eve as a whole, I do not wish to see the creators of it banned. |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 05:57:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Dante Cyberon Edited by: Dante Cyberon on 22/04/2008 04:21:00
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Dictum Factum
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 3) Most of the people here are on my side so it would not be wise to criticize my feelings.
You see, that right there is your problem. Logic has nothing to do with feelings. It does, however, has everything to do with facts. In other words, no matter how you feel, the fact is that CCP does not find this program to be in violation of the EULA.
You show me where CCP has flat out stated that the program BACON with 100% certainty is not a violation of the EULA and/or TOS and I will stop posting.
Siigari, check the OP links to the other thread. A CCP dev states that it doesn't violate the EULA.It also states that CCP reserves the right to change its opinion. you cannot expect for CCP to come out and post an official thread saying what they already said.Why?cause they already said it was legal So,what the CCP dev posted is CCP word. Now,if in the future they change their mind,that is their right. But as far as the community,I don't think anyone has any business demanding for the tool to be banned for the simple reason that as CCP stated, the tool doesn't violate any EULA. Now,if the tool violates the EULA,then fine,ban it.But again, read CCP statement in the other thread.CCP has said the tool doesn't violate the EULA. That is good enough
A GM said it "Appeared to be within the rules" and a CCP dev said "Please do not take this as official CCP approval (Or something along those lines)
Gm's while being CCP are not the Developers, all we want is an official mark of approval from a senior CCP developer that does not have a disclaimer other than "We hold the right to change our minds" etc.
Bah stupid alt -Blane Xero
Here is what GM Grimmi said exactly:
"There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate."
That is good enough me says.
As far as GMs and devs,although I never worked for CCP,I have worked for Acclaim Games Inc and I am ready to bet that GMs and devs have talked about it.In addition GMs are trained to know what breaks the EULA and ToS. A GM is saying it doesn't,good enough. And again, if CCP changes their mind, they will let the creator and the users know.
But,you see,I think the main problem I think is that people don't like change. |
Dictum Factum
Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:24:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix ...people don't like change.
Others do not like to share advantages that they already have, either.
I know less than you think I do. |
DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:38:00 -
[507]
Edited by: DroneBay Diva on 22/04/2008 06:39:41
Originally by: Dictum Factum
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix ...people don't like change.
Others do not like to share advantages that they already have, either.
This must be where you signature comes into play. I have never used this program or any other like it, and I'm pretty sure I can say the same for most of the most vocal people in this thread as well. I personally use Vent, Evemon, and occasionally EFT. None of these programs, however, give mean automated system which gives me a real-time ingame advantage.
And to be perfectly honest, I don't begrudge the people who use this. If CCP has not deemed it illegal, then by all means, take every advantage you can get. That is what Eve is all about.
What I do not understand, however, is the people who honestly can't see how this fundamentally changes the way the game is played. And yes, I am willing to quit over this, because it is a significant nerf on my playstyle, to the point where I believe it will be more frustrating, and more like work, than actual fun. I am, however, going to wait the 2 months til my subscription runs out to see what comes of this. And no, you can't have my stuff, it's spoken for. _____________________________________________________________________________
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Trind2222
Amarr Soliders Of Eve
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:39:00 -
[508]
Please ccp investigate BACON.
Hope this tool will be illegal, this tool supports afk players.
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Dictum Factum
Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:41:00 -
[509]
Originally by: DroneBay Diva I have never used this program or any other like it.
I did not state that you did. Perhaps you should read my post again.
I know less than you think I do. |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:44:00 -
[510]
Originally by: Trind2222 Please ccp investigate BACON.
Hope this tool will be illegal, this tool supports afk players.
I think each person can and has the right to view this tool or any differently than you. You think it supports AFK,while I think it can tactical possibilities. We can go like this for ages EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
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Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:36:00 -
[511]
Whoever created this, I hope you get what you deserve. Take whatever meaning you wish from that.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:36:00 -
[512]
Quote: You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. (EULA 7.A.2.)
The only problem with this line is that, when it comes down to it, it applies to Ventrilo and EVEmon as well. Both replace the need to use the game itself to gather information for personal use, and instead get it from a source outside-of-game. The reason these are okay, I'm guessing, is CCP has basically said "these do not appear to violate the TOS". Or maybe they have never even said that much... not really sure.
Anyway, I would have thought CCP would come right out and ban BACON. But they didn't... and I have my suspicions as to why. There may be a very specific reason that they do not think this functionality is a bad thing. Who knows? Maybe they already have something like it in the works...
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Trind2222
Amarr Soliders Of Eve
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:37:00 -
[513]
Edited by: Trind2222 on 22/04/2008 07:40:48
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Trind2222 Please ccp investigate BACON.
Hope this tool will be illegal, this tool supports afk players.
I think each person can and has the right to view this tool or any differently than you. You think it supports AFK,while I think it can tactical possibilities. We can go like this for ages
Yes helps press crlt-q if outnumbered by 10 guys. Don't let a tool do work for you Take chance play eve and engage the maby you can win or you get a rely good death in eve.
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:00:00 -
[514]
Originally by: Dictum Factum
Originally by: DroneBay Diva I have never used this program or any other like it.
I did not state that you did. Perhaps you should read my post again.
My understanding of your post was that the people against Bacon are people who privately use a similar program. While I'm sure some do (and I hope they get the nerfbat too, for what it's worth), I'm equally sure that the majority of Eve does not. _____________________________________________________________________________
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Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:06:00 -
[515]
I don't use this program, nor does anyone in my alliance. If i get caught being afk out in space well then I ain't leaving until me or the agressor is dead, which is the way it should be.
Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
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Vardemis
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:12:00 -
[516]
There are severe issues tied to any use of the log server. Most of them have been mentioned here before.
1st) It supports being safely afk in insecure space.
2nd) If it can play a beep you can easily modify it to update a webpage with the information gathered. With a few alts in chokepoint systems between regions or constellation you can get a very accurate measurement of fleet movements, just by running a few trial accounts on a pc somewhere, without paying attention to it.
With this kind of information you can easily mount a gang in advance or just evade the incoming forces.
If you go a step further, the webpage processing the added information through bacon can either send an information to IRC/ICQ/MSN/Email/Cellphone to ensure everyone who needs it will get it.
The additional work for that is quite minimal.
3rd) You could just do a minor modification and do an automated CTRL+Q or just shut down the eve client through windows/linux/macos scripts that are triggered. In which case it would fall into the category of macroing. Playing a sound is just a way to circumvent the rules of the game.
Solution: The only solution I can think of is removing the log server from the client entirely, even encryption would be suboptimal since there would still be chance that it is hacked. |
isdisco3
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:45:00 -
[517]
I can tell you that the only thing I'll be voting on for CSM is people who are against this completely idiotic idea. It's ridiculous that CCP hasn't disallowed this already. |
Darth Tom
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:46:00 -
[518]
Please ban this program, it breaks the spirit of the game, if your gonna let it live add a auto warp and cloak option why don't ya |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:48:00 -
[519]
Well, I had 3 BACONers in a belt last night, couldn't even get them with a login trap on the belt.
Got them with a suicide tackler. (0.5) sec.
If that's what CCP seek to endorse, then it sucks tbh. |
Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 09:16:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Kvirie
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby There is no clean manner. Bacon does NOT interface with the client in any way.
It automates the observation of local for incoming/outgoing players. You can argue all you want, but in the end the this is still the plain and simple truth. BACON is a local monitoring macro that is fed by the use of a logserver designed for bug hunting.
What is the difference then with home grown daytrading tools, which use the exact same logserver generated logfiles, this is a category of tools which has far more impact on EVE, as it enables a very few to have much more impact then anyone else who has to simply use the normal in game tools.
I don't see anyone spooked about a single guy pushing round the markets with a distinct overweight of speed, detail level of data and completeness of data in real time.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 09:20:00 -
[521]
Originally by: Koala Bare What is the difference then with home grown daytrading tools, which use the exact same logserver generated logfiles, this is a category of tools which has far more impact on EVE, as it enables a very few to have much more impact then anyone else who has to simply use the normal in game tools.
I don't see anyone spooked about a single guy pushing round the markets with a distinct overweight of speed, detail level of data and completeness of data in real time.
How does that work then? Can you go afk and let those programs collect data for you, and warn you audibly when it's time to buy/sell, or do you have to visit region markets and actively collect the data?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Koala Bare
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 09:20:00 -
[522]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman Well, I had 3 BACONers in a belt last night, couldn't even get them with a login trap on the belt.
Got them with a suicide tackler. (0.5) sec.
If that's what CCP seek to endorse, then it sucks tbh.
You're not very good then :P How many times do you have to post the same thing again and again :P Come on, it's fine to be ****ed off, but this isn't CAOD, so keep it constructive. That's the only angle of arguments CCP listens to either way...
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:00:00 -
[523]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: techzer0 Alt scouts are bad enough, but cloaked alt scouts alerting you from several systems out that Reds are on the move without even having to check the screen?
The specific functionality that allowed for remote or group reporting from systems away was removed. I think it is a good choice to have done so. As to what is left, again there is going to be very vocal opponents and very quiet supporters. (No one screams and shout about something the speak good of... ) Imho, if it doesn't break the rules... who gives a f---. There is so much else to actually worry about. (I'll just let CCP mull this over without the drama bomb.)
And your point is ? It takes a capable programmer 1/2 an hour to implement that functionality back to the program after he is a bit familiar with the code (after all the source is available).
I could create a log server and logging functionality on custom requests without any problem the posibilities are even more dangerous than the prior version was ...
One more reason for local to go ... --- SIG --- Goumindong for CSM. |
Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:14:00 -
[524]
How long until a Macro shows up via parsing the log-file so as to warp and jump between systems, rat and hell warp off to a safe and cloak based on things the log file can tell you? 100% afk income in a 100% safe manner than needs no player input whatsoever. If the log-file is going to be able to tell us when someone enters the system it should certainly allow for all the above.
This needs an end put to it now before more bull**** happens.
Oh and... yeah, Hydra.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:17:00 -
[525]
Originally by: Ridley Tree How long until a Macro shows up via parsing the log-file so as to warp and jump between systems, rat and hell warp off to a safe and cloak based on things the log file can tell you? 100% afk income in a 100% safe manner than needs no player input whatsoever. If the log-file is going to be able to tell us when someone enters the system it should certainly allow for all the above.
I'm not sure if they use the logfile, but what you described has already existed for years. Actually, real macros probably make full use of the logfiles, and raw server data, and anything else you can possibly imagine. I mean, come on... wake up?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:31:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Koala Bare You're not very good then :P How many times do you have to post the same thing again and again :P Come on, it's fine to be ****ed off, but this isn't CAOD, so keep it constructive. That's the only angle of arguments CCP listens to either way...
lolwut? Have some pills. Then tell me how to get a Hictor (or an inty if you don't want to catch it) in, across 12au, out of warp, lock, scram. Before an aligned retriever warps out.
I told you what happened. I told you what I did.
I can't prove BACON usage, no more than I can prove BACON tied to a dock macro or anything else.
What I can prove is using alts to suicide tackle actually works, and BACON can't protect you from it.
Do I need to be in a big alliance like yours before I'm allowed to post or something?
--- Boring & Banal. Just how CCP like it. |
Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Soul of Fountain
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:33:00 -
[527]
To all people claiming bacon is horrible what do you think about for example keyboards or mouses that can bind multiple keys to a single key?
It takes as much skill to press f1 through f8 as it does watching local.
If I had a say in it I would advice CCP to make a way to create addons that indeed does allow visual warnings based on trigger events or binding whatever keys to whatever you want. Because quite frankly it has ZERO influence on the skill of a player but DOES increase the playability of this game (pressing f1 through f8 is ******** repetition, constantly being focused on local chat is ******** repetition etc etc.) --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:39:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Wet Ferret I'm not sure if they use the logfile, but what you described has already existed for years. Actually, real macros probably make full use of the logfiles, and raw server data, and anything else you can possibly imagine. I mean, come on... wake up?
My experience with Macros shows them to be less than responsive most of the time. Regardless it would be a much greater reason to disable the methods by which BACON, and any other Macro, are capable of getting this information. |
Hei'di
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:40:00 -
[529]
Originally by: isdisco3 I can tell you that the only thing I'll be voting on for CSM is people who are against this completely idiotic idea. It's ridiculous that CCP hasn't disallowed this already.
/signed |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 11:26:00 -
[530]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/04/2008 11:32:47
Originally by: Matrixcvd There is no question in breaks EULA its pretty clear. Now you can speculate why CCP has a passive nod so far to this till you are blue in the face, but it should be very clear to all of you that anything like this, is a significant step in the wrong direction.
You are absolutely correct. My own intention was to establish the EULA violation firmly first, before broadening attack to analyze the negative effects of BACON upon Eve.
But the EULA is not the central issue by any means.
Originally by: Matrixcvd Whether it breaks TOS/EULA is not the question, if people really feel this mod is furthers the true essence of what Eve has been about for the last 5 years (over 2 of which i have been here for) then its a sad day for this game and a sick turning away from what Eve has always been about. So get your audible beeps up, put your diapers on and get full dose of teeter toys.. cause this is just a disgrace
Indeed.
Here are some reasons BACON is bad for Eve:-
1. Allowing BACON sets a precedent for allowing third-party applications to alter practical aspects of game play. Alterations to game mechanics are the sole prerogative of CCP. Players should only be allowed to suggest changes, not implement them.
2. BACON automates active player processes. This diminishes player skill, redresses game play balances which rely upon that player skill, encourages lazy, unskilled or afk play.
3. BACON provides a software platform that can be easily developed to provide further automation. Extended versions of BACON are already likely to be active in Eve. Allowing this approach to modifying the game would make policing extensions of this platform impossible.
4. BACON diminishes the reputation of CCP for being a games company that has zero tolerance for game play automation.
I am sure there are other negative effects of BACON and I hope others will supply them. CCP need to act by removing any chance of this kind of application altering the game they have created and they alone have the right to modify. |
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Dungheap
Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.04.22 11:39:00 -
[531]
grats to hydra for going public and putting this in ccp's face. since programs like BACON are already in use, ccp will have to level the field by declaring them all legal or not.
i doubt it will be allowed to be in use much longer; there's just too much potential for abuse and automation. sadly, with ccp's track record, the response will be neither a fix or a solution, but a knee-jerk reaction nerfing something to make programs like this useless.
until that day tho, the gm's hands will be full with several hundred petitions over lost accounts, once hacked versions become distributed.
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eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 11:40:00 -
[532]
you people make me laugh!
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2008.04.22 12:21:00 -
[533]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 22/04/2008 12:23:33
Ah FFS, so much for the plan to remove local to make the game fairer. :-/
And they say It's CCP Approved? I don't believe you.
Not from what CCP have said in their dev blogs and their audio meetngs. The same reason they never allowed the GUI to be customisable so people don't make crazy releases that are full of macro buttons etc...
Where would it all stop, approving 50 odd third party tools for the power gamers?
I hope this program gets labelled an exploit and stops working with a patch.
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Dexion Slayer
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 13:23:00 -
[534]
Originally by: isdisco3 I can tell you that the only thing I'll be voting on for CSM is people who are against this completely idiotic idea. It's ridiculous that CCP hasn't disallowed this already.
Agreed, if were gonna arpove this why not aprove of the every other macro program out there and make it open source.
Hell lets all just sit afk watching tv while our scripts and programs play eve for us and just post our killmails off the combat log at the end of a long day of macroing?. |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 13:53:00 -
[535]
The main issue for many pilots,I think, is that they don't like change,especially because it would mean to get used to a new way of playing. But again,I would suggest you consider this tool as follow:
1.It is the Eve version of a military plane radar.Would you say that the military is not moral using a radar?Would you say that the military is always afk while using radar?I don't think so.
2.CCP has approved the tool
3.Take a deep breath and move on. There are other things that need CCP's attention and require for a community to stand up to them
The bottom line is that for many corps/alliances,EveOnline is a daily war. Any military force worth of the name needs a radar.Bacon provides that |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 13:59:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The main issue for many pilots,I think, is that they don't like change,especially because it would mean to get used to a new way of playing. But again,I would suggest you consider this tool as follow:
1.It is the Eve version of a military plane radar.Would you say that the military is not moral using a radar?Would you say that the military is always afk while using radar?I don't think so.
2.CCP has approved the tool
3.Take a deep breath and move on. There are other things that need CCP's attention and require for a community to stand up to them
The bottom line is that for many corps/alliances,EveOnline is a daily war. Any military force worth of the name needs a radar.Bacon provides that
God, you're just not very bright, are you?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Father Dibbles
Self Aggrandisement Society
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Posted - 2008.04.22 13:59:00 -
[537]
This thread is depressing, the responses are depressing, the people who make 'tools' like this are depressing, and now I'm depressed.
Now I can fly around safe in the view that I am automatically at a disadvantage because everyone else is using 'tools' like these instead of playing in EVE's raw state, for the simple reason(s) they can/want to compete/don't know how to play any other way.
Father Father help us, send us guidance from above.
May god save me, if it is right that he should do so...
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:15:00 -
[538]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix ... Any military force worth of the name needs a radar. ...
These days a modern military has a cyber command dedicated to disrupting their enemies computer networks.
Doesn't exactly fit in the world of internet spaceships.
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Endeva
Caldari Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:24:00 -
[539]
ccp ffs perma ban all ppl for using this **** and lets play eve online not afk eve
Eve needs changes asap |
Sidewayzracer
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:30:00 -
[540]
Now i was doing some asking arround and general flaming people for using this program and stumbled upon a few Hydra members and users of BACON. I have a few quotes from them id like to share and i was wondering if CCP and the rest of the player base can confirm this.
Ulath Safire > u get 3 - 5 SEC warning. before local updates..
Sidewayzracer > hold u said it tells you some1 entered the system b4 u would normal c them enter the local channle?
FisherKing > when u enter a system... the logs are updated first... before u enter local..
FisherKing > so..3-5 sec warning.. depending on how much lag.. u have
PLZ Discuss this
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eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:42:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Sidewayzracer PLZ Discuss this
heh heh - that's the way the logserver works and unless they drop local announces from it (or use some kind of encryption) then tools like this are here to stay...
a while ago i'd been working on something similar to act as a remote intel bot for major alliances - dropping pilots names into an intel channel... you can bet that there's plenty of this stuff already going on out there - long before bacon; all bacon has done is bring it to the frenzied drooling mouths of the spastic masses...
and now they've open sourced it - any 13-yr old script kiddie that can write hello world in winforms is LOVING life...
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:48:00 -
[542]
Originally by: Sidewayzracer Now i was doing some asking arround and general flaming people for using this program and stumbled upon a few Hydra members and users of BACON. I have a few quotes from them id like to share and i was wondering if CCP and the rest of the player base can confirm this.
Ulath Safire > u get 3 - 5 SEC warning. before local updates..
Sidewayzracer > hold u said it tells you some1 entered the system b4 u would normal c them enter the local channle?
FisherKing > when u enter a system... the logs are updated first... before u enter local..
FisherKing > so..3-5 sec warning.. depending on how much lag.. u have
PLZ Discuss this
So is there a built in delay before someone appears in local or is this purely lag related?
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Haleuth
Amarr Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:54:00 -
[543]
I wonder where this will all end?
How about you modify the program to tell me when someone has out bid my buy/sell orders. What about an audible warning when each kernite rock pops, so i can afk mine better. Even better would be if you could modify it to give me a warning when my tank isnt going to hold,preferably before i warp into the mission/leave the station.
You see what im saying??
I find this program isnt in the spirit of eve online. The ccp devs should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this. The EULA isn't worth a stitch now imo. No difference between bacon and using a macro for mining.
Haleuth |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:57:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Haleuth The ccp devs should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this.
You say that as if you (or anyone else for that matter) haven't given an ounce of thought to why CCP hasn't disallowed it.
Or... have you?
Have you considered that there might be a logical reason for that?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
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Sidewayzracer
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:58:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Haleuth The ccp devs should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this.
You say that as if you (or anyone else for that matter) haven't given an ounce of thought to why CCP hasn't disallowed it.
Or... have you?
Have you considered that there might be a logical reason for that?
That so called logical reason seems to be rather illogical tbfh go figure
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 14:59:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
You say that as if you (or anyone else for that matter) haven't given an ounce of thought to why CCP hasn't disallowed it.
Or... have you?
Have you considered that there might be a logical reason for that?
They haven't disallowed it because they can't enforce a ban. It's the players that use this that should be ashamed of themselves. I firmly believe CCP will do whatever they can to cull this blatant cheating.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:03:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Haleuth Even better would be if you could modify it to give me a warning when my tank isnt going to hold
that is an excellent suggestion and very very doable...
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KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:14:00 -
[548]
LOL! 19 full pages of epic whining! This is great! Keep it up girls, this stuff is funnier than suiciding 30 noobs with a SmartBombAgeddon!
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:16:00 -
[549]
If this gets allowed it's another blow to pira... Suprise deconstruction. We've had enough of that, it's difficult to catch aware players already, wanna make it afk business?
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Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:22:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Karentaki Edited by: Karentaki on 21/04/2008 20:54:34 I just looked up the EULA and despite what CCP have said, I still feel this program breaches it:
Originally by: EVE ONLINE EULA CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
EDIT:
Originally by: TERMS OF SERVICE 21. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game. ... 29. You will not encourage others to break these rules or any rules set forth in relation to EVE OnlineÆs game service or web site.
The red bold text refers to third-party software which modifies the UI (sound is included in the UI), or otherwise imparts beneficial effects on the player (Alerts of war targets qualify as this).
EDIT: Also added some stuff from the TOS which outlaws all third-party apps unless they are expressly permitted by CCP (as is the case with EveMon and others)
Now, if anyone wishes to say that this is NOT in breach of the EULA, please explain how.
First Bold: Your not modifying anything! Your not changing how the game is played either your changing how you react to the game not the playing of the game as it does not affect gameplay for anyone else the gameplay itself is not changing.
2nd Bold: Your NOT MODIFYING ANYTHING! 2nd part of that your not gaining beneficial actions you wouldn't otherwise have in the normal game play. i.e. local and standings
last bold: Your not creating any 3rd party apps for the game your creating them for the logs that the log server produces so it would be more closely related to apps for the logserver but thats not covered. Even then its for the logs and not any of CCPs software if ya have a problem with it ask them to remove the logserver. The last part of this bold is ******** because CCP has already stated in another post these are offcially not breaking any rules so encouraging others to use is is not any violation.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:24:00 -
[551]
The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:24:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
Originally by: Karentaki STUFF
First Bold: Your not modifying anything! Your not changing how the game is played either your changing how you react to the game not the playing of the game as it does not affect gameplay for anyone else the gameplay itself is not changing.
2nd Bold: Your NOT MODIFYING ANYTHING! 2nd part of that your not gaining beneficial actions you wouldn't otherwise have in the normal game play. i.e. local and standings
last bold: Your not creating any 3rd party apps for the game your creating them for the logs that the log server produces so it would be more closely related to apps for the logserver but thats not covered. Even then its for the logs and not any of CCPs software if ya have a problem with it ask them to remove the logserver. The last part of this bold is ******** because CCP has already stated in another post these are offcially not breaking any rules so encouraging others to use is is not any violation.
That's just bending words so they suit you.
This is****gotry, no more, no less.
You have my utmost contempt.
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:25:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Please do share you idea of a countermeasure against this.
Please.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:27:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
I weep for your lack of brain.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Oh, well that's just fine and dandy then. Hey fellas, let's create a program that lets us warp directly to any player in a system. I mean, if the carebears don't like it, they can just create a program to counter it. That's how Eve should be played. Create a program that does what you want.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:28:00 -
[555]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/04/2008 15:33:51
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth First Bold: Your not modifying anything! Your not changing how the game is played either your changing how you react to the game not the playing of the game as it does not affect gameplay for anyone else the gameplay itself is not changing.
2nd Bold: Your NOT MODIFYING ANYTHING! 2nd part of that your not gaining beneficial actions you wouldn't otherwise have in the normal game play. i.e. local and standings
last bold: Your not creating any 3rd party apps for the game your creating them for the logs that the log server produces so it would be more closely related to apps for the logserver but thats not covered. Even then its for the logs and not any of CCPs software if ya have a problem with it ask them to remove the logserver. The last part of this bold is ******** because CCP has already stated in another post these are offcially not breaking any rules so encouraging others to use is is not any violation.
Please make the effort to read at least the last two or three pages of thread.
Your points have already been dealt with in full and you are completely wrong on every count.
Try here.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:33:00 -
[556]
even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:34:00 -
[557]
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
They could start by banning all it's vocal supporters.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:35:00 -
[558]
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
They should alter logfile code so it broke bacon.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:35:00 -
[559]
Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 22/04/2008 15:28:16
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
I weep for your lack of brain.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Oh, well that's just fine and dandy then. Hey fellas, let's create a program that lets us warp directly to any player in a system. I mean, if the carebears don't like it, they can just create a program to counter it. That's how Eve should be played. Create a program that does what you want.
A question: Is this BRUCE's official stance on this issue?
Ki An, this is my personal stance. I am in no leadership position at BRUCE and I don't speak for anyone but myself.
I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:36:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 22/04/2008 15:37:48
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
Great point... I do remember a game once cant remember what its called. Anyway when you started the EXE it scanned your computers active processes. If it found a process named the same as a hack program it instantly banned you. I think it was a CS 1.6 server mod, not sure though. So when you joined the server and auto downloaded the mod or something.
Could CCP legally employ that? An active scan of your computers active processes paired up to a list of known hack/cheat programs for insta banning?
*you start eve and BOOM "we have dectected eve altering content on your computer and we exorcise our right to ban you forever."*
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:37:00 -
[561]
Originally by: Euriti
That's just bending words so they suit you.
BACON itself is technically not a violation of the EULA, but it does require a bit of knowledge of software architecture to understand that.
The normally-bannable "bots" intercept data between the client and the server and modify it. BACON simply watches the logs without modifying them and then alerts you when an important change happens - not dissimilar to using the API to alert you when you sold something.
However, the fact that you need to understand the architecture to see the difference between BACON and am Aimbot, I think, shows exactly how invasive it is to gameplay regardless of technicalities.
I don't like BACON because I don't like the fact that a logged chatroom is used as an intelligence tool in the first place. It seemed dumb from the moment I signed up for EvE (I still don't know why they didn't make local function the same way as newb corp chat in the first place) and I merely tolerate it, though I would have to agree everyone running BACON will have me second guess that (no that's not a threat to CCP).
4 years later, I hope CCP will risk a major change to the way EvE is played and replace Local (counterintuitive to everyone) with "defensive scanners" or the like.
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Aram Thracius
Amarr SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:37:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Malcanis I feel sorry for anyone who thinks they need a tool like this.
Me too ------------------------------ We are all doomed! |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:37:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 22/04/2008 15:28:16
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The bottom line guys is that CCP has approved that tool and so there is no point,nor good reason to discuss. If you don't want to use it,don't use it.If you want to use it,use it. It is each pilot's choice and no one has any business telling a pilot how to play,from the moment the pilot doesn't break the EULA and ToS. And CCP has said that as of now BACON doesn't violate the EULA or the ToS. So,all of these discussions are pointless.
I weep for your lack of brain.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
And if you are so much against such a tool,create a 3rd party tool that acts as countermeasure. You create a tool that allows a small advantage and then your opponent creates something that counters your invention.
Oh, well that's just fine and dandy then. Hey fellas, let's create a program that lets us warp directly to any player in a system. I mean, if the carebears don't like it, they can just create a program to counter it. That's how Eve should be played. Create a program that does what you want.
A question: Is this BRUCE's official stance on this issue?
Ki An, this is my personal stance. I am in no leadership position at BRUCE and I don't speak for anyone but myself.
I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
Why should this be used? Why should you be warned if you aren't aware.
This is yet another nail in the coffin for suprise deconstruction (Sound nicer than piracy). This is another nail in the coffin for non-mutual pvp.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:38:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Ki An, this is my personal stance. I am in no leadership position at BRUCE and I don't speak for anyone but myself.
I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
Well, you represent you alliance on the forums, and you are obviously a carebear of the worst sort. If I was Bruce leadership i'd kick you out post haste.
Also, you have been told several times that you are full of **** when you claim CCP has approved this. They specifically mentioned that we SHOULD NOT TAKE THEIR RESPONSE AS A CCP APPROVAL. I mean, do you need me to draw you a diagram?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:38:00 -
[565]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
They could start by banning all it's vocal supporters.
And why is that? CCP has approved that tool and that is good enough. Again,if you don't like it,don't use it.But you or anyone else, have no business telling anyone how to play or what tools to use from the moment the method of playing and the tools don't break the EULA or ToS EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:39:00 -
[566]
Edited by: Euriti on 22/04/2008 15:39:41
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 22/04/2008 15:37:48
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
Great point... I do remember a game once cant remember what its called. Anyway when you started the EXE it scanned your computers active processes. If it found a process named the same as a hack program it instantly banned you. I think it was a CS 1.6 server mod, not sure though. So when you joined the server and auto downloaded the mod or something.
Could CCP legally employ that? An active scan of your computers active processes paired up to a list of known hack/cheat programs for insta banning?
*you start eve and BOOM "we have dectected eve altering content on your computer and we exorcise our right to ban you forever."*
WoW has "Warden" which scans for illegal processes and then notifies a GM.
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Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:40:00 -
[567]
Originally by: Euriti
WoW has "Warden" which scans for illegal processes and then notifies a GM.
I've never played wow but from what i hear its not working =)
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:40:00 -
[568]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
You are not being truthful when you imply that CCP have given full and final approval to BACON.
Please refer to my earlier response.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:42:00 -
[569]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
You are not being truthful when you imply that CCP have given full and final approval to BACON.
Please refer to my earlier response.
While GMs are not atop the ladder at CCP they are still qualified agents of CCP and therefor until otherwise stated their word is the word of CCP
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:42:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
Great point... I do remember a game once cant remember what its called. Anyway when you started the EXE it scanned your computers active processes. If it found a process named the same as a hack program it instantly banned you. I think it was a CS 1.6 server mod, not sure though. So when you joined the server and auto downloaded the mod or something.
Could CCP legally employ that? An active scan of your computers active processes paired up to a list of known hack/cheat programs for insta banning?
*you start eve and BOOM "we have dectected eve altering content on your computer and we exorcise our right to ban you forever."*
You mean VAC (Valve Anti-Cheat)?
Trust me, given CCP's huge amount of fail when it comes to programming, the last thing I want them doing is scanning any processes on my system. Who knows how many more boot.ini snafus will pop up. NO THANK YOU.
I'll simply opt not to use BACON tyvm. Local is good enough for me.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:42:00 -
[571]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 22/04/2008 15:37:48
Originally by: eeevans even if ccp outlawed it, i'd love to see anybody be able to prove someone was using bacon - or more importantly, a derivative thereof... ho ho...
Great point... I do remember a game once cant remember what its called. Anyway when you started the EXE it scanned your computers active processes. If it found a process named the same as a hack program it instantly banned you. I think it was a CS 1.6 server mod, not sure though. So when you joined the server and auto downloaded the mod or something.
Could CCP legally employ that? An active scan of your computers active processes paired up to a list of known hack/cheat programs for insta banning?
*you start eve and BOOM "we have dectected eve altering content on your computer and we exorcise our right to ban you forever."*
The one game I know that uses that is Americas Army.Having been a high ranking member of two anti-cheat communities in Americas Army,I can say that the method you are referring to is quite effective. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Commander Solo
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:42:00 -
[572]
Great job CCP.
You are slowing killing this game one piece at a time. If this isnt in violation of the EULA and TOS you need to change them so it is.
Idiots
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:43:00 -
[573]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
While GMs are not atop the ladder at CCP they are still qualified agents of CCP and therefor until otherwise stated their word is the word of CCP
Well, a dev also posted in that thread, and he said that we should not take his response as CCP approval. That means they are still evaluating this, which means it's not allowed, and it's not disallowed.
To say it's either is lying.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Segge Bolled
Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:44:00 -
[574]
Originally by: Haleuth What about an audible warning when each kernite rock pops, so i can afk mine better.
Ummm, I'm pretty sure there already is, actually. Aura (the ship computer, you know?) says "ASTEROID DEPLETED" or some-such, every time. If you have EVE sound on and you mine, you'd know this.
The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign |
Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:44:00 -
[575]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix STUFF
The one game I know that uses that is Americas Army.Having been a high ranking member of two anti-cheat communities in Americas Army,I can say that the method you are referring to is quite effective.
I know it rocks because the owning programmer in this case CCP always has access to the same places to public does to get these cheats and can keep their changes in process names up to date. I think it would really work wonders on the MACRO and other cheating issues in this game but hell what do I know
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:45:00 -
[576]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix I have said it before,it is my personal opinion that no one has a reason to complain because CCP approved that tool Also,I have said that each and every pilot has the right to choose how to play a game from the moment,that said pilot doesn't break any EULA or ToS.And CCP has said that BACON doesn't break the EULA or the ToS
You are not being truthful when you imply that CCP have given full and final approval to BACON.
