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Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:44:00 -
[1]
sorry, to properly explain the topic: When im in an inty, and i need to orbit at 23km to still scram, but avoid neuts... or orbit at 500meters to stay under gunfire tracking, or orbit at 11km to avoid webs... why am i flying way out at 16km when im tryin gto orbit at 10. or cruising way out at 30km when im tryin gto scramble at 24km...
ok i know its cause of speed and momentum, i also am pretty sure it would be a lot of math for the game to analyze the correct max speed to stay at __km
so, don't get me wrong im not trying to tear a strip out of anyone, but if its possible at all.. please, let my ship orbit at 23km when i tell it to, make it sort out its max orbiting speed that it can sustain while oriting 23km... if my inty can go 10km per second, but can only sustain the 23km orbit by goign 8.3km please make it do so.
anyways, i agree, it'd probably be a pain in the arse to fix that, but i think all of us pod pilots would appreciate it. Thanks Andy _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Archillius maximus
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:13:00 -
[2]
/signed |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:24:00 -
[3]
The orbit would need to be adaptive...
The system would readjust if you stay ouf of range. It would be a trial and error system.
The bad part of the orbit not holding is for my inties with guns. 1/ I get off my optimal 2/ My base orbit distance ends inside 13 km while I only want to orbit at like 14-15 3/ It causes either that I loose locks, it deactivates disruptor, I get in and out of (overheated) web range while I just wanted to stay at some distance.
Ps : you could have made just one thread about orbit issues.
-- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:31:00 -
[4]
zomg loosing lock is my primary gripe about orbit!!!, especially with the recent changes to intys, but all while not changing their lock range. (please also look at adding like 20% to all inty ranges :D you people would be gods :P)
sorry for having two subject on orbits, i just felt they were special enough to have their own threads _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:39:00 -
[5]
Well, at least the effect is predictable. If you set at 5km, and end up orbiting at 7km, every time you set orbit at 5km, you will orbit at 7km.
Do what everyone else I know has done - undock, and use a turret to get your orbit right for your speed. Make note of it.
What I would recommend is being able to store values for orbit - having to type in "7500" orbit distance every time is very annoying, especially in combat.
-- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
What I would recommend is being able to store values for orbit - having to type in "7500" orbit distance every time is very annoying, especially in combat.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=760417
already made a thread on that as well _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Zartach Tzarszh
Minmatar The Royal Engineers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Andreya sorry, to properly explain the topic: When im in an inty, and i need to orbit at 23km to still scram, but avoid neuts... or orbit at 500meters to stay under gunfire tracking, or orbit at 11km to avoid webs... why am i flying way out at 16km when im tryin gto orbit at 10. or cruising way out at 30km when im tryin gto scramble at 24km...
ok i know its cause of speed and momentum, i also am pretty sure it would be a lot of math for the game to analyze the correct max speed to stay at __km
so, don't get me wrong im not trying to tear a strip out of anyone, but if its possible at all.. please, let my ship orbit at 23km when i tell it to, make it sort out its max orbiting speed that it can sustain while oriting 23km... if my inty can go 10km per second, but can only sustain the 23km orbit by goign 8.3km please make it do so.
anyways, i agree, it'd probably be a pain in the arse to fix that, but i think all of us pod pilots would appreciate it. Thanks Andy
Stop your H4xor MWD and you will see that it actually does exactly what it says on the tin.
Adding speed your agility needs to come up to compensate for that, since there usually is 500% more speed than agility added to a ship (eg mwd etc) the balance between the two are thrown off.
Hence the behaviour you refer to.
Know your ship 101 ; experiment with speed/mass/agility modules on the test server to see how your ship will behave with your Tranq mods/implants and you will get your answers.
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Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.04.29 15:49:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zartach Tzarszh
Stop your H4xor MWD and you will see that it actually does exactly what it says on the tin.
Know your ship 101 ; experiment with speed/mass/agility modules on the test server to see how your ship will behave with your Tranq mods/implants and you will get your answers.
Module or not equipped, if it says 'orbit' at 10km i want to orbit at 10km, these are spaceships, not go-karts. in theory with the technology available im sure they can sort out the math and correct speed to get me to my preferred orbit range _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Zartach Tzarszh
Minmatar The Royal Engineers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Andreya
Originally by: Zartach Tzarszh
Stop your H4xor MWD and you will see that it actually does exactly what it says on the tin.
Know your ship 101 ; experiment with speed/mass/agility modules on the test server to see how your ship will behave with your Tranq mods/implants and you will get your answers.
