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voetius
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Posted - 2008.04.29 12:48:00 -
[1]
final question of the day
I have 3 rigging slots on my Kestrel but where do I get rigging from? The item database has some interesting rigs but no prices. I did check the guides sticky above (sorry if I missed it) and did a search that got 1000's of hits but nothing like "Noob's Guide to Rigging and where to get it"
cheers...
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.04.29 12:52:00 -
[2]
You can buy them off the market - they're in the "Ship Modifications" top-level section.
However, given their prices (cheap ones are a few million, the average price for a decent rig is probably around 15 mil or so) it is almost certainly not cost-effective to fit them to a frigate.
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Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:00:00 -
[3]
Rigs are built mostly with the salvage you get from salvaging wrecks.
If there's a rig you want, you could buy the blue print - which is fairly cheap - collect the salvage and build your own.
It takes a good bit of time to collect the Salvage for one and they are worth a lot of ISK so putting them on a frigate probably is a waste.
One thing about rigs is that they can not be removed intact. Removing a rig, just like removing an implant destroys it.
So you can have them removed if you want to put a better one in that spot or don't like the down side that comes with all rigs (read their show info to see what the trade offs are for installing them) but it is going to destroy them when you do that.
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voetius
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:06:00 -
[4]
oh well - scratch that then. I'll do some more research in the ship fitting thread when I'm a bit closer to upgrading to a cruiser.
cheers...
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman ...it is almost certainly not cost-effective to fit them to a frigate.
...and...
Originally by: Candice Bormardin It takes a good bit of time to collect the Salvage for one and they are worth a lot of ISK so putting them on a frigate probably is a waste.
...are very good points, but can be taken with a grain of salt.
For example, the best "Salvaging Ship" is undoubtedly a small, fast frigate, which benefits from being hard to track by Battlecruisers and above, so why would this be a bad candidate for a a rig?
Yes, it is true that rigs are expensive to buy from the Market. It is also true that salvaging to build rigs is an investment in time. However, if you have a specific purpose for your ship(s), rigging them is a benefit that shouldn't be overlooked.
There's a quote I read here a long time ago where a Pilot said, "My ship isn't complete until I've rigged her."
Anything that gives you an advantage, especially one that might not be readily expected, should be considered. Does it make sense to invest multiple millions of ISK in a frigate that cost only thousands? Maybe not, however, if you have a specific purpose in mind, and loads of ISK or time to invest, it's the choice you have to make.
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Tzar'rim
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:42:00 -
[6]
I'd never rig normal frigs. Specialised ones like covops, E-war and inties I might, but that's about it.
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Frida Frogger
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman However, given their prices (cheap ones are a few million, the average price for a decent rig is probably around 15 mil or so) it is almost certainly not cost-effective to fit them to a frigate.
I certainly do agree. But the OP point is valid however, there should be a reason to rig frigates, as they have one rigging slot. So why does not CCP make a cheap alternative to frigate rigging? maybe remake some blueprint (only frigate) so it costs only the a little cheap junk, and not expensive junk.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:52:00 -
[8]
a) buy kestrel b) fit polycarbons c) ??? d) profit!
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Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:12:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Candice Bormardin on 29/04/2008 16:12:39
As to rigging small, special purpose ships.
Yes - if you've got a reason to do it and the money - then it's your call.
For example, some people like to put salvaging rigs on Destroyers - which otherwise wouldn't be a likely candidate for investing that kind of money in. But - if your Salvager Destroyer is going to MAKE you a ton of money through the Salvage you harvest with it - yeah that makes sense.
However, as a general rule, given that small ships tend to be treated as being disposable while rigs are not - it's something you'd really want to think about before doing.
Even Cruisers are probably to small to warrant putting a rig on.
Any time you're thinking about putting a piece of equipment on a ship that costs multiple times what the ship itself costs, you probably want to really think about it before you do it. Unless of course you've got billions of ISK to throw away ... in which case - do whatever you want with it.
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malcotch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.29 18:01:00 -
[10]
I found it useful fitting a Projectile Collision Accelerator rig to a Rifter. I had been experimenting with a damage tank. i.e. just fitting modules etc that increase the damage you can do!