Please refer to my earlier response.
here is again the quote from the other thread :
"There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master"
The above is good enough, me says. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:45:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth While GMs are not atop the ladder at CCP they are still qualified agents of CCP and therefor until otherwise stated their word is the word of CCP
Please read in full instead of forcing people to repeat themselves because of stubborn ignorance.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:47:00 -
[578]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
here is again the quote from the other thread :
"There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master"
The above is good enough, me says.
And here is a quote from an actual Dev, a quote you ignore because it shoots your idea out of the water:
Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Now kindly stfu.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:49:00 -
[579]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/04/2008 15:50:05
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master"
The above is good enough, me says.
Is it so unclear to you that Grimmi has been careful to indicate that this tentative approval is subject to review? Moreover that the review of BACON is ongoing while the full implications of the software are investigated and realised?
Yes, it is fine to use at the moment, but if you think that means the application's future in Eve is certain, you should reconsider.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:49:00 -
[580]
Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 22/04/2008 15:50:31
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth While GMs are not atop the ladder at CCP they are still qualified agents of CCP and therefor until otherwise stated their word is the word of CCP
Please read in full instead of forcing people to repeat themselves because of stubborn ignorance.
Right stubborn ignorance... A lead "GAME MASTER"says and I quote "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate."
that is the word of CCP until "WE" = They = CCP as a company? Decide otherwise... whos being stubborn?
This post was after the I will go ask higher statement so it is the latest and outweighs the first.
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eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:50:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth I know it rocks because the owning programmer in this case CCP always has access to the same places to public does to get these cheats and can keep their changes in process names up to date. I think it would really work wonders on the MACRO and other cheating issues in this game but hell what do I know
yer - but bacon is open source so there'll be a different variant every other day, say hello to BLT, StreakyBacon et al... they could never keep up...
they can't check for integrity of their own client code because it's not being altered...
there's very little they could do to effectively police it other than change the way the logserver works or is interacted with...
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:51:00 -
[582]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth While GMs are not atop the ladder at CCP they are still qualified agents of CCP and therefor until otherwise stated their word is the word of CCP
Please read in full instead of forcing people to repeat themselves because of stubborn ignorance.
Right stubborn ignorance... A lead "GAME MASTER"says and I quote "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate."
that is the word of CCP until "WE" = They = CCP as a company? Decide otherwise... whos being stubborn?
Ahhh ffs!!!
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:51:00 -
[583]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth While GMs are not atop the ladder at CCP they are still qualified agents of CCP and therefor until otherwise stated their word is the word of CCP
Please read in full instead of forcing people to repeat themselves because of stubborn ignorance.
Right stubborn ignorance... A lead "GAME MASTER"says and I quote "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate."
that is the word of CCP until "WE" = They = CCP as a company? Decide otherwise... whos being stubborn?
Please refer to my post above yours.
"BACON: Never be surprised again"
Vigilance is the player's responsibility!
Passing this responsibility to a third-party application is a clear violation of the EULA - Wake up CCP! |
Segge Bolled
Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:51:00 -
[584]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix The one game I know that uses that is Americas Army.Having been a high ranking member of two anti-cheat communities in Americas Army,I can say that the method you are referring to is quite effective.
Really? When I played AA (and not all that long ago) it had a pretty noticeable "false positive" ratio to me. For that reason alone I'd dislike that approach here. One does not want to be entering an epic fleet battle where lag is as deadly as massed Tachyon II's, only to be false-positived of the game by snoop-ware.
"Oh no, my frag count!" rates somewhat lower to me in importance than "Oh no, my multi-hundred million ISK fit internet spaceship!".
The following statements probably represent the opinions of an individual and not necessarily those of their corporation or alliance - just in case you've forgotten to copy & paste the sign |
Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:53:00 -
[585]
I agree with you tommy!
Fine for now until otherwise stated-- With this kind of outrage i dont suspect it will last
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:53:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/04/2008 15:50:05
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix "There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master"
The above is good enough, me says.
Is it so unclear to you that Grimmi has been careful to indicate that this tentative approval is subject to review? Moreover that the review of BACON is ongoing while the full implications of the software are investigated and realised?
Yes, it is fine to use at the moment, but if you think that means the application's future in Eve is certain, you should reconsider.
I have never said that. What I am saying is that as long as CCP approves, no one should be any complaining.And I have said this before: If CCP changes their minds and decide to ban that tool,they will notify the creators of BACON and they will notify the community.And then,and only then,would such a tool be against the EULA,ToS or whatever else.
EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:54:00 -
[587]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth I know it rocks because the owning programmer in this case CCP always has access to the same places to public does to get these cheats and can keep their changes in process names up to date. I think it would really work wonders on the MACRO and other cheating issues in this game but hell what do I know
Because its impossible to randomize the process name... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:58:00 -
[588]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
I have never said that. What I am saying is that as long as CCP approves, no one should be any complaining.And I have said this before: If CCP changes their minds and decide to ban that tool,they will notify the creators of BACON and they will notify the community.And then,and only then,would such a tool be against the EULA,ToS or whatever else.
Why do you persist with the stupid notion that CCP approves of this? In neither of the quoted posts do CCP specifically say "We approve and condone this software". In fact, in one of the posts a dev says "Please don't take this as CCP approval", meaning CCP approval is still pending. All this means that the program IS NOT APPROVED BY CCP at this time.
It's not disapproved either, but stop ******* saying it's approved when it's not.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:58:00 -
[589]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 22/04/2008 16:04:02
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix What I am saying is that as long as CCP approves, no one should be any complaining.And I have said this before:
Nonsense! We have every right to complain about the use of a tool that is as destructive as BACON.
We do not decide policy, but we can and will complain about the use of tools that violate the EULA and are still under scrutiny.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix If CCP changes their minds and decide to ban that tool,they will notify the creators of BACON and they will notify the community.And then,and only then,would such a tool be against the EULA,ToS or whatever else.
In the meantime, a large proportion of the community will continue to signpost why we feel CCP should take action to remove BACON and any similar tool from play.
Would you care to actually discuss the application now, or continue to hide behind CCP's tentative approval as complete validation of it?
Edit: highlighted changed text - I didn't intend to speak for the whole community.. |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 15:59:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Kaimon ValDreth I agree with you tommy!
Fine for now until otherwise stated-- With this kind of outrage i dont suspect it will last
Yea,agree with you.And this raises another issue:players(not just in Eve,but in other games)not willing to accept new tools,new softwares that improve or provide small advantages to everyone and which are legal.
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:00:00 -
[591]
This thread is now about bickering and attention whorage.
/discuss. |
Dal Thrax
Multiverse Corporation Cosmic Anomalies
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:00:00 -
[592]
Hum two things spring to mind:
You could aggregate all this information with a central server so that somebody could build a map of real time local in every place that a user is. You could then run this against various KB sites to have a good idea what those pilots are flying...
Couldn't this same technique be used to shout "doomsday" when a titan load grid and starts to fart?
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Kaimon ValDreth
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:02:00 -
[593]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix What I am saying is that as long as CCP approves, no one should be any complaining.And I have said this before:
Nonsense! We have every right to complain about the use of a tool that is as destructive as BACON.
We do not decide policy, but we can and will complain about the use of tools that violate the EULA and are still under scrutiny.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix If CCP changes their minds and decide to ban that tool,they will notify the creators of BACON and they will notify the community.And then,and only then,would such a tool be against the EULA,ToS or whatever else.
In the meantime, we the community will continue to signpost why we feel CCP should take action to remove BACON and any similar tool from play.
Would you care to actually discuss the application now, or continue to hide behind CCP's tentative approval as complete validation of it?
They don't approve it they have just said its not in violation as of now. Unfortunately damage is already done those that have it will have it forever. CCP would have to rewrite the log server to invalidate it. Even then if there remains a logserver this program or ones like it will still remain. |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:02:00 -
[594]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Yea,agree with you.And this raises another issue:players(not just in Eve,but in other games)not willing to accept new tools,new softwares that improve or provide small advantages to everyone and which are legal.
I can't respond to you without attacking you personally. I am aware of this, but the reason for it is that every post you make is so insanely stupid, that it's impossible not to mock you sensless.
I don't think any of us nay-sayers have trouble accepting new software that gets approved by CCP. We have trouble accepting software that we can easily see is detrimental to the game. BACON is bad for Eve. Software like it is bad for Eve. Macros are bad for Eve. We speak out because we actually care about the game, while you just care about the safety of your pixel ship and the size of your virtual wallet.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:04:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix What I am saying is that as long as CCP approves, no one should be any complaining.And I have said this before:
Nonsense! We have every right to complain about the use of a tool that is as destructive as BACON.
We do not decide policy, but we can and will complain about the use of tools that violate the EULA and are still under scrutiny.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix If CCP changes their minds and decide to ban that tool,they will notify the creators of BACON and they will notify the community.And then,and only then,would such a tool be against the EULA,ToS or whatever else.
In the meantime, we the community will continue to signpost why we feel CCP should take action to remove BACON and any similar tool from play.
Would you care to actually discuss the application now, or continue to hide behind CCP's tentative approval as complete validation of it?
Discuss the application?More than willing.I am testing it as we speak and having a few issues uploading a standing list due to my poor coding ability LOL However,my thinking about the application is very simple( and I have already said that too).For me the application is the equivalent to a military radar and i think that such a tool will open new tactical possibilities.I am not able to describe more because I am working on testing the tool |
Skyr
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:09:00 -
[596]
If anything, release of this software will play havoc with eve game play until such time when local is indeed removed.
The removal of local is not guarantee either since one will still be able to monitor choke systems if appropriate events get captured when player appears on the grid. Think a covert parked on choke gate etc. This will work even without local.
There are, however, other less obvious applications of this, and its derivatives, program. One can fairly easily modify it to capture market order dumps and user order dumps and indicate without any manual work (except perhaps to click an item on market shortcut) if the order is still on top.
As far as I know from person experience, others are using this technique for quite some time now.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:09:00 -
[597]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Yea,agree with you.And this raises another issue:players(not just in Eve,but in other games)not willing to accept new tools,new softwares that improve or provide small advantages to everyone and which are legal.
I can't respond to you without attacking you personally. I am aware of this, but the reason for it is that every post you make is so insanely stupid, that it's impossible not to mock you sensless.
I don't think any of us nay-sayers have trouble accepting new software that gets approved by CCP. We have trouble accepting software that we can easily see is detrimental to the game. BACON is bad for Eve. Software like it is bad for Eve. Macros are bad for Eve. We speak out because we actually care about the game, while you just care about the safety of your pixel ship and the size of your virtual wallet.
No worries,I don't get offended easily :) I have been in the gaming business for a few years to not take anything personal.
If softwares such as BACON are detrimental to the game,CCP will say so and ban it and other similar tools.
EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
White Ronin
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:17:00 -
[598]
Edited by: White Ronin on 22/04/2008 16:18:50 The sound effects are cool actually. YOu can make your own sound files to play when the right people enter the system. Also, the voice is a great touch.
And to those that say this is a violation of the "spirit" of the game, so is running alts as scouts.
Get over it.
Edit - Or two boxing for that matter. Again, get over it. The "spirit" of eve is win at all costs and screw everyone else if you havent noticed. Maybe you are angry cause Bacon does less screwing and actually helps those being screwed. As a solo player, this is pure gold. Thanks guys. |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:19:00 -
[599]
Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 16:19:49 By the way,if you don't like the BACON,what do you think of the Beetracker read here |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.04.22 16:28:00 -
[600]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 16:19:49 By the way,if you don't like the BACON,what do you think of the Beetracker read here
I'm against this in all its varieties. CCP should close the loophole making this possible (from a programming point of view) |
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 16:31:00 -
[601]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 16:19:49 By the way,if you don't like the BACON,what do you think of the Beetracker read here
I'm against this in all its varieties. CCP should close the loophole making this possible (from a programming point of view)
Good,then why not create a thread to demand that against the Goons tool?which by the way is private to the goons. Why have multiple threads against a publicly released tool that as of now is allowed by CCP,when tools such as the Goons one exists?To me that sounds like double standard.
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Buxaroo
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.22 16:34:00 -
[602]
Wow. Look at all the isk farming carebears in this thread.
I thought EVE was about Darwinism in the making...guess not. You people do know this is a PVP game right? |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:37:00 -
[603]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 16:19:49 By the way,if you don't like the BACON,what do you think of the Beetracker read here
I'm against this in all its varieties. CCP should close the loophole making this possible (from a programming point of view)
Good,then why not create a thread to demand that against the Goons tool?which by the way is private to the goons. Why have multiple threads against a publicly released tool that as of now is allowed by CCP,when tools such as the Goons one exists?To me that sounds like double standard.
A former goon told me he was amazed people still believed beetracker was real and also look around the text, looks like it's done in paint.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9655/beetrackerth9.jpg
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:39:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 16:19:49 By the way,if you don't like the BACON,what do you think of the Beetracker read here
I'm against this in all its varieties. CCP should close the loophole making this possible (from a programming point of view)
Good,then why not create a thread to demand that against the Goons tool?which by the way is private to the goons. Why have multiple threads against a publicly released tool that as of now is allowed by CCP,when tools such as the Goons one exists?To me that sounds like double standard.
A former goon told me he was amazed people still believed beetracker was real and also look around the text, looks like it's done in paint.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9655/beetrackerth9.jpg
That,I have no ways of knowing.I am just getting info posted on forums EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Ralara
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:40:00 -
[605]
Originally by: Euriti
A former goon told me he was amazed people still believed beetracker was real and also look around the text, looks like it's done in paint.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9655/beetrackerth9.jpg
It's called "lossy compression". -- Ralara / Ralarina
I did a big poo once that wouldn't flush, so I put a carrier bag around my hand and picked it out, and put it in the green bin.
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Vincent S
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.22 16:41:00 -
[606]
The beetracker isn't real you ******s, it's a huge troll
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Enkilil
Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.22 16:41:00 -
[607]
Edited by: Enkilil on 22/04/2008 16:43:13
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
That,I have no ways of knowing.I am just getting info posted on forums
Then why are you still even talking?
You are aware the person with the most posts / responses doesn't 'win', right?
Honestly 21 pages and about 3 1/2 pages of actual content over this crap. Don't you have anything better to do with your life than this? ffs that's pathetic dude.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 16:47:00 -
[608]
Originally by: Enkilil Edited by: Enkilil on 22/04/2008 16:43:13
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
That,I have no ways of knowing.I am just getting info posted on forums
Then why are you still even talking?
You are aware the person with the most posts / responses doesn't 'win', right?
Honestly 21 pages and about 3 1/2 pages of actual content over this crap. Don't you have anything better to do with your life than this? ffs that's pathetic dude.
Trust me,got plenty of things to be doing. However I also believe in freedom of speech and in the freedom to use any tools and play in anyway allowed by the EULA.And I belive that no one has any business telling a pilot how to play or what tools to use.That is CCP's job and only if the EULA and ToS is broken. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:05:00 -
[609]
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Please do not take this as CCP approval
I'll just keep posting this until you people realize CCP has not approved this tool yet. Maybe if I do it enough you'll get it into your heads that CCP has not approved it yet and you'll stop saying CCP has approved it.
Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
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GM Grimmi
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Posted - 2008.04.22 17:17:00 -
[610]
Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master |
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Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:21:00 -
[611]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
\o/ |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:23:00 -
[612]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Glad to finally have some more CCP input on the situation!
A quick question - if CCP has known about "the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players", why has it taken the release of a tool to "level the playing field" as it were, for you to address the problem?
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.04.22 17:24:00 -
[613]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Why.
Apparently a number of big alliances have been using similar tools for quite a while and CCP did nothing. It's only now that it's become known to the general public that you feel the need to address this?
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Lord Lycos
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:24:00 -
[614]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
<3 |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:30:00 -
[615]
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 22/04/2008 17:32:22 Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 22/04/2008 17:32:03
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Grimmi,
Will this change also stop the many tools which look directly into the MachoNet cache folder? As the LogServer and the cache folder store the data in an almost identical format, preventing access to LogServer will just move people to look at the cache instead.
See this thread for exactly what I am talking about.
Edit: if you frown upon it's use, and intend to prevent access in the future; why not make it a breach of the EULA/TOS to use tools like this? It'd be far quicker.
Thanks, FireFoxx80
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:33:00 -
[616]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Then please oh please OUTLAW it!
Honestly, this is as close you can get a macro program! It directly interfers with game play! Its a automated program that is able to warn players based on the log servers rather then player input! It is so wrong in so many ways!
It simply breaches everything the game is all about!
Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:35:00 -
[617]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Thank you for your reply. Hopefully this cannot be misconstrued as CCP approval of BACON.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
|
Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:37:00 -
[618]
Nah Ki An, they'll just ignore that GM post and keep saying its CCP approved because the OP said CCP said it was approved. |
Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:38:00 -
[619]
Originally by: GM Grimmi The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Joy! |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:39:00 -
[620]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 Edit: if you frown upon it's use, and intend to prevent access in the future; why not make it a breach of the EULA/TOS to use tools like this? It'd be far quicker.
There's no easy way for CCP to enforce such a rule, as BACON does not directly interact with the client or the server. It's not a good route to go down. |
|
Dexion Slayer
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:41:00 -
[621]
<3 hydra for putting this into the publics eye, thus it being stopped now by CCP. |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:42:00 -
[622]
Originally by: Orion Eridanus Nah Ki An, they'll just ignore that GM post and keep saying its CCP approved because the OP said CCP said it was approved.
The GM post specifically said it did not presently violate the EULA. Although, unfortunately, the post also said that CCP is going to break this method, it made it quite clear that for the time being BACON is (although frowned upon) allowed. |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:43:00 -
[623]
Originally by: Cori4n The GM post specifically said it did not presently violate the EULA. Although, unfortunately, the post also said that CCP is going to break this method, it made it quite clear that for the time being BACON is (although frowned upon) allowed.
Cheaters will cling to any defense c/d?
|
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:46:00 -
[624]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Cori4n The GM post specifically said it did not presently violate the EULA. Although, unfortunately, the post also said that CCP is going to break this method, it made it quite clear that for the time being BACON is (although frowned upon) allowed.
Cheaters will cling to any defense c/d?
I haven't even used the thing |
Dexion Slayer
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:47:00 -
[625]
C |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:47:00 -
[626]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Thank you. You have taken the most appropriate and sensible approach to managing this issue, IMO. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:50:00 -
[627]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
..STUFF..
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later. |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:52:00 -
[628]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Made my day.
THANK YOU! |
Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:54:00 -
[629]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Cori4n The GM post specifically said it did not presently violate the EULA. Although, unfortunately, the post also said that CCP is going to break this method, it made it quite clear that for the time being BACON is (although frowned upon) allowed.
Cheaters will cling to any defense c/d?
Uh, the GM said it was allowed, in that it violates no rules. They will change things such that it won't work in the future, but that doesn't change the entire not violating the EULA thing. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:55:00 -
[630]
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Other than that, Any chance of getting my question answered CCP? I'm not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to argue for BACON. Our corp is hardly a one-trick pony, and we've got quite a few other projects we're working on. We knew this was a likely outcome of releasing BACON. :)
But, I really must know... If CCP has known that large groups are using tools like this for quite some time, why has it taken the release of an open tool to force them into action?
|
|
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:58:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Uh, the GM said it was allowed, in that it violates no rules. They will change things such that it won't work in the future, but that doesn't change the entire not violating the EULA thing.
The GM said it doesn't technically violate the TOS or the EULA, but that it's use is frowned upon. To people who aren't ******** or cheaters, this means that since CCP has no way of enforcing a ban, they can just say that they frown upon it's use until they have changed the game so that it can't be used.
In this respect, saying that something is "frowned upon" is the strongest reaction CCP can give. Saying that it is allowed is therefore bending the truth quite a bit.
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:59:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Uh, the GM said it was allowed, in that it violates no rules. They will change things such that it won't work in the future, but that doesn't change the entire not violating the EULA thing.
Just because it isn't explicitly covered in the EULA as it stands does not mean it is okay, just that it isn't currently a technical infringement .. yet.
IF CCP considered it legitimate gameplay they wouldn't be changing things to prevent it, would they?
The fact that it isn't yet covered in the EULA is *not* an endorsement. |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 17:59:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Jessica Lorelei Edited by: Jessica Lorelei on 21/04/2008 10:38:49 if the ships computer sees fit to play a hideous warp noise despite space being SILENT, why the hell cant it play a noise when someone enters local?
what kind of backwards ship designer forgot to add that feature?
ccp add audio alerts and be done with it.
Yes, and if the ship didn't have an infinite range, instant updating early warning scanner (local as it stands), I'd agree with this (as mentioned earlier in the thread) as it would add a lot to the immersion if you had alarms go off when something got with in X million km / Y AU of your ship... |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:01:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Excuse me?
I have never cheated in Eve, and nor have I ever used an application like Bacon.
If you want to make an accusation against me, petition.
I find your post insulting tbh. |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:06:00 -
[635]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Thank you.
|
zacuis
Great Big Research
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:10:00 -
[636]
i fully expect ccp to add this program as a feature of the game. anyone remember when u didnt used to get a standings icon on local but there were so many programs going about that did it for u and were undecectable that ccp said dam it let every one have the ability. i see this happening here too
that said im not against such a change. i honestly dont think it will make a big difference to the game.
actually it might mean that i start playing with the sound on again lol as im sure 95% of players dont have sound enabled |
ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:11:00 -
[637]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
<3
|
Blood Daemon
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:13:00 -
[638]
Originally by: zacuis
actually it might mean that i start playing with the sound on again lol as im sure 95% of players dont have sound enabled ***in-game***
Fixed... Don't they just disable sound in-game??.. And I would suspect that bacon would create a sound out of EVE, so generally speaking even people without sound can still benefiet from this?.. |
Commoner
Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:17:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Other than that, Any chance of getting my question answered CCP? I'm not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to argue for BACON. Our corp is hardly a one-trick pony, and we've got quite a few other projects we're working on. We knew this was a likely outcome of releasing BACON. :)
But, I really must know... If CCP has known that large groups are using tools like this for quite some time, why has it taken the release of an open tool to force them into action?
Aside from the fact that only a select few in BoB knew anything about the BPO scandal and that Avon probably knew nothing.......
...I agree with you, if large alliances had been using this app covertly, then nothing would have been done, which is far worse than you opening the public eyes to what is possible with the logserver.
Actually it weeds out in cheaters. |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:20:00 -
[640]
AFAIK, Avon joined BoB long after the T20 scandal; and to be fair, there are other corps/alliances which have used similar tools.
I am not jumping to BoB's defence ehre, but Avon's. He does know what he's talking about. |
|
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:21:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Glad to finally have some more CCP input on the situation!
A quick question - if CCP has known about "the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players", why has it taken the release of a tool to "level the playing field" as it were, for you to address the problem?
This is a fair point, and deserves an explanation IMO. But in the meantime...
Thank you Hydra and the developers of BACON for bringing this longstanding inequality and unintended use of the logserver to CCP's attention. |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:25:00 -
[642]
In the meantime...
I can't actually get BACON to work on this computer () but...
Anyone who can, try pasting this into some chat channel you're in ScatterEvent( OnLSC ,*args= ((('solarsystemid2', 0),), 0, 'JoinChannel', (0, 0, [0, u'x', 0], 0, 0), ()) ,**kw= {} )
If I'm right (just from looking at the source), BACON will match this and incorrectly report a neutral entering...
I could be wrong though, seeing as BACON won't work at all for me |
Torik Tavitas
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:26:00 -
[643]
Originally by: Ki An The GM said it doesn't technically violate the TOS or the EULA, but that it's use is frowned upon. To people who aren't ******** or cheaters, this means that since CCP has no way of enforcing a ban, they can just say that they frown upon it's use until they have changed the game so that it can't be used.
In this respect, saying that something is "frowned upon" is the strongest reaction CCP can give. Saying that it is allowed is therefore bending the truth quite a bit.
No. The strongest reaction they can give is to forbid its use. 'Frowning' upon it is meaningless.
Calling people cheaters for doing something that CCP stated is not in violation of the EULA is bending the truth.
|
Mars Magnus
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:28:00 -
[644]
Edited by: Mars Magnus on 22/04/2008 18:32:11
Originally by: GM Grimmi ... the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players ...
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
The common Eve player does not have access to such tools unless they are "in the know". Does this make any of you who DON'T have access to tools like these mad at the fact only certain privileged people used them (probably against you)?. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:28:00 -
[645]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 AFAIK, Avon joined BoB long after the T20 scandal; and to be fair, there are other corps/alliances which have used similar tools.
I am not jumping to BoB's defence ehre, but Avon's. He does know what he's talking about.
(Sorry at this point I brought BoB into this.)
CCP admits that large groups of people have been using these tools, presumably for a long time. I'd just like to understand a bit more why the decision is being made now, rather than in the past. I don't see how covert use of the tools is better than an open, fair, playing field.
Either way, CCP has our IRC channel info, and if they would prefer that venue or PM to answer my questions, I certainly understand that. Again, I am not trying to cause trouble, just to understand the thinking. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:31:00 -
[646]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Avon
Faith restored. Let's hope CCP can get some effective changes in place sooner rather than later.
Irony, thy name is BoB.
Other than that, Any chance of getting my question answered CCP? I'm not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to argue for BACON. Our corp is hardly a one-trick pony, and we've got quite a few other projects we're working on. We knew this was a likely outcome of releasing BACON. :)
But, I really must know... If CCP has known that large groups are using tools like this for quite some time, why has it taken the release of an open tool to force them into action?
I don't see what Avon being in BoB has to do with it. God knows I am not a BoB fanboy , but this discussion is in no way related to what BoB did or did not do. If a development is detrimental to the game (which I think this is), then CCP needs to address it.
And I would not go on pure hearsay that 'big alliances' use this already. If that had been the case, it would have been known by now. Aside from alliances being too big to cover that kind of stuff up, each and every one of them is so riddled with spies that a tool like this, if used by many people would be discovered soon enough.
I do recall ASCN developing something that was a bit similar to this, but based on an ingame website and member input to report systems as clear or not clear. It was never really used much though technically it worked (I think), but perhaps that is where such rumors originated from. |
Karentaki
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:33:00 -
[647]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
I ♥ GM Grimmi
Thank you for returning my faith in CCP |
RebelWithACause
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:36:00 -
[648]
Originally by: Mars Magnus
Originally by: GM Grimmi ... the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players ...
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
The common Eve player does not have access to such tools unless they are "in the know". Does this make any of you who DON'T have access to tools like these mad at the fact that CCP has known all along that only certain privileged people used them (probably against you)?.
Whether you like BACON or not, how can this not bug EVERYONE on this thread? CCP has openly admitted that they KNEW others were ALREADY using similar tools... We just had the guts to bring it to light, for better or worse.
I use BACON, I like BACON, but I see a frightening impact of encrypting the logserver info vs removing local (both valid responses):
What would stop CCP from handing out the decrypt key to 'key alliances' of their choosing? (you can't tell me that others aren't as paranoid as I am). |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:36:00 -
[649]
Originally by: Cori4n Edited by: Cori4n on 22/04/2008 18:31:27 In the meantime...
I can't actually get BACON to work on this computer () but...
Anyone who can, try pasting this into some chat channel you're in ScatterEvent( OnLSC ,*args= ((('solarsystemid2', 0),), 0, 'JoinChannel', (0, 0, [0, u'x', 0], 0, 0), ()) ,**kw= {} )
If I'm right (just from looking at the source), BACON will match this and incorrectly report a neutral entering... if you pasted into local, everyone in the system who had BACON would get that...
I could be wrong though, seeing as BACON won't work at all for me
I wish I could help you.But I am having my own problems with BACON,meaning that I am unable to get a standing list to work |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:39:00 -
[650]
Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 18:41:39 Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 22/04/2008 18:39:34
Originally by: RebelWithACause
Originally by: Mars Magnus
Originally by: GM Grimmi ... the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players ...
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
The common Eve player does not have access to such tools unless they are "in the know". Does this make any of you who DON'T have access to tools like these mad at the fact that CCP has known all along that only certain privileged people used them (probably against you)?.
Whether you like BACON or not, how can this not bug EVERYONE on this thread? CCP has openly admitted that they KNEW others were ALREADY using similar tools... We just had the guts to bring it to light, for better or worse.
I use BACON, I like BACON, but I see a frightening impact of encrypting the logserver info vs removing local (both valid responses):
What would stop CCP from handing out the decrypt key to 'key alliances' of their choosing? (you can't tell me that others aren't as paranoid as I am).
Very good point. CCP has more or less recognized that alliances/corps have been using such tools and they didn't do anything. However when a public tool which does what those private tools were already doing is released for all to use, people ask for it to be banned and CCP plans to take action. Personally I see this as a double standard which doesn't promise much for fairness And now that CCP has recognized being aware of alliances/corps using such tools, the bottom line for me is as follow:
-either CCP bans all such tools and provides proof that no privileged corps/alliances are able to circumvent the system -either CCP authorizes such tools for all to use |
|
Orchid Ix
Behind The Stars
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:46:00 -
[651]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
I don't see what Avon being in BoB has to do with it. God knows I am not a BoB fanboy , but this discussion is in no way related to what BoB did or did not do.
BoB is the Eve Online whipping boy now where have you been?
As such I never saw this type of tool used while I was flying around under the BoB flag...
|
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:50:00 -
[652]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: FireFoxx80 AFAIK, Avon joined BoB long after the T20 scandal; and to be fair, there are other corps/alliances which have used similar tools.
I am not jumping to BoB's defence ehre, but Avon's. He does know what he's talking about.
(Sorry at this point I brought BoB into this.)
CCP admits that large groups of people have been using these tools, presumably for a long time. I'd just like to understand a bit more why the decision is being made now, rather than in the past. I don't see how covert use of the tools is better than an open, fair, playing field.
Either way, CCP has our IRC channel info, and if they would prefer that venue or PM to answer my questions, I certainly understand that. Again, I am not trying to cause trouble, just to understand the thinking.
You're being targeted because you've gone public. Plenty of people use this sort of thing, either privately within a corp/alliance, or personally without telling a soul.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:54:00 -
[653]
It's okay, I can still use Beetracker.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
|
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 18:54:00 -
[654]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Can we get this into something definitive as a final policy.
This is no more a condemnation of BACON than the earlier statements were an approval.
Can you please estabilsh a definitive policy on this matter?
Until you make whatever changes you will be making, are tools that read realtime data from the LogServer allowed or disallowed?
I don't care one way or the other what you decide, but please set the record strait once and for all. Ultimately this needs to have a yes or no answer: is it tolerated?
|
Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:06:00 -
[655]
Joy and an expected reaction from CCP.
Though Reuser have a point.
This incident is not the first of its kind in EVE and it will not be the last as long as some people thinks that "hardcore gaming" means taking any advantage possible, metagame and borderline cheat as much as possible to get the edge (cheating is also fine as long as you do not get caught).
Are cyno-nets still around? |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:06:00 -
[656]
Originally by: Ki Anna Until you make whatever changes you will be making, are tools that read realtime data from the LogServer allowed or disallowed?
Quote: While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS
|
F90OEX
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:08:00 -
[657]
Looks like BACON got sizzled good |
Fifth Horseman
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:10:00 -
[658]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
[MichaelIronside] 'bout god dam time [/MichaelIronside] |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:12:00 -
[659]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
<3 |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:15:00 -
[660]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Joy and an expected reaction from CCP.
Though Reuser have a point.
This incident is not the first of its kind in EVE and it will not be the last as long as some people thinks that "hardcore gaming" means taking any advantage possible, metagame and borderline cheat as much as possible to get the edge (cheating is also fine as long as you do not get caught).
Are cyno-nets still around?
I wouldn't call using such tools cheating.For me cheating is using a tool or a method which violates the EULA and the ToS. After the latest CCP statement, my problem is that people have been using this type of tool in secret and CCP and the community did nothing.However as soon as BACON was released and began providing players with similar features as the tools privately used, a part of the community wakes up and starts harassing BACON and its users and CCP begins to do something. Sorry,but to me, it is a double standard and it is not fair to either party.Either people complain from the very beginning(whether the tools are private or public) and CCP reacts from the very beginning or there is no complaining at all People can't have it both ways |
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Wei Tago
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:20:00 -
[661]
Edited by: Wei Tago on 22/04/2008 19:21:00
Originally by: Ki Anna
Can you please estabilsh a definitive policy on this matter?
If they can't detect it, they can't punish it.
Definitive enough for you?
You know, there actually is one MMO game out there with technology advanced enough to seek out and report third-party apps like this that operate outside the game proper.