Module or not equipped, if it says 'orbit' at 10km i want to orbit at 10km, these are spaceships, not go-karts. in theory with the technology available im sure they can sort out the math and correct speed to get me to my preferred orbit range
Read the rest of my post.
And now apply logical thought!
Ok ...
This is the PENALTY for speeding up, due to the AGILITY vs VELOCITY modifiers being off beat by A LOT
Add agility to your ship, (Inertia Stabilizers (Warning add sig radius so mess up a ceptor)) and you will see you will again be closer to the real orbit speed. Your MWD makes you go too fast for the ship to be able to fly in a perfect circle so it will slack off more if you add more velocity.
It is not broken.
Test, learn and apply that to your skillset. This is one of the few things that sets a good pilot out from teh rabble rabble who play wow too much and rely on pressing buttons and having everything done for them.
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Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:19:00 -
[10]
your oblivious to the point. first off.. it would make sense if the ship flew at full speed and tried to keep its cloests orbit, or if the ship stayed at the designated orbit at whatever speed it can handle the orbit at... what your suggesting is full of variables. there is no reason a ship if told to orbit at 15km (with a ships max speed of 10km per second) shoudl orbit at 18km goign 8km persecond... you speaking of agility and mass and all that jazz is fine and all.. but i didnt ask my ship to orbit at 18 and a sub max speed, i want 15km and whatever speed it sustain a 15km orbit at.
dont bother trolling _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
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Zartach Tzarszh
Minmatar The Royal Engineers
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Posted - 2008.04.29 16:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Andreya your oblivious to the point. first off.. it would make sense if the ship flew at full speed and tried to keep its cloests orbit, or if the ship stayed at the designated orbit at whatever speed it can handle the orbit at... what your suggesting is full of variables. there is no reason a ship if told to orbit at 15km (with a ships max speed of 10km per second) shoudl orbit at 18km goign 8km persecond... you speaking of agility and mass and all that jazz is fine and all.. but i didnt ask my ship to orbit at 18 and a sub max speed, i want 15km and whatever speed it sustain a 15km orbit at.
dont bother trolling
There is no troll to be seen in EVE, i am saying you are wrong in how the game mechanics work.
The reason why the button does not exactly do what you want is due to these mechanics. And to be honest i like the fact that it is "something to figure out" in stead of a default "press button, wait" function.
EVE is a difficult game with some awesome features, and this behaviour is one of them. You will need to do some brainwork to figure out when and how to influence your ship to do what you want.
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Blue Disk
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zartach Tzarszh This is the PENALTY for speeding up, due to the AGILITY vs VELOCITY modifiers being off beat by A LOT
Zartach, I don't think he is saying that he should be able to go full speed AND orbit at that distance. He is saying that the ship should slow down to whatever speed is appropriate. For example:
Imagine a ship that does 100m/s, with a MWD that boosts me it to 500m/s. Suppose that, to orbit at 1000 meters, the ship is only agile enough to sustain 378.25m/s. The feature request is that, if the user clicks "orbit at 1000 meters" then Eve will automatically adjust the speed to 378.25m/s. The request is not for the ability to orbit at 1000 meters at 500m/s, since the ship is not agile enough for that.
This isn't an unreasonable request, and it is certainly something that a futuristic space ship should be able to do. So the question is, is it an intentional game mechanic that the pilot must manually determine what speed and orbit settings are required for each orbit they want to make? Or is it a bug? Or just that the client software doesn't do the calculations correctly?
I just tested something out: No matter how slow you go, Eve never orbits at the distance you requested. I just used a frigate to try and orbit an object at 1000 meters, going at only 30m/s. It still orbits at about 1100 meters, no matter how slowly I fly. My guess is that Eve is orbiting in a "reactionary" way by doing something like "oh, I'm too far, and heading the wrong way ... now adjust the flight path..." instead of calculating the correct angle to rotate and maintaining that. So it looks to me like the system is flawed, and adjusting the speed will never get the correct orbit. I bet this is just a bug, that maybe has become an expectation on the part of the pilot.
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Redd Lenses
Gallente Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:53:00 -
[13]
Also sometimes you have variable speeds. IE your gang leader gets popped... suddenly your speed has changed... or a claymore enters gang... suddenly your speed has changed. Manually going through and testing different orbits at different speeds with different skills and different leadership would be so time consuming it would be ridiculous.
/signed
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Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc. Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:12:00 -
[14]
I do agree that the ship should be "smart" enough to adjust max speed to maintain the orbit selected. However, the fact that it does not work this way, and that it takes some effort on the part of the pilot to maintain the correct orbit, adds a variable that makes fights more unpredictable/fun.
I have both lost targets, and myself escaped, when proper scram range was not maintained.