I find it best to manufacture the rig and you can effectively do it for free!
Get a blueprint for the Rig you want and check what materials you need. Create buy orders to purchase enough materials to manufacture 2 rigs. I like to set a price just above any other buy orders, but set the buy range to as many jumps as you can from a central station, that avoids any buy orders occurring in lo-sec systems. After about a week, you'll find that the buy orders should be complete. Manufacture the 2 rigs, fit one and sell the other for about double the material cost! You can check the market for the rig you plan to manufacture and find an optimum price for your buy orders to ensure you can double your purchase price. You'll be surprised how cheaply you can buy some of the materials, if you have set up the buy range correctly, as some salvagers just want quick sales!
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Ghicolas Naspard
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Posted - 2008.04.29 18:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: malcotch ... I find it best to manufacture the rig and you can effectively do it for free! ...
Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't make it free.
It is this kind of attitude which has caused the current situation in manufacturing where, even someone with good production skills, cannot build and produce anything at a profit, as the people who mine their own minerals to build modules to sell seem to think that the materials were 'free' because they didnt have to pay for them, so they vastly undercut prices so that in the end they are actually selling the items for less than they would get simply selling the minerals!
Sorry for the rant, I just hate seeing people saying this.
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malcotch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.04.29 19:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ghicolas Naspard
Originally by: malcotch ... I find it best to manufacture the rig and you can effectively do it for free! ...
Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't make it free.
It is this kind of attitude which has caused the current situation in manufacturing where, even someone with good production skills, cannot build and produce anything at a profit, as the people who mine their own minerals to build modules to sell seem to think that the materials were 'free' because they didnt have to pay for them, so they vastly undercut prices so that in the end they are actually selling the items for less than they would get simply selling the minerals!
Sorry for the rant, I just hate seeing people saying this.
This was not meant to cause offense, I realise nothing is for free.
But I wanted to point out there are other ways of looking at things and manufacturing was another option. If you can end up with a rig and your wallet balance remains the same from where you started then that must be a good option! Obviously if you sold both rigs you would increase your balance!
Mining minerals and manufacturing modules is different, as costing the time spent mining has to be taken into account.
Some rigs are priced at 4 to 5x the material cost, which does not make any sense. I tend to try to make a 40% margin and sell more regularly!
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Dark Kisaragi
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:08:00 -
[13]
I only Just Found out what the Rigging and Upgrade slots were for this morning. ive only been playing for 5 days now im subscribed. (loving every moment of EVE)
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Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:32:00 -
[14]
The fact of the matter is - salvage materials and ore are free.
The issue isn't whether or not your materials are free - the issue is how you use those materials.
Some may argue that you have costs associated with your efforts but that doesn't mean that the basic materials themselves aren't free.
Unless you are an ISK farmer - you are not getting paid to play EVE. EVE is a game you play for fun but also to occupy your time. So your personal time investment doesn't count.
Your character isn't being paid a salary, probably. So there is no in game cost to your time.
There are any number of things you might do with your time playing EVE and some might produce more ISK than others but what ultimately counts is whether or not you enjoyed the time you spent playing whether you made any ISK or not.
Then their is the ISK you've spent on your ship.
But - Rookie ships are free. So you do not have a base cost. You can get as many rookie ships as you want by simply flying in your pod to a base you don't have a ship at and one will be given to you FREE OF CHARGE. Also, the basic equipment on a rookie ship is free. If you want more of it, all you have to do is repeatedly assemble and repackage the same ship. Each time you repackage it the rookie gun and miner will go into your personal hangar. Each time you assemble it - it will assemble with a NEW Basic Miner and Civilian Gun. So all of this is free.
If you do spend ISK on your ship to help you mine better - what that ISK buys you is an increase in the speed with which you can mine. So - what you're paying for is not the ability to mine but the ability to mine faster.
Only if you pay for the materials you use do they cost you anything. If you mine and salvage on your own - the materials you acquire by doing so are in fact free.