So, if that's a requirement to make your gaming experience tolerable, then, by all means, go play WoW. |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:26:00 -
[662]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Halle-*******-llujah
|
Torik Tavitas
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:29:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Wei Tago Edited by: Wei Tago on 22/04/2008 19:21:00
Originally by: Ki Anna
Can you please estabilsh a definitive policy on this matter?
If they can't detect it, they can't punish it.
Definitive enough for you?
You know, there actually is one MMO game out there with technology advanced enough to seek out and report third-party apps like this that operate outside the game proper.
So, if that's a requirement to make your gaming experience tolerable, then, by all means, go play WoW.
Just because they can't punish does not mean that they can't disallow. If CPP thinks BACON is against the 'spirit of the game' then they should disallow it 'in the spirit of the game'. Then people using it would be cheaters for real rather then just falsely accused by ignorant people.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:29:00 -
[664]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Excellent, full marks to CCP for addressing this situation.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:30:00 -
[665]
Originally by: Cori4n
Quote: While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS
amidoinitrite? -- My Sig got pwnt by Cortes :( |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:32:00 -
[666]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 22/04/2008 19:33:53
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Joy and an expected reaction from CCP.
Though Reuser have a point.
This incident is not the first of its kind in EVE and it will not be the last as long as some people thinks that "hardcore gaming" means taking any advantage possible, metagame and borderline cheat as much as possible to get the edge (cheating is also fine as long as you do not get caught).
Are cyno-nets still around?
I wouldn't call using such tools cheating.For me cheating is using a tool or a method which violates the EULA and the ToS. After the latest CCP statement, my problem is that people have been using this type of tool in secret and CCP and the community did nothing.However as soon as BACON was released and began providing players with similar features as the tools privately used, a part of the community wakes up and starts harassing BACON and its users and CCP begins to do something. Sorry,but to me, it is a double standard and it is not fair to either party.Either people complain from the very beginning(whether the tools are private or public) and CCP reacts from the very beginning or there is no complaining at all People can't have it both ways
I don't know why you act surprised. This is how a lot of things in life work, from politics, to activism, to the 6:00 news, and game forums are an extreme example of it.
I mean, hell, the whole point of a public release on the official forums is to get a lot of attention, isn't it?
Speaking for myself, I didn't -know- applications like this existed, or that they didn't violate the TOS. I've heard people -say- they existed, primarily in association with macros and farmers, which has been an eternal battle for the game.
BACON brought the scope and nature of the logserver problem to light for me, and it seems like CCP is going through a similar process. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:37:00 -
[667]
Except that CCP knew already about it and did nothing.Same goes for those who are now complaining about the BACON EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Eronysis
Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:42:00 -
[668]
Edited by: Eronysis on 22/04/2008 19:45:25
Quote: While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS
uwerdoinitwrong! Fixed that for ya! |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:49:00 -
[669]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Except that CCP knew already about it and did nothing.Same goes for those who are now complaining about the BACON
WTF, didn't I just write a long post addressing wh...Oh that's right, I'm posting on Eve-O. Silly me. |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:52:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas Just because they can't punish does not mean that they can't disallow. If CPP thinks BACON is against the 'spirit of the game' then they should disallow it 'in the spirit of the game'. Then people using it would be cheaters for real rather then just falsely accused by ignorant people.
Exactly.
So far what CCP has said on the matter can be heard to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is fine in green. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is not in red.
Mean while, most of this thread is just the continued ramblings of people voicing what they think they read into these statements.
I suppose that actions speak louder than words, therefore the fact that this thread is still open and still has links to the application in question, while also containing an acknowledgement from a Lead GM, constitutes explisite consent from CCP that we are allowed to use this application until further notice, no matter what moral objections players might have to it.
I would have much rather CCP had made a more direct statement to the effect: you can use this type of application, but expect us to nerf it soon. |
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:55:00 -
[671]
just wow ...
I have to thank Gunfleet to take this to public. I suspected things like these existed (I am planning to create something similar for market analysis), however some CCP responses make me very uneasy.
It seems CCP is growing a record of scandals with preferential treatment of certain groups of players and security by obscurity politics.
Now the logserver is there to help debuging the client. This means it should not contain (and does not need to contain) any client side data other than function calls, their return codes, data referencing/dereferencing and such.
Also if the machonet cache thingy is true, it's the same problem. You are caching transitional data vital to the game play. It's like swapping out a password into a plain unencrypted password file for everybody to read. |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:58:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas No. The strongest reaction they can give is to forbid its use. 'Frowning' upon it is meaningless.
Calling people cheaters for doing something that CCP stated is not in violation of the EULA is bending the truth.
What is the point of 'forbidding' us from using this software if there is no way they can enforce the ban? Frowning upon this is the strongest reaction they can feasably give and still retain a modicum of respect from the community as the cheaters will still use the software, forbidden or not.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
|
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 19:59:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Ki Anna
Originally by: Torik Tavitas Just because they can't punish does not mean that they can't disallow. If CPP thinks BACON is against the 'spirit of the game' then they should disallow it 'in the spirit of the game'. Then people using it would be cheaters for real rather then just falsely accused by ignorant people.
Exactly.
So far what CCP has said on the matter can be heard to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is fine in green. Originally by: CCP Lingorm I will find out for you.
My initial reaction is that there is nothing 'wrong' with this per say. As long as you are only reading the logserver logfiles not the raw log server output. As these files can be delayed in writing, or if you want an immediate write then it takes up more cpu and disk IO that is your call.
Please do not take this as CCP approval, but I will go ask the appropriate people and get you a definitive answer.
Originally by: GM Grimmi There does not appear to be any violation of our EULA or TOS here so we believe this should be ok. Please be advised that we will thoroughly investigate any reports that would point to the contrary and reserve the right to change our minds if deemed appropriate.
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Statements saying it is not in red.
Mean while, most of this thread is just the continued ramblings of people voicing what they think they read into these statements.
I suppose that actions speak louder than words, therefore the fact that this thread is still open and still has links to the application in question, while also containing an acknowledgement from a Lead GM, constitutes explisite consent from CCP that we are allowed to use this application until further notice, no matter what moral objections players might have to it.
I would have much rather CCP had made a more direct statement to the effect: you can use this type of application, but expect us to nerf it soon.
Which is exactly what I have been trying to say.Until further notice from CCP, the tool is legal and there is no point in complaining about a legal tool. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:02:00 -
[674]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 22/04/2008 20:03:59
Originally by: Ki Anna
I would have much rather CCP had made a more direct statement to the effect: you can use this type of application, but expect us to nerf it soon.
It seems pretty clear to me. I really wouldn't expect anything clearer than Grimmi's post until/unless they come up with a mechanical solution for enforcing any new rules.
They could do it just on principle, and hoping to keep the programs from proliferating. But I think it would do as much harm as good to say "We better not catch you using this!" when it's currently undetectable and unenforcable. All that means is people who respect CCP's opinion on it will be at a disadvantage to people who don't.
edit: Looks like we may be saying close to the same thing, actually. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:03:00 -
[675]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Now the logserver is there to help debuging the client. This means it should not contain (and does not need to contain) any client side data other than function calls, their return codes, data referencing/dereferencing and such.
Problems is, that is the exact sort of information these tools are designed to process. The machonet cache contains similar sorts of data but for the purpose of boosting performance instead of debugging.
If CCP wanted to bar these types of tools, they need only establish it as their policy that the uses of LogServer data for anything other than debugging is an exploit. They could then ramp up the tools needed to enforce that policy. Those violating would be delt with accordingly.
CCP just needs to get out of the habit of making wishy-washy statements: form a policy and state it boldly.
|
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:06:00 -
[676]
Ki Anna, for someone who accuses others of lacking reading comprehension, you need to be educated yourself on the differences between 'explicit' and 'implicit'. The only thing CCP did was imply you won't be banned for using it while they investigate. They did not explicitly state you can use it, especially given how they 'frown upon' its use.
Given CCP's history with similar matters, the only reason they don't declare it an exploit and ban everyone who uses it is because they have no way of telling who uses it and enforcing the rules. They would rather let you cheat while they find solutions than prove themselves flaccid and powerless.
Nonetheless, you cheaters have lost. Go cry about it. :3 _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/ |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:09:00 -
[677]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Ki Anna, for someone who accuses others of lacking reading comprehension, you need to be educated yourself on the differences between 'explicit' and 'implicit'. The only thing CCP did was imply you won't be banned for using it while they investigate. They did not explicitly state you can use it, especially given how they 'frown upon' its use.
Given CCP's history with similar matters, the only reason they don't declare it an exploit and ban everyone who uses it is because they have no way of telling who uses it and enforcing the rules. They would rather let you cheat while they find solutions than prove themselves flaccid and powerless.
Nonetheless, you cheaters have lost. Go cry about it. :3
Again,I wouldn't call this cheating because as of now it doesn't break the EULA or the ToS.If and when CCP makes a clear decision that this and other tools are not legal and inform the community,then that it is cheating. |
Plaetean
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:17:00 -
[678]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
I ♥ GM Grimmi
Thank you for returning my faith in CCP
This!
-----
|
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:18:00 -
[679]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Ki Anna, for someone who accuses others of lacking reading comprehension, you need to be educated yourself on the differences between 'explicit' and 'implicit'. The only thing CCP did was imply you won't be banned for using it while they investigate. They did not explicitly state you can use it, especially given how they 'frown upon' its use.
They were 'explicit' in their approval: read the quotes highlighted in green. Originally by: DigitalCommunist Given CCP's history with similar matters, the only reason they don't declare it an exploit and ban everyone who uses it is because they have no way of telling who uses it and enforcing the rules. They would rather let you cheat while they find solutions than prove themselves flaccid and powerless.
It is that policy that I am critising. Originally by: DigitalCommunist Nonetheless, you cheaters we players have lost. Go cry about it. :3
I have no intentions of using this application, nor do I care what CCP's final policy is on this application.
What I do care about is CCP's clear and consistant statement of their policies. All of use players lose when CCP doesn't say what they mean or do what they say.
|
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:29:00 -
[680]
Stop being stupid in my presence, you're insulting humanity.
The EULA/TS are a series of enforcement guidelines and nothing more. They're not there to describe, in detail, every possible situation. They're not taking any action because they can't prove you're using this tool, not because they don't want to, or because the EULA says not to. Otherwise, why would they be frowning upon this tool?
Oh yeah, cause you just modified gampelay with a completely new mechanic. Damn cheaters. I would punish you in the name of the Moon, if it didn't involve stepping off my gloriously high horse. |
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The TX
Gallente Earth Inc. Zeta Tau Epsilon
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:36:00 -
[681]
I'll take a bacon sandwich please.
|
Disteeler
Segunda Fundacion T e r c i o s
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:39:00 -
[682]
\o/
Sig by Black Necris |
Zirator
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:42:00 -
[683]
There are two things that disgust me in this topic:
a: The OP claiming that he ( or his corporation ) is proud to publish this tool.
b: The people that fail to understand that the only reason that CCP isn't stating that this tool is forbidden is because they can't police it.
People claim that this tool is used by various groups in EVE. I personally have seen a couple of alliances and in none of these I have witnissed someone speaking about using such a tool or reading something about it on the internal alliance forum.
|
Sekhen
Caldari Majestic-5
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:42:00 -
[684]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
*Bra bla bla*
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Translated: If you want to play a game that has lots of "mods" that help you in your gameplay, one of our competitors (Blizzard/Vivendi) offer exactly that product (Worlf of Warcraft).
Here we play the game as it is and on equal terms. ------------------------------------------------ Stating personal opinions as facts is stupid. But thats just my opinion.
1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 45,255 skillPoints. |
Enraged Stoat
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:47:00 -
[685]
Edited by: Enraged Stoat on 22/04/2008 20:47:46 If the logs were originally intended as a debug aid then the quick fix is to disable it if the client connects to the live server. You do have a test server to test on, right?
As to the local yes/no question. Local system, constellation or region, whatever, as long as (a) everyone shows up on it, and (b) it can be told to filter by standings then I for one would be happy.
No, being able to enter a system/const/region totally undetected is NOT acceptable. Under ANY circumstance. If we have the technology to build spaceships the size of cities, then we also have the technology to monitor a giant structure like a stargate and tell when it's activated and whether whoever activated it is friendly (or not)?
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Endeva
Caldari Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:48:00 -
[686]
Edited by: Endeva on 22/04/2008 20:49:12
funny to see bruce and hydra defending this:) someone would say your allainces are full of isk farmers:)
normal person that likes eve and play game for fun would never use things like this
edit: maybe ccp can make exception and give you guys cheat for money so you can play eve on easier mode
Eve needs changes asap |
Nemtar Nataal
Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 20:54:00 -
[687]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
My Hero Sorry guys but if you are to lasy to pay attention to local chat, you deserve to loos your ship. This is not AFK-Online. Game was not ment to be easy, it was ment to be fun...
|
Lurana Lay
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:04:00 -
[688]
Quote: and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer
Why just now?
This sort and other similar things has been around a while, and not just the Goons either.
Why? Because the general public knows about it and now has some access, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE?! |
Uberapan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:07:00 -
[689]
Edited by: Uberapan on 22/04/2008 21:06:51 Thanks, CCP!
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KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:27:00 -
[690]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
And while you are at it can you please, for the love of God, get rid of local also? Thanks. |
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Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:30:00 -
[691]
Originally by: KapnKaboom And while you are at it can you please, for the love of God, get rid of local also? Thanks.
I'm sure they'll get right on that for you |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:31:00 -
[692]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist The EULA/TS are a series of enforcement guidelines and nothing more. They're not there to describe, in detail, every possible situation. They're not taking any action because they can't prove you're using this tool, not because they don't want to, or because the EULA says not to. Otherwise, why would they be frowning upon this tool?
Oh yeah, cause you just modified gampelay with a completely new mechanic. Damn cheaters. I would punish you in the name of the Moon, if it didn't involve stepping off my gloriously high horse.
Well, CCP could easily declare BACON and exploit and delete/lock this thread. However, it remains open. Do you think that because in many cases you can't prove that someone's not using a macro, CCP will allow a topic with a link to download a macro, and discussion of the same?
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Personally I see this as a double standard which doesn't promise much for fairness
Who said this game is fair?
Seriously. If some alliances have sufficiently competent members to create EVE tools, why should they not thereby gain an advantge? |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:34:00 -
[693]
Originally by: Cori4n Well, CCP could easily declare BACON and exploit and delete/lock this thread. However, it remains open. Do you think that because in many cases you can't prove that someone's not using a macro, CCP will allow a topic with a link to download a macro, and discussion of the same?
Exactly! |
Lady Natacha
Minmatar Water and Power
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:34:00 -
[694]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
I smell fried-BACON |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:34:00 -
[695]
Originally by: Sekhen If you want to play a game that has lots of "mods" that help you in your gameplay, one of our competitors (Blizzard/Vivendi) offer exactly that product (Worlf of Warcraft).
Here we play the game as it is and on equal terms.
And what the heck is this? Does WoW have static data dumps? An API? A dev blog titled "Third Party Development"? Tools like evemon and EFT which are made possible by the former?
Since when was the spirit of EVE ultraconservative with respect to development? |
Dictum Factum
Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:35:00 -
[696]
I had no personal problem with the existance of this program until the message today from CCP. I find it a bit disturbing that programs like this were just fine with CCP until the "masses" found out about them. That, to me, is worse than the programs themselves. |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:42:00 -
[697]
Originally by: Dictum Factum I had no personal problem with the existance of this program until the message today from CCP. I find it a bit disturbing that programs like this were just fine with CCP until the "masses" found out about them. That, to me, is worse than the programs themselves.
Because now it is a double-standard. The alliances could use automated un-detectable tools all they wanted until the public found out and there was suddenly this vocal minority that started yelling about. I was dabbling in it, but since GM Gemm's response, I've terminated any dabbling, and configuring. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
|
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:43:00 -
[698]
Originally by: Dictum Factum I had no personal problem with the existance of this program until the message today from CCP. I find it a bit disturbing that programs like this were just fine with CCP until the "masses" found out about them. That, to me, is worse than the programs themselves.
As long as you are not surprised that they knew. It's like some people just don't want to give CCP any credit at all.
Perhaps they were already working on a way to stop this type of program and didn't feel the need to discuss it openly?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
|
Dictum Factum
Gemini Sun Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 21:53:00 -
[699]
Originally by: Wet Ferret As long as you are not surprised that they knew.
Not so much that they knew, more that they would approve that information to be released in the manner that it was.
On an unrelated note, your signature catches me almost every time that I read one of you posts. Plus 5 high-ground haxx bonus for you, Wet Ferret.
I know less than you think I do. |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:07:00 -
[700]
Excellent.
|
|
Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:13:00 -
[701]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Excellent news. Well done CCP.
EvE blogspace, free! Max Torps CSM Candidate |
Lorna Loot
Caldari Nox Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:15:00 -
[702]
[insert random joke regarding bacon in the pan/oven/grill etc.]
Great news :) --------------------- Nox Eternus is Recruiting, contact me or Sgt Shazz ingame for info. |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:16:00 -
[703]
Originally by: Max Torps Excellent news. Well done CCP.
Well done what? They haven't actually done anything yet. |
Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:17:00 -
[704]
Originally by: Lorna Loot [insert random joke regarding bacon in the pan/oven/grill etc.]
I used bacon is off the menu in my blog. I thought it was funny at the time... |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:18:00 -
[705]
Originally by: Ki Anna
Originally by: Cori4n Well, CCP could easily declare BACON and exploit and delete/lock this thread. However, it remains open. Do you think that because in many cases you can't prove that someone's not using a macro, CCP will allow a topic with a link to download a macro, and discussion of the same?
Exactly!
*sigh*
You are not reading and understanding what DigitalCommunist, among others, is saying. Try to actually READ and find out WHY CCP can't just state that it's forbidden. Is that really too much to ask?
|
Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:19:00 -
[706]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: Max Torps Excellent news. Well done CCP.
Well done what? They haven't actually done anything yet.
They've acknowledged that they will do something which is progress on yesterday where it was allowed. Am I missing your point? |
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:21:00 -
[707]
I don't know if saying "We're working on it." counts as doing something, as it isn't a result. I mean, what was said was "We never intended." But nor do we have a time-frame, nor is there a concrete reason to not use it other than ethics. |
Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:25:00 -
[708]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh I don't know if saying "We're working on it." counts as doing something, as it isn't a result. I mean, what was said was "We never intended." But nor do we have a time-frame, nor is there a concrete reason to not use it other than ethics.
You speak the truth. We do have a promise that it is being "looked at" which is better than "this looks ok". So I guess all we can do is monitor and ensure it gets followed through. I look at that as a step forward. |
bLuEbErRy MuFfInMaN
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:30:00 -
[709]
Edited by: bLuEbErRy MuFfInMaN on 22/04/2008 22:30:21
WOW Sorry for you empire warriors LOL
|
Fifth Horseman
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:32:00 -
[710]
In the meantime, could you search all the alliance mails for "BACON" because I'm at war with an alliance that, in the last two days, suddenly gained unnatural docking abilities. |
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:54:00 -
[711]
pfff another tool to make ppl blob more and make roaming and small gangs less effective i hope you are proud of yourselfs.
This tool should be banned as it ruins gamplay for small roaming gangs it makes 0.0 even more save.
|
Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 22:56:00 -
[712]
Originally by: Maliber pfff another tool to make ppl blob more and make roaming and small gangs less effective i hope you are proud of yourselfs.
This tool should be banned as it ruins gamplay for small roaming gangs it makes 0.0 even more save.
You could have quoted maybe... ten other posts in this thread without actually having to write something, since it's just a restatement already.
You can't ban this program, because it's a read-only program. Can't detect it. So, how would CCP ban people? -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:02:00 -
[713]
i was just voicing my opinion. Which is ok on any forum. Ccp should just fix logserver so it no longer passes these messages and bacon is broke. Problem solved. Its just that i think this program breaks a part of eve I like... Roaming...
I also encourage ppl to find security holes in bacon so i can post code in local and crash/freeze bacon using ppl and gank em while they are ratting. Maybe inject some kind of malicous code or something. As local is for chat only and the logserver wont be affected i would technicaly not break any eula or tos rules.....
|
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:10:00 -
[714]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 22/04/2008 23:11:59
Originally by: Maliber i was just voicing my opinion. Which is ok on any forum. Ccp should just fix logserver so it no longer passes these messages and bacon is broke. Problem solved. Its just that i think this program breaks a part of eve I like... Roaming...
I also encourage ppl to find security holes in bacon so i can post code in local and crash/freeze bacon using ppl and gank em while they are ratting. Maybe inject some kind of malicous code or something. As local is for chat only and the logserver wont be affected i would technicaly not break any eula or tos rules.....
I'm sure it's that simple and they've just never thought about that at all. Genius.
Also: two wrongs... etc
Edit- I apologize for responding to non-constructive posts with more non-constructive posts, and hereby dismiss myself from this thread
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:12:00 -
[715]
Edited by: Maliber on 22/04/2008 23:13:05
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Maliber i was just voicing my opinion. .... Its just that i think this program breaks a part of eve I like... Roaming...
plz break tha program.....
I'm sure it's that simple and they've just never thought about that at all. Genius.
Also: two wrongs... etc
i simpified the post for you. Still something wrong....
p.s. ow and it ruins small roaming gangs...
|
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:18:00 -
[716]
Originally by: RebelWithACause Whether you like BACON or not, how can this not bug EVERYONE on this thread? CCP has openly admitted that they KNEW others were ALREADY using similar tools... We just had the guts to bring it to light, for better or worse.
Because if they knew about it, didn't like it and were working to change stuff so they wouldn't work anymore, all you did was tell people it existed before they made their changes that kill it? |
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:21:00 -
[717]
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: Ki Anna Until you make whatever changes you will be making, are tools that read realtime data from the LogServer allowed or disallowed?
Quote: While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS
Quote: we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
|
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:28:00 -
[718]
Originally by: Lurana Lay
Quote: and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer
Why just now?
This sort and other similar things has been around a while, and not just the Goons either.
Why? Because the general public knows about it and now has some access, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE?!
Where does he imply they haven't been working on changes to prevent cheats like this from working, since before the public thread? It's not like CCP's devs don't play the game, or are only in 1-2 alliances (well I'd hope not anyways).
|
Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:32:00 -
[719]
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: Sekhen If you want to play a game that has lots of "mods" that help you in your gameplay, one of our competitors (Blizzard/Vivendi) offer exactly that product (Worlf of Warcraft).
Here we play the game as it is and on equal terms.
And what the heck is this? Does WoW have static data dumps? An API? A dev blog titled "Third Party Development"? Tools like evemon and EFT which are made possible by the former?
Since when was the spirit of EVE ultraconservative with respect to development?
You fail in realizing EFT and EVE-mon do not automate any aspect of game play for you. EVE-mon does not change skills, and EFT doesn't fit your ship for you. BACON watches local for you.
|
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:53:00 -
[720]
Originally by: Kvirie ... stuff...
I totaly agree...
|
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RebelWithACause
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 23:58:00 -
[721]
Trolling aside, let's look at the evidence:
1) CCP is the final word in interpretation of the EULA/TOS. They wrote it, they interpret it, they enforce it. Any arguments to the contrary are moot. CCP has neither endorsed nor condemned BACON, but has stayed in the middle.
2) BACON is a side-effect of the information available in the logserver. Due to the nature of the logserver, it is technically unfeasible to even detect the use of it. Contrary to a previous statement, it is EXTREMELY easy to randomize the process and executable name of any similar tool.
3) CCP's own statement is that they have known that there are "many similar tools currently used", and it's an "unintended use of information" link, which openly shows previous knowledge and inaction for similar tools.
4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it. Defending CCP by saying that we shouldn't have released it because it uncovered a hole is silly. Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Where does this leave us? Simple.
- If a hole exists, ASSUME a tool will be written to take advantage of it, EULA-compliant or not. Whether you like it or not, don't blame the tool; instead, plug the hole.
There are few options to accomplish this:
Q) Incorporate BACON functionality into the EvE Client, or do nothing and declare the use of the information free and clear. A) Unlikely, given previous statements by CCP.
Q) Change the EULA to encompass 'unintended use' of the LogServer and cache information A) Pointless. Fine, if you catch someone (yeah, right), ban them. All this does is sweep the problem under the carpet, and once again provides security through obscurity.
Q) Encrypt the logserver and cache information, only decryptable by CCP. A) Iffy... while hard to break if done right (unlikely), the issue with trust concerning CCP and 'favored' alliances is too disturbing to think about.
Q) Remove Local Chat. A) An interesting solution that has been discussed. Solves problem, but is a sweeping change to the game.
Others (constructive)?
|
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 00:27:00 -
[722]
Edited by: Cori4n on 23/04/2008 00:29:23
Originally by: Maliber I also encourage ppl to find security holes in bacon so i can post code in local and crash/freeze bacon using ppl and gank em while they are ratting. Maybe inject some kind of malicous code or something. As local is for chat only and the logserver wont be affected i would technicaly not break any eula or tos rules.....
I posted earlier how it might be possible to cause BACON to incorrectly log an arrival/exit. I would really appreciate if someone who can actually get BACON to work would try it out.
And no, Ki An, despite having read every post in the thread, I cannot understand why it would not be possible for CCP (if this is what they wanted) to announce that using BACON is now an exploit.
I do not agree with RebelWithACause's statement regarding "eula compliant or not". The information is available if you are willing to violate the EULA (assuming they encrypt the logserver, I can think of 3 ways offhand) and there is nothing anyone can do about that. However, most people, like me, would not use a eula violating application.
P.S. Don't drag MachoNet into this, it is CCP approved like the logserver had been, however unlike the logserver it is delayed. The only information it has (aside from a version of what we already get from the static data dump) is some misc not very useful things like market orders (but only for items that you looked at) and corp standings (should be in the API anyway).
|
RebelWithACause
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 00:52:00 -
[723]
Originally by: Cori4n
I do not agree with RebelWithACause's statement regarding "eula compliant or not". The information is available if you are willing to violate the EULA (assuming they encrypt the logserver, I can think of 3 ways offhand) and there is nothing anyone can do about that. However, most people, like me, would not use a eula violating application.
Same here. My point was just that don't assume that for others. I would not use a tool deemed against the EULA, as determined by CCP. However, I DO make the assumption that others do and will. It's the tenet of ANY good security person that if a hole exists in any protocol or data structure, assume people will take advantage of it. I completely expect there to be people that write non-EULA-compliant hacks, just as much as I expect people to write valid tools, as we believe we did (hence the openness).
Originally by: Cori4n
P.S. Don't drag MachoNet into this, it is CCP approved like the logserver had been, however unlike the logserver it is delayed. The only information it has (aside from a version of what we already get from the static data dump) is some misc not very useful things like market orders (but only for items that you looked at) and corp standings (should be in the API anyway).
I will concede this point - the only reason I included it was for the 'unintended' clause. If there were a way to use MachoNet cache info to do something that gave someone an advantage in ANY way that is yet undiscovered, you know the fervor would be just as strong.
|
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:28:00 -
[724]
Originally by: Sekhen
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
*Bra bla bla*
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Translated: If you want to play a game that has lots of "mods" that help you in your gameplay, one of our competitors (Blizzard/Vivendi) offer exactly that product (Worlf of Warcraft).
Here we play the game as it is and on equal terms.
Equal terms?I don't think so,if CCP bans Bacon and such tools while allowing other alliances/corp to use similar tools EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:36:00 -
[725]
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: DigitalCommunist The EULA/TS are a series of enforcement guidelines and nothing more. They're not there to describe, in detail, every possible situation. They're not taking any action because they can't prove you're using this tool, not because they don't want to, or because the EULA says not to. Otherwise, why would they be frowning upon this tool?
Oh yeah, cause you just modified gampelay with a completely new mechanic. Damn cheaters. I would punish you in the name of the Moon, if it didn't involve stepping off my gloriously high horse.
Well, CCP could easily declare BACON and exploit and delete/lock this thread. However, it remains open. Do you think that because in many cases you can't prove that someone's not using a macro, CCP will allow a topic with a link to download a macro, and discussion of the same?
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Personally I see this as a double standard which doesn't promise much for fairness
Who said this game is fair?
Seriously. If some alliances have sufficiently competent members to create EVE tools, why should they not thereby gain an advantge?
I am not talking about alliances and corps.Any alliance/corp should make as many legal tools as possible and keep them secret as much as they wish. My point on fairness is about CCP and also about all the complainers.Until Bacon was released to the public nor CCP, nor the complainers went in such a "posting" state,however as soon as BACON was made public and provided a great tool for the masses,we see people complaining and CCP "reacting". Now if CCP bans all such tools and provides proof that no alliance/corp is allowed to use such tools,no matter CCP preferances, then that would be fair. But if they only ban BACON and still leave that loophole, then it is not fair and it is a double standard. Bottom line for CCP and the complainers is that you cant't have it both ways.You can't say BACON is immoral,illegal or a cheat,while having alliances/corps using the same type of tools under the rug.
Which brings me to my next point.BACON is not a cheat.It is a tool that makes live easier and more secure.It is also a tool that can provide additional tactical opportunities. It is additionally not a cheat since to quote CCP "it doesn't technically violate the EULA/ToS".
As far as being moral,since when has war become moral? |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:39:00 -
[726]
Originally by: Kvirie
Originally by: Cori4n
Originally by: Sekhen If you want to play a game that has lots of "mods" that help you in your gameplay, one of our competitors (Blizzard/Vivendi) offer exactly that product (Worlf of Warcraft).
Here we play the game as it is and on equal terms.
And what the heck is this? Does WoW have static data dumps? An API? A dev blog titled "Third Party Development"? Tools like evemon and EFT which are made possible by the former?
Since when was the spirit of EVE ultraconservative with respect to development?
You fail in realizing EFT and EVE-mon do not automate any aspect of game play for you. EVE-mon does not change skills, and EFT doesn't fit your ship for you. BACON watches local for you.
And,your point? Last I checked BACON doesn't modify skills nor fit your ship for you.All it does is provide a warning system equal to the military radar and warning systems |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:44:00 -
[727]
Edited by: Cori4n on 23/04/2008 01:44:32
Originally by: RebelWithACause I will concede this point - the only reason I included it was for the 'unintended' clause. If there were a way to use MachoNet cache info to do something that gave someone an advantage in ANY way that is yet undiscovered, you know the fervor would be just as strong.
I'm just a bit worried that if CCP amends the EULA to deal with BACON, they will also prohibit access to the cachefiles; since there are a few apps like RDB that make use of them, it would be a shame if they were included in a blanket prohibition. |
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:47:00 -
[728]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Last I checked BACON doesn't modify skills nor fit your ship for you.
This :D
Just from a utility perspective, Evemon and EFT change the game much more drastically than BACON ever could. Certainly, I am too lazy to use evemon, and I am punished for it by missing days' worth of training.
I suspect that the fervor about BACON is not due to the advantage it gives to those who use it, but rather that if everyone used it, some groups (carebears) would benefit more than others. Which, I suppose, is fair, since it could then disrupt the balance of the game...
|
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:49:00 -
[729]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 23/04/2008 01:53:49
Originally by: RebelWithACause 4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it.
If BACON doesn't automate a thing, why did you advertise it with the slogan "Never be surprised again"?
Could it be that BACON automates watching your own back?
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:54:00 -
[730]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 23/04/2008 01:51:02 Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 23/04/2008 01:50:30
Originally by: RebelWithACause 4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it.
If BACON doesn't automate anything, why did you advertise it with the slogan "Never be surprised again"?
Could it be that BACON automates watching your own back?
It doesn't automate anything except giving you warning sounds. Like I have said before.BACON is the Eve version of a military radar and warning system EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
|
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:55:00 -
[731]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 23/04/2008 01:51:02 Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 23/04/2008 01:50:30
Originally by: RebelWithACause 4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it.
If BACON doesn't automate anything, why did you advertise it with the slogan "Never be surprised again"?
Could it be that BACON automates watching your own back?
It doesn't automate anything except giving you warning sounds. Like I have said before.BACON is the Eve version of a military radar and warning system
Well clearly, you're wrong and not so clever as your alliance claims.
Military radar and warning systems are automated systems.
So is BACON.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
0prah
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:56:00 -
[732]
It's an alarm BOT! Designed to serve Macro Miners!
Whoever designed this tool should be castrated, oh wait.. I guess that isn't possible due to a lack of dangleberries which is why the tool was created right?
|
Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 01:59:00 -
[733]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds If BACON doesn't automate a thing, why did you advertise it with the slogan "Never be surprised again"?
ITT: My web browser is a cheat because it automates the mundane task of waiting for rats to come in range by loading my home page, whereas otherwise I would have to type in a url manually
|
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 02:00:00 -
[734]
Quote: Military radar and warning systems exist due to a lack of dangleberries which is why they were created, right?
|
DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 02:20:00 -
[735]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Coming home to this definitely made my day
<3 CCP, I promise I'll never (rarely) badmouth you again. |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 02:45:00 -
[736]
Originally by: DroneBay Diva
Edit: Yes, I would also like to thank (you heard me) Gunfleet for bringing this to the public eye and therefor level the playing field for everyone.
