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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
45
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Posted - 2012.03.06 11:32:00 -
[61] - Quote
To reliably catch a Cynabal you basically need just two ships:
- Rapier with at least double (better tripple) web and arty.
- Arazu with long point and double tracking disruptors and rails.
Get point + webs + damps on him. Keep him at 30km range. Use your drones to kill his drones. Use your arty/rails to rip him appart. Cynabal is an expensive ship around twice the price of a recon. So ISK wise everything is balanced.
By the way, if you have luck and land on top of a cynabal and get a scram on him you can solo a cynabal with a proper afterburner-fitted Assault Frigate. So everything is fine, nothing is broken. Cynabal is a good kiting ship, but its is not unbreakable and it is damn expensive. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
183
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Posted - 2012.03.06 11:53:00 -
[62] - Quote
Meditril wrote:
Cynabal is an expensive ship around twice the price of a recon.
Cynabal is a good kiting ship, but its is not unbreakable and it is damn expensive.
Also expect that the cynabal pilot is smarter than the average bear, so to catch one all you need is good enough bait to disract it from the uncloaking recons or whatever etc.
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March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
141
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Posted - 2012.03.06 13:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
to 2 posters above: this is exactly what i said. 1 kiting ship needs 2 (+ more smart/lucky pilots) to be caught.
Not sure this is normal situation when kiting ship can kill brawler 1vs1 (there was example from this thread). |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