Once you've manufactured something - what you could have sold the ore for is irrelevant. You now have this item you made and the ONLY way you are going to sell it is to underbid the other people selling the same thing.
So - bemoaning the fact that people are selling items for below what they could have sold the raw ore for is simply whining.
If you enjoyed the process of mining and manufacturing things, then you got what you are paying your monthly fee for. If you didn't - then you should have done something else.
What I get sick of, is people coming on the forums and stating that the materials aren't free - when they are.
Just because there may well be a more profitable way of using them does not effect their cost.
If you want to complain about people not making as much money as they could by simply selling the ore - that is a factual complaint - but deriding people for thinking that the materials are free - when in fact THEY ARE FREE - is a factual error.
The fact that these people are ruining your profit margins is ... well ... just to bad. Having other people do things you don't like is simply part of EVE. You might not also like the fact that some people play pirates and steal your stuff but complaining about that is going to do you just as much good.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.30 03:43:00 -
[15]
Obtaining the materials might be "free" (if you don't take into account the time taken....but that's a whole other argument).
It's what you do with them that determines how much you make.
For instance: going and mining minerals which could be sold on the market for 100 ISK, but instead spending another 10 ISK to turn it into something that you sell for 90 ISK doesn't make sense (your profit is 80 ISK). Why not sell the minerals for 100 ISK and your profit is 100 ISK.
Selling items for less than mineral cost is just stooopid, but enough people do it to make mining obsolete for me. (I've probably cut out some of my market with that statement, but hey, there's enough out there for me to share and still profit. Perfect refine skills aren't that common).
So please keep mining and manufacturing and selling at below mineral cost. I'll keep buying and refining.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University. |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka For instance: going and mining minerals which could be sold on the market for 100 ISK, but instead spending another 10 ISK to turn it into something that you sell for 90 ISK doesn't make sense (your profit is 80 ISK). Why not sell the minerals for 100 ISK and your profit is 100 ISK.
And to make this even more blindingly obvious:
Step 1) You mine the 100ISK worth of minerals. Your assets have now increased by 100ISK (in exchange for nothing but your time) so your profit for this step is 100 ISK. Step 2) You pay 10 ISK to convert these minerals into, say a Passive Targeter that sells for 90 ISK. You gain 90 ISK worth of assets at the cost of 10 ISK manufacturing fees + 100 ISK worth of minerals = 110 ISK. Your profit for this step is -20 ISK.
Step 1 is fine and good, you are making a profit. Step 2 is just plain bad as you are losing money, and the better choice would be to just have sold the minerals outright. The reason this still actually happens is that if you look at steps 1 & 2 as a single process, you can see that you make 80 ISK at the end of it and thus conclude it is a profitable activity. To a certain extent this is true - but considering that the second step actually loses you money, and is in no way necessary (you can stop perfectly happily after the first), it would be crazy to do this.
This isn't specific to mining and building modules, of course. The exact same principles apply to salvaging and building rigs (and unfortunately, the same amount of people who ignore it and sell rigs for below mineral cost).
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Spud Gunn
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Posted - 2008.04.30 12:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin What I get sick of, is people coming on the forums and stating that the materials aren't free - when they are.
Just because there may well be a more profitable way of using them does not effect their cost.
ITT: People fail at economics.
If you spend two hours mining "free" minerals, what is the cost to you:
1) Nothing? or 2) Whatever you could have made doing something else in those two hours?
Just because your wallet balance hasn't gone down doesn't mean you're any less out of pocket. Naturally this is irrelevant if you're actually good at mining (in which case you should do that), but if you're missioning with some mining/salvage on the side for "free materials" your time would be much better spent doing what you're good at.
Feel free to disregard if you actually find mining to be an enjoyable pursuit and are quite happy being out of pocket for the fun of seeing asteroids go pop |
Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Spaceways
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 30/04/2008 20:21:50
Originally by: Candice Bormardin The fact of the matter is - salvage materials and ore are free.