Honestly, we're not married to BACON. And you're welcome.
|
Lurana Lay
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 02:58:00 -
[737]
Originally by: RebelWithACause Trolling aside, let's look at the evidence:
1) CCP is the final word in interpretation of the EULA/TOS. They wrote it, they interpret it, they enforce it. Any arguments to the contrary are moot. CCP has neither endorsed nor condemned BACON, but has stayed in the middle.
2) BACON is a side-effect of the information available in the logserver. Due to the nature of the logserver, it is technically unfeasible to even detect the use of it. Contrary to a previous statement, it is EXTREMELY easy to randomize the process and executable name of any similar tool.
3) CCP's own statement is that they have known that there are "many similar tools currently used", and it's an "unintended use of information" link, which openly shows previous knowledge and inaction for similar tools.
4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it. Defending CCP by saying that we shouldn't have released it because it uncovered a hole is silly. Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Where does this leave us? Simple.
- If a hole exists, ASSUME a tool will be written to take advantage of it, EULA-compliant or not. Whether you like it or not, don't blame the tool; instead, plug the hole.
There are few options to accomplish this:
Q) Incorporate BACON functionality into the EvE Client, or do nothing and declare the use of the information free and clear. A) Unlikely, given previous statements by CCP.
Q) Change the EULA to encompass 'unintended use' of the LogServer and cache information A) Pointless. Fine, if you catch someone (yeah, right), ban them. All this does is sweep the problem under the carpet, and once again provides security through obscurity.
Q) Encrypt the logserver and cache information, only decryptable by CCP. A) Iffy... while hard to break if done right (unlikely), the issue with trust concerning CCP and 'favored' alliances is too disturbing to think about.
Q) Remove Local Chat. A) An interesting solution that has been discussed. Solves problem, but is a sweeping change to the game.
Others (constructive)?
Great post. The highlighted part is the most compelling statement in this entire monster thread.
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NCTaark
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Posted - 2008.04.23 03:20:00 -
[738]
Congratulations GFL! Three days old as a topic and 26 pages worth of inferno, that is pretty impressive!
GFL and I have had our issues in the past; I told them putting 'Logistics' at the end of the name made them look like carebears, but they just didn't listen to me. They can flame away as they please, because I know they all want to turn me into a frozen squishy that they can trophy collect in their hangers. . . they can try at least
This uses publicly available data in a new, inventive, and transparent method. EULA violation: maybe, maybe not, leave that for the lawyers.
Early warning radar? Please . . . If you are that concerned about it unbalancing your carebearwargankage; overload the 'sensor' by jumping a shuttle with a zero skill point alt, into system every 5 minutes for about two hours. By the end of the hour you have a bunch of panicking station huddled carebears, on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and you are laughing at their terror. OR they start to ignore the system (or turn it off) and they are available for killing. Be creative, stop complaining.
It is an arms race. This is the evolution of weapon smith vs the armorer; Ventrillo and TS offered the same advantage to fleet coordination once upon a time. Then tactics changed and evolved, to match that development. When people saw fleets enter their system they all hit their 'pushtotalk' and screamed "DOCKSKI!", so people started using scout/tacklers, so local wouldn't jump as much and the tackler could go unnoticed, when that stopped working people started using bait tanks, and then bubbles Blah blah etc etc.
This is just combat evolving: predator vs prey. Deal with it as a fact of an ever changing life, evolve around it, adapt to it, or develop something better. Keeping it open and available, to all, is better then having it locked away, creating segregated and advantaged communities. Everything has consequences, intended and unintended, this is no different, if anything, this serves to level some playing fields, as much, (if not more) then it effects the empire wars. Because it breaks the holds of the small advantaged communities. Offering that advantage to all, makes no one an advantaged community.
Taark
(PS: Interesting idea guys. I probably won't use it because I'm happy with my local undocked on the left side of my client. I've been swimming in reds for the last 10 months, so I have no interest in listening to warnings every 15 seconds as they come and go.)
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Eronysis
Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 03:32:00 -
[739]
Edited by: Eronysis on 23/04/2008 03:34:36
Dear CCP,
After digesting all of this and hearing my beloved corpmates whine/debate/whine/cry/cheer etc... I think I have come up with a final and even more profitable solution! Step 1 Encrypt logserver
Step 2 Release HAM(tm) you know that product you have had in "development" for almost a year now and in "testing" with certain "select" peoples...the one that monitors logserver data and now has value added ENCRYPTION KEYS.
Problem solved and status Quo maintained...
Step 3 Release MOM(tm)(Moans over Myhammy) as PREMIUM content!
Step 4 Profits! More brennivin and rotten shark for all!
Warmest Regards,
Eronysis
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.23 03:43:00 -
[740]
Originally by: NCTaark Congratulations GFL! Three days old as a topic and 26 pages worth of inferno, that is pretty impressive!
GFL and I have had our issues in the past; I told them putting 'Logistics' at the end of the name made them look like carebears, but they just didn't listen to me. They can flame away as they please, because I know they all want to turn me into a frozen squishy that they can trophy collect in their hangers. . . they can try at least
This uses publicly available data in a new, inventive, and transparent method. EULA violation: maybe, maybe not, leave that for the lawyers.
Early warning radar? Please . . . If you are that concerned about it unbalancing your carebearwargankage; overload the 'sensor' by jumping a shuttle with a zero skill point alt, into system every 5 minutes for about two hours. By the end of the hour you have a bunch of panicking station huddled carebears, on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and you are laughing at their terror. OR they start to ignore the system (or turn it off) and they are available for killing. Be creative, stop complaining.
It is an arms race. This is the evolution of weapon smith vs the armorer; Ventrillo and TS offered the same advantage to fleet coordination once upon a time. Then tactics changed and evolved, to match that development. When people saw fleets enter their system they all hit their 'pushtotalk' and screamed "DOCKSKI!", so people started using scout/tacklers, so local wouldn't jump as much and the tackler could go unnoticed, when that stopped working people started using bait tanks, and then bubbles Blah blah etc etc.
This is just combat evolving: predator vs prey. Deal with it as a fact of an ever changing life, evolve around it, adapt to it, or develop something better. Keeping it open and available, to all, is better then having it locked away, creating segregated and advantaged communities. Everything has consequences, intended and unintended, this is no different, if anything, this serves to level some playing fields, as much, (if not more) then it effects the empire wars. Because it breaks the holds of the small advantaged communities. Offering that advantage to all, makes no one an advantaged community.
Taark
(PS: Interesting idea guys. I probably won't use it because I'm happy with my local undocked on the left side of my client. I've been swimming in reds for the last 10 months, so I have no interest in listening to warnings every 15 seconds as they come and go.)
Very nice post. Love it. And you said the word: arm races. And again,I will repeat what I said before.If you so don't like the tool,find a way to code a counter tool or something.Then the BACON guys will probably find a way to bypass your counter and the arm race continues. EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
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DroneBay Diva
AbChao Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.04.23 04:41:00 -
[741]
Originally by: NCTaark Congratulations GFL! Three days old as a topic and 26 pages worth of inferno, that is pretty impressive!
It is pretty impressive
Reminds of the 'Why BoB are Losing' series by James 315.
/me awaits a 'Why Goons are Losing' thread. |
MrYellow
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Posted - 2008.04.23 08:44:00 -
[742]
My eve-job is sitting in a system all day reporting any incoming.
My real-job at home and at work is programming.
As such although I can have eve open I can't always have it up infront of what I have focus on. Such as now when I write this post.
This tool allows me to better enjoy eve without wasting hours looking at local when I could be making money to pay CCPs fees.
-Ben
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Zurrar
Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.04.23 08:57:00 -
[743]
wasnt GFL that cult that was raided in texas (yet again) this past month? |
eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 08:59:00 -
[744]
Originally by: MrYellow My eve-job is sitting in a system all day reporting any incoming.
My real-job at home and at work is programming.
This tool allows me to better enjoy eve without wasting hours looking at local when I could be making money to pay CCPs fees.
funny... so you play a game where you just reporting intel and you should be able to automate that process to a) increase you enjoyment of said reporting and b) earn cashmoneeeeey as a bedroom codemonkey in order to pay for your ability to do said reporting?
how ever did you cope last week when this tool wasn't available to bandwagoneers such as yourself? |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:08:00 -
[745]
Originally by: RebelWithACause Trolling aside, let's look at the evidence:
4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it. Defending CCP by saying that we shouldn't have released it because it uncovered a hole is silly. Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Others (constructive)?
I must disagree with this statement. It does automate a action: looking at local chat and prosessing the changes in local for you. followed by alerting you when a undesired change occors. Thus requiring LESS mental effort and/or capacity of the user. While the information is present you change it to require less effort.
Lets look up automation on wikipedia, i've enboldend the relevant sections: Automation (ancient Greek: = self dictated), roboticization[1] or industrial automation or numerical control is the use of control systems such as computers to control industrial machinery and processes, replacing human operators.[1] In the scope of industrialization, it is a step beyond mechanization. Whereas mechanization provided human operators with machinery to assist them with the physical requirements of work, automation greatly reduces the need for human sensory and mental requirements as well. Processes and systems can also be automated.
While you are correct on the fact that security trough obscurity never works. And i must say its good that you guys made it public. BUT this doesnt explain why you seem to be in favour of the use of such a "exploit/security hole". Its clear that it gains ppl already in a system a advantage and this is probably why there is a heated debate about it.
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MrYellow
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:19:00 -
[746]
Originally by: eeevans funny... so you play a game where you just reporting intel and you should be able to automate that process to a) increase you enjoyment of said reporting and b) earn cashmoneeeeey as a bedroom codemonkey in order to pay for your ability to do said reporting?
Actually I'm a professional programmer with years of experiance but hey.....
My time is valuable. I want to play eve. However.... There isn't always much happening in eve depending on how quiet your area is.
So my enjoyment of the game and life is increased if I can be alerted when fun has arrived. Then I fight.
Currently I have many hours of being on TS and looking at local waiting for fun to arrive.
If I could go on with my life during those hours and then switch windows and start playing when there is some play to be had, that would be great.
CCP please implement these alerts as in-game features..... or just remove local altogether.
-Ben
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:23:00 -
[747]
Originally by: MrYellow Actually I'm a professional programmer with years of experiance but hey.....
My time is valuable. I want to play eve. However.... There isn't always much happening in eve depending on how quiet your area is.
So my enjoyment of the game and life is increased if I can be alerted when fun has arrived. Then I fight.
Currently I have many hours of being on TS and looking at local waiting for fun to arrive.
If I could go on with my life during those hours and then switch windows and start playing when there is some play to be had, that would be great.
CCP please implement these alerts as in-game features..... or just remove local altogether.
-Ben
Maybe you should *gasp* go find fun for yourself instead of waiting for it to come to you? Or you could get a macro to do your pvp for you as you are so pressed for time.
Or, you could play a game that requires less time. After all, if you don't have time to play a game, you probably shouldn't.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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MrYellow
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:28:00 -
[748]
Maybe defending space is more important/fun to me then griefing.
Each to their own, you're obviously upset that this prog allows some to have a slightly increased change of avoiding you trying to ruin their day.
-Ben
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eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:35:00 -
[749]
Originally by: MrYellow CCP please implement these alerts as in-game features..... or just remove local altogether.
hehe, so you want alerts; a ccp developed, in-built bacon, so you can "carry on with life" and "have fun" when "fun arrives"...
or...
you want to remove local completely... which is totally the same thing, right?
i'd love to see your code sometime :D
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:39:00 -
[750]
Edited by: Ki An on 23/04/2008 09:39:15
Originally by: MrYellow Maybe defending space is more important/fun to me then griefing.
You're pretty dumb for a computer programmer. Don't they teach logic in computer programmer school?
Originally by: MrYellow
Each to their own, you're obviously upset that this prog allows some to have a slightly increased change of avoiding you trying to ruin their day.
Not upset at all, since CCP doesn't like this program and are working to make it useless.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:46:00 -
[751]
Just in case somebody missed it: MrYellow is a COMPUTER PROGRAMMER! His time is valuable! We should all let him cheat.
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Schani Kratnorr
x13
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:57:00 -
[752]
Why is this thread still going?
Why has anyone not yet reported the hidden keylogging in the software?
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Anub1s
Amarr Return of the Anub1s
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Posted - 2008.04.23 10:16:00 -
[753]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr Why is this thread still going?
Why has anyone not yet reported the hidden keylogging in the software?
Is it ?
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Aclyn Seriy
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.23 10:47:00 -
[754]
I would just like clarification from a Dev or GM regarding the use of of "similar programs" by some of the larger alliances.
Since it is well known that CCP staff have toons within these alliances, and that in the past some of these staff have shown a predisposition to unethical behaviour, it does not engender a feeling of fair and equal treatment when it comes to dealing with such matters as these.
I would not be alone in wondering wether the alliances would continue to get "special treatment" What reassurances can CCP provide that "similar programs" to bacon used by said alliances will also cease to function?
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Lin Haraka
Legio Conquistus Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 10:49:00 -
[755]
Ok after reeading 6 pages of this I just have to say something in my own form (tho its already said but its important for me to emphasize this in order to show how ****ed off I am about all this meat slice nonsense)
On with the show
Ok BACON yes I installed and analyzed it (so i know what im talking about) and yes i uninstalled it because its an exploit a cheat a piece of code with no good intent.
Hokay
Voicecomms can NOOOOT (Borat) be compared to Bacon. Humans are known to error and it takes time and resources to actually monitor gates space or what not.
Bacon on the other hand does this automatically so if its set up nicely it can even pronounce the names of the targets hostiles etc. I havent analyzed the logs that thoroughly but Im interested in what kind of info does the client receive when you jump in to a system apart that you are in what else? Shiptype velocity fitting??! Where does it end? Do you want some stupid program to just spell it out for you? Even call you Sir maybe pump up your ego a bit, hell make it with a hotline voice thatll get things running.
It just doesnt work guys. I wish CCP said NO, detectable or not they better threaten the people and get rid of the whole client side logserv routine.
There is upsides to Bacon yes you get advantage but whats next macro miners developing chat bots according to logs pretending they are AT the keyboard instead of AWAY from it ?!
CCP I recommend buying a truckload of BANana'z and start handing them out. Because this Bacon bussiness wont be good for anybody.
Kisses and hugs to all hardworking oldschool reasonable pilots
Lin Haraka supports you!
EDIT: Ki An 4 El Prezidente
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MOS DEF
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:33:00 -
[756]
CCP talk about the local problem for over 3 years now but haven't actually done a thing. Now if this isn't a reason to pull the finger out of the ass and start fixing the problem nothing is. |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:44:00 -
[757]
Originally by: Aclyn Seriy I would just like clarification from a Dev or GM regarding the use of of "similar programs" by some of the larger alliances.
Since it is well known that CCP staff have toons within these alliances, and that in the past some of these staff have shown a predisposition to unethical behaviour, it does not engender a feeling of fair and equal treatment when it comes to dealing with such matters as these.
I would not be alone in wondering whether the alliances would continue to get "special treatment" What reassurances can CCP provide that "similar programs" to bacon used by said alliances will also cease to function?
I was going to reply on how badly concealed your anti bob slander train was and stuff. containing lines on how old that argument is, how irrelevant and on how good the brainwashing is on these forums. Then concluding with the fact that goons actually used a similar program to bacon. But in the end I thought well what the hell its useless anyway.
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Lord Fitz
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:53:00 -
[758]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist the only reason they don't declare it an exploit and ban everyone who uses it is because they have no way of telling who uses it and enforcing the rules.
^ That's basically it, when it comes to exploits the CCP fix order is, declare exploit if possible to detect, then fix so it can't happen again (because in the long run this is much better then drowning in a sea of petitions). With this they can't detect it, so there's no point in them declaring an exploit that they can't detect since they could take no action on it anyway. Instead they will just fix it whenever they can get the resources on it.
It's not a 'cheat' it's an exploit, ie an unintended use of part of the game. There are dozens of exploits used every day, that do get fixed and aren't rated serious enough to ban people for (infact may even be un-intended exploits). The only area they get really tough on exploits right away is when it causes loss to another player.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 14:35:00 -
[759]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr Why is this thread still going?
Why has anyone not yet reported the hidden keylogging in the software?
Yeah. Because we're stupid enough to put a keylogger in something we've open sourced.
Go back to your bridge, troll.
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.23 14:46:00 -
[760]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
It's not a 'cheat' it's an exploit, ie an unintended use of part of the game. There are dozens of exploits used every day, that do get fixed and aren't rated serious enough to ban people for (infact may even be un-intended exploits). The only area they get really tough on exploits right away is when it causes loss to another player.
This is the phrasing I've been looking for. CPP does not allow 'cheats' in their game but tolerates 'exploits' it can't fix or which serve some purpose to CPP's 'grand design'. So in the end Bacon falls into the same category as the lofty scam or high sec ganking for profit.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 14:49:00 -
[761]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas
This is the phrasing I've been looking for. CPP does not allow 'cheats' in their game but tolerates 'exploits' it can't fix or which serve some purpose to CPP's 'grand design'. So in the end Bacon falls into the same category as the lofty scam or high sec ganking for profit.
There you go again, reading what you want instead of what's actually there. This does not fall into any of those cathegories as they are both endorsed by CCP. The program is frowned upon. There is a vast difference.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.23 14:58:00 -
[762]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas CPP does not allow 'cheats' in their game but tolerates 'exploits' it can't fix or which serve some purpose to CPP's 'grand design'. So in the end Bacon falls into the same category as the lofty scam or high sec ganking for profit.
High sec ganking is not an exploit.
Learn to play.
Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry ) |
RebelWithACause
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 15:05:00 -
[763]
Originally by: Maliber
Originally by: RebelWithACause
4) BACON does not automate a thing. It presents information already available in a different way (audible vs visible). That's it. Defending CCP by saying that we shouldn't have released it because it uncovered a hole is silly. Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
I must disagree with this statement. It does automate a action: looking at local chat and prosessing the changes in local for you. followed by alerting you when a undesired change occors. Thus requiring LESS mental effort and/or capacity of the user. While the information is present you change it to require less effort.
{snip}
While you are correct on the fact that security trough obscurity never works. And i must say its good that you guys made it public. BUT this doesnt explain why you seem to be in favour of the use of such a "exploit/security hole". Its clear that it gains ppl already in a system a advantage and this is probably why there is a heated debate about it.
Normally I would not respond to this, there are two points I need to address here.
You are defining BACON as an exploit. CCP has not. Therefore, it's not. They don't like it (their words), but they have not defined it as an exploit, hack, or macro. Therefore, it is not. See point #1 in my post concerning this.
My comment above is more encompassing to the fact that ANY information/hole will be taken advantage of. In this case BACON is taking advantage of already-existing information, albeit in an unexpected way, but has not been classified as an exploit. I fully expect that there is OTHER software that is not as transparent as we have been.
You state that it "automate(s) a(n) action" requiring "requiring LESS mental effort". I actually strongly disgaree here. In fact, if you had actually USED the software, you will find that it takes MORE mental work, since now you have to pay attention to both visual clues (ships entering your grid, rats, gate fire, etc) AND aural clues (BACON notification).
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr Why is this thread still going? Why has anyone not yet reported the hidden keylogging in the software?
If you understood the concept of open source software, you would realize how silly this statement is. I hope everyone sees how trollish this statement is. Open source software, by definition, cannot have any 'hidden' features, because it is available for review.
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Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.23 15:07:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Torik Tavitas
This is the phrasing I've been looking for. CPP does not allow 'cheats' in their game but tolerates 'exploits' it can't fix or which serve some purpose to CPP's 'grand design'. So in the end Bacon falls into the same category as the lofty scam or high sec ganking for profit.
There you go again, reading what you want instead of what's actually there. This does not fall into any of those cathegories as they are both endorsed by CCP. The program is frowned upon. There is a vast difference.
So it fits better into the category of insta's, where they don't like it but won't ban it, so they will let people use it until they figure out what they want to do about it.
CCP does not tolerate 'cheats'.
CCP does not tolerate 'exploits'.
CCP does tolerate questionable tactics and tools.
CCP has decided that this is a questionable but allowable tool.
Anyone claiming that it is an exploit or cheat is the one reading what they want to hear. If this were either a cheat or an exploit, discussion of it would not be permitted on the forums.
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.23 15:15:00 -
[765]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Torik Tavitas
This is the phrasing I've been looking for. CPP does not allow 'cheats' in their game but tolerates 'exploits' it can't fix or which serve some purpose to CPP's 'grand design'. So in the end Bacon falls into the same category as the lofty scam or high sec ganking for profit.
There you go again, reading what you want instead of what's actually there. This does not fall into any of those cathegories as they are both endorsed by CCP. The program is frowned upon. There is a vast difference.
You keep using terms like 'frowned' and 'endorsed' which have no real authority in them. I prefer to refer to 'allowed' and 'disallowed' which present a clear line of what CPP lets us do and what they won't let us do.
I am fairly sure that lofty and suicide ganking were never intended mechanics in the game. However, CPP chose to allow them and as such they are not classified as cheats.
I will concede that I should not have used the word 'exploit' since that has a negative connotation. I should have just used 'unintended use of the game'.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 15:54:00 -
[766]
Originally by: Torik Tavitas
You keep using terms like 'frowned' and 'endorsed' which have no real authority in them. I prefer to refer to 'allowed' and 'disallowed' which present a clear line of what CPP lets us do and what they won't let us do.
I am fairly sure that lofty and suicide ganking were never intended mechanics in the game. However, CPP chose to allow them and as such they are not classified as cheats.
I will concede that I should not have used the word 'exploit' since that has a negative connotation. I should have just used 'unintended use of the game'.
You have been told time and again why they can't just say that they "do not allow it". I am really getting tired of repeating myself.
Ki Anna has a better idea. Yes, it's like instas in one aspect. The thing that is not like instas is that it doesn't have widespread use, yet. Another aspect that is not like instas is that there is no possibility for CCP to detect this. If they wanted to ban instas they could have. Instead they introduced warp to zero.
So, it's more like instas, but still not quite. This is a program which should not be used, as per CCP's request. If you respect them and your fellow players, you won't use it.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 15:56:00 -
[767]
Originally by: RebelWithACause You state that it "automate(s) a(n) action" requiring "requiring LESS mental effort". I actually strongly disgaree here. In fact, if you had actually USED the software, you will find that it takes MORE mental work, since now you have to pay attention to both visual clues (ships entering your grid, rats, gate fire, etc) AND aural clues (BACON notification).
This is a pretty interesting statement as it is 1) completely false given known facts about the human senses, and 2) completely illogical as you wouldn't create software that required more work from the user than without the software.
Nice spin, but still fail.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Blood Daemon
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.23 16:19:00 -
[768]
wooohoo, after 27 pages, my eyes are only starting to buldge out with the amount of flames/trolling and general *****festing that's going on... epic thread, ****e program (no one should be able to use anything that gives an upper hand over the general gamer)..
Now time to find my glasses because i'm gunna need em ------------------
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Elise Randolph
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2008.04.23 16:24:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Aurix Lexico hey Elise, what's up?
Haaay Aurix. Sorry it took me 12 pages to respond. How's it goin'?
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Soldur
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2008.04.23 16:32:00 -
[770]
i have a question im a little ***** and dont know how to fight is bacon right for me
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:01:00 -
[771]
Originally by: Zurrar wasnt GFL that cult that was raided in texas (yet again) this past month?
Yes, and we're out of teenage girls. Can we have yours?
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:07:00 -
[772]
Originally by: Soldur i have a question im a little ***** and dont know how to fight is bacon right for me
Nah, keep using the one you already have.
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Torik Tavitas
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:13:00 -
[773]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Torik Tavitas
You keep using terms like 'frowned' and 'endorsed' which have no real authority in them. I prefer to refer to 'allowed' and 'disallowed' which present a clear line of what CPP lets us do and what they won't let us do.
I am fairly sure that lofty and suicide ganking were never intended mechanics in the game. However, CPP chose to allow them and as such they are not classified as cheats.
I will concede that I should not have used the word 'exploit' since that has a negative connotation. I should have just used 'unintended use of the game'.
You have been told time and again why they can't just say that they "do not allow it". I am really getting tired of repeating myself.
Their game, their rules. They 'can' put anything they want in them. In this case they simply do not want to put any such rule in there. Just because tehy can't really enforce a rule does not mean that they can't put it in the rulebook.
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Jeltz
Remember The Titans
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:20:00 -
[774]
OMG! This cant be legal.
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:29:00 -
[775]
Edited by: Trathen on 23/04/2008 17:30:22
Originally by: Torik Tavitas
Their game, their rules. They 'can' put anything they want in them. In this case they simply do not want to put any such rule in there. Just because tehy can't really enforce a rule does not mean that they can't put it in the rulebook.
Its not something they "can't really" enforce. It is 100% undetectable. Not 99.99%, not even 99.9999999%. 100% undetectable. That would be like CCP adding a "rule" that you can't pick your nose while you play.
The good news is they do have the power to disable it. This is at their attention and we can only wait to see what they do about it.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:49:00 -
[776]
How difficult would it be to add a 5 minute delay to the log server? Serious question to those of you who would know.
If its possible, CCP can keep the benefits of the log server and eliminate the vast majority of programs that abuse it.
My apologies to the others who probably suggested the same thing in this thread but I didn't feel like reading all 27 pages.
Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew! |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:51:00 -
[777]
Originally by: RebelWithACause
4) {snip} Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Originally by: Maliber
{snip} While you are correct on the fact that security trough obscurity never works. And i must say its good that you guys made it public. BUT this doesnt explain why you seem to be in favour of the use of such a "exploit/security hole". Its clear that it gains ppl already in a system a advantage and this is probably why there is a heated debate about it.
You are defining BACON as an exploit. CCP has not. Therefore, it's not. They don't like it (their words), but they have not defined it as an exploit, hack, or macro. Therefore, it is not. See point #1 in my post concerning this.
My point was that as you see fit to apply the security through obscurity argument. It seemed logical to me to call it a "exploit/security hole". As you can see its between quotation marks signalling unusual use of the words. I added these because there is no consensus about it being a "exploit/security hole". You can call it unintended use, a bug or well whatever. Its fine if you disagree on this point with me, but then its improper to use the security through obscurity argument.
Originally by: RebelWithACause
You state that it "automate(s) a(n) action" requiring "requiring LESS mental effort". I actually strongly disgaree here. In fact, if you had actually USED the software, you will find that it takes MORE mental work, since now you have to pay attention to both visual clues (ships entering your grid, rats, gate fire, etc) AND aural clues (BACON notification).
Hmmm i'm not sure I understand you correctly here surely you don't mean to say that with BACON you don't need 2 persons but can do both with 1? (1 for scouting and 1 ratting vs 1 ratting and paying attention to bacon)
If you mean that now there is more sensory input due to the added sound instead of just visual information. Then I must disagree as this visual information is in a seperate window and isn't filtered for you.
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Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.23 17:56:00 -
[778]
Originally by: Trent Nichols How difficult would it be to add a 5 minute delay to the log server? Serious question to those of you who would know.
It would be a huge massive problem.
The purpose of the logserver is to collect data for debugging.
This especially applies to cases where Eve might, via driver conflict or other means, cause the entire computer to crash.
If the logserver data is not written to the drive in a timely manner, there is a reasonable possiblity that the needed data will be lost in cases were it is most needed.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 18:19:00 -
[779]
Originally by: Ki Anna
Originally by: Trent Nichols How difficult would it be to add a 5 minute delay to the log server? Serious question to those of you who would know.
It would be a huge massive problem.
So much for an easy solution.
The best I can think of then would be for CCP to make the log server limited access with password distribution partially randomized so most hardware/software configurations are covered.
Something needs to be done at any rate. While Bacon looks ripe for exploiting, (someone mentioned a cloaked alt?) that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the thought of full macro programs using the log server.
Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew! |
Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.04.23 18:32:00 -
[780]
Originally by: Trent Nichols How difficult would it be to add a 5 minute delay to the log server? Serious question to those of you who would know.
If its possible, CCP can keep the benefits of the log server and eliminate the vast majority of programs that abuse it.
My apologies to the others who probably suggested the same thing in this thread but I didn't feel like reading all 27 pages.
what the hell would be the point? it's still generate reports fine and now would be useless for debugging crashes by malicious hacked clients.
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.04.23 18:34:00 -
[781]
Originally by: Trent Nichols
The best I can think of then would be for CCP to make the log server limited access with password distribution partially randomized so most hardware/software configurations are covered.
Something needs to be done at any rate. While Bacon looks ripe for exploiting, (someone mentioned a cloaked alt?) that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the thought of full macro programs using the log server.
private key encryption is hackable because the client source is decompilable. so that fails.
public key encryption is fine until the first bunch of goons hacks simply because it's there. give it a few weeks. so that fails.
you could get rid of logs, but then you don't have a debugging tools for actual hardcore system crashes. still, that's an option... but the medicine might be worse than the disease
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Tek'Matay
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:04:00 -
[782]
Personally, I like the idea behind bacon, as far as the audio warnings supplimenting the visual ones provided by the local window.
Regardless of what local was origionally designed for, it has become an intelligence tool for almost as long as it has been around. At the same time, EVE's interface is a hugely overloaded visual nightmare. I consider the audio warnings, just similar to the audio warnings that someone is locking on to your ship. You still have to go look at your overview and see what, how many, ect.
Heck, I'd like to be able to add optional audio clues to lots of things on the interface. Like onto chat windows I don't normally look at, in addition to blinking for new messages, EW notifications, ect. Yes the new EW notifications are nice, but they're just more visual clues, to contend with. I dunno why the creators of advanced space ships gave up on audio, which is used in every military aircraft as warning indicators in the world today.
As long as local can be used like an early warning radar, then adding audio warnings to go with it seems like a logical progression to me.
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Mezikk
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:15:00 -
[783]
Surely you can all see this app just highlights the problem with local...
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Lin Haraka
Legio Conquistus Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:19:00 -
[784]
Ok after reeading 6 pages of this I just have to say something in my own form (tho its already said but its important for me to emphasize this in order to show how ****ed off I am about all this meat slice nonsense)
On with the show
Ok BACON yes I installed and analyzed it (so i know what im talking about) and yes i uninstalled it because its an exploit a cheat a piece of code with no good intent.
Hokay
Voicecomms can NOOOOT (Borat) be compared to Bacon. Humans are known to error and it takes time and resources to actually monitor gates space or what not.
Bacon on the other hand does this automatically so if its set up nicely it can even pronounce the names of the targets hostiles etc. I havent analyzed the logs that thoroughly but Im interested in what kind of info does the client receive when you jump in to a system apart that you are in what else? Shiptype velocity fitting??! Where does it end? Do you want some stupid program to just spell it out for you? Even call you Sir maybe pump up your ego a bit, hell make it with a hotline voice thatll get things running.
It just doesnt work guys. I wish CCP said NO, detectable or not they better threaten the people and get rid of the whole client side logserv routine.
There is upsides to Bacon yes you get advantage but whats next macro miners developing chat bots according to logs pretending they are AT the keyboard instead of AWAY from it ?!
CCP I recommend buying a truckload of BANana'z and start handing them out. Because this Bacon bussiness wont be good for anybody.
Kisses and hugs to all hardworking oldschool reasonable pilots
Lin Haraka supports you!
EDIT: Ki An 4 El Prezidente
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Commoner
Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.23 19:37:00 -
[785]
Edited by: Commoner on 23/04/2008 19:37:43
Originally by: Maliber
Originally by: RebelWithACause
4) {snip} Security through obscurity never works, and we even specifically ASKED them about it BEFORE we released it. They could have said no then.
Originally by: Maliber
{snip} While you are correct on the fact that security trough obscurity never works. And i must say its good that you guys made it public. BUT this doesnt explain why you seem to be in favour of the use of such a "exploit/security hole". Its clear that it gains ppl already in a system a advantage and this is probably why there is a heated debate about it.
You are defining BACON as an exploit. CCP has not. Therefore, it's not. They don't like it (their words), but they have not defined it as an exploit, hack, or macro. Therefore, it is not. See point #1 in my post concerning this.
My point was that as you see fit to apply the security through obscurity argument. It seemed logical to me to call it a "exploit/security hole". As you can see its between quotation marks signalling unusual use of the words. I added these because there is no consensus about it being a "exploit/security hole". You can call it unintended use, a bug or well whatever. Its fine if you disagree on this point with me, but then its improper to use the security through obscurity argument.
Originally by: RebelWithACause
You state that it "automate(s) a(n) action" requiring "requiring LESS mental effort". I actually strongly disgaree here. In fact, if you had actually USED the software, you will find that it takes MORE mental work, since now you have to pay attention to both visual clues (ships entering your grid, rats, gate fire, etc) AND aural clues (BACON notification).