So, to keep fights interesting, I'm saying "no" to this one.
---- Train more. Whine less.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Redd Lenses Also sometimes you have variable speeds. IE your gang leader gets popped... suddenly your speed has changed... or a claymore enters gang... suddenly your speed has changed. Manually going through and testing different orbits at different speeds with different skills and different leadership would be so time consuming it would be ridiculous.
/signed
That's a fair point actually, hadn't thought of that.
Originally by: Sirius Problem I do agree that the ship should be "smart" enough to adjust max speed to maintain the orbit selected. However, the fact that it does not work this way, and that it takes some effort on the part of the pilot to maintain the correct orbit, adds a variable that makes fights more unpredictable/fun.
I have both lost targets, and myself escaped, when proper scram range was not maintained.
So, to keep fights interesting, I'm saying "no" to this one.
But the ship already adjusts its speed to try and hit the orbit selected. I've never seen anyone orbit at their full speed, ever. The ship keeps adjusting the speed time and time again.
Anyway, orbiting is lazy. If you're in an inty, you need more control. If you're not, and in a gun ship, then you need to maintain transversal. If you're not and in a missile ship - well, that's laziest
-- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban But the ship already adjusts its speed to try and hit the orbit selected. I've never seen anyone orbit at their full speed, ever. The ship keeps adjusting the speed time and time again.
No. The ship is trying to hit an orbit and game "physics" results in lower speed. The ship is not automatically adjusting speed (engine power) in order to attain a specified orbit, which is what the OP desires. ---- Train more. Whine less.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:54:00 -
[17]
I can understand the frustration, but I like the way it is. It's not realistic per se, but it provides a little touch of having to get familiar with flying your imaginary spaceships like you would with a RL vehicle. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.04.30 05:39:00 -
[18]
just go practice on a sentry gun, then on a buddy with a MWD.
You'll find the sweet spot for all you ships by experience. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
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Koyama Ise
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:25:00 -
[19]
I like this idea and I don't exactly get what people have wrong with it. I mean I tell my intie to orbit at like 10.5km why? Well While it would be nice to be closer to increase radial velocity and reduce the optimal range required for my guns, I don't want to take the chance of going into web range cause I've been neuted. If anything it's a nerf against lag cause I'd probably be not as worried if there wasn't a delay in-between moving and the fact that I orbit further out than supposed too. -------- Yes, I know I'm an alt, what are you going to do about it? |
Blancanieves
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers
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Posted - 2008.04.30 12:08:00 -
[20]
I hate it that to maneuver manually (which is the only way to make flying really interesting, whether "orbit" works correctly or not) you have to DOUBLE CLICK in space. The double click is clearly the worst invention in computer/human interfaces ever made. It makes me sick both mentally and physically. I hate everyone that makes me use it, and I hate the futile attempts to make the double click usable by assigning it to a separate button. I also hate numerous other decisions CCP made regarding their user interface that results in a lot of actually sickening actions (mostly excessive mouse movement and clicking) that are required by the user, and which could be avoided by good interface design.
Please give pilots the possibility to steer their ships from an egocentric perspective, without having to DOUBLE CLICK into the desired direction in space. This would make for a very interesting flying experience and a better realtime control especially of fast ships. You would also probably never again hear any complaints from interceptor pilots about your "working as intended" orbiting "feature". Btw.: There are even examples in the past to use the mouse for egocentric steering of space ships in an efficient and usable way, if you so much like the mouse.
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Mavolio
White Nova Industries Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.04.30 14:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Blancanieves Btw.: There are even examples in the past to use the mouse for egocentric steering of space ships in an efficient and usable way, if you so much like the mouse.
was it freelancer where you could click in space and then movve the mouse to control the ships direction? that was a good was of using the mouse to control a ship i always thought. Tho that would mean you couldn't click on things while you were doing that
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2008.04.30 14:18:00 -
[22]
You = OP :)
Nah, let something be dependent on player skills. The server already calculates you maximum speed compared to your turn rate and then also the amount you are thrown off. But as you said yourself, just reduce your speed. There is a lot of things you can do your self and which you should do yourself, otherwise you are not playing the game.
How much fun would it be, if you undocked, choose a "job" (PvP, PvE, Mining) and the computer did the rest. Made every single decision for you.
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Alex Salas
BROTHERHOOD OF SPARTA Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.04.30 14:29:00 -
[23]
If memory serves me when I was an engineer major the phenomena you are referring to is centripetal velocity.
I guess itĘs a personal preference if the server should factor that in or you are left to figure it out on your own.
Assuming you are using a MWD I believe it is an appropriate game mechanic to make you compensate.
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