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Wideen
Caldari Eon Project Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:39:00 -
[1]
I've noticed that when you get too close to someone, using lasers you miss basically every shot. It doesn't have to be 0 meters either, just around 500 meters as well.
Why is this so with lasers specifically because I don't seem to get that problem everytime I use other turrets.
This means that it's enough to web you and stick close and they'll be safe to kill you without getting melted.
Anyone have any insight on this matter? Just seems a bit off if this rly is the case.
Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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Umar Khattab
Amarr Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:46:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Wideen I've noticed that when you get too close to someone, using lasers you miss basically every shot. It doesn't have to be 0 meters either, just around 500 meters as well.
Why is this so with lasers specifically because I don't seem to get that problem everytime I use other turrets.
This means that it's enough to web you and stick close and they'll be safe to kill you without getting melted.
Anyone have any insight on this matter? Just seems a bit off if this rly is the case.
With both pulse and beam?
DUDEISM.COM |
Wideen
Caldari Eon Project Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:47:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Umar Khattab
With both pulse and beam?
Sorry forgot to say that this applies to short range turrets, i.e. pulses
Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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RedClaws
Amarr Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:50:00 -
[4]
I thought this was normal? Some kind of game feature.
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Evdoxius
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:51:00 -
[5]
Cant remember exactly the mathematical theory, but it something to do with division and wen u divide by zero u get infinity or zero and so u miss....i think that's it or something to that effect
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Ordon Gundar
Caldari Impending Doom Inc. The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:54:00 -
[6]
The same happens with hybrids. I used rail guns up close and they missed all the time. Its something to do with the tracking I would have thought. If you think about it, if you are close to the enemy ship and you are both orbiting eachother quickly, unless you have got boosted tracking systems you are going to miss alot of the time.
Ordon Gundar - Low Sec Survivalist & CEO of Danger Zone Enterprises |
Umar Khattab
Amarr Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Umar Khattab on 23/04/2008 11:54:29
Originally by: Wideen I've noticed that when you get too close to someone, using lasers you miss basically every shot. It doesn't have to be 0 meters either, just around 500 meters as well.
Why is this so with lasers specifically because I don't seem to get that problem everytime I use other turrets.
This means that it's enough to web you and stick close and they'll be safe to kill you without getting melted.
Anyone have any insight on this matter? Just seems a bit off if this rly is the case.
So basicaly, orbiting laser ships really close means you always win! Awesome!
DUDEISM.COM |
Mariana Benn
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.23 11:56:00 -
[8]
Go to the tracking guide under Player Guides. It will answer your question.
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Kurt Ambrose
Caldari R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:00:00 -
[9]
Its not only lasers i noticed that my Medium AC's dont hit when im at 0 |
Travis Shireen
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:01:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Travis Shireen on 23/04/2008 12:01:51 I've noticed a similar effect out Railguns at 0.0 meters, like your inside the ship or right on top of a stationary target (Wherehouses or stationary ships). I just pull back 5m and the guns start hitting agian. Wierd.
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Elhina Novae
Amarr Stone Shadow Syndicate deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mariana Benn Go to the tracking guide under Player Guides. It will answer your question.
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No even when you are chasing a BS and is sniffin' him from behind you miss alot, even if the Angular Velocity is at 0.0000 |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:04:00 -
[12]
Chance to hit is some kind of multiplier of transversal vs range so getting under zero results in 100% chance to miss or some nonsense. From what I understand this affects all turrets. |
arbalesttom
Caldari Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:07:00 -
[13]
At 0 meters from your target any gun will hit for 0 damage. ***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^ |
Wideen
Caldari Eon Project Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:09:00 -
[14]
that railguns can miss at 0 meters wouldn't surprise me, since they're long range weapons, but I'm talking about close range weapons here, so you'd have to talk about blasters if we're discussing pulses.
Still haven't experienced that I miss with other close range turrets at those distances
Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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Morthis Rygal
Gallente Zero Potential
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:12:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Morthis Rygal on 23/04/2008 12:13:47 Edited by: Morthis Rygal on 23/04/2008 12:12:09 This has nothing to do with tracking or angular velocity. Non missile shots just miss when you're at 0 meters from structures (or do 0 damage, can't remember which). You can really easily test it in the level 4 mission infiltrated outpost. Those two big metal scrap things in the second pocket of the mission are pretty big, so it's easy to be within 0 meters. Try shooting at it from that range and you won't hit a thing.
Quote: Cant remember exactly the mathematical theory, but it something to do with division and wen u divide by zero u get infinity or zero and so u miss....i think that's it or something to that effect
Division by zero is undefined, and a computer program will give an error message if you try to do it. You're thinking of the limit of a division as the denominator approaches 0 (which, if the numerator is not 0, is infinity).
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention Reavers.