Hmmm i'm not sure I understand you correctly here surely you don't mean to say that with BACON you don't need 2 persons but can do both with 1? (1 for scouting and 1 ratting vs 1 ratting and paying attention to bacon)
If you mean that now there is more sensory input due to the added sound instead of just visual information. Then I must disagree as this visual information is in a seperate window and isn't filtered for you.
You cannot use BACON as a scout to an adjacent system, BACON does the same as local chat, only by representing that information as audio. Hearing is not "automatic" in any more sense than seeing is. Put on some earplugs, or listen to music and BACON becomes unusable.
Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec). The worst pvp'er in EVE :
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 20:02:00 -
[786]
Originally by: Commoner
You cannot use BACON as a scout to an adjacent system, BACON does the same as local chat, only by representing that information as audio. Hearing is not "automatic" in any more sense than seeing is. Put on some earplugs, or listen to music and BACON becomes unusable.
Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
But looking at local requires some effort. Hearing a sound warning you doesn't. Thus using BACON requires LESS mental effort! It's even advertised as such: "Never Be Surprised Again" Why do you try to convince everyone including me it doesnt make things easier? Or that it doesn't change anything? If it was this useless it would never have been written. Right?
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Enraged Stoat
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Posted - 2008.04.23 20:08:00 -
[787]
Edited by: Enraged Stoat on 23/04/2008 20:10:47
Originally by: Commoner Edited by: Commoner on 23/04/2008 19:37:43 Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
For a single player, yes it's little more than automating looking through local. For multiple players with multiple cloaked alts in multiple systems - and BACON logging to a central log server (easily doable if you can code even though they removed the feature from the compiled release) then you have instant intel on as many systems as you can put alts in. That's more than an automation of looking through local, it provides realtime data on multiple systems. "Oh look, 100 hostiles 10 jumps out... 9 jumps out... 8 jumps out... 7 jumps out... they're definitely heading this way time to tool up... 6 jumps out..." etc. Any hope of suprise destroyed. All seeing all knowing intel without a human having to be 'scouting'.
Makes it somewhat unfair against the player(s) who does not have access to those resources.
Personally I would like to see something that offers bacon-like functionality available in game because it just 'makes sense'....
1. We can build spaceships the size of cities. 2. We can send information across the universe instantly (I can see new contracts for me on the other side of the universe as soon as they appear). 3. We know if someone is hostile/neutral/friendly.
But there's no piece of technology available to monitor an area of space/stargate and report the comings/goings/standings of people traversing it centrally for commanders to have intel over their territory much like BACON provides (in networked mode)? Fail.
If one path in Eve is about building empires (what else are alliances for?) then you need the tools to monitor and protect said empire. That's tools, not people. Border control cannot rely on having a human in every border system, that's ridiculous.
It could be a more advanced form of scouting with appropriate skills and items needed to use. New probe type that monitors a gate or grid and reports on traffic movements. Local could be ditched, but those with the 'need' to protect 'their' space would get intel via probes, so it's incumbent on them to keep them going.
Remove local by all means, but only if there is some way of replacing the invaluable intel it delivers. Makes more sense that only those with an interest in intel would deploy and maintain the equipment needed to gather it. Every nation on Earth already monitors it's borders and controls traffic through them, albeit with varying degrees of efficiency. Having technology to do that in the Eve universe would keep the balance if local gets removed.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.23 20:38:00 -
[788]
BACON lovers, the counter we'll have to use is alts with warp scrams who can hold you just long for our mains to arrive before we get CONCORDed.
Is that what you want to cry about next? Will that be your Next Big Thread?
Stay tuned. |
Commoner
Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.23 21:46:00 -
[789]
Originally by: Enraged Stoat Edited by: Enraged Stoat on 23/04/2008 20:10:47
Originally by: Commoner Edited by: Commoner on 23/04/2008 19:37:43 Finally, im not defending the case of BACON, don't intend on using it, but it hardly automates anything. Rather it stimulates another sense. Besides, you can rat and look at local at the same time without BACON (been doing this my whole EVE-career living in lowsec).
For a single player, yes it's little more than automating looking through local. For multiple players with multiple cloaked alts in multiple systems - and BACON logging to a central log server (easily doable if you can code even though they removed the feature from the compiled release) then you have instant intel on as many systems as you can put alts in. That's more than an automation of looking through local, it provides realtime data on multiple systems. "Oh look, 100 hostiles 10 jumps out... 9 jumps out... 8 jumps out... 7 jumps out... they're definitely heading this way time to tool up... 6 jumps out..." etc. Any hope of suprise destroyed. All seeing all knowing intel without a human having to be 'scouting'.
Makes it somewhat unfair against the player(s) who does not have access to those resources.
Personally I would like to see something that offers bacon-like functionality available in game because it just 'makes sense'....
1. We can build spaceships the size of cities. 2. We can send information across the universe instantly (I can see new contracts for me on the other side of the universe as soon as they appear). 3. We know if someone is hostile/neutral/friendly.
But there's no piece of technology available to monitor an area of space/stargate and report the comings/goings/standings of people traversing it centrally for commanders to have intel over their territory much like BACON provides (in networked mode)? Fail.
If one path in Eve is about building empires (what else are alliances for?) then you need the tools to monitor and protect said empire. That's tools, not people. Border control cannot rely on having a human in every border system, that's ridiculous.
It could be a more advanced form of scouting with appropriate skills and items needed to use. New probe type that monitors a gate or grid and reports on traffic movements. Local could be ditched, but those with the 'need' to protect 'their' space would get intel via probes, so it's incumbent on them to keep them going.
Remove local by all means, but only if there is some way of replacing the invaluable intel it delivers. Makes more sense that only those with an interest in intel would deploy and maintain the equipment needed to gather it. Every nation on Earth already monitors it's borders and controls traffic through them, albeit with varying degrees of efficiency. Having technology to do that in the Eve universe would keep the balance if local gets removed.
Thanks for the reply
Never really thought about the use of mutiple alts and BACON, i guesss it's an old habit because i don't have an alt.
In that specific scenario, yeah you could be right as it's difficult to focus on more than one screen at a time, but rather easy to look in local and listen to beeps of incomming forces from your other clients.
Agree with you on local issues, a vocal "sonarsound" instead of local, would be much more immersive. The worst pvp'er in EVE :
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Lanu
Caldari Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.23 21:49:00 -
[790]
Just tried this out. Its a superb tool really, I just really really hate it being legal. Its insane.
Local is overpowered right now. With this tool you don't even have to watch your screen to know when you should unplug your network cable to save your ship. Really hope CCP changes their opinion about this tool in the future.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 21:59:00 -
[791]
Originally by: Lanu Just tried this out. Its a superb tool really, I just really really hate it being legal. Its insane.
Local is overpowered right now. With this tool you don't even have to watch your screen to know when you should unplug your network cable to save your ship. Really hope CCP changes their opinion about this tool in the future.
If you're waiting for them to ban this tool, don't hold your breath. They can't ban it as they can't detect it. CCP has also requested that people don't use it. Of course, the failures of Eve will anyway, but the main point is that CCP are fixing this problem.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Lin Haraka
Legio Conquistus Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:01:00 -
[792]
Originally by: Lanu Just tried this out. Its a superb tool really, I just really really hate it being legal. Its insane.
Local is overpowered right now. With this tool you don't even have to watch your screen to know when you should unplug your network cable to save your ship. Really hope CCP changes their opinion about this tool in the future.
Excuse me but they must not at all costs. Although its cool uber all that plus a bag of space chips it must not happen. You dont need to watch N(umber of alts) screens to get all the info they already have the central server all they need is a "master console" of some sort and voila. i think every single alliance would chip in for cloaked alts all over their teritory. Its just insance.
And pilots for the love of Quafe Chribba and all thats sacred say NO to Bacon
:::End Transmission:::
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Lanu
Caldari Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:08:00 -
[793]
Edited by: Lanu on 23/04/2008 22:10:37
Originally by: Ki An
If you're waiting for them to ban this tool, don't hold your breath. They can't ban it as they can't detect it. CCP has also requested that people don't use it. Of course, the failures of Eve will anyway, but the main point is that CCP are fixing this problem.
I know chances are big they wont ever 'ban' this. And even if they did it, it would be nearly impossible to enforce it.
As a pirate I just can't stand people from logging when I enter scanner (or worse local). In the future will it be like :
*sirens* *ms sam* there is another player within 50 au please unplug your network cable to save your ship */ms sam* */sirens* ?
The 50 au example is just sarcasm but truth is that its really hard to NOT notice somebody entering local with this tool. And that really helps the npc'ers and it quite a big problem for most pirates. |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:11:00 -
[794]
Originally by: Lanu
I know chances are big they wont ever 'ban' this. And even if they would it would be nearly impossible to enforce it.
As a pirate I just can't stand people from logging when I enter scanner (or worse local). In the future will it be like :
*sirens* *ms sam* there is another player within 50 au please unplug your network cable to save your ship */ms sam* */sirens* ?
The 50 au example is just sarcasm but truth is that its really hard to NOT notice somebody entering local with this tool. And that really helps the npc'ers and it quite a big problem for most pirates.
Gonna quote myself from a thread on another forum:
Originally by: Ki An It's really hard to be a lion hunting anthelope with a huge ******* bell around your neck
Don't worry though. The flak CCP is going to endure if they don't fix this very soon will be enormous.
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Lin Haraka
Legio Conquistus Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:16:00 -
[795]
Originally by: Lanu Edited by: Lanu on 23/04/2008 22:10:37
Originally by: Ki An
If you're waiting for them to ban this tool, don't hold your breath. They can't ban it as they can't detect it. CCP has also requested that people don't use it. Of course, the failures of Eve will anyway, but the main point is that CCP are fixing this problem.
I know chances are big they wont ever 'ban' this. And even if they did it, it would be nearly impossible to enforce it.
As a pirate I just can't stand people from logging when I enter scanner (or worse local). In the future will it be like :
*sirens* *ms sam* there is another player within 50 au please unplug your network cable to save your ship */ms sam* */sirens* ?
The 50 au example is just sarcasm but truth is that its really hard to NOT notice somebody entering local with this tool. And that really helps the npc'ers and it quite a big problem for most pirates.
Works both ways ;) thats the nasty part. Having a program chew and spit out all the needed info != fun |
Imax Vespertilio
Caldari Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2008.04.23 22:18:00 -
[796]
I'm a miner, and I could totally benefit from this 3rd part program, however I too think its to un sportsmanlike. I sympathize with the very people would kill me on this topic. BACON is ********, if everyone used it PVP would have absolutely NO surprise element left. There would be no such thing as an ambush anymore.
BAN BACON! |
Aurix Lexico
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.04.24 00:18:00 -
[797]
Originally by: Elise Randolph
Originally by: Aurix Lexico hey Elise, what's up?
Haaay Aurix. Sorry it took me 12 pages to respond. How's it goin'?
good, good. Doing empire war decs, I imagine you are doing the same? Almost have the skills for my nidhoggur now too. What have you been up to?
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Or'Chan
Minmatar Blue. Blue Federation
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Posted - 2008.04.24 02:57:00 -
[798]
The problem isn't Bacon, the problem is local. Once that gets nerfed, everything will be fine.
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Alty MacAlterson
Alt Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.24 03:03:00 -
[799]
Nerf bacon. Ham needs to win the fight.
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Sol Greensmoker
Seventh Circle
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Posted - 2008.04.24 03:09:00 -
[800]
BACON
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Shin Dahn
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Posted - 2008.04.24 04:24:00 -
[801]
Originally by: Koro Kar'Amarr Remove BACON Remove Local
Constellation is local enough.
Agreed
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PwnzDeLeOwnz
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.24 06:06:00 -
[802]
Must post in epic thread one last time....
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 08:22:00 -
[803]
I think its sad that ppl try to derail this thread just so the topic dies. Its a important topic an should be discussed |
Svekke
Minmatar Frequent Flyers Tartarus Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.24 08:29:00 -
[804]
Can't ccp just disable caching who joins what chanal and just cache it when someone says something? I mean what's the use of caching who joins a chanal anyway? |
Inanna Zuni
Minmatar The Causality Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:14:00 -
[805]
BACON
At heart this breaks the spirit / intent of EVE online as a multi-*player* game; you aren't playing if you aren't watching. BACON does't offer anything to the player who is actively ingame; all the information this available via local and a decent overview setup. One could almost argue that CCP should include something similar as part of the game under disability anti-discrimination requirements for those players who do not have perfect eyesight and need auditory assistance (eg. we can see when our warp drive is active, but we get the voice anyway).
Does it create unbalance between pilots using BACON and those not using it? Yes, if they aren't actively involved in the game, but otherwise not so much. Does BACON benefit the macro farmers and those who set out to abuse EVE? Yes, and if they hadn't written such a program before they sure know about it now and could invent new uses for the idea. At corp and alliance level though, integrating the data from multiple pilots and alts, it clearly advantages the BACON-using side who can create a real-time map of traffic in as many systems as they have alts.
Is it, or should it be, illegal? So far the TOS appears to not be broken but, more to the point, because it accesses local client files, it would be very difficult for CCP or anyone else to prove that there hasbeen unauthorised use of the logfiles. Unless you remove some elements of the logging process, or recode the whole logfile subsystem to encrypt its output, then any external program using that data cannot be stopped. But even that would probably not be sufficient as there are many tech geeks around. Something that made it impossible to run the local logserver without each-time permission from CCP is impracticable and, now the cat is out the bag, one could probably write some Wireshark code to 'watch' the EVE data anyway.
As regards nerfing local, that would just play into the hands of users of BACON and similar programs, giving them a massive advantage over the pilot who actually plays the game in the way that CCP intended. BACON doesn't read 'local', it uses the whole stream of data required by the client, and while there are some arguments to change how local works BACON isn't one of them.
Personally, the level of automation I currently find acceptable ingame is the autopilot. And I don't use that. Tools like BACON, Beetracker, and the rest, using the logfiles for other than their intended purpose are exploits. They can't be stopped by not accepting they exist nor could you say they contravene the TOS without a way to prove that they are actually in use. To stop them requires a change of the logfile format. These tools break the heart of the reason for EVE and produce inequality between pilots and I would support the removal of their ability to continue to work.
IZ
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:44:00 -
[806]
I ****ing swear... are people actually playing this game, or do the just eat dinner and watch tv while logged in?
What happened to the person on the other side of the computer? CCP puts in and clearly agrees that sitting in front of your Eve monitor is not a required task to play Eve. Let the Eve universe behave as it would when you LOG OFF... but these afk tactics without doing a damn things are a huge flaw, and a pathetic design. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:47:00 -
[807]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
110% pure distilled win.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW - EVE FICTION <<<
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:53:00 -
[808]
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense? --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 12:01:00 -
[809]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense?
To make it bannable, it should be detectable. That is the problem atm. But on the bright side they are working on it.
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Inanna Zuni
Minmatar The Causality Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.24 12:12:00 -
[810]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense?
To make something bannable requires being able to (a) find that it is in use, and (b) prove that it was in use. As things stand there is no way whatsoever for the EVE client to see what other programs are running on your computer (and everyone would scream invasion of privacy if it could!) nor see if anything else is accessing a text file on your machine (ditto).
A blocking mechanism is required first, and that has to be part of what CCP controls - the EVE client and the logserver program.
IZ
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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.04.24 13:32:00 -
[811]
Originally by: RebelWithACause What would stop CCP from handing out the decrypt key to 'key alliances' of their choosing? (you can't tell me that others aren't as paranoid as I am).
Such an action would inevitably leak -- "two men can keep a secret, if one of them is dead" -- and the damage to CCP's rep would be enormous. Plus, if they're smart, they'll issue a new public key to each player running the log server during each client session. Some simple access control logging and any leak of a log+private key that decrypts will bust both the player and the CCP employee responsible. Unless you assume that CCP is corrupt from the very top down, this should be sufficient.
Personally, and I speak as a player with limited EVE experience who is just starting to dip my toes into PvP, I think the long-term solution is to make several aspects of the game mechanics more realistic. Right now, both local and scanning are extremely unrealistic.
IMVHO, you shouldn't see anyone on local unless they chat, and after 10 minutes or so of not chatting, they should vanish from local (they shouldn't vanish if they leave the system, that's extra information).
Similarly, if you scan for someone, they ought to know they've been pinged, but not who has pinged them. And they should have some idea based on the strength of the ping how close you are to locking down their position.
Finally, there should be modules that automate information sharing between ships in the same system, with settings that let you control how the information is distributed (up to gang, corp, etc., as well as downwards as well). Perhaps tied in with the system map? Note that one nice thing about such a module is that it could act as an IFF transponder, so that when one of your corpies scans, everyone else with the module knows that they did it, so they don't wet their pants when they receive that ping.
I have a strong feeling that this could be done in such a way that it's neutral for non-AFK players or only slightly nerfing pirates and gankers, but makes AFK farmers much more vulnerable, which would make piracy more socially responsible! It might also make high-sec wars more interesting.
On a personal note, if I was extremely upset about the use of tools like BACON, I would have done exactly as Gunfleet did; be cautious and give CCP every opportunity to say "stop!", then release the tool, sit back, and enjoy the show as the fecal matter hit the rotary impeller.
World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
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Maxpie
Cross Roads Ouroboros Cross Combine
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Posted - 2008.04.24 13:58:00 -
[812]
For better or worse, I think the end result of all this will be that Bacon will cause CCP to remove local or radically change it.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.24 13:59:00 -
[813]
Originally by: Maliber
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
This is your game... how hard is it to change that 'frown' into a statement saying its a bannable offense?
To make it bannable, it should be detectable. That is the problem atm. But on the bright side they are working on it.
They don't have to be able to detect it. As they have stated they are working on a technical solution to prevent BACON, they could simply declare it as an exploit. They obviously don't want it used.
The act of declaration might stop some people using it out of principle. Even though they would not be able to take direct action or detect usage and take punitive action, a clear message would be preferable.
Most exploit rulings are given for things CCP cannot detect automagically. If something was automatically detectable, it would be in the software code, and thus irrelevant to call it an exploit, it would not actually be possible. Like saying it's an exploit to fire all your loaded charges at once. No point, it isn't possible. Exploits are given where it is not possible to completely automate.
Yes I know, that once reported, they can in most cases look back, and check, then take punitive action.
But what is the harm done in simply saying "It is an exploit, no, at this time we cannot punish abusers, but in the next release they won't be able to any more" ?
There is no harm.
They say it for macro usage. And they cannot prove usage. But it is a declared exploit. The message, clear as crystal, should be made. Even if all it is, is a message. Messages are important.
--- "Tsssssssssst." trained to level 5.
95% less desire to reply to posts by 15 year olds per level.
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olzi
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Reavers.
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Posted - 2008.04.24 14:25:00 -
[814]
Won't be long until someone modifies the code so that instead of giving a local sound warning, the info is uploaded to a server. Put some neutral alts to a few bottleneck systems and you have a fully automated system of tracking hostiles through your territory. Might even do it myself, CCP has a long history of not doing anything until a feature is horribly abused.
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 14:27:00 -
[815]
Originally by: olzi Won't be long until someone modifies the code so that instead of giving a local sound warning, the info is uploaded to a server. Put some neutral alts to a few bottleneck systems and you have a fully automated system of tracking hostiles through your territory. Might even do it myself, CCP has a long history of not doing anything until a feature is horribly abused.
Code is already in the source for that just commented out. So it would be easy to adapt.... When you get a good data tracking system you might want to let us know :( Has anyone looked at the logfile parser and ways of fooling it?
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Torrid Crush
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Posted - 2008.04.24 14:34:00 -
[816]
I find it rather funny that you guys are all bent out of shape about this.
I mean with all this technology who in their right mind wouldn't be able to make their ship beep at them if a hostile is detected by the ships computer?
This feature just makes sense.
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 14:50:00 -
[817]
Originally by: Torrid Crush
I mean with all this technology who in their right mind wouldn't be able to make their ship beep at them if a hostile is detected by the ships computer?
This feature just makes sense.
Its kinda besides the point aint it? And its not a feature of eve but a "security hole/bug/exploit/cheat/allowed but not liked 3rd party program"
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Leila Cross
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Posted - 2008.04.24 15:39:00 -
[818]
Edited by: Leila Cross on 24/04/2008 15:43:52 I wanna get the disclaimer out of the way first... I'm not saying I like or dislike BACON. Having said that...
The current state of local and scan is such that CCP has provided two marginal tools that a lot of people use for a lot of different things. It's a communications tool and it's a shortcut that tells you who is in system, how many are there, and what their standing is to you (yes, neutral, or no standing, is a standing especially in 0.0). If you're looking to blow stuff up, local is a huge tool.
Here is where CCP has dropped the ball, and BACON has stepped in:
If you've ever played a flight sim like Falcon 4.0 or Superhornet you know that a basic part of your instrumentation is the threat warning system (TWS). This is something that has been around since the early 1960's. Basically, if someone is scanning you with radar or fire control systems the receiver gives you a visual location as to which direction the threat is coming from, and it gives you an audible warning. The visual and audible clues vary as to type of threat. This is basic flight sim stuff. Most flight sims also have radar screens where friends, foes, and unknowns are visually depicted and designated on screen so you can see who's who in the air around you and react accordingly. Sounds like these would be very powerful tools to keep you alive no matter what, right?
Amazingly air to air combat and kills still happen in flight sims. Why? Because all the bells and whistles in the world won't make up for superior skills and attention to detail. There is always a better pilot out there, and there is always someone out there that either doesn't use his tech well, or doesn't know how.
Many people are worried that the whole balance in EvE has been upset. There is no balance in EvE. If there was balance no one would be able to kill anyone because we would all have equal skills and abilities. EvE is a game about taking advantage of strengths and offsetting weaknesses. BACON is nothing more than a tool that gives someone an audible warning that someone else is in system. Does it give someone an advantage? Sure it does, for a minute or so. Does it give someone the advantage that a well fit nano-rapier has over a T1 miner? Not even close. BACON, at best, gives someone about a minute to react to an audible warning. Local does the same thing. A skilled pod pilot will be in system, scan you down, and have you webbed and scrambled in that time. pop. i can see it now:
CarebearTears > How did you find me? I have BACON. CrazySkills > Man, it's a good thing you had BACON. If you didn't I would have pwned you about 30 seconds faster.
The catch here is that a third party has picked up CCP's shortsightedness. CCP has gone through all the trouble to create this futuristic world with a lot of ultra sophisticated technology but hasn't taken the time to provide simple tools that should already exist in the EvE world.
If CCP wants to level the playing field they need to do a couple of things. Either get rid of local, or set it up so that you don't appear in local unless you use local chat. Give us a 3d scanner that shows you blues, reds, yellows, magentas, pinks, whatever, at set ranges. Give us something that says "hey man, someone is looking for you and they don't want to give you a hug" whenever someone actively uses a scanner or scan probes.
In other words, give EvE the "fog of war" element that almost all other sims and games provide. |
Edgar Loke
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Posted - 2008.04.24 15:57:00 -
[819]
Now at first I thought this was a great idea for a mod, being in a mining corp and all. But now after looking at it a bit more, I feel this becomes a damaging balance breaker to the game.
Look at it this way, in a FPS, if I downloaded a program that made noise when someone got closer to me that would be a hack (probably classified as a wallhack). Sure I could just say that everyone is perfectly allowed to go download it themselves, but then for gameplay to be equal everyone would need the availability to use the tool. Meaning that in order to keep up with the pack, you have to go and download more stuff that isn't in the core game. At the same time, you have tools and scanners that find stuff for you all the same.
Simply put, I will not use this program. I mine, alot, but I disagree with the outside of game fairness that this breaks.
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Lou Cypher
The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.04.24 16:57:00 -
[820]
Can you say "npc server" ?
Two thumbs down
Shrike > Good Morning Northen Monekys, this is God speaking. |
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zoolkhan
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2008.04.24 17:45:00 -
[821]
Edited by: zoolkhan on 24/04/2008 17:47:58 i will certainly not be the first CSM candidate who says what some lobby may want to hear in order to win that lobbies votes :-)
Quote: 2008.04.24 03:33 Hey guys. I'm a writer for the Eve-Tribune and guess a lot of you have noticed a lot of 'comotion' about it (it being BACON), to put it one way. We are looking to see what your opinion on it is.
If you could reply back to this about whether you
a) Support BACON b) Do NOT support BACON c) Undecided
That would be great.
The article is a for/against look at the application and its good points, bad points, advantages but also is a perfect chance for you guys to tell us what you think :)
If you have not stumbled on this yet, the eve forums link is.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=753528&page=1 Thanks for your time, Xeno.
I replied that my opinion is utterly irrelevant, even after a possible election the councils influence on ccp is not needed in this matter - as it states to be already EULA complient and has CCPs support.
Personally i think this is a matter of taste - the defending carebear will appreciate an accoustic warning, the attacker/intruder will be even more annoyed as he now not only faces jammers, bridges but also accoustic sonar technology :)
I think in general it is amazing what kind of effort people invest into writing tools around this game. Many of them are cool. I am not sure if we need this though, but i am sure i would not be able to stop it.
What does the player majority think, that is more important than my personal view.
As CSM i would represent the players, not myself.
best regards zoolkhan
questions and answers reagrding my candidancy: http://forum.mirkur.org/viewtopic.php?t=459
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Mini Mizer
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Posted - 2008.04.24 18:13:00 -
[822]
Concept is cool - nice thought.
Not sure if id ever use it. But to those that do. Safe Flight to you.
Keep it coming |
I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.04.24 18:21:00 -
[823]
Is there any way to change the sounds used? The default ones are pretty anemic. :/ |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 18:24:00 -
[824]
While i dont think Leila's assessment of how BACON would impact a miner/ratter vs. belt crasher scenario (mainly that 15 seconds is the most they'd need to allign for warp to a safe spot or POS let alone a minute) I do agree with her call for a "fog of war" element in the game. |
Cesar Malari
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.24 19:06:00 -
[825]
Originally by: I SoStoned Is there any way to change the sounds used? The default ones are pretty anemic. :/
On the alert configuration tab, you can completely customize the sounds (and/or text-to-speech) used. See the audio configuration page for more details: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/audioconfigure.php. |
Quasi Net
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Posted - 2008.04.24 19:13:00 -
[826]
Real present day warfare is built on notification of possible enemy or hostile targets entering a certain listening posts radius.
P.S. no afiliation with bacon or hydra just an observation of present day technology
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Alxz
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Posted - 2008.04.24 19:17:00 -
[827]
Another option would be an anchorable POS item that is sonar like, to alert POS owners of near bye possibles.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.25 06:32:00 -
[828]
If CCP ends up by banning such a tool as BACON,CCP will need to provide weekly or monthly proof that no other alliance/corp is using a similar tool.Which,based on the latest CCP post, alliances/corps are doing and CCP is aware.However it seems that until BACON was released and began providing to the general public similar features as the private tools,CCP was either lazy or provided special treatment to those using it as private tool. Either way CCP needs to explain,and explain ASAP and with as much detail and tech specs,why they would do nothing against the private tools,which they knew about,but now that BACON provides similar features to the general public,CCP wants to find a way to prevent it EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
eeevans
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 07:29:00 -
[829]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Either way CCP needs to explain,and explain ASAP...
well, since ccp can't prove if someone is playing with the logserver output - don't you think it's more likely that they theoretically knew people could do what bacon does - but never actually heard anyone fess up until the hydra kids blew it for all darkside coders?
or do you just enjoy the sound of your own moronic, reactionary voice?
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Flipout
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.25 07:32:00 -
[830]
What is this 'goonswarm version' of BACON that I saw someone talking about in another thread?
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Puscas Marin
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Posted - 2008.04.25 08:47:00 -
[831]
can u make a full version of this to track corp member activity for a ceo plz so ceo's can see what members do even if not loged in eve (excelent for work)
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Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 09:54:00 -
[832]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix {stuff}
Sir you have been brainwashed by the goon paranoia virus. Its not your fault, it rages rabid on these fora. But please seek help! Maybe the other program was just the goon bee tracker? Its not always as bad as you think... Oh and to reassure you: No none these 3rd party programs have nothing to do with chemtrails. They will not disrupt your free energy device. And no they are certainly not at all part of the bob plot to take over the world...
ohh.. And don't try to derail the thread by implying other alliances where favoured by ccp. That discussion is old, irrelevant and smells of French cheese.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.25 12:59:00 -
[833]
Originally by: Maliber Edited by: Maliber on 25/04/2008 09:57:04
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix {stuff}
Sir you have been brainwashed by the goon paranoia virus. Its not your fault, it rages rabid on these fora. But please seek help! Maybe the other program was just the goon bee tracker? Its not always as bad as you think... Oh and to reassure you: No none these 3rd party programs have nothing to do with chemtrails. They will not disrupt your free energy device. And no they are certainly not at all part of the bob plot to take over the world...
ohh.. And don't try to derail the thread by implying other alliances where favoured by ccp. That discussion is old, irrelevant and smells of French cheese.
Edit: p.s. All references to alliances where for purely for the purpose of illustration and do not imply anything about your or my political opinion.
Maybe,however CCP did recognize they were aware of other such private tools.My problem comes from the fact that until BACON came to existence,CCP seems to have been lazy to look for a solution.However now that BACON is here,they are looking for a solution. Sorry,but that is suspicious to me. As far as CCP favouring alliances/corps, it was not so long ago EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Taurequis
Waylander 01
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Posted - 2008.04.25 13:21:00 -
[834]
Originally by: Shin Dahn
Originally by: Koro Kar'Amarr Remove BACON Remove Local
Constellation is local enough.
Agreed
Too right.
Make the game hard again.
Taur
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.25 13:26:00 -
[835]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Maybe,however CCP did recognize they were aware of other such private tools.My problem comes from the fact that until BACON came to existence,CCP seems to have been lazy to look for a solution.However now that BACON is here,they are looking for a solution. Sorry,but that is suspicious to me. As far as CCP favouring alliances/corps, it was not so long ago
You do realize that when CCP changes the way the logserver works and disables BACON, they will at the same time disable all other programs working off the same principle, right? I don't think anyone's saying that we should JUST get rid of BACON. Of course, all such programs has to go, and all will go when CCP fixes this.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Anaesthera
Gallente Sky Net Industries Pure.
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Posted - 2008.04.25 17:00:00 -
[836]
Does this work on Vista?
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Pecks
Caldari ASSASSIN SYNDICATE Penumbra Unleashed
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Posted - 2008.04.25 17:28:00 -
[837]
How bad is an Alliance who has to cheat to live 00 Space ?
Cheating yes!!! No doubt about it .
Shame on anyone staying Naped with these folks who could care less about the game, and put the burden on you to protect there space !!
I had alot of respect for the alliance's around Vale until now.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 17:34:00 -
[838]
Originally by: Anaesthera Does this work on Vista?
Yes.
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Cesar Malari
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 17:34:00 -
[839]
Originally by: Anaesthera Does this work on Vista?
Yes. I've only run it on Vista x64 (UAC enabled), but I know others have tried it on 32-bit Vista and 32 and 64 bit XP. |
Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.04.25 17:45:00 -
[840]
Edited by: Veng3ance on 25/04/2008 17:49:25
Regardless if this becomes banable or not, this needs to be uncondoned or illegal to use in the game. This is a complete bull**** program and ruins the entire spirit of PVP and well... the entire game experience.
edit: after pages of reading, the GM response is priceless and THANK GOD this will be prevented in the future. However, I hope this does not turn into a long CCP project, this needs to happen swiftly!
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SomeHardLovin
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.25 18:18:00 -
[841]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 25/04/2008 18:20:31 My 2 cents. BACON didn't do anything your eyes couldn't already do with local. Pirates kill lazy people who don't look... and lazy people probably don't install BACON anyhow.
It barely helps really unless I happen to be caught up in something on the TV. Its just nice to know what alliance the red is from etc. without having to click them. Very handy.. but not unbalancing.
CCP will simply encrypt the logs and the program doesn't work anymore. I wouldn't be surprised however if you see something like this eventually available in EvE.. I mean.. what space ship DOESN'T have a proximity warning beep when things enter system in any sci fi show you've ever seen? Watching local feels a lot like a cheap workaround instead of a realistically constructed 'feature'. All that needs to happen is the basics of the BACON features need to be implemented, and pirates need to get a new module that masks their signature in space.. so people can't see them at all.
It should be expensive...and makes sense for Cov Ops as well. I mean seriously... why can I see a cloaked ship in local?? Kind of misses the point. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.04.25 18:32:00 -
[842]
Edited by: Veng3ance on 25/04/2008 18:32:25
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 25/04/2008 18:20:31
It barely helps really unless I happen to be caught up in something on the TV. Its just nice to know what alliance the red is from etc. without having to click them. Very handy.. but not unbalancing.