The term "opportunity cost" refers to the concept that the cost of a decision is at least equal to the gain you would achieve with the next best option. So, if you have a hundred alloyed tritanium bars (which you could sell for about 550k each) and you make some rigs out of them (just an example, i have no idea how many you need to make a rig) those rigs cost you 55 million ISK. This is not an imaginary concept dreamed up by b-school professors. Salvage and ore are NOT free.
---------------- I'm looking for a good corp to join. |
Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Spaceways
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Spud Gunn ITT: People fail at economics.
What does "ITT" stand for? Wikipedia's internet slang reference doesn't list it, and other sites list both "I think that" and "In this thread"... I fail at internet slang.
---------------- I'm looking for a good corp to join. |
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:50:00 -
[20]
The shield resistance rigs go for around 2 mil, so if there's a gaping hole in a particular resistance that you can't fix with a module, it's not too cost-ineffective to use a shield rig. They do increase signature radius quite a bit though (more than a T2 SSE at least, I think.)
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Billy Sastard
Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.01 14:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Spud Gunn ITT: People fail at economics.
What does "ITT" stand for? Wikipedia's internet slang reference doesn't list it, and other sites list both "I think that" and "In this thread"... I fail at internet slang.
In This Topic or In This Thread. -=^=-
My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep. |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.01 20:35:00 -
[22]
It's like this:
If you don't pay money for it - it is free.
As to what you MIGHT have done with the time you spent on it - see my comment on this being a game. Part of the purpose of a GAME is to have fun but another part is to give you something to do.
Now here - you MIGHT have gone out on a date with a super model instead of playing EVE. So - does the fact that you mined some asteroids mean that the cost of those asteroids was a date with a super model?
No.
Just because you MIGHT have done something else is irrelevant to the COST of the asteroids you mined.
This in no way invalidates the statements as to how you may have used your time more efficiently.
BUT - just because you may have had some other method of spending your time that would have earned you more ISK in no way increases the cost of the materials.
Yes - you may have Lost an opportunity to do something MORE profitable.
Yes - you may have just sold the ore and made more money.
But neither of those opportunities effects the fact that the cost of the rocks was Zero ISK.
IF this were real life and IF you took time off from your job as a stock broker where you were making $1000 an hour to save yourself a $40 car repair bill THEN you did Sacrifice the earning of maybe $3000 to save $40. BUT - if this were real life and you fixed your car on the weekend - when you weren't getting paid $1000 an hour - THEN you saved yourself $40 and didn't lose anything. Lots of guys LIKE working on their cars. I for one, at one time, got an immense amount of satisfaction from taking a roughly running engine on my '69 Camaro and just making that baby purr. So here - I not only saved myself the cost of PAYING SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT - but I had fun too.
As I have mentioned elsewhere - this is a game. There are any number of aspects to this game and you can't really know what you're going to enjoy doing until you've fooled around with it.
So - if you go out and mine some and manufacture some and trade some - you're learning all the while. Maybe you'll get good enough at it to REALLY make some money at it and maybe you'll decide you'd rather do something else. Either way - you were playing the game the entire time.
The Base Cost of this was ZERO.
From this activity you gained knowledge and probably made some money.
So - it didn't COST you anything.
You may well have made a larger NET PROFIT through some other activity as it does cost you something to refine, manufacture and sell your products - but this does not change the fact that the base materials were themselves free.
Throwing around economic jargon may make you sound like you know what you're talking about - but in doesn't change the fact that THE ROCKS ARE FREE. There is a reason that people do not trust anything Economists say - and this is an example. A chance to have made more money doing something else - IS NOT A COST. It is a lost opportunity but it is not a COST. If you had to pay 50 ISK to the gate keeper at the asteroid belt - that would be a COST. Since you don't - there isn't one. Just because you could have put MORE money in your wallet by doing something else - DOES NOT MEAN - that you TOOK MONEY OUT OF YOUR WALLET to mine.
Whether you could have made more ISK by selling the raw ore or not mining them at all - does not change the fact that no one charged you anything extra to go out there and mine.
You pay about $15 a month to CCP to do whatever you want in this game. You are charged that money whether you sit in your hanger spinning your ship or go down to 0.0 for a war. That cost is the price you pay to log in. What you do after that - may or may not cost you something else in ISK.