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:14:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jin Entres on 23/04/2008 12:14:44 It's the same for all turrets. For example, Mega Pulse II against a target with a signature radius of 400 hits 100% at 0km when transversal is 0 but if transversal is 100m/s, the chance to hit is 0% below 0.75km, 20% at 1.5km, 50% at about 2.4km and only stabilises to 85-95% after 5km. The message is clear: transversal matters even in BS v BS fights, so don't neglect good maneuvering.
Of course, better tracking improves the curve. Neutron blasters with the mega's tracking bonus for example will start hitting after 0.5km, the rising curve being about the same however (and peak being at about 6km due to low optimal range). The crossing point for neutron blasters and mega pulses is 7.5km, so below that mega has the advantage and above that the geddon/abaddon/apoc. Knowing who has the tracking advantage is important to improving the terms of the engagement.
If transversal is 200 m/s, the point of zero damage comes at 1km to the mega and about 1.7km to the pulser. And if we reduce the sig radius to 300, it becomes 1.3km and 2.3km. All in all, what this teaches us is that you should never go that close. Around 5-7km seems to be the optimal distance for large guns, and even if the target is huge like a shield extended rokh, being at that range yields no damage reduction compared to being at 1km, so there is little reason to venture that close. For medium guns you can go closer obviously because optimal is also lower (esp. for blasters) and they track better, but around 2km is good enough.
Of course, you may want to get close to someone just to prevent them from getting away from your web grip. If so, you may sacrifice a bit of tracking. I'd probably advise setting keep distance to 4km in a Mega or similar and 2.5 in a Deimos/Astarte etc. And for pulse users maybe 6-7km (both cruiser and BS sized) normally and 4-5 if it's something that could potentially outcrawl your web. --- CEO
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Yuri Vladomirovic
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:15:00 -
[17]
Maybe this why: Shortest range crystals: 3x optimal, 2x falloff So at 0m, you have only a base chance of 25% to hit with lasers. Add a bit transversal, multiply it with the horrific laser tracking...
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Corwain
Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:18:00 -
[18]
All turrets miss if you're at 0m or close to it. They don't even need to be orbiting (though that helps at short ranges to increase misses, and intended feature). I've MWDed up to ships in my blasterthron, tear through shields, armor, half structure *bump* *miss miss miss*. Then they survive longer in structure than in any other stage. lol -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:31:00 -
[19]
Guys, seriously. Most of those who posted in this topic have definitely never looked at official tracking guide. Please, do - it is one of those essential knowledges of EVE.
You can miss in close ranges for two reasons:
1) The closer you get, the higher your transversal speed at the same linear.
Meaning if you travel 1 km/sec @ 20 km from target, your maximum transversal is 1/20 = 0.05 rad/sec, which your pulse lasers can track easily. But if you do 1 km/sec @ 1 km from your target, your max transversal is 1/1 = 1 rad/sec, which is, IIRC, almost 10 times higher than tracking of your pulse lasers, so your chance to hit will be around 1/2^10 , which a fraction of 1% - so technically you miss every time.
If you are shooting a target that is amaller than your gun sigres, things get even worse.
Get into tracking guide, understand how guns work and use calculator on last page to figure out your optimal speed/range combination.
2) There is a flaw in tracking system in EVE. Your distance to your target can technically be less than zero (you can be INSIDE your target signature radius). Game caps this out to range of 0. Then, when angular velocity is calculated, you get your speed divided by distance, and calculation falis due to division by zero. Game filters this out allright, but calculates this as a miss, and zero damage from missiles too (even though they have no tracking).
There were multiple discussions on this over the years. Some people said that game should have another factor in tracking formula, that changes the way chance to hit is calculated at distances comparable to signature radii of ships or at zero distance.
But apparently this is working as intended. You can consider that when you are extremely close to the object (collision distance) you cant fire, cause its dangerous to your ship or something. Modules dont deactivate, but they dont do the job. Or you can invent any other explanation :)
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Morthis Rygal
Gallente Zero Potential
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:35:00 -
[20]
Quote: 2) There is a flaw in tracking system in EVE. Your distance to your target can technically be less than zero (you can be INSIDE your target signature radius). Game caps this out to range of 0. Then, when angular velocity is calculated, you get your speed divided by distance, and calculation falis due to division by zero. Game filters this out allright, but calculates this as a miss, and zero damage from missiles too (even though they have no tracking).
There were multiple discussions on this over the years. Some people said that game should have another factor in tracking formula, that changes the way chance to hit is calculated at distances comparable to signature radii of ships or at zero distance.
But apparently this is working as intended. You can consider that when you are extremely close to the object (collision distance) you cant fire, cause its dangerous to your ship or something. Modules dont deactivate, but they dont do the job. Or you can invent any other explanation :)
I'm fairly sure missiles still work at 0 range.
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Morthis Rygal I'm fairly sure missiles still work at 0 range.