So you should be able to watch TV and know while not paying ANY attention to the game that a negative has come into local?
Why don't you just can it! You couldn't balance a scale much less a game.
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Miss Xerox
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Posted - 2008.04.25 18:49:00 -
[843]
Something I stumbled across today...
It seems that BACON may conflict with certain applications that access the character information such as Eve-Meep.
With BACON active Eve-Meep could not collect any character profiles. Once I turned it off EM worked fine.
Not sure what the cause is, though. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.25 18:53:00 -
[844]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 25/04/2008 18:20:31 My 2 cents. BACON didn't do anything your eyes couldn't already do with local.
It just does it, without you needing to actually use your eyes. |
Miss Xerox
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Posted - 2008.04.25 18:59:00 -
[845]
Originally by: Cesar Malari
Originally by: I SoStoned Is there any way to change the sounds used? The default ones are pretty anemic. :/
On the alert configuration tab, you can completely customize the sounds (and/or text-to-speech) used. See the audio configuration page for more details: http://bacon.gunfleet.org/audioconfigure.php.
Ahhh, I had a similar problem. Not that I have wars... nuublet that I am. :) But it's nice to know when I'm being a slave scout when I actually find someone for them to shoot at.
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Katrina Velos
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Posted - 2008.04.25 22:46:00 -
[846]
Personally, I see nothing wrong with this application. tbh, I would enjoy having this functionality integrated into the game client. It simply makes sense to have audio clues, as well as visual clues as to what's happening on your screen. And come on people, no one calls teamspeak or ventrillo a hack or a cheat, and it gives you an advantage over other players, by allowing you to communicate faster than typing normally. CCP ended up trying to incorporate that functionality into the client. Why? Because it's a concept that makes sense, and adds to the immersiveness of the game- sort of =P
It's a futuristic space game. It has a lot for the visual side of it, but it's still lacking on some of the audio cues. Yeah, you have the locking sound, but that's about it. CCP wants to make the game as immersive as possible, that's what makes EVE so awesome. I see audio proximity alarms as the next logical step.
I seriously don't see this detracting from any kills for you roaming gangs anyway. Not everyone is going to use bacon, some people are too lazy to download, still others are too lazy to try to configure it properly- I mean seriously, you catch afk ratters, miners, etc. because they're too damn lazy to pay attention to local =P I hardly see BACON giving them anymore advantage.
Anyways, I've lost my train of thought by now.... |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:44:00 -
[847]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Maybe,however CCP did recognize they were aware of other such private tools.My problem comes from the fact that until BACON came to existence,CCP seems to have been lazy to look for a solution.However now that BACON is here,they are looking for a solution. Sorry,but that is suspicious to me. As far as CCP favouring alliances/corps, it was not so long ago
You do realize that when CCP changes the way the logserver works and disables BACON, they will at the same time disable all other programs working off the same principle, right? I don't think anyone's saying that we should JUST get rid of BACON. Of course, all such programs has to go, and all will go when CCP fixes this.
Unless I have been reading the wrong threads,everyone complaining is screaming for BACON to be banned.However no one screams about all those private tools that exists and which existence CCP recognized EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.26 01:45:00 -
[848]
Originally by: Cesar Malari
Originally by: Anaesthera Does this work on Vista?
Yes. I've only run it on Vista x64 (UAC enabled), but I know others have tried it on 32-bit Vista and 32 and 64 bit XP.
your path file is still not working. Any ETA for a fix? EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
oingo
Gallente 23rd Armor Penumbra Unleashed
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Posted - 2008.04.26 15:09:00 -
[849]
First, you need to change the name from BACON to RunandHydra 5.0.
I would hope that this type of behavior is being noticed by your protectors to the north and south of you. All of Eve now knows what everyone that has been in Hydra or fought against you already knew. You suck, you have no business holding space, and now you have to cheat to keep your killboard from going below 40% where they rightfully and obvious belong.
Yes, I am former Hydra. (Empahsis on FORMER) But this alliance took a turn for the worse last summer and just keeps nose diving. What could have been, is now just a complete embarassment for the North!
I hope you are able to beta test your next hack from Jita!!!
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Speaker Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.26 18:34:00 -
[850]
Why is it that the Greifers and Gankers believe that if they post enough, they represent the majority of the players? Most players probably aren't even aware of this program. Like most games 70% of the players rarely ever look at the forums and only when they need a specific bit of information. Most of them just want to play and enjoy the game their way, not your way. All this program does is give an auditory cue, so that people don't have to be glued to local. A great game improvement IMHO. Personally I think I will start advertising it in all the local chats, so that everyone may enjoy the cries of the pirates...:-)
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.26 18:48:00 -
[851]
Originally by: Speaker Dead Why is it that the Greifers and Gankers believe that if they post enough, they represent the majority of the players? Most players probably aren't even aware of this program. Like most games 70% of the players rarely ever look at the forums and only when they need a specific bit of information. Most of them just want to play and enjoy the game their way, not your way. All this program does is give an auditory cue, so that people don't have to be glued to local. A great game improvement IMHO. Personally I think I will start advertising it in all the local chats, so that everyone may enjoy the cries of the pirates...:-)
Wait, you KNOW that this tool is a carebears wet dream, and yet you claim it really doesn't do anything? Wow...
Anyway, CCP can't fix this soon enough.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.26 18:49:00 -
[852]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Unless I have been reading the wrong threads,everyone complaining is screaming for BACON to be banned.However no one screams about all those private tools that exists and which existence CCP recognized
I seem to have a problem getting through to you. I'll lay it out in simpler terms:
When CCP fixes this, then all other such programs will be stopped as well. Noone will have an advantage, because noone will be able to use this kind of program.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Speaker Dead
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Posted - 2008.04.26 19:57:00 -
[853]
Originally by: Ki An
Wait, you KNOW that this tool is a carebears wet dream, and yet you claim it really doesn't do anything? Wow...
Anyway, CCP can't fix this soon enough.
It's not going to get fixed....it's already fixed, and all your ranting and whining will not change things. And I have spammed it thru-out the universe! Now everyone will be using bacon...
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LittleTerror
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.04.27 03:37:00 -
[854]
Originally by: Alxz Another option would be an anchorable POS item that is sonar like, to alert POS owners of near bye possibles.
There is NO OTHER option other than correcting the ******** brains of carebears, ffs I have never been killed when ncping, its not hard to watch local christ... |
Everyone Dies
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.27 14:21:00 -
[855]
BACON is the only the beginning of the carebearization and end of EVE. This program should be banned all users be tracked.
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MineralOel Steuer
Amarr OP EC
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Posted - 2008.04.27 15:28:00 -
[856]
mhmm... BACON |
Rasta Razor
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Posted - 2008.04.27 15:42:00 -
[857]
Originally by: Speaker Dead Why is it that the Greifers and Gankers believe that if they post enough, they represent the majority of the players? Most players probably aren't even aware of this program. Like most games 70% of the players rarely ever look at the forums and only when they need a specific bit of information. Most of them just want to play and enjoy the game their way, not your way. All this program does is give an auditory cue, so that people don't have to be glued to local. A great game improvement IMHO. Personally I think I will start advertising it in all the local chats, so that everyone may enjoy the cries of the pirates...:-)
This man speaks the truth.
When CCP adds this functionality natively I will chuckle softly.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.27 17:41:00 -
[858]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Unless I have been reading the wrong threads,everyone complaining is screaming for BACON to be banned.However no one screams about all those private tools that exists and which existence CCP recognized
I seem to have a problem getting through to you. I'll lay it out in simpler terms:
When CCP fixes this, then all other such programs will be stopped as well. Noone will have an advantage, because noone will be able to use this kind of program.
I got that part.What i am saying is two things:
1.CCP needs to provide proof that no one will ever get special access 2.if you are going to be screaming about BACON to be banned,when BACON as of now is legal,I want to see screaming and yelling about those private tools to be banned and their users banned too.
See my point?You can't scream for BACON to be banned and then say nothing about those private tools,which existence CCP recognized.And when I say "scream about those private tools",I mean screaming with the same intensity and persistence you and others have used to ask for BACON's ban |
Aclyn Seriy
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.04.27 18:55:00 -
[859]
Originally by: Maliber
Originally by: Aclyn Seriy I would just like clarification from a Dev or GM regarding the use of of "similar programs" by some of the larger alliances.
Since it is well known that CCP staff have toons within these alliances, and that in the past some of these staff have shown a predisposition to unethical behaviour, it does not engender a feeling of fair and equal treatment when it comes to dealing with such matters as these.
I would not be alone in wondering whether the alliances would continue to get "special treatment" What reassurances can CCP provide that "similar programs" to bacon used by said alliances will also cease to function?
I was going to reply on how badly concealed your anti bob slander train was and stuff. containing lines on how old that argument is, how irrelevant and on how good the brainwashing is on these forums. Then concluding with the fact that goons actually used a similar program to bacon. But in the end I thought well what the hell its useless anyway.
Hmmm, Im sorry to dissapoint you sir, but I am not anti-BoB, nor anti any of the other alliances. In fact I have old comrades in BoB whom I would happily re-join if the offer were made. My original question still stands however, so if you have anything constructive to say, please do so.
Originally by: techzer0 I'm the failboat captain
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.04.27 20:53:00 -
[860]
Another BACON-SCOUTNET user tonight fell foul of the neutral-alt that BACON cannot detect, while CONCORD finished off the suicide tackler, the poor bastard had to sit listening to his BACON sizzle.
He ejected. The Hulk is on the market.
Solo piracy requires two accounts (QED).
--- "Tsssssssssst." trained to level 5.
95% less desire to reply to posts by 15 year olds per level.
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SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus
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Posted - 2008.04.28 09:19:00 -
[861]
Whether Bacon is a violation of the EULA or a bad addition to gameplay is nothing I care about. I just want to give you the thumbs up for releasing the sourcecode under GPL . ---------- My words represent my opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of my corporation or alliance. |
Maliber
TALON'S GRIP Green Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 11:17:00 -
[862]
Originally by: Aclyn Seriy
Hmmm, Im sorry to dissapoint you sir, but I am not anti-BoB, nor anti any of the other alliances. In fact I have old comrades in BoB whom I would happily re-join if the offer were made. My original question still stands however, so if you have anything constructive to say, please do so.
They couldn't provide any proof as they probably lack the source code of these programs. Or at least it will be hard to proof that its impossible to use logs to try something similar like this. But its probably reasonable to expect that similar programs will cease to function if bacon does by altering the log format and/or local mentioning in the logs.
Its also reasonable to expect that ccp will not start a "arms race" and opt for a small solution which can be countered. As they stated before bacon, they want to change local anyway. I hope they will, and by doing this they will make all programs using the log server obsolete.
One should keep in mind that the rumoured special treatment is usually part of propaganda for a raging war. And that ccp has limited resources so they can not tackle every problem at once. A limited amount of ppl using a tool is unfair but probably acceptable if once is designing changes for it already. They do not have to alert the public as its there game. And if they would it would create unrest and it could be seen as "special treatment" to the other party so there is no gain for ccp in doing so.
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Colonel Rykef
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.04.28 11:27:00 -
[863]
does making a game easier make it better or worse?
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Ja'kar
MAFIA
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Posted - 2008.04.28 11:28:00 -
[864]
yet another blow to eve!
MAFIA Website
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.28 11:58:00 -
[865]
Originally by: Speaker Dead
It's not going to get fixed....it's already fixed, and all your ranting and whining will not change things. And I have spammed it thru-out the universe! Now everyone will be using bacon...
Self-pwnage? CCP has already stated that this will get fixed, and in the mean time asked people not to use it. Guess that makes you a bad player.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.28 11:59:00 -
[866]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
1.CCP needs to provide proof that no one will ever get special access
How should they prove that? If their saying so isn't enough for you, what would be enough?
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
2.if you are going to be screaming about BACON to be banned,when BACON as of now is legal,I want to see screaming and yelling about those private tools to be banned and their users banned too.
Ok, here's me screaming and yelling about those 'other' private tools. Ban 'em all. Ok?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:01:00 -
[867]
Originally by: Colonel Rykef does making a game easier make it better or worse?
In most cases, worse. This is one of them. ____________
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Colonel Rykef
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:10:00 -
[868]
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
Originally by: Colonel Rykef does making a game easier make it better or worse?
In most cases, worse. This is one of them.
was a philosophical question, its down to personal preference I just wanted people who are using bacon to think about it
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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:17:00 -
[869]
This thing must be the stupiest thing EVER in EVE's history.
And the worst thing is that it's coming from HYDRA alliance, jeez.
If your so lazy that you can't manually check local when your npc'ing or whatever, then this game probably is not for you.
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Niobius Julius
Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:37:00 -
[870]
what a f***in idiot released this?
whats next?? eve-nannie? |
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djenghis jan
Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:45:00 -
[871]
I think Bacon is lame,
It reflects on the debate on cloaked ships earlier. I think that local should be removed or at least limited to people who drop a line in local chat window. It raises the stakes somewhat but intensifies the cat and mouse play that makes eve cool.
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northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:01:00 -
[872]
wow all doomed! |
Gus H
Gallente Invictus Omega Invictus Imperium
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Posted - 2008.04.28 15:59:00 -
[873]
Edited by: Gus H on 28/04/2008 16:03:00 I must say that while Local exists and shows everyone in the system then I dont see the gripe with BACON.
However, remove local as is suggested and then BACON and all such programmes need to be disabled.
Being a relative noob with no combat skill to talk about, not being able to see how many people are in local would deter me from flying to low sec.
On an aside...
So, in character, we can fly around the universe skipping from system to system in space ships but our space ships are not able to make sounds when they detect something on radar?
reminds me of Blakes 7 or 1999 more than what I understand EVE to be tbh
Edit: Here's a thought.. why not just disable local for 0.0? It's feasable that CONCORD could transmit data of all ships that pass into a system and then remove that transmision as they leave the system.
0.0 could be the exception... Just a thought.. Regards, Gus H
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:17:00 -
[874]
Edited by: Ikki Phoenix on 28/04/2008 17:17:50
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
1.CCP needs to provide proof that no one will ever get special access
How should they prove that? If their saying so isn't enough for you, what would be enough?
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
2.if you are going to be screaming about BACON to be banned,when BACON as of now is legal,I want to see screaming and yelling about those private tools to be banned and their users banned too.
Ok, here's me screaming and yelling about those 'other' private tools. Ban 'em all. Ok?
That is up to CCP to find a way to satisfy the need of proof
and now, one post of " screaming" is not enough if you are to be fair. What you and the others "screaming" about Bacon being banned should do, is open a new thread requesting the ban of any other similar private tools and use the same energy you have been used to request for Bacon, a legal tool, to be banned
In the meantime, Caesar,could you please fix that file path thing? EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Lona Lwyd
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:18:00 -
[875]
Edited by: Lona Lwyd on 28/04/2008 17:18:20 Would there be a way to make Bacon work with pr 0n? If some one pops into local, I would like to see a naked body with their avatar on, call it free pr 0n, if you will, would be a good idea though IMO.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:29:00 -
[876]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
That is up to CCP to find a way to satisfy the need of proof
and now, one post of " screaming" is not enough if you are to be fair. What you and the others "screaming" about Bacon being banned should do, is open a new thread requesting the ban of any other similar private tools and use the same energy you have been used to request for Bacon, a legal tool, to be banned
In the meantime, Caesar,could you please fix that file path thing?
Seriously, Ikki, this just reaks of you wanting CCP to just cave in and implement this into the game. There is no way for them to provide evidence to people like you, as you obvioulsy already think there's a huge conspiracy going on. Conspiracy nuts are impossible to please.
As for me opening a new threads about all the 'other' BACON like programs, I think you really need to start reading the thread you are posting in. Virtually every single one of BACONS opponents have said or implied that BACON and every program like it needs to go. This is not a question of denying you the advantages of this tool because we don't like to share. This is about this program being completely outrageously bad for Eve, and that the possible future versions of it will spell the doom of the game. Anyone saying anything else is either a conspiracy nut or setting up a huge straw man for selfish reasons.
Now, please, Ikki. Realise that CCP doesn't want you to use this program. Be a good sport and don't. Otherwise you are branding yourself as a cheater and an exploiter in the eyes of the community. This goes for every proponent of this program. Don't use it. Respect CCP and the community enough not to use cheats like this.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Caecilius Seneca
In terrorem Penumbra Unleashed
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:57:00 -
[877]
tisk tisk Hydra tisk tisk |
Jimmy Ray
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Posted - 2008.04.28 21:33:00 -
[878]
Ki An-
I dare say if CCP dissaproved of this app, we wouldn't be discussing this anymore as they would have explicitly said 'Thou Shalt Not'. No Guts, No Galaxy!
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Kvirie
Caldari Children of the Wind
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Posted - 2008.04.28 21:35:00 -
[879]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix And,your point? Last I checked BACON doesn't modify skills nor fit your ship for you.All it does is provide a warning system equal to the military radar and warning systems
Since you missed my point:
EFT and EVEMon don't automate the game play for you in any way. BACON does in that it watches local for you. EFT would have to ft your ship, and EVEmon would have to swap your skills for them to be in the same group as BACON.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.28 22:42:00 -
[880]
I would just like to take a moment to thank Gunfleet Logistics and Hydra Alliance for creating and publicizing the fantastic BACON program. I have been using it for a day or so, and it has already saved my ship and pod.
After setting up BACON and insuring it worked properly (with my own custom Cylon "Warning!" sound from the classic BSG) I set to ratting in one of my Alliance 0.0 home systems. I had JUST started ratting when the warning alert sounded out. I was in the midst of preparing to deploy drones, and even though I had local open and on top I would have missed local at that moment as my eyes were elsewhere in the UI.
Needless to say I didn't bother deploying drones. I warped back to my corp's POS in that system as fast as I could. Which wasn't very fast given that I was using a Domi with no istabs. Not 10 seconds after I landed in the POS who should show up but a red in a Vaga looking for easy kills. Unfortunately, he warped off before the deathstar POS I was in had a chance to lock and pop him. He left the system only a few seconds later.
Had I not had BACON I would have not had enough time to recall my drones and get to the POS. That few seconds discrepancy between the "instant warning of BACON" and "launching the drones, assigning them to a target and then recalling them after noticing local" was the difference between life and death for me that day. This shows the necessity of a BACON-like function in EVE. Why? Because it is just NOT POSSIBLE to keep your eyes on local all the time AND actually PLAY EVE.
THANK YOU BACON! You sure saved mine!
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White Ronin
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Posted - 2008.04.28 23:33:00 -
[881]
A lot of people say that this program destroys the spirit of the game. A lot of things allowed in game from suicide ganking to alts destroy the spirit of the game. Please define the "spirit of the game" cause that is really a weak generalization based on your point of view about eve. Not fact.
I listened to the podcast of dronebay and one of the speakers on the show used the reason that "you are breaking my gameplay". And yet how many people have had their "gameplay" broken by other peoples actions ingame? That is a selfish and weak reason to be able to decide how everyone else plays this game.
Remove local and all this will go away. Until then you are kinda stuck. And considering many corps have used this type of program before and NOW is the time when people have problems when the general population has access to the tools the elite are using. Games are played on level playing fields. The playing field is now a bit more level for everyone else.
Thanks. You can go back to name calling and spitting.
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Lesster
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Posted - 2008.04.28 23:45:00 -
[882]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Had I not had BACON I would have not had enough time to recall my drones and get to the POS. That few seconds discrepancy between the "instant warning of BACON" and "launching the drones, assigning them to a target and then recalling them after noticing local" was the difference between life and death for me that day. This shows the necessity of a BACON-like function in EVE. Why? Because it is just NOT POSSIBLE to keep your eyes on local all the time AND actually PLAY EVE.
THANK YOU BACON! You sure saved mine!
This in all honesty says it all. I got into eve to play a graphical space game not to play a text based game with cool back grounds that I just might be able to look at after I peel my eyes away from local. There is no point in staring at local every second. What fun is it. After all this is a game. We are here to have fun. Bacon enhances that fun.
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Ga'len
Wandering Druid of Tranquility
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Posted - 2008.04.29 02:15:00 -
[883]
So, tell me, with this program, what is the point of playing this game? Why don't we just let macro programs take over game play completely?
Yeah, this just is not part of the game play that I signed up for,
Before you say it, no, you can't have my stuff. BACON will be made to not work with the EVE client. I can't see CCP allowing this kind of garbage.
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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 03:54:00 -
[884]
To those who are defending this piece of **** program.
1. Can you give me an exact reason why this program is good for EVE, and can you also tell me what good things this program brings to EVE? And also give me a reason why that good thing again is good for EVE.
2. Can you give me an extremely good point on why question 1 was very good for you?
3. If your that scared to lose a ship and then use this useless program, then this game is not for you. Maybe WoW is for you, no risk of dying there, just go back to you corpse and continue.
And yes, this program is something that is one of the things that are slowly but surely killing EVE.
THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TO KILL EVE.
But meh, this will be fixed pretty soon anyways. What should you do without it?, i can come and hold your hand and protect you for a price if you want.
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Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.29 04:01:00 -
[885]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
That is up to CCP to find a way to satisfy the need of proof
and now, one post of " screaming" is not enough if you are to be fair. What you and the others "screaming" about Bacon being banned should do, is open a new thread requesting the ban of any other similar private tools and use the same energy you have been used to request for Bacon, a legal tool, to be banned
In the meantime, Caesar,could you please fix that file path thing?
Seriously, Ikki, this just reaks of you wanting CCP to just cave in and implement this into the game. There is no way for them to provide evidence to people like you, as you obvioulsy already think there's a huge conspiracy going on. Conspiracy nuts are impossible to please.
As for me opening a new threads about all the 'other' BACON like programs, I think you really need to start reading the thread you are posting in. Virtually every single one of BACONS opponents have said or implied that BACON and every program like it needs to go. This is not a question of denying you the advantages of this tool because we don't like to share. This is about this program being completely outrageously bad for Eve, and that the possible future versions of it will spell the doom of the game. Anyone saying anything else is either a conspiracy nut or setting up a huge straw man for selfish reasons.
Now, please, Ikki. Realise that CCP doesn't want you to use this program. Be a good sport and don't. Otherwise you are branding yourself as a cheater and an exploiter in the eyes of the community. This goes for every proponent of this program. Don't use it. Respect CCP and the community enough not to use cheats like this.
Sorry,but as far as I am concerned, the tool is legal. Bacon will be illegal the day CCP will come out and say so. Then and only then,the use of such a tool could be called cheating. Until then, the tool is legal.And like I have said before.If people don't want to use it, that is their right EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 04:03:00 -
[886]
Originally by: White Ronin A lot of people say that this program destroys the spirit of the game. A lot of things allowed in game from suicide ganking to alts destroy the spirit of the game. Please define the "spirit of the game" cause that is really a weak generalization based on your point of view about eve. Not fact.
I listened to the podcast of dronebay and one of the speakers on the show used the reason that "you are breaking my gameplay". And yet how many people have had their "gameplay" broken by other peoples actions ingame? That is a selfish and weak reason to be able to decide how everyone else plays this game.
Remove local and all this will go away. Until then you are kinda stuck. And considering many corps have used this type of program before and NOW is the time when people have problems when the general population has access to the tools the elite are using. Games are played on level playing fields. The playing field is now a bit more level for everyone else.
Thanks. You can go back to name calling and spitting.
Amen to that. You hit right on target EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Ikki Phoenix
Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 04:05:00 -
[887]
Originally by: NightmareX To those who are defending this piece of **** program.
1. Can you give me an exact reason why this program is good for EVE, and can you also tell me what good things this program brings to EVE? And also give me a reason why that good thing again is good for EVE.
2. Can you give me an extremely good point on why question 1 was very good for you?
3. If your that scared to lose a ship and then use this useless program, then this game is not for you. Maybe WoW is for you, no risk of dying there, just go back to you corpse and continue.
And yes, this program is something that is one of the things that are slowly but surely killing EVE.
THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TO KILL EVE.
But meh, this will be fixed pretty soon anyways. What should you do without it?, i can come and hold your hand and protect you for a price if you want.
Personally I consider the Bacon as the Eve version of a military radar/warning system.In addition,I stronly believe that Bacon will create new tactical opportunities,especially in PVP zones EveMag:Download Location 2 EveMag:Download Location 3 |
Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 04:05:00 -
[888]
back in my day we had to cloak alts on the gates and turn the volume up to afk game also bacon is nothing compared to the ratting bot that auto logs on local jump.
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Davlos
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 04:23:00 -
[889]
This public outcry over this pretty handy widget reminds me of apemen who've been cooking over open fire for ages. Someone invents and introduces the gas stove, pots and pans, and the apemen shun the enterprising chap because it makes things 'too easy'.
There's nothing ever wrong with entrepreneurs who strive to make life easier for everyone. It's hardly even a 'haxploit' like some people are claiming it to be. All it's doing is to provide audio data instead of visual.
Keep it up, Cesar Malari. Apemen (or women? for Siigari's case) are mere regressionistas who're afraid of having their positions swiped out from under their feet. Examples: Elderly, incontinent members of the Politburo that still have delusions of being attractive to 15 year-olds and need diapers for their toileting. ---
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 04:34:00 -
[890]
Originally by: Davlos This public outcry over this pretty handy widget reminds me of apemen who've been cooking over open fire for ages. Someone invents and introduces the gas stove, pots and pans, and the apemen shun the enterprising chap because it makes things 'too easy'.
There's nothing ever wrong with entrepreneurs who strive to make life easier for everyone. It's hardly even a 'haxploit' like some people are claiming it to be. All it's doing is to provide audio data instead of visual.
Keep it up, Cesar Malari. Apemen (or women? for Siigari's case) are mere regressionistas who're afraid of having their positions swiped out from under their feet. Examples: Elderly, incontinent members of the Politburo that still have delusions of being attractive to 15 year-olds and need diapers for their toileting.
Look at your corp and alliance affiliations you would support this
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Davlos
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.29 07:34:00 -
[891]
Should I be having my care glasses on for a one-man corp mooncalf with a string of closed (read: failed) corps in his employment history?
Sorry mate, not today. One-man shows are better off in Maple Story. ---
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.04.29 08:24:00 -
[892]
Originally by: Davlos This public outcry over this pretty handy widget reminds me of apemen who've been cooking over open fire for ages. Someone invents and introduces the gas stove, pots and pans, and the apemen shun the enterprising chap because it makes things 'too easy'.
There's nothing ever wrong with entrepreneurs who strive to make life easier for everyone. It's hardly even a 'haxploit' like some people are claiming it to be. All it's doing is to provide audio data instead of visual.
Davlos, people do not play this game 'to make life easy for themselves'. Most people play this game for the challenge it offers. That is why people react strongly, they fear it will take away from their challenge.
You sound like everyone should use cheats on their computer games giving infinite lives/gold/whatever to make the game easier to play, and should thank the cheat makers because 'they are making life easier for us'. No thank you. I'll rather play on the hardest level I can manage. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
djenghis jan
Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard
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Posted - 2008.04.29 08:40:00 -
[893]
This program can be used with an alt in a different system to give automated warnings on team speak. So in essence the scout on the gate is automated. It follows that this is nothing more than a macro. Since we all hate macro's it follows that we all hate Bacon.
An exercise in practical logic or so it seems
dj
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Davlos
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.29 08:42:00 -
[894]
This is Eve. There're no 'fair fights', no pre-arranged instanced PvP battleground with equal number of players on each side to duke it out for no loss whatsoever, no apologies for any and every advantage possessed for winning. No "I say, good chap. You seem to have put me into hull. Care for me to do the same to you, and then execute a good ol'-fashioned ten-step-pistol duel?"
This isn't an application that is going to put 1 million ISK per jump-in into your wallet. I don't see the logic in lampooning this entrepreneur who wrote a widget that is not much different from having power steering in an automobile. It's the user's choice as to whether he wants that feature in his automobile, or not. But it's going to be a muppet who loudly declares against it because 'real men don't use power steering'. Get a grip. ---
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
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Hyperforce99
Gallente Infinite Covenant Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 09:15:00 -
[895]
this program and they way to works (especially because its open source) allows players to not to pay attention to the game. when someone enters system they easily log off, or warp to a pos, or in best case scenario... respond to the threat.
However, this means that any roaming gangs in 0.0 will be unable to catch targets. It makes ISK farmers able to automaticly log off or cloak when they sound plays. It allows scouts in multiple systems to play sounds on teamspeak (HOSTILE HAS ENTERED *system name*) and to do this without anyone even paying attention to the scout clients, they can just be online and you have instant Intel.
Also the note of the OP that the program was approved by CCP is a fabrication. It is not condoned, it only does not violate the UELA... yet. Devs have stated they are working to make it impossible for this tool to work, EVEN in this single thread.
The only good thing I can see this tool might bring to the game, is that it might incite CCP to put some speed behind the Change of local to a less intel like tool. And that in game mechanics might replace local. Special POS scanning installations or (as has allready been stated could be comming) an improved scanning system (advanced probeing).
BACON however breaks the eve gameplay by allowing players to not actively play the game while they're client is doing risky things, and simply log of when a sound rings. (or even go so far as to let a macro log them off).
My post here is probably going to be slammed, bashed flamed and all the other bad stuff. But I don't care! --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/ |
Ulitio
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Posted - 2008.04.29 09:15:00 -
[896]
Originally by: Davlos This is Eve. There're no 'fair fights', no pre-arranged instanced PvP battleground with equal number of players on each side to duke it out for no loss whatsoever, no apologies for any and every advantage possessed for winning. No "I say, good chap. You seem to have put me into hull. Care for me to do the same to you, and then execute a good ol'-fashioned ten-step-pistol duel?"
This isn't an application that is going to put 1 million ISK per jump-in into your wallet. I don't see the logic in lampooning this entrepreneur who wrote a widget that is not much different from having power steering in an automobile. It's the user's choice as to whether he wants that feature in his automobile, or not. But it's going to be a muppet who loudly declares against it because 'real men don't use power steering'. Get a grip.
A-men brother.
I have to say, this app impresses me(providing it works as advertised of course)
It is the sort of thing that to me is similar to warp to zero. It gives you something that should be there and that should make your life easier, and at the same time, won't really hurt even the ones gunning after you, once they adjust providing they're good.
Its the type of app that means I may keep playing EvE.
Good job
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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 10:16:00 -
[897]
Edited by: NightmareX on 29/04/2008 10:23:42
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: NightmareX To those who are defending this piece of **** program.
1. Can you give me an exact reason why this program is good for EVE, and can you also tell me what good things this program brings to EVE? And also give me a reason why that good thing again is good for EVE.
2. Can you give me an extremely good point on why question 1 was very good for you?
3. If your that scared to lose a ship and then use this useless program, then this game is not for you. Maybe WoW is for you, no risk of dying there, just go back to you corpse and continue.
And yes, this program is something that is one of the things that are slowly but surely killing EVE.
THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TO KILL EVE.
But meh, this will be fixed pretty soon anyways. What should you do without it?, i can come and hold your hand and protect you for a price if you want.
Personally I consider the Bacon as the Eve version of a military radar/warning system.In addition,I stronly believe that Bacon will create new tactical opportunities,especially in PVP zones
If you are that crap to PVP that you need that, then you suck terribly tbh. No the BEACON wont have any effect on the PVP itself WHEN you attack, but what about roaming gangs?. They will never find any targets if many are using this app.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.04.29 10:38:00 -
[898]
I'd like to point out to any of the devs reading this thread, it was Oveur's position during the 5th alliance tourney, IIRC, that "local should not be used as an intel tool".
But at the moment, it is. People using BACON to allow some other program to be vigilant for them, macroers in 0.0 logging off the moment people enter the system, alt scouts stationed cloaked in strategic systems that allow intel to be relayed easily.
Guys and girls, it needs to go. Let the neglected constellation chat replace it, where you don't show up unless you speak, and reward human players for being able to scout well. It is also an incentive that allows you to take heavier ships, as you have to rely on speed to survive in 0.0 atm - however, give the option for real surprise to occur, and raids with heavier ships will become more viable.
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk i'm not a very good gambler
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:55:00 -
[899]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Sorry,but as far as I am concerned, the tool is legal. Bacon will be illegal the day CCP will come out and say so. Then and only then,the use of such a tool could be called cheating. Until then, the tool is legal.And like I have said before.If people don't want to use it, that is their right
Which is why I said "in the eyes of the community". You are as much of a cheater as a logger. I really hope BRUCE is happy about the public stance you have taken on this issue. Now it is widely known that BRUCE supports macros and loggers. GG Ikki.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:36:00 -
[900]
has this software died yet? cause it should and should never be allowed
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Kong iverz
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:46:00 -
[901]
Edited by: Kong iverz on 29/04/2008 14:47:14 cheers for bacon!
many alliances have had similar progs for some time now but its been pretty much hush hush about it. don't see why its all the fuzz now with bacon...
there will still be thousands of pilots out there that doesn't have it or didn't have the knowledge to install it. (yes i know its easy)
Originally by: Matrixcvd has this software died yet? cause it should and should never be allowed
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:47:00 -
[902]
Originally by: Matrixcvd has this software died yet? cause it should and should never be allowed
Nope. BACON lives gloriously on, saving lives from nano gankers and improving fleet SA all over EVE. With any luck features similar to BACON will be integrated into the EvE interface shortly.