If you buy a ship or a box of ammo - that costs you something.
If you buy a skill book - that costs you something.
If you take your rookie ship out there and mine some rocks - that COSTS you nothing.
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Lord Haur
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.01 21:11:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Lord Haur on 01/05/2008 21:11:39 on the "but minerals i mine are free..." arguement:
TIME=MONEY Therefore, the worth of the mins you mine are directly proportional to the time you spent mining them.
/End arguement
--- Sig Starts Here --- Lord Haur - Imperial Academy Logistical Support
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Inertial
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.05.02 08:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin
Person who fails in economics rants stupidly, reinforcing my belief that said person is stupid.
ehhhhhhh...
Despite the fact that your cost of operation is 0, you still loose isk.
Those people who use the "You could spend you time doing something else" arguement are wrong. That is not what this is about. What it is about is the fact that: 100 tritanium is 360 ISK (if we assume 1 trit at 3.6 isk).
If you choose to build something for 100 tritanium and sell it at 100 isk, you have lost 260 isk. Likewise, if you mine 100 veldespar and creates a module with it, that you then fit on you ship, you have actually still used 360 isk to fit the module to you ship. It is irrelevant wether or not the Veldespar was mined at no cost of operation.
So it all boils down to a choice really. Do you want to go trough the manufacturing process or do you want to skip straight to the "Fit you module to your ship" part. Both cost the same. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.02 10:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin Whether you could have made more ISK by selling the raw ore or not mining them at all - does not change the fact that no one charged you anything extra to go out there and mine.
Neither does it change the fact that the items now in your possesion have a certain value. If somebody GIVES you a Golem in-game, do you go selling it for 50 mil ISK and say to yourself "wow, I just made a 50 mil ISK profit" ?!?
Quote: IF this were real life and IF you took time off from your job as a stock broker where you were making $1000 an hour to save yourself a $40 car repair bill THEN you did Sacrifice the earning of maybe $3000 to save $40. BUT - if this were real life and you fixed your car on the weekend - when you weren't getting paid $1000 an hour - THEN you saved yourself $40 and didn't lose anything. Lots of guys LIKE working on their cars. I for one, at one time, got an immense amount of satisfaction from taking a roughly running engine on my '69 Camaro and just making that baby purr. So here - I not only saved myself the cost of PAYING SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT - but I had fun too.
If it was real-life, and you took one ounce of gold, made a paper weight out of it, and sold it for 100 bucks, you just LOST 700-900$.
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Billy Sastard
Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.02 14:36:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Akita T
If it was real-life, and you took one ounce of gold, made a paper weight out of it, and sold it for 100 bucks, you just LOST 700-900$.
This right here is the point I was trying to get across with my 'fixing the car' analogy. The point is that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of people selling those paperweights in mass quantities on the market in EVE right now, and competing with each other to drive their prices even lower! If they would just step back and actually LOOK at what they were doing they would realize that they could get more for their minerals by simply selling them!
Yea its a game and people can do whatever they want, it is just too bad that so many people have their ideas so screwed around backwards and have borked things up. |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.02 14:40:00 -
[27]
Congratulations to all the people who fail at the English language.
Time = Time. Money = Money.
They are NOT the same thing.
Time can be invested in something which can be turned into money - but one is not the other.
Time = Money is a simplism.
Just because people say it a lot does not make it true.
Economics Fails at reality. The purpose of Economics is to set up profit/loss models to be used in forecasting what an economy is going to do. As such it is an artificial system that lumps things together into those two categories - profit - and loss but this does not reflect the real world.
As to the term Opportunity Cost:
"Opportunity cost is the cost (sacrifice) incurred by choosing one option over an alternative one that may be equally desired. Thus, opportunity cost is the cost of pursuing one choice instead of another. Every action has an opportunity cost. ... Opportunity cost is not restricted to monetary or financial costs: the real cost of output forgone, lost time, pleasure or any other benefit that provides utility should also be considered.