I wont bet my char on this, but rocket launcher on my jaguar couldnt hit structures in missions, when I was hugging them. Damage dealt was zero each time.
You can check that easily though.
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention Reavers.
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Originally by: Morthis Rygal I'm fairly sure missiles still work at 0 range.
I wont bet my char on this, but rocket launcher on my jaguar couldnt hit structures in missions, when I was hugging them. Damage dealt was zero each time.
You can check that easily though.
On that subject, have they fixed the bug yet whereby missiles deal no damage if warp drive is engaged? --- CEO
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Morthis Rygal
Gallente Zero Potential
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Originally by: Morthis Rygal I'm fairly sure missiles still work at 0 range.
I wont bet my char on this, but rocket launcher on my jaguar couldnt hit structures in missions, when I was hugging them. Damage dealt was zero each time.
You can check that easily though.
On that subject, have they fixed the bug yet whereby missiles deal no damage if warp drive is engaged?
Nope.
And if I get IO I'll try shooting missiles at 0 range.
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Gotrek Gurnisson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:47:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 23/04/2008 12:49:24 Tracking is a none-issue for this problem:
1) Find a stationary target on a cleared mission (E.g. asteroid post);
2) Fly to within 0km of the target;
3) Set your speed to zero. The ship and target are stationary so tracking SHOULD BE irrelevant (though may be bugged for zero km distance).
4) Open Fire. Swear as you miss with every shot.
5) Turn the ship directly away from the target and fly away slowly at 50m/s;
6) Shots will continue to miss until the distance between you and the target once again exceeds zero km.
I can understand targets closer to you have a higher transversal velocity and are therefore harder to hit.
However why should this effect apparently apply if the ship and target are both stationary - just very close together??
Edit: Just read the new post above stating there is a known bug with distances of less than one used in calculations. Answers my question why its happenning anyway
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Asestorian
Domination. Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.23 12:50:00 -
[25]
The reason that all turrets miss at 0km is the way the tracking system works. I don't know the exact maths though. It's essentially a bug, but it's one that can't be fixed unless the entire tracking system was redone. If you ever find yourself at 0 then you just need to move away and things will magically start working again. There's nothing else you can do.
---
Quote: Welcome to EVE, a PvP game where people are - shockingly - allowed to PvP as much as they like.
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.04.23 13:01:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Tracking is a none-issue for this problem
Tracking is ALWAYS an issue. Tracking formula is run everytime the shot is fired, regardless of distances and/or speeds. Its the way this formula deals with zero distance/infinite transversal that is causing the effect.
Yet again, it is weird, but it is working as intended. You cant fire at station right near its wall - you have to be at >0 distance from it, which is REALLY far from the walls of the station (collision).
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.04.23 13:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Tracking is a none-issue for this problem
Tracking is ALWAYS an issue.
What Gotrek meant is that transversal velocity (in fact all movement) is a non-issue. If your range from the target displays as 0m, then the angular velocity gets a divide-by-zero type thing resulting in infinite angular velocity and hence zero chance to hit and so all shots will miss, no matter what other factors may or may not be happening.
Really, this is probably with the bounding boxes on models, with regards to the points at which you are bounced off and the points that count as zero range. You shouldn't be able to get within 0m of an object unless you are actually inside it, but many structures register you as 0m away when you are a good few km from their actual surface. And just to reiterate, it does affect all turrets, of all racial types and of short-range or long-range flavour.
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.04.23 13:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman And just to reiterate, it does affect all turrets, of all racial types and of short-range or long-range flavour.
I just wonder which formula makes missiles do 0 damage. Missile damage doesnt factor in the transversal speeds or ranges whatsoever. Yet they deal 0 damage for some reason. Artificial mechanism, just to even things out for turrets and missiles?
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Gotrek Gurnisson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.23 13:53:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen I just wonder which formula makes missiles do 0 damage. Missile damage doesnt factor in the transversal speeds or ranges whatsoever. Yet they deal 0 damage for some reason. Artificial mechanism, just to even things out for turrets and missiles?
Presumably its explosion velocity versus target velocity - and if the distances are negative the calculation of relative speed falls over?
Target and firer are both usually moving so EVE has to calculate relative speed of missile explosion velocity to the target to calculate damage. Only way to do this accurately is by sampling distance over time immediately before the impact to get an accurate figure (as target speed and direction can change while the missile is in flight). Consequently when the missile 'hits' and the relative speeds calculated it gets a divide by zero error due to zero relative distance travelled by the missile and target?
Pure speculation on my part......
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Wideen
Caldari Eon Project Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.04.23 13:56:00 -
[30]
thanks for all the replies guys, makes me feel better tbh since I was so afraid that lasers were the only turrets gimped in this way.
Made me terrified that even a frig (disregarding drones) could web my bs/bc/cruiser, get at 0 meters and just patiently kill me slowly, hence I raised this point.
Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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