All praise to Gunfleet Logistics (with testing assistance from Hydra Alliance) for creating and releasing the fantastic BACON program. We wait with bated breath upon their next software release.
"Gunfleet Logistics; Making Eve as it should have been from day one."
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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:15:00 -
[903]
I'am very amazed on how many extremely stupid peoples there is in this channel, you absolutely don't know what you are talking about and what this program is actually doing with EVE.
You carebears don't see it, because all you are thinking is OMGOMG WAAAAAAAH I CAN'T DIE, IT'S TO HARD TO LOSE A SHIP, CRYYYYYYYYY.
Think for a minute on what this program is doing, think about it. I know you are to afraid to lose some pixels, but use another tool ingame that you can use to avoid beeing killed. It's tons of ways to avoid it.
But your just to damn lazy to use it, you need to have a program that does it for you automaticly, how sad is that.
You guys fails terribly in EVE, you nothing more than zero, also junk, trash, piece of **** to say it that way.
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Leila Cross
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:20:00 -
[904]
Originally by: NightmareX To those who are defending this piece of **** program.
1. Can you give me an exact reason why this program is good for EVE, and can you also tell me what good things this program brings to EVE? And also give me a reason why that good thing again is good for EVE.
2. Can you give me an extremely good point on why question 1 was very good for you?
3. If your that scared to lose a ship and then use this useless program, then this game is not for you. Maybe WoW is for you, no risk of dying there, just go back to you corpse and continue.
And yes, this program is something that is one of the things that are slowly but surely killing EVE.
THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TO KILL EVE.
But meh, this will be fixed pretty soon anyways. What should you do without it?, i can come and hold your hand and protect you for a price if you want.
Before I offer some answers to your questions allow me clarify that I am an industrial toon and I, like many players of EvE, have another character that is strictly PvP. When i say local can be used in acertain way it is from the point of view from both sides of the fence: predator and prey.
Local is a conversation tool that people have learned to use as a detection system. For the most part, there are 2 kinds of users of local: people who use it to chat, and people who use it to look for other people. For better or for worse that is what local is used for. If you're a carebear in hostile territory you're doing about 3 things in addition to looking at local. You're looking at local as much as possible so you can see that neutral or hostile player pop up in system and know it is time to do some evasive action. Since local was never intended to be used this way it is not the best way to look out for danger. If you're a merc, or a pirate, or just some shmoe who is involved in a war dec you're gonna pop in system fast and start doing all of the things that pvp'ers learn to do to find someone and quickly drop on them to end their little session in space. You are counting on them to not be looking at local when you jump in, or you're counting on them to not see you in local fast enough to get "safe". In other words, you are taking advantage of seriously inadequate game mechanic (local) to destroy someone else's ship.
I have no problem with that.
Where I do see a problem is that many of the people who are opposed to BACON (forget the other applications) are opposed to BACON because they feel that makes it more difficult for them to kill someone else. All BACON does is make a noise when certain standings enter a system thus buying you a couple of seconds to think about what you need to do and do it quick. BACON doesn't mine for you, BACON doesn't warp you to a safespot, and BACON can make all the noise in the world and still not save you if you are not actively at the keyboard ready to recover drones, recover ore, and then spam warp. If you aren't at the keyboard ready to do these things because you think BACON is the cure-all for flashies and other things that go "Yarr" in the night, you're in for a rude awakening. You're gonna die. Someone already proved this with a neutral alt.
Answer #1. BACON is good for EvE because it has stirred up enough controversy to force the developers to take a long hard look at local and the way it is used. For better or for worse BACON has pretty much revealed that a large number of people who don't pvp want to have a better detection / warning tool specifically designed to let them know what is going on around them without having to scroll up and down a chatlist while doing 3 other things. BACON is forcing CCP to consider a new way to make EvE a bit more challenging for everyone. |
Leila Cross
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:21:00 -
[905]
Answer #2. Question #1 was good for me because rather than listen to just one side of the argument, and both sides have very good arguments for and against BACON, it is imperative to the survival of EvE as an MMO that CCP finds a balance that somewhat satisfies the needs of all its players. The last thing CCP and we the players want is for EvE to get boring. Anything that forces the gamer community and the developers of a game to sit down and discuss what is good and bad about a feature of a game may ultimately lead to a change in the game that helps strike a balance. as a pvp'er I want a better scanner and a new tool that replaces the need to eyeball a chatlist for basic warning / detection information. As an industrialist I want something better than a chatlist to let me know when i need to get safe while I am doing 3 or 4 other things in game.
Answer #3. You cannot be afraid to lose a ship in EvE. The risk of loss, economic, social, political, and yes even the loss of your ship and your skillpoints, is a crucial part of what makes EvE addicting and exciting. Getting ganked over, and over, and over, and over, because the only thing in game that can warn someone about a threat in local is both cumbersome to use and never really intended for that use in the first place is lame. Remember, there has to be a balance for everyone in the game. I say that from the standpoint of a pvp and an industrial toon.
BACON is not killing EvE. It is an enhancement for something (local) that cannot perform a job well enough. If BACON forces CCP to give us a better scanner and more anonymity and "fog of war" in space then maybe its isn't so bad after all. Chances are that BACON has showed CCP that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction for a certain aspect of the game and maybe we'll see a little bit of movement towards changing that aspect in a way that strikes a balance for all of us.
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Arctur Ceti
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:22:00 -
[906]
Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 29/04/2008 15:24:43
Originally by: NightmareX I'am very amazed on how many extremely stupid peoples there is in this channel, you absolutely don't know what you are talking about and what this program is actually doing with EVE.
You carebears don't see it, because all you are thinking is OMGOMG WAAAAAAAH I CAN'T DIE, IT'S TO HARD TO LOSE A SHIP, CRYYYYYYYYY.
Think for a minute on what this program is doing, think about it. I know you are to afraid to lose some pixels, but use another tool ingame that you can use to avoid beeing killed. It's tons of ways to avoid it.
But your just to damn lazy to use it, you need to have a program that does it for you automaticly, how sad is that.
You guys fails terribly in EVE, you nothing more than zero, also junk, trash, piece of **** to say it that way.
You need to take your own advice and realize it's only a game. Relax. it's only pixels you know .
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Leila Cross
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:24:00 -
[907]
Edited by: Leila Cross on 29/04/2008 15:25:19
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Leila Cross
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:24:00 -
[908]
Edited by: Leila Cross on 29/04/2008 15:24:52
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Pete Stalker
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:25:00 -
[909]
Hydra says it all tbfh
There are only two types of aircrafts -- fighters and targets. |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:26:00 -
[910]
I'm just telling the truth, nothing more.
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Everyone Dies
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:29:00 -
[911]
Originally by: NightmareX I'am very amazed on how many extremely stupid peoples there is in this channel, you absolutely don't know what you are talking about and what this program is actually doing with EVE.
You carebears don't see it, because all you are thinking is OMGOMG WAAAAAAAH I CAN'T DIE, IT'S TO HARD TO LOSE A SHIP, CRYYYYYYYYY.
Think for a minute on what this program is doing, think about it. I know you are to afraid to lose some pixels, but use another tool ingame that you can use to avoid beeing killed. It's tons of ways to avoid it.
But your just to damn lazy to use it, you need to have a program that does it for you automaticly, how sad is that.
You guys fails terribly in EVE, you nothing more than zero, also junk, trash, piece of **** to say it that way.
THIS
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Zartach Tzarszh
Minmatar The Royal Engineers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:31:00 -
[912]
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
Originally by: NightmareX To those who are defending this piece of **** program.
1. Can you give me an exact reason why this program is good for EVE, and can you also tell me what good things this program brings to EVE? And also give me a reason why that good thing again is good for EVE.
2. Can you give me an extremely good point on why question 1 was very good for you?
3. If your that scared to lose a ship and then use this useless program, then this game is not for you. Maybe WoW is for you, no risk of dying there, just go back to you corpse and continue.
And yes, this program is something that is one of the things that are slowly but surely killing EVE.
THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TO KILL EVE.
But meh, this will be fixed pretty soon anyways. What should you do without it?, i can come and hold your hand and protect you for a price if you want.
Personally I consider the Bacon as the Eve version of a military radar/warning system.In addition,I stronly believe that Bacon will create new tactical opportunities,especially in PVP zones
Pvp zones ???
What is this, wow ?
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Dingi223
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:51:00 -
[913]
Originally by: Leila Cross BACON is not killing EvE. It is an enhancement for something (local) that cannot perform a job well enough. If BACON forces CCP to give us a better scanner and more anonymity and "fog of war" in space then maybe its isn't so bad after all. Chances are that BACON has showed CCP that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction for a certain aspect of the game and maybe we'll see a little bit of movement towards changing that aspect in a way that strikes a balance for all of us.
This. By releasing this tool to the public, it has made the 'local channel should not be used for intel' molehill into a mountain. This has simply brought an issue that has always existed into the spotlight. Hopefully this issue at large will now surface to the top, and hopefully it will now result in CCP having to make a change for the better of EVE.
Personally I think all 3rd parties tool that dumb down a game should be banned. I understand the argument that it's playing smart, and it is, however I believe it's an abuse of game mechanics. I call these exploits, using game available content to achieve something it was not meant for. Exploits are only very slightly below outright cheating, which is changing game content to achieve something.
That is just my opinion. I want EVE to be hard and smart people using game intended features to win. Time will tell if CCP intended local to be used this way.
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NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:57:00 -
[914]
You are saying the BEACON program is only making a noice, hmm, well, but i'll guess you know that it's easy to make a macro program that does tons of thing to that simple noice right?
That's one of the problems.
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Dingi223
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:20:00 -
[915]
Edited by: Dingi223 on 29/04/2008 16:23:23
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix Maybe,however CCP did recognize they were aware of other such private tools.My problem comes from the fact that until BACON came to existence,CCP seems to have been lazy to look for a solution.However now that BACON is here,they are looking for a solution. Sorry,but that is suspicious to me. As far as CCP favouring alliances/corps, it was not so long ago
That seems suspicious to you? After reading your posts I wonder what your motive is, you seem so determined to defend yourself and your opinions that you seem unable to think logically.
Local has always been an issue, and there have been comments made that Local was not intended for use as an Intel tool (comments, not rules). However, CCP and the Dev team have a large number of priorities, so people sit in a room, together with the marketing people, and prioritise next steps. Local was probably on the list, but it's a long list. Yes they are aware that people could abuse the logs, yes they may have been aware that some corporations / alliances were using it, but the impact and exposure was low.
BACON comes out, and all of sudden the impact and exposure is that much higher. Everyone is aware of it.
So I actually thank you and everyone that released BACON to the public, because it has finally escalated the Local as intel problem to the forefront. At least people are talking about it now, it has the exposure it needs, and hopefully either BACON gets coded as a game feature, or local gets dropped (in it's form and all tools leveraging it), and everyone can play again on an equal footing.
It's not being lazy, it's being busy and having more to do than time / developers to do it.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:25:00 -
[916]
Originally by: NightmareX
So what you are saying that even when many of those are using more advanced programs than BEACON, then it means that you then can make more of those apps?, just because some others are doing it?.
What I am saying is that Gunfleet has been very careful to respect the EULA, the TOS and the will of CCP throughout this launch. We're not interested in creating EULA or TOS breaking tools.
On a personal note, I find the fury about BACON surprising, considering that according to CCP large groups of people are already using similar tools. I also find it surprising that people aren't criticizing the huge swath of illegal tools that actually do what BACON has been accused of doing - automating game play.
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Niobius Julius
Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:38:00 -
[917]
This whole thing is such a bull****, I just can't believe it. Justifing this tool because all iskfarmers already use it etc etc
I can imagine EVE after a year: my 1 iskmaking char doing missions 23/7, 2 mining chars with 1 hauler char mining nonstop, 1 pvp char afk auto-roaming while another participating in tower siege just following orders of AI FC while me having a sunbath at beach, drinking beer and stuff, just checking killboards and personal wallet with my phone once in awhile.
Now I really wish to see local gone. Just to see all these hydra, ED and friends carebearization cry. |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:45:00 -
[918]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: NightmareX
So what you are saying that even when many of those are using more advanced programs than BEACON, then it means that you then can make more of those apps?, just because some others are doing it?.
What I am saying is that Gunfleet has been very careful to respect the EULA, the TOS and the will of CCP throughout this launch. We're not interested in creating EULA or TOS breaking tools.
On a personal note, I find the fury about BACON surprising, considering that according to CCP large groups of people are already using similar tools. I also find it surprising that people aren't criticizing the huge swath of illegal tools that actually do what BACON has been accused of doing - automating game play.
Yeah, but even when your following the EULA, that need to be seriously updated anyways, does that mean a program like BEACON is good for EVE then?.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:53:00 -
[919]
Originally by: Reuser On a personal note, I find the fury about BACON surprising, considering that according to CCP large groups of people are already using similar tools. I also find it surprising that people aren't criticizing the huge swath of illegal tools that actually do what BACON has been accused of doing - automating game play.
You shouldn't find it surprising. What you have here are two different factions:
The first group are people who actually use a BACON-Esque program already (or one of the much more powerful tools that, unlike BACON, actually violate the EULA) and don't like their little party being crashed.
They have had a near-monopoly of these types of tools for a long time, and simply don't want to share. So they scream and yell about BACON, hoping that some people will be persuaded to not use it, so these elitists can continue to have an upper hand.
The Second (and much larger) group are the Ostriches. People who have had their head in the sand about how easy it is to make tools like this, and how many tools are out there. They are so busy hyperventilating about BACON, they refuse to see how minor it really is, and how it can help their own gameplay. They are emotionalists working from a position of ignorance, raging against something they don't understand and refuse to learn about. Thus, you get long-winded whiny diatribes about "lost playstyles" like we got on the drone bay podcast the other day.
People who take the time to step back, test out and really understand what BACON does and does NOT do, would understand that BACON is a simple and effective tool for something that should have been added to EvE from DAY ONE, rather than as a third party add-on years after release. It's not game-breaking, it's game-FIXING. It automates NO ACTION BY THE PLAYER, and provides a logical and simple information output of a very limited amount of data.
Once again, Superlative work by Gunfleet Logistics. I have been, and will continue to use it, and I have been promoting it to my Corp and Alliance.
To all the ostriches; Quit whining, use BACON.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:56:00 -
[920]
Edited by: Avon on 29/04/2008 16:59:22 Well, I am happily in the third group, which you failed to mention.
Do not use apps like this. Would not use apps like this.
Think all apps like this should be rendered unable to function.
Added for clarity: I understand exactly how BACON functions, and exactly what it does. I also understand exactly what applications like this could be made to do - and that is where the real problem is.
If anyone is an Ostrich, it is you.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:00:00 -
[921]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 29/04/2008 17:06:20
Originally by: Avon Well, I am happily in the third group, which you failed to mention.
Do not use apps like this. Would not use apps like this.
Think all apps like this should be rendered unable to function.
EDIT: Just saw your corp and alliance ticker. You are a major BoB player, and BoB DOES use an app like this. Sounds to me like you are in the first group. Don't like us ordinary types horning in on your action eh?
Nice try, but we don't believe you.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:05:00 -
[922]
Originally by: Reuser I also find it surprising that people aren't criticizing the huge swath of illegal tools that actually do what BACON has been accused of doing - automating game play.
Yeah it is extremely surprising. It's not as if you made a whole thread announcing and advertizing your product...oops, I guess you did. People who pull publicity stunts don't get to choose only positive attention.
Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:06:00 -
[923]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
EDIT: Just saw your corp and alliance ticker. Your a major BoB player, and BoB DOES use an app like this. Sounds to me like you are in the first group. Don't like us ordinary types horning in on your action eh?
Nice try, but we don't believe you.
Er, sure bud - keep breathing the fumes.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Leila Cross
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:10:00 -
[924]
Originally by: Bish Ounen People who take the time to step back, test out and really understand what BACON does and does NOT do, would understand that BACON is a simple and effective tool for something that should have been added to EvE from DAY ONE, rather than as a third party add-on years after release. It's not game-breaking, it's game-FIXING. It automates NO ACTION BY THE PLAYER, and provides a logical and simple information output of a very limited amount of data.
This is a good summary of what many of us, while not supporting exploits and macros, feel about this issue.
Now here is the test. The major objection appears to be against a third party tool that may possibly give someone an edge. What if CCP incorporated this into the game? If the developers provide this in game then it is no longer an exploit, right? |
Nielas
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:11:00 -
[925]
Originally by: NightmareX
Yeah, but even when your following the EULA, that need to be seriously updated anyways, does that mean a program like BEACON is good for EVE then?.
'Good for EVE' is highly subjective. It really depends on where you want the game to go. There are plenty of things in the game right now that I do not think are 'good for EVE'.
EVE is a highly imperfect system. However, what one group views as a design flaw, another group sees as a highly valued feature. While one group might view BACON as something that is going to destroy the game if not eradicated, others view it as a step toward EVE becoming what it should have been from the beginning.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:13:00 -
[926]
Originally by: Leila Cross If the developers provide this in game then it is no longer an exploit, right?
Once upon a time in Eve there used to be a thing called the "Threat Warning Box", which gave audiable cues to certain events. The sound effect from that when a hostile was near was a spine-tingling noise. I'd vote to have that back.
However, as to hearing people entering any gate in a system? No, I wouldn't support that as a game feature.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:15:00 -
[927]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
Except that the ONLY way to provide credible evidence would be to name or link to the offending programs, or provide screenshots or video of them in use. ALL of these options are TOS violations, as one cannot IN ANY WAY promote or link to tools that blatantly violate the EULA, as these other tools do. Thusly, providing evidence would immediately gat the provider of the evidence BANNED.
That's rather convenient for you, isn't it? You get to sit up on your high horse pontificating about the lack of evidence, when providing said evidence would result in am immediate ban of those you attack. Nice position to be in.
How about you Ostriches spend some time on Google? It's shockingly easy to find one or more of the major full-automation tools for EVE out on the Internet. Since you guys are so smart, and seem to know so much more about the EULA and the TOS than even CCP, I'm sure finding such a little thing like an automation program for EvE would be no trouble at all for you. You intellectual giants you.
P.S. Be careful not to strain yourselves pulling those giant brain-filled heads out of the cavity in the sand they are buried in.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:15:00 -
[928]
Originally by: Nielas
'Good for EVE' is highly subjective. It really depends on where you want the game to go. There are plenty of things in the game right now that I do not think are 'good for EVE'.
EVE is a highly imperfect system. However, what one group views as a design flaw, another group sees as a highly valued feature. While one group might view BACON as something that is going to destroy the game if not eradicated, others view it as a step toward EVE becoming what it should have been from the beginning.
The important point is that it should be up to CCP to ultimately decide what features are good for Eve, and incorporate them. The same defence you give could equally be used by macro miners - because ingame macros would make their gameplay better, and other games have them...
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:18:00 -
[929]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
Except that the ONLY way to provide credible evidence would be to name or link to the offending programs, or provide screenshots or video of them in use. ALL of these options are TOS violations, as one cannot IN ANY WAY promote or link to tools that blatantly violate the EULA, as these other tools do. Thusly, providing evidence would immediately gat the provider of the evidence BANNED.
That's rather convenient for you, isn't it? You get to sit up on your high horse pontificating about the lack of evidence, when providing said evidence would result in am immediate ban of those you attack. Nice position to be in.
How about you Ostriches spend some time on Google? It's shockingly easy to find one or more of the major full-automation tools for EVE out on the Internet. Since you guys are so smart, and seem to know so much more about the EULA and the TOS than even CCP, I'm sure finding such a little thing like an automation program for EvE would be no trouble at all for you. You intellectual giants you.
P.S. Be careful not to strain yourselves pulling those giant brain-filled heads out of the cavity in the sand they are buried in.
That was the longest "I am making accusations without any proof" post I have ever seen. Almost.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
NightmareX
Quam Singulari Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:20:00 -
[930]
Edited by: NightmareX on 29/04/2008 17:26:01
Originally by: Nielas
Originally by: NightmareX
Yeah, but even when your following the EULA, that need to be seriously updated anyways, does that mean a program like BEACON is good for EVE then?.
'Good for EVE' is highly subjective. It really depends on where you want the game to go. There are plenty of things in the game right now that I do not think are 'good for EVE'.
EVE is a highly imperfect system. However, what one group views as a design flaw, another group sees as a highly valued feature. While one group might view BACON as something that is going to destroy the game if not eradicated, others view it as a step toward EVE becoming what it should have been from the beginning.
I bet that you would just made this game into a WoW v2.0 or something from the beginning, a game without ANY pvpers.It's the PVPers that are buying the stuffs from the carebears who are mining and building stuffs. You see my point??.
Without ANY pvpers in EVE, who would buy stuffs from market?.
Well anyways, the crybabys / carebears just cry on the forum now anyways and they get what they want, so it's nothing new that the carebears are trying to get EVE into a new World of Warcraft.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:21:00 -
[931]
Originally by: Avon some crap
High Horse, meet Avon. Avon, meet High Horse. I'm sure you two will get along just fine.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:25:00 -
[932]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: Avon some crap
High Horse, meet Avon. Avon, meet High Horse. I'm sure you two will get along just fine.
Mud slinging defence - failed Long excuse posts with no content - failed.
zomg .. move on to the personal insults...
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Leila Cross
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:28:00 -
[933]
Edited by: Leila Cross on 29/04/2008 17:31:07
Originally by: Avon Once upon a time in Eve there used to be a thing called the "Threat Warning Box", which gave audiable cues to certain events. The sound effect from that when a hostile was near was a spine-tingling noise.
I'd vote to have that back.
However, as to hearing people entering any gate in a system? No, I wouldn't support that as a game feature.
The "balance" for me as an industrial character or pvp character in this situation would be that my name would not appear in local, constellation, etc, unless I actively sent a chat. I would like the ability to tailor my threat warning box to tell me when certain standings, and security status criteria are met, and how far away those criteria are. You don't know who I am, I don't know who you are, we both know that someone else is in system once they get close enough to trigger that audible alert. If we opened up our scanner and got within the proper scanning range we would see 2 little blips signifying you and me and our spatial relationship. If one of us was feeling really ambitious we could try to warp in on the other blip (how close would be a function of your scanning skills) and send them some love.
That would be balance and reality. People who spend time on skills and practice their strategies will benefit nicely (predator or prey). Those who want to go afk or not pay attention to skills will not do so well. That's one opinion on the matter.
The crux for me is that CCP still has to address the issue of BACON and why so many people like it, and why so many people don't! Maybe the game will EvE-olve (couldn't help myself) into a more challenging experience for it. |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:31:00 -
[934]
Originally by: Leila Cross
The "balance" for me as an industrial character or pvp character in this situation would be that my name would not appear in local, constellation, etc, unless I actively sent a chat. I would like the ability to tailor my threat warning box to tell me when certain standings, and security status criteria are met, and how far away those criteria are. You don't know who I am, I don't know who you are, we both know that someone else is in system once they get close enough to trigger that audible alert. If we opened up our scanner and got within the proper scanning range we would see 2 little blips signifying you and me and our spatial relationship. If one of us was feeling really ambitious we could try to warp in on the other blip (how close would be a function of your scanning skills) and send them some love.
That would be balance and reality. People who spend time on skills and practice their strategies will benefit nicely (predator or prey). Those who want to go afk or not pay attention to skills will not do so well.
Far too sensible a suggestion to get lost in this thread - you really should post it in the ideas section. Personally I like the concept.
I made a long post somewhere about re-working local .. but I can't remember which thread I put it in. :)
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:39:00 -
[935]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
Except that the ONLY way to provide credible evidence would be to name or link to the offending programs, or provide screenshots or video of them in use. ALL of these options are TOS violations, as one cannot IN ANY WAY promote or link to tools that blatantly violate the EULA, as these other tools do. Thusly, providing evidence would immediately gat the provider of the evidence BANNED.
What are you talking about? I see credible threads about macros here at least a few times a month, that manage to do so without promoting them. And then you've got other forums devoted to EVE where you can post almost whatever you like if you're truly concerned about it.
Quote: That's rather convenient for you, isn't it? You get to sit up on your high horse pontificating about the lack of evidence, when providing said evidence would result in am immediate ban of those you attack. Nice position to be in.
Wow, this is a bizarro-planet point you're trying to make, that this phantom TOS argument you've tried to construct is somehow convenient for me.
But it gets better! I never claimed that other, much worse things than BACON aren't out there, you silly, silly troll. I'm certain they are, and guess what? They suck too! Thanks for the shameless strawman though. :)
Quote: How about you Ostriches spend some time on Google? It's shockingly easy to find one or more of the major full-automation tools for EVE out on the Internet. Since you guys are so smart, and seem to know so much more about the EULA and the TOS than even CCP, I'm sure finding such a little thing like an automation program for EvE would be no trouble at all for you. You intellectual giants you.
P.S. Be careful not to strain yourselves pulling those giant brain-filled heads out of the cavity in the sand they are buried in.
Take it easy, kiddo. Are you trying to hurt my feelings? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:41:00 -
[936]
Originally by: Avon
Mud slinging defence - failed Long excuse posts with no content - failed.
zomg .. move on to the personal insults...
Misdirection defense - failed. Reading comprehension - failed.
Must be time to move on to the strawman arguments then eh Avon?
Remember: It's not an insult or an Ad Hominem if it is TRUE.
However, I'm more than willing to be reasonable. Goodness knows there have been enough flames in this thread already to burn down Rome twice over. Tell you what; If a GM comes on here and explicitly authorizes me to name and link to some of the TOS and EULA violating software, I will. That work for ya?
Until then, Google is your friend, and continually asking for evidence you KNOW will get me banned is nothing more than trolling. If you think you are going to bait me into getting myself banned from the forums for a TOS violation you are SADLY mistaken. No, I'm not going to e-mail it to you either, because that could ALSO fall under a TOS violation.
I refuse to "injure" myself to prove a point YOU ALREADY KNOW IS TRUE.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:41:00 -
[937]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
I don't have to make a thread. CCP Grimmi TOLD YOU, in this very thread. See below. My highlights, for emphasis. On the flip side, it's not my job to do your intel work for you. Go do some footwork and find out for yourself. Even if I told you who was using the tools, would you trust me?
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:50:00 -
[938]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
I don't have to make a thread. CCP Grimmi TOLD YOU, in this very thread. See below. My highlights, for emphasis. On the flip side, it's not my job to do your intel work for you. Go do some footwork and find out for yourself. Even if I told you who was using the tools, would you trust me?
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Thanks for the backup Reuser.
Note too, that even if you DID tell them here in the forums, you would be banned for it.
They are just trolling. Trying to discredit anyone that likes BACON with one logical fallacy after another, making emotional arguments rather than reasoned discourse.
Best of luck with BACON, I hope to see your new projects soon.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:55:00 -
[939]
with the way it seems Dev's want to take this game, hello kitty will look like hannible lector in hot pink... its utterly atroctious to think the whining of lower skilled, lazy players has been allowed to persist for this long.
if this is the grand scheme to remove local altogether touche! but i see much fail in this and in anyone who would support it
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:58:00 -
[940]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
I don't have to make a thread. CCP Grimmi TOLD YOU, in this very thread. See below. My highlights, for emphasis. On the flip side, it's not my job to do your intel work for you. Go do some footwork and find out for yourself. Even if I told you who was using the tools, would you trust me?
Actually I might. But I was either unclear on my point, or you've chosen to overlook it. I was responding to this:
"I also find it surprising that people aren't criticizing the huge swath of illegal tools that actually do what BACON has been accused of doing - automating game play."
Why should you be surprised? Do you really imagine people will criticize other specific tools before there's specific information on these forums? Do you seriously think that if Alliance X now made announcement of a Baconesque tool that the response would be any different, except by virtue of the novelty wearing off?
Also note that Grimmi's quote says nothing about these other tools doing anything more than yours does, and thus by definition should be ok to discuss on the forums. But if it makes you happy,
<insert advance generic criticism and concern about the "many similar tools" here>
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
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Nielas
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 18:00:00 -
[941]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 29/04/2008 17:26:01
Originally by: Nielas
Originally by: NightmareX
Yeah, but even when your following the EULA, that need to be seriously updated anyways, does that mean a program like BEACON is good for EVE then?.
'Good for EVE' is highly subjective. It really depends on where you want the game to go. There are plenty of things in the game right now that I do not think are 'good for EVE'.
EVE is a highly imperfect system. However, what one group views as a design flaw, another group sees as a highly valued feature. While one group might view BACON as something that is going to destroy the game if not eradicated, others view it as a step toward EVE becoming what it should have been from the beginning.
I bet that you would just made this game into a WoW v2.0 or something from the beginning, a game without ANY pvpers.It's the PVPers that are buying the stuffs from the carebears who are mining and building stuffs. You see my point??.
Without ANY pvpers in EVE, who would buy stuffs from market?.
Well anyways, the crybabys / carebears just cry on the forum now anyways and they get what they want, so it's nothing new that the carebears are trying to get EVE into a new World of Warcraft.
Funny enough my main problem with EVE is how softcore the PvP is. It's making both the PvE and PvP sides of the game unwieldy and based on technicalities and loopholes. It's as if CPP decided that it's PvP audience was not ready for real hardcore PvP and stopped halfway there.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 18:15:00 -
[942]
Edited by: Avon on 29/04/2008 18:15:36
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Must be time to move on to the strawman arguments then eh Avon?
Oh, I wouldn't try to beat you on your home turf.
You claimed that I am attacking Bacon because I don't want people having an unfair advantage which you claim I use.
I said I have never used, nor would I, and application like BACON.
You also said you didn't believe me.
Your "proof" consists of people being able to google for applications which break the EULA. However I see no evidentiary link between the existence of such apps, and who uses them.
Your strawman is obvious to all.
If you want to accuse me of lying, that it your prerogative - but without any proof, it is nothing more than a troll and a persoanl attack.
If that is the standard of your debating ability, I think it is safe to write your points off as meaningless space-fillers.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 18:35:00 -
[943]
Originally by: Avon
However I see no evidentiary link between the existence of such apps, and who uses them.
Reading comprehension fail AGAIN Avon:
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
That evidence enough for ya? GM Grimmi acknowledges the presence of other BACON-like programs. Reuser posted this about 5 posts up from you, and GM Grimmi posted this earlier in this very thread.
Incidentally, the question was not an evidentiary link between the programs and who uses them, but if the programs exist AT ALL. Twisting the original question to suit your purposes does not make you correct.
As Reuser so wisely said, it is not my job to do your homework for you. GM Grimmi's post should be enough evidence, but if you need more, Google is available. Stop being lazy and trolling my posts and this thread.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 18:40:00 -
[944]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Reading comprehension fail AGAIN Avon:
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
That evidence enough for ya? GM Grimmi acknowledges the presence of other BACON-like programs. Reuser posted this about 5 posts up from you, and GM Grimmi posted this earlier in this very thread.
Incidentally, the question was not an evidentiary link between the programs and who uses them, but if the programs exist AT ALL. Twisting the original question to suit your purposes does not make you correct.
As Reuser so wisely said, it is not my job to do your homework for you. GM Grimmi's post should be enough evidence, but if you need more, Google is available. Stop being lazy and trolling my posts and this thread.
What I don't understand is why you think it matters that other people use programs like this. It doesn't make it less wrong. As I understand it, what Avon meant was that your accusation of him using programs like BACON was completely unfounded. It's tinfoil logic at it's best. The fact that people out there use BACON like programs are not in question here.
BACON and all programs like it should and will be put out of commision when CCP manages to fix the log server. In the mean time, if you have any respect for CCP and your fellow players, don't use it. If you persist on using it, don't be surprised when you are called exploiter, cheater or worse, and with good reason.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 19:09:00 -
[945]
Originally by: Koro Kar'Amarr Remove BACON Remove Local
Constellation is local enough.
That's the smartest thing I've see on here.
Constellations the new local. That makes everyone happy.
Think about it for a second. if you're farming you pick a system that is in the middle of the constellation. If a hostile comes in you know he is say 1 or 2 jumps away. So you dock or cloak.
Now on the other hand, you could be hunting for someone. You jump into a constellation and see a couple in there. You send your fleet out to different systems and start to perform scans.
Of cause cloak would need to change, allow it to be scanned down but with a 25 km accuracy. So you have 25km^3 to find the ship only after you have got the point you use a snoop probe.
Sure it would take longer, but it an answer to everyones issues about local, cloaking, 0.0 and lowsec hunting.