Opportunity cost is a key concept in economics because it implies the choice between desirable, yet mutually exclusive results. It has been described as expressing "the basic relationship between scarcity and choice.
The total opportunity costs of ... an action can never be known with certainty (and are sometimes called "hidden costs" or "hidden losses", what has been prevented from being produced cannot be seen or known). Even the possibility of inaction is a lost opportunity ..."
Your problem here is that "opportunity cost" and actual cost - ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
One is a term used in an artificial system - the other is money out of your wallet.
If you paid someone 100 ISK for something - it cost you 100 ISK. That is a hard and fast COST.
What you MIGHT have done with the time you spent getting that 100 ISK, other than what you did do, is pure speculation. Maybe you would have made more money and maybe some pirate would have blown up your ship and podded you.
Failed Gain and Loss are also NOT THE SAME THING Akita.
A value can be ascribed to items but that value is not the same as their cost. An items Value varies with the POV of the individual. For one person a thing may have a great deal of utility even though they could not sell the item for anything. For another person or another item, the item may have no utility but they can sell it for quite a bit. Both are measures of the items value.
If someone gave you a Golem and you sold it for 50mil ISK then since it cost you nothing - yes you made a 50 million ISK profit. However, if you had waited an hour and could have then sold it for 55mil ISK - does that mean that you LOST 5 million ISK? No. It means you failed to gain an additional 5 million. You still made 50 million. You didn't LOSE anything.
Cost is what you PAID for something, nothing more, nothing less.
The Asteroids are free. Your time is free. Your basic mining equipment is free.
Even if you invest in better equipment to mine more ore faster, the materials you are mining are still free.
This is a question of the literal meaning of words people.
Several of you seem to be so caught up in applying some theory you learned in a college class to a computer game that you've lost sight of a few things.
No matter what you say - you aren't paying anything for the rocks you mined.
The statement "The Rocks are Free" is literally true. All the obfuscation you care to throw at it with something you spent 3 hours a week studying for a semester - or even 4 years getting a degree in - doesn't change that simple fact.
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Billy Sastard
Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.02 14:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Candice Bormardin Congratulations etc...
Well, all that doesn't stop us all from being unhappy with that fact that people who think like you have screwed up any chance of making any kind of actual profit from manufacturing! Yea, OK, the ore is free, the minerals are free, yada yada yada.
This does not reverse the fact that there are people (maybe you are one of them) who sell the items they produced at a considerably lower price than if they had simply sold the minerals at current prices! |
Candice Bormardin
Caldari Jouvulen Enterprises Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.02 15:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Billy Sastard
Originally by: Candice Bormardin Congratulations etc...
Well, all that doesn't stop us all from being unhappy with that fact that people who think like you have screwed up any chance of making any kind of actual profit from manufacturing! Yea, OK, the ore is free, the minerals are free, yada yada yada.
This does not reverse the fact that there are people (maybe you are one of them) who sell the items they produced at a considerably lower price than if they had simply sold the minerals at current prices!
Yes.
This is absolutely true and sometimes I am one of those people - and sometimes I'm not.
Here - I and perhaps others are learning and in the process of learning ... we foul up your profit margins.
*shrug*
Like I said the first time I mentioned this ... that's just the way it goes. You don't have to like it - I don't blame you for not liking it but it's just part of the game.
I for one don't like getting podded by pirates who've been playing the game longer than I have, thus having better ships and more skill points - but there isn't anything I can do about it.
As I also pointed out earlier, part of the problem here for someone who manufactures something is that - once you've made the thing - you don't have any choice but to either hold onto it hoping the market will improve - or underbid everyone else - if you want to sell it.
*shrug*
As I've improved my knowledge of the whole mining, producing, selling process I've learned a lot and now have a better idea of what I can sell for the most money but I still have a good deal to learn.
Up until now, I've been happy to have figured out how to make things, research the blue prints and get something at all for them.
The thing is ... while I may learn when to manufacture something and when not to there will always be new people coming along who are also trying to learn the game.
There will also always be people who one way or another got a bunch of stuff that they are determined to sell in the immediate future - and who will just keep driving the price down until they've sold all their stuff.