Amarr for Life |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 19:23:00 -
[946]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: Avon
However I see no evidentiary link between the existence of such apps, and who uses them.
Reading comprehension fail AGAIN Avon:
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
That evidence enough for ya? GM Grimmi acknowledges the presence of other BACON-like programs. Reuser posted this about 5 posts up from you, and GM Grimmi posted this earlier in this very thread.
Incidentally, the question was not an evidentiary link between the programs and who uses them, but if the programs exist AT ALL.
No, you're dead wrong about what the question was. It was "Why are people criticizing BACON instead of these other programs?" not "Is BACON the only program that exists?"
Either that, or it's about your specific accusations (see posts #937 and #952) that Avon and his alliance use programs just like this one, and are merely trying to keep anybody else from having access to them.
Quote: Twisting the original question to suit your purposes does not make you correct.
I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you're merely confused. Otherwise that sentence would be worth a few Mr. Rolleyeyes. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.04.29 19:23:00 -
[947]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 29/04/2008 19:25:58
Originally by: Ki An What I don't understand is why you think it matters that other people use programs like this. It doesn't make it less wrong. As I understand it, what Avon meant was that your accusation of him using programs like BACON was completely unfounded. It's tinfoil logic at it's best. The fact that people out there use BACON like programs are not in question here.
BACON and all programs like it should and will be put out of commision when CCP manages to fix the log server. In the mean time, if you have any respect for CCP and your fellow players, don't use it. If you persist on using it, don't be surprised when you are called exploiter, cheater or worse, and with good reason.
I suspect you have not been following the issue here. If you had, you would know that the only reason other programs have been brought up is because two accusations were made and/or implied by other people's posts.
1) That BACON was totally unique, and that there were no other programs that did what BACON does. - This is clearly false, and GM Grimmi backs this up with his statement.
2) That BACON is a macro program that automates playing EvE, or is in some way equivalent to a macro program. - Also clearly false, as even a superficial investigation of BACON will show you that it is nothing more than an audible prompt for data already present in the game. It takes no actions for you, and if you are really AFK it won't help you at all.
(NOTE: Some people, including the Drone Bay podcasters, have made the assertion that they could "easily" alter BACON to do more than just play sounds. This is a strawman argument. If you can easily alter BACON to do other things, not only is the resulting program no longer BACON, but it is highly likely that you could write your OWN program to do this. Not a valid argument.)
- A very small amount of Googling will turn up plenty of ACTUAL automation and macro programs that REALLY DO automate mining, ratting, safe-spotting and logoffski. These programs are both far more complex than BACON, and really DO violate the EULA and TOS of EvE.
As far as my accusations to Avon go, that was not the original context of the question. The original question was whether other BACON-like programs really exist, and (as I have been reminded) why people are criticizing BACON and not the other programs. Avon is simply trying to twist the argument around. Reading back up the page here will clear that up. Yes, I did accuse him of lying, but not till MUCH LATER in the conversation, in an unrelated exchange. Avon is simply attempting to conflate the two separate issues because he seems to think that it will benefit him.
As far as my accusations against Avon go; there are posts in this very thread about BoB using a program very much like Bacon. Avon is a well-known and high-ranking BoB member. His statements that he is unaware of the use of said programs I find to be specious given evidence already presented elsewhere in this thread.
HOWEVER, I will grant that it may be he really IS unaware that BoB has been using a BACON-like program. If that is the case, then either the users of the program are a single corp or other closed off group within BoB, or Avon is much less aware of the goings-on in his Alliance than he should be.
Nevertheless, that does not make me a tinfoil hat wearer. Merely an over-zealous accuser. If that is the case, then Avon, I apologize.
As far as whether BACON will or should be put out of commission, I leave that up to CCP to decide. If I had my druthers, BACON's functionality would be added to EvE, making BACON unnecessary. Either way, I will continue to use BACON to enhance my game play as long as possible and people can call me whatever they like. I will laugh at them as they stew in frustration at not being able to catch me off-guard.
Delicious BACON. Use it or lose.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 19:29:00 -
[948]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Incidentally, the question was not an evidentiary link between the programs and who uses them, but if the programs exist AT ALL. Twisting the original question to suit your purposes does not make you correct.
Me twisting?
I never said that other apps like this don't existed, in fact I made a rather in depth post earlier about one which was created and abandoned. I did say that all applications like this should be rendered unable to function, either by removing the logserver, allowing logging only on sisi, or encrypting the output.
It was you making the link between these "other" applications and people using them. You made a direct accusation. What you lacked was evidence. Mud slinging in the hope that some would stick.
The evidence of my position is clear to see throughout this thread, so maybe it isn't *my* reading comprehension which is lacking?
What your position seems to be is that you want to gain an advantage, and your justification is that other people might be doing it to. I used to hear the same defence frequently when I was banning people for using aim-bots and wall-hacks.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 19:59:00 -
[949]
Originally by: Avon I used to hear the same defence frequently when I was banning people for using aim-bots and wall-hacks.
Except that Aim-bots and wall-hacks actually DO violate the EULAs of the games they affect. BACON DOES NOT. The two are NOT comparable, stop trying to conflate them.
Gunfleet Logistics was, as they have stated, very careful to stay within the EULA with BACON. They worked closely with CCP to ensure that they would not violate the EULA, and when CCP didn't like something in BACON (the now-removed reporting server) Gunfleet TOOK IT OUT. They respected CCP's wishes, just as any third party programming shop would when partnering with another company.
CCP is reviewing BACON as we speak, and, should they decide that BACON is "damaging" to EvE, or in some way violates the ELUA or TOS, then all they have to do is inform Gunfleet, and Gunfleet will withdraw BACON.
Incidentally, if CCP does indeed decide to ask Gunfleet to pull BACON, I will also stop using it. I do not and would not use any program that violates the EULA or the TOS. Indeed, if I was willing to ACTUALLY cheat, BACON would not even be worth my time. There are (as I have said REPEATEDLY) other programs available on the web that do SO MUCH MORE than BACON. These programs could make me an ISK Multi-Billionaire in a very short period of time indeed, and CCP would neither be able to detect it, nor stop me.
Yet, for some reason my wallet never seems to go much above 150 million ISK, and I have to struggle to afford a Dominix in my limited playtime. How odd that I would be so poor if I was no better than those who would use an aim-bot or a wall-hack.
Or could it be that YOU are the mud-slinger trying to paint me with the cheater's brush?
Stop trolling Avon. Go use BACON for a while. Realize what it does and does NOT do, and THEN come back and post.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:15:00 -
[950]
Let me get this absolutely straight.
It is now your claim that CCP and Gunfleet worked together to develop an application which CCP frown upon?
Just, wow.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:27:00 -
[951]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
CCP is reviewing BACON as we speak, and, should they decide that BACON is "damaging" to EvE, or in some way violates the ELUA or TOS, then all they have to do is inform Gunfleet, and Gunfleet will withdraw BACON.
Do you honestly think that a piece of open source software can be withdrawn?
Unless CCP modifies the log server to make BACON non-functional, something they have already indicated they are willing to do, BACON is a permanent part of the EVE landscape.
And that includes all the modifications of BACON that have been made by people skilled enough to replace the sound event with a keyboard event.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:30:00 -
[952]
Originally by: Avon Let me get this absolutely straight.
It is now your claim that CCP and Gunfleet worked together to develop an application which CCP frown upon?
Just, wow.
Actually, since you do seem to be pretty knowledgeable about things... Why don't you tell Cesar how much communication he has had with the devs? Like the rest of the thread, I'm sure you know the content of those communications as well.
You'll fit nicely with all the other folks telling Cesar what he thought and why he created BACON. Likewise, you'll fit in nicely with all the hordes of folks telling CCP what they think.
*sighs* I think this thread is finally getting to me.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:33:00 -
[953]
Originally by: Reuser
Actually, since you do seem to be pretty knowledgeable about things... Why don't you tell Cesar how much communication he has had with the devs? Like the rest of the thread, I'm sure you know the content of those communications as well.
You'll fit nicely with all the other folks telling Cesar what he thought and why he created BACON. Likewise, you'll fit in nicely with all the hordes of folks telling CCP what they think.
*sighs* I think this thread is finally getting to me.
MSN, amirite?
No.. wait..
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:34:00 -
[954]
Originally by: Avon
MSN, amirite?
No.. wait..
*laughs* Well played, sir!
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:36:00 -
[955]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 29/04/2008 20:36:40
Originally by: Reuser *sighs* I think this thread is finally getting to me.
Don't let it get to you Reuser. I've been going back through the thread again reading Avon's posts (they are frequent) and it's quite clear that he's only interested in trolling.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 20:54:00 -
[956]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
I suspect you have not been following the issue here. If you had, you would know that the only reason other programs have been brought up is because two accusations were made and/or implied by other people's posts.
In fact, I have been following the issue very closely. This "there are other programs out there" is just a strawman set up to deflect from the issues the BACON release has brought up. Of course, given the simple nature of BACON, it is now obvious that other such programs are out there. I don't believe many of those criticizing BACON are doing so because they want to keep these secrets to themselves. Doing so would be pretty stupid.
Originally by: Bish Ounen
2) That BACON is a macro program that automates playing EvE, or is in some way equivalent to a macro program. - Also clearly false, as even a superficial investigation of BACON will show you that it is nothing more than an audible prompt for data already present in the game. It takes no actions for you, and if you are really AFK it won't help you at all.
As has been shown in several posts in several threads, the "BACON doesn't automate anything" defense isn't going to hold, as it does indeed automate something. Providing an audio warning automates the "watch local" activity so important to Eve.
Originally by: Bish Ounen
(NOTE: Some people, including the Drone Bay podcasters, have made the assertion that they could "easily" alter BACON to do more than just play sounds. This is a strawman argument. If you can easily alter BACON to do other things, not only is the resulting program no longer BACON, but it is highly likely that you could write your OWN program to do this. Not a valid argument.)
It is valid in the perspective of the open source release of BACON. Not only does it give people ideas. It also provides an excellent platform for further mods.
Originally by: Bish Ounen
As far as my accusations to Avon go, that was not the original context of the question. The original question was whether other BACON-like programs really exist, and (as I have been reminded) why people are criticizing BACON and not the other programs. Avon is simply trying to twist the argument around. Reading back up the page here will clear that up. Yes, I did accuse him of lying, but not till MUCH LATER in the conversation, in an unrelated exchange. Avon is simply attempting to conflate the two separate issues because he seems to think that it will benefit him.
Your error here is thinking that people aren't criticizing those "other programs". We very much are.
Originally by: Bish Ounen
As far as my accusations against Avon go; there are posts in this very thread about BoB using a program very much like Bacon. Avon is a well-known and high-ranking BoB member. His statements that he is unaware of the use of said programs I find to be specious given evidence already presented elsewhere in this thread.
So you equate scattered posts by BOB haters to evidence that BOB uses a BACON-like program?
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Nevertheless, that does not make me a tinfoil hat wearer. Merely an over-zealous accuser. If that is the case, then Avon, I apologize.
Tinfoil-hat theory is brought on by over-zealousness combined with bitterness.
Originally by: Bish Ounen
As far as whether BACON will or should be put out of commission, I leave that up to CCP to decide. If I had my druthers, BACON's functionality would be added to EvE, making BACON unnecessary. Either way, I will continue to use BACON to enhance my game play as long as possible and people can call me whatever they like. I will laugh at them as they stew in frustration at not being able to catch me off-guard.
CCP has already stated that they will put BACON and any other such programs out of comission. It's in this thread. That you use it shows your lack of respect for CCP.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:20:00 -
[957]
Edited by: Matrixcvd on 29/04/2008 21:20:03
Originally by: Bish Ounen (NOTE: Some people, including the Drone Bay podcasters, have made the assertion that they could "easily" alter BACON to do more than just play sounds. This is a strawman argument. If you can easily alter BACON to do other things, not only is the resulting program no longer BACON, but it is highly likely that you could write your OWN program to do this. Not a valid argument.)
if you give a child an unloaded pistol and tell him he can hold it while simultaneously giving his child friend next door a clip full of bullets, you have created a volitle situation. If you provide and fight for the right to use Bacon with the knowledge of the ease with which it is to modify and potentially used in methods outside your intention, you clearly have created a dangerous product, first of all which breaks EULA TOS whatever, and secondly any deriviative and or upgrade can be used in an improper manner, your product should be removed, no if ands or buts about it
that is no strawman, the strawman was light on fire the moment you thought BACON was a viable game tool for losers like you
you are just hiding behind liability and you sir are why eve may very well go down the tubes
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:28:00 -
[958]
Edited by: Reuser on 29/04/2008 21:31:48 (double post.)
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:31:00 -
[959]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
if you give a child an unloaded pistol and tell him he can hold it while simultaneously giving his child friend next door a clip full of bullets, you have created a volitle situation. If you provide and fight for the right to use Bacon with the knowledge of the ease with which it is to modify and potentially used in methods outside your intention, you clearly have created a dangerous product, first of all which breaks EULA TOS whatever, and secondly any deriviative and or upgrade can be used in an improper manner, your product should be removed, no if ands or buts about it
Great argument there. Using your logic, screwdriver manufacturers should be stopped as their product can be used to prise a door open. Computer OS producers and machine language designers? They definately should be stopped because their products can be used to break the law. Likewise, those Ubuntu folks? They're nothing more than a platform for piracy.
Argument planning board, please go back to it.
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:39:00 -
[960]
Originally by: Ki An
As has been shown in several posts in several threads, the "BACON doesn't automate anything" defense isn't going to hold, as it does indeed automate something. Providing an audio warning automates the "watch local" activity so important to Eve.
Strawman. Proponents of BACON who refer to its not automating anything are obviously referring to taking tangible actions in-game, like a macro does.
Quote:
It is valid in the perspective of the open source release of BACON. Not only does it give people ideas. It also provides an excellent platform for further mods.
The ideas have been in the technology lab forum for god knows how long. BACON is also a terrible platform for macros.
Quote: CCP has already stated that they will put BACON and any other such programs out of comission. It's in this thread. That you use it shows your lack of respect for CCP.
That you describe people who use it as cheaters shows your lack of respect for CCP: that is, if it is not against CCP's rules, who are you to overrule them and declare it is cheating?
I'm sorry to reply to a troll, though
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:58:00 -
[961]
Originally by: Cori4n
Strawman. Proponents of BACON who refer to its not automating anything are obviously referring to taking tangible actions in-game, like a macro does.
Ahh, so it does automate stuff, just not the stuff that's bad to automate? Gotcha!
Originally by: Cori4n
The ideas have been in the technology lab forum for god knows how long. BACON is also a terrible platform for macros.
And now it'll get worse because of the open source being around. BACON is a great platform for macros. Look around to see people already having modified it to do stuff far beyond watching local.
Originally by: Cori4n
That you describe people who use it as cheaters shows your lack of respect for CCP: that is, if it is not against CCP's rules, who are you to overrule them and declare it is cheating?
That CCP can't say it's cheating, and have to stay with the "frowning" response doesn't mean that I and the BACON critics won't openly say it's cheating to use something like this, especially when it's been denounced by CCP.
Originally by: Cori4n
I'm sorry to reply to a troll, though
Ahh, the "you're a troll" defense. Well, you're a cheater so I guess that means I have moral superiority over you.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Kong iverz
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.29 22:05:00 -
[962]
Originally by: NightmareX
Without ANY pvpers in EVE, who would buy stuffs from market?.
Well anyways, the crybabys / carebears just cry on the forum now anyways and they get what they want, so it's nothing new that the carebears are trying to get EVE into a new World of Warcraft.
Oh so does this mean that next time i see u and ur friends popinging in to local (oh sorry hear the TICK sound) i dont have to warp to my pos because u dont have any intrest of blowing up my 3 hulks:P
i mean its not often u see a raging alcholic blow up a liqueur store???
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.29 22:35:00 -
[963]
Edited by: Cori4n on 29/04/2008 22:36:51 Edited by: Cori4n on 29/04/2008 22:35:40
Originally by: Ki An Ahh, so it does automate stuff, just not the stuff that's bad to automate? Gotcha!
Yes, exactly. There are plenty of things that are not bad to automate, consider IGB systems. Would you argue that I'm not allowed to create an IGB app that automates FC duties?
Quote: And now it'll get worse because of the open source being around. BACON is a great platform for macros. Look around to see people already having modified it to do stuff far beyond watching local.
I do not see any such modifications. Be specific, lest you make another strawman argument.
Quote: That CCP can't say it's cheating, and have to stay with the "frowning" response doesn't mean that I and the BACON critics won't openly say it's cheating to use something like this, especially when it's been denounced by CCP.
I don't think anyone in this thread has told me why CCP can't say it's an exploit, as a temporary measure before technical fixes are put through (as is done for every exploit). I am still waiting.*
*EDIT: I'm not saying that this would prevent every user from using it, of course it wouldn't. I am asking why CCP cannot say this to prevent its honest users (most of them!) from using it, and to justify calling those who do cheaters.
Quote: Ahh, the "you're a troll" defense.
I think that if you are going to use strawman arguments, such as (just from your last two posts) weirdly defining automation, and pointing to macros and expansions that do not exist, as well as arguing ad hominem by calling proponents of BACON cheaters, then you probably are a troll. But this is just my best guess: I invite you to prove me wrong with rational arguments.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.29 23:00:00 -
[964]
Originally by: Bish Ounen "Gunfleet Logistics; Making Eve as it should have been from day one."
I fail to see how BACON makes EVE a cold, harsh, unforgiving universe, as that is what EVE was set to be from day one.
I'll tell you kids what, I'll join you in asking for BACON to be integrated into EVE if you help me push them to never remove a player ship from space. You want safety? Go dock, or fit a cloak and pray CCP never gives us a much needed, very hard to use stealth penetrating probe.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 23:32:00 -
[965]
Originally by: Cori4n
Yes, exactly. There are plenty of things that are not bad to automate, consider IGB systems. Would you argue that I'm not allowed to create an IGB app that automates FC duties?
Be more specific. I would say that any 3rd party software that automates anything in Eve is tantamount to a macro. Also, who are Gunfleet Logistics or you to decide what is and what is not good to automate? CCP obviously doesn't agree with you.
Originally by: Cori4n
I do not see any such modifications. Be specific, lest you make another strawman argument.
As I said, look around. People here and on SHC have more or less posted exactly how they did to create a log-off macro from BACON in about 15 minutes. That's just a simple change, mind you.
Originally by: Cori4n
I don't think anyone in this thread has told me why CCP can't say it's an exploit, as a temporary measure before technical fixes are put through (as is done for every exploit). I am still waiting.*
You have been told why several times. You just won't accept it. There's a difference.
Originally by: Cori4n
*EDIT: I'm not saying that this would prevent every user from using it, of course it wouldn't. I am asking why CCP cannot say this to prevent its honest users (most of them!) from using it, and to justify calling those who do cheaters.
We have all the justification we need to call you and your ilk cheaters.
Originally by: Cori4n
I think that if you are going to use strawman arguments, such as (just from your last two posts) weirdly defining automation, and pointing to macros and expansions that do not exist, as well as arguing ad hominem by calling proponents of BACON cheaters, then you probably are a troll. But this is just my best guess: I invite you to prove me wrong with rational arguments.
The ones using strawmen are you and people like you. You just can't find a base of facts to argue from so you skip and jump between justifications for this outright cheat. CCP has asked you not to use it. Why the hell would you still use it? Isn't that all you need?
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.29 23:46:00 -
[966]
Originally by: Ki An
Yes, exactly. There are plenty of things that are not bad to automate, consider IGB systems. Would you argue that I'm not allowed to create an IGB app that automates FC duties?
Be more specific. I would say that any 3rd party software that automates anything in Eve is tantamount to a macro.
Then I wonder why there is an in-game browser in this game
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 23:49:00 -
[967]
Edited by: Ki An on 29/04/2008 23:49:12
Originally by: Cori4n
Then I wonder why there is an in-game browser in this game
Good question. To be able to post on killboards and use corporate forums while in game? If you think that an in-game browser justifies automated tools you're pretty messed up.
You also avoided the most serious question in my post. Hint: It's the last one.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 00:00:00 -
[968]
Originally by: Ki An
Good question. To be able to post on killboards and use corporate forums while in game? If you think that an in-game browser justifies automated tools you're pretty messed up.
The browser is a gateway to the Internet as a whole.
My corporation has an IGB app that AUTOMATES selecting the best ore to mine, given a particular market that you select, and the system you are currently in: http://gunfleet.org/igb/mining.php
I've even seen jump planners that AUTOMATE the task of planning your jumps. I mean, you just select things in dropdown boxes and it PLANS YOUR ROUTE!
OMGWTFBBQ. We're even bigger sploiters than I thought.
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.04.30 00:39:00 -
[969]
Originally by: Reuser ...
The browser is a gateway to the Internet as a whole.
My corporation has an IGB app that AUTOMATES selecting the best ore to mine, given a particular market that you select, and the system you are currently in: http://gunfleet.org/igb/mining.php
I've even seen jump planners that AUTOMATE the task of planning your jumps. I mean, you just select things in dropdown boxes and it PLANS YOUR ROUTE!
OMGWTFBBQ. We're even bigger sploiters than I thought.
Do you even know what the word automate means?
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 00:51:00 -
[970]
Originally by: Shadow Joy
Do you even know what the word automate means?
I assure you that I do. Which version of the definition are you looking for? Can we agree on the OED as the canonical source?
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:01:00 -
[971]
Originally by: Reuser
I assure you that I do. Which version of the definition are you looking for? Can we agree on the OED as the canonical source?
Sure can. Which means you explain to me how manually entering in information, then manually pressing a button to perform a set of calculations, then manually piloting your ship to the location calculated by your fancy spreadsheet counts as automation.
By the definition you seem to be using a pocket calculator is equivalent to using a macro to auto-log off the moment someone enters local.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:17:00 -
[972]
Please check my edit, above. OED sub died.
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:24:00 -
[973]
Originally by: Shadow Joy
By the definition you seem to be using a pocket calculator is equivalent to using a macro to auto-log off the moment someone enters local.
Does BACON do that? No, it doesn't. Stick to the topic at hand.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:34:00 -
[974]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Make a thread with some credible evidence about these other tools and who is using them and they'll get flamed to death too.
I don't have to make a thread. CCP Grimmi TOLD YOU, in this very thread. See below. My highlights, for emphasis. On the flip side, it's not my job to do your intel work for you. Go do some footwork and find out for yourself. Even if I told you who was using the tools, would you trust me?
Originally by: GM Grimmi Greetings,
The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.
Regards,
GM Grimmi Lead Game Master
Thanks for the backup Reuser.
Note too, that even if you DID tell them here in the forums, you would be banned for it.
They are just trolling. Trying to discredit anyone that likes BACON with one logical fallacy after another, making emotional arguments rather than reasoned discourse.
Best of luck with BACON, I hope to see your new projects soon.
I like the part where you ignore Grimmi stating that CCP is working to prevent BACON and similar programs from working properly, and completely missed him giving it the thumbs down, but not outright stating it's an exploit because of a very simple reason.
I'll let you figure out the reason. Hint: It has been stated in the thread since Grimmi's post.
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:50:00 -
[975]
Originally by: Thorradin If the logserver gave info that allowed me to make a program to warn you that your drones are taking damage, it'd be no different than BACON, just in a different area.
And I do not personally think this would be a bad thing at all, I think it should be encouraged. I differ from CCP in this view, but it is a matter of opinion. Given the current EULA situation, I would have no qualms about making such an app if it were possible (it might be).
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:50:00 -
[976]
Originally by: Thorradin
So tell me, when you run BACON, do you watch local? You don't? Then BACON is taking action for you, it is replacing your need to watch local to protect yourself.
If the logserver gave info that allowed me to make a program to warn you that your drones are taking damage, it'd be no different than BACON, just in a different area.
1. Yes, I generally watch local. Years of habit.
2. Good gravy, you're right! We can interface with our spaceships on a molecular level, but there is NO FREAKIN WAY our drones could tell us they are taking damage. Likewise, I have a HUGE FREAKIN advantage because I run a 24" monitor portrait right next to my 30" monitor. My 24" is ONLY used to display a vastly expanded local list. SPLOIT!
Is there any way at all this discussion can return to valid, well-reasoned arguments?
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Cori4n
Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:52:00 -
[977]
Edited by: Cori4n on 30/04/2008 01:52:28
Originally by: Ki An Good question. To be able to post on killboards and use corporate forums while in game?
Why does it contain tools such as reloading on session change that are only useful for what you would consider automation?
Not to beat a dead horse, but why do we have an API again?
Spreadsheets for industrialists, skill trainers!?
Surely this could only be used for automation!?
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.30 02:02:00 -
[978]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Thorradin
So tell me, when you run BACON, do you watch local? You don't? Then BACON is taking action for you, it is replacing your need to watch local to protect yourself.
If the logserver gave info that allowed me to make a program to warn you that your drones are taking damage, it'd be no different than BACON, just in a different area.
1. Yes, I generally watch local. Years of habit.
2. Good gravy, you're right! We can interface with our spaceships on a molecular level, but there is NO FREAKIN WAY our drones could tell us they are taking damage. Likewise, I have a HUGE FREAKIN advantage because I run a 24" monitor portrait right next to my 30" monitor. My 24" is ONLY used to display a vastly expanded local list. SPLOIT!
Is there any way at all this discussion can return to valid, well-reasoned arguments?
It's nice that you want your hand held when playing EVE, really, but CCP doesn't see it that way. Grimmi has already said they frown upon this, and Ouver has stated numerous times (last alliance was most recent), that local is not meant to be used as a tool for intel, yet you sit here all proud that you've made something he sees as a problem, into a bigger problem. Besides, your drones already tell you that they're taking damage. If you want to play a game without having to look at the screen then you have to accept your risks, instead of making some program that just shows how some players need a crutch.
You know, I'd like to have a program that beeps when my cap gets below a certain point, same with shields, armor and hull. Why don't you get to work on it? Maybe CCP can hire you do the next expansion:
EVE : The Musical Age
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Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 02:13:00 -
[979]
Originally by: Thorradin
You know, I'd like to have a program that beeps when my cap gets below a certain point, same with shields, armor and hull. Why don't you get to work on it? Maybe CCP can hire you do the next expansion:
EVE : The Musical Age
You sensist poltroon. Why should your eyes get preference?
More than that, all of those things are things that SHOULD be in EVE, from a usability standpoint. Game designers SHOULD take into account your ears. I don't know how many times I've knifed someone in COD4 that moved a little too loudly. CCP has neglected game audio so badly that most players play with it off. That say something to you?
Lastly, if CCP is smart, they would hire Cesar. I've been in the software industry for many moons, and he's one of the best I've ever worked with, seen, or even heard mentioned. He translates ideas into reality with an amazing ease, speed, and clarity. I've personally dumped 100s of thousands of dollars of company money on projects Cesar would have shrugged off in a night. He's just that frelling good. (This coming from a person that has worked intimately with developers resolving issues on the fly for nationally-televised keynotes and addresses.)
Again, can this discussion return to reality and well-reasoned discourse?
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.30 02:53:00 -
[980]
Originally by: Reuser
Originally by: Thorradin
You know, I'd like to have a program that beeps when my cap gets below a certain point, same with shields, armor and hull. Why don't you get to work on it? Maybe CCP can hire you do the next expansion:
EVE : The Musical Age
You sensist poltroon. Why should your eyes get preference?
More than that, all of those things are things that SHOULD be in EVE, from a usability standpoint. Game designers SHOULD take into account your ears. I don't know how many times I've knifed someone in COD4 that moved a little too loudly. CCP has neglected game audio so badly that most players play with it off. That say something to you?
Lastly, if CCP is smart, they would hire Cesar. I've been in the software industry for many moons, and he's one of the best I've ever worked with, seen, or even heard mentioned. He translates ideas into reality with an amazing ease, speed, and clarity. I've personally dumped 100s of thousands of dollars of company money on projects Cesar would have shrugged off in a night. He's just that frelling good. (This coming from a person that has worked intimately with developers resolving issues on the fly for nationally-televised keynotes and addresses.)
Again, can this discussion return to reality and well-reasoned discourse?
If all you can do is call names like a little child, I'll be done with you.
Regardless, while I'm sure your friend is a good programmer, you and he both forget you're arguing in favor of a program that not only is automating a part of the game but is automating a part of the game CCP does not want to have exist, and is making it worse. It doesn't matter what you think really, CCP doesn't want tools like your to exist, and in due time, BACON will cease to function (using logserver anyways) and you'll have to actually play the game. This discussion can return to reality when people stop making absurd claims like "BACON doesn't automate anything".
You think your safety net program should be a part of the game. I think th ability to not only pick exact warp distances should be in game, but that I should be able to trace you down, cloaked or not, and destroy you, and that players should not get to log out of the game in space and vanish from existence. Neither of us are going to get what we want, and that's good, because both would be bad for the game.
And your eyes get preference because you are using a visual aspect of the game to give you information. Ask CCP to give sonar (or some other sort of scanner) once they fix local and nerf logserver info, and then you can have your audio system so that you don't have to pay as much attention to the game. Until then, you should be grateful CCP is going with the grey area response on your program, not that I believe for a second most people would stop using BACON if CCP told them to.
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Phant Zon
Minmatar No Quarter. Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2008.04.30 03:29:00 -
[981]
The saddest thing about this whole deal is it makes me realize that, despite my own mediocrity at MMO playing, there are hordes out there that make me look freaking elite.
I have played EVE for nearly 3 years now. At least half, if not more, of that time was spent in low-sec and null-sec space. Yet I can count on one hand the number of times I have lost ships to other players when I was not actively out looking for a fight. Think about that.
If you truly feel you need this application you are basically admitting that you are less capable than I. Phant Zon, whose official title is Bibly Herder, who looks like the love child of Mr T and some sort of yet undiscovered sea life. Who regularially flies ships fit in such a fashion as to make every dedicated PVPer incapacitated with laughter. A man whose brains are so scrambled by the vibrations of the righteous dub that composing this short post is a miracle and whose idea of a good time is streaking towards an enemy fleet in something as fragile as a used kleenex, as obvious and visible as a 7 foot African tribesman in the midst of a Klan rally, as devastating as a flurry of punches from a unusually anemic 5 year old girl. I am truly stunned and saddened.
The Bilbies see all. Their anger is righteous. And they shall know no mercy. If gods ye have, look to them now. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo |
Reuser
Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 04:11:00 -
[982]
Originally by: Phant Zon A man whose brains are so scrambled by the vibrations of the righteous dub that composing this short post is a miracle...
Regardless of your intentions, you've got great prose. +1!
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.04.30 04:18:00 -
[983]
This app gave me high cholesterol
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Diek Ran
Amarr Autonums
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Posted - 2008.04.30 05:13:00 -
[984]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin This app gave me high cholesterol
Rather looks to me like adrenaline, you're running around in the forums like mad ;) __________________________________
Originally by: Verlyn
I know it's my own fault, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT!
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.04.30 06:09:00 -
[985]
For the record Reuser, editing your arguments after the fact reflects badly on you.
Originally by: Reuser
Does BACON do that? No, it doesn't. Stick to the topic at hand.
BACON allows auto logoff with one simple modification. I defy you to name another publicly available EVE app that can be used in a similar manner.
Originally by: Reuser
Is a web page that automates the lookup of EVE mineral price information across ALL systems and markets, automatically detecting the system you are in more or less of automation than a system that plays a tone when someone enters a system? Or a skill is trained?
The web page you presented as an example requires manual input to function. You select a region and press a button, it presents the information.
It does not automatically update as you move from system to system - nor does it provide information hooks another program can use.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.30 07:16:00 -
[986]
Quote: BACON allows auto logoff with one simple modification. I defy you to name another publicly available EVE app that can be used in a similar manner.
Plenty of privately available ones as is, according to CCP....what's the damned difference if it's now widespread public knowledge?
CCP admits to other similar proggys being used. What trips my trigger though is the huge outcry that Joe Average now can get the same "level playing field" as the jackasses who use other lame progs.
Props to the peeps who brought this all out into the light, for whatever reasons.
Regardless, despite the aggravation of apparent double standards by some, I was always a rabid anti-remove-local type untill I learned about where these apps (public and private) get there data.
So yeah, get rid of ALL these sorts of meta-gaming proggys by doing whatever it takes.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.04.30 07:18:00 -
[987]
Originally by: Diek Ran
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin This app gave me high cholesterol
Rather looks to me like adrenaline, you're running around in the forums like mad ;)
frantically trying to find a defibrillator thats all
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.30 09:06:00 -
[988]
Reuser's comments are starting to diverge from what this thread is really about.
I think this thread has run its course, and it needs to be locked.
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.04.30 13:29:00 -
[989]
So do I, locked.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang
Hug-A-Wrangler! FanFest 2008
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." |
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