Of course here - you can look at this as an opportunity if you like - and have the money to do something about it. If these people's items are so far below the cost of their minerals - you can buy them out and either reprocess the items or sell them yourself at a higher price.
Another factor though is that there are people who are trying to manipulate the markets to keep prices high. I am not one of those people. I am happy to be getting a reasonable price for my items and moving my product. I have had market manipulators buy me out time and again because of this relationship. Here, once I had determined that I was in fact selling my items for more than the value of their minerals - I was more than happy to serve as these guy's supplier. In the recent shuttle flail I made millions selling shuttles to people who were speculating on the price of Trit and of Shuttles themselves. What the heck they were going to do with all those shuttles I sold them I've no idea. But as long as they were willing to pay me more than what I thought the market price would settle on - I was happy to keep cranking them out.
Eh ...
There's a progression here, where at first someone is just happy to have made something but later it takes more for them to be satisfied with what they've done. I remember the first time I made a shuttle it was like "Ooooh! I made a space ship!!!"
Once that wears off and the first small production runs will do it, then you start really looking at your total production costs and making decisions about what it is you want to make and how much of it.
*shrug*
My problem is that I come from a back ground as a historian and engineer where words have specific meanings. People commonly throw words loosely about, mouthing what others have said with scant attention paid to the real meaning of what they are saying. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.02 16:19:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/05/2008 16:22:48
Originally by: Candice Bormardin If someone gave you a Golem and you sold it for 50mil ISK then since it cost you nothing - yes you made a 50 million ISK profit. However, if you had waited an hour and could have then sold it for 55mil ISK - does that mean that you LOST 5 million ISK? No. It means you failed to gain an additional 5 million. You still made 50 million. You didn't LOSE anything.
And you accuse us of twisting the meaning of the words ? Fine, let's have it your way then.
Since you can't possibly claim everything has no value whatsoever (and therefore that there is no such thing as cost or profit, or any economy for that matter, and everything is somehow "free"), because that would pretty much mean you're bat**** insane, I will assume we can safely go about assesing VALUE to some object in terms of money... in this particular case (of EVE, the game), ISK.
Now, would you have INSURED and BLOWN UP that Golem, you would have gained close to 175 mil ISK. However, you sold it for 50 mil. You claim 50 mil profit, I claim you just lost AT LEAST 125 mil for absolutely no good reason. Heck, if you even bothered to put it up for sale for 500, 600 or even 700 mil, it would have eventually sold. So, realistically, you have actually thrown away the possibility to make an easy extra 550-650 mil ISK. Now, would you have put it up for sale for 5 bil ISK, nobody would have bought it, and therefore I CAN'T possibly claim you lost 4.995 bil ISK. But I can claim you lost the equivalent of whatever you could have (easily) gotten for it over the value you sold it for.
IF you want to run a charitable organisation, then be my guest, sell everything for 1 ISK, from minerals, shuttles, battleships or officer modules for all I care. But then turn around and claim you made a profit, and I will call you either crazy, or an idiot.
EVERYTHING has a certain value. That value is whatever you could get for it. Now, depending on how FAST you need the value "liquefied" into ISK, you might be willing to offer some level of discount. As long as you're aware of what it is, a dip into your profits for the sake of convenience, all is fine. Just never ever confuse income/revenue with profit.
Or... to put it in even simpler terms.
Paper money and coin have no other value than the fact people perceive it as having value. For all intents and purposes, a coin or a bill is nearly worthless. Now, say you need a quarter in order to get a soda from a vending machine that only takes quarters. You have none. I have two. You give me a dollar bill, and I give you two quarters... that's our agreement. You just lost 50 cents. But you got what you wanted, a soda (worth a quarter, and an extra quarter to be used as anything else). That doesn't change the fact you just LOST 50 cents.
Items in EVE (be it ships, minerals or whatever) are no different than real-world money in this particular aspect. They are worth as much ISK as people would usually pay for them. You might need ISK fast, so you are willing to take a loss to get rid of unwanted inventory. Just don't go around pretending you made a profit when you actually took a willing loss.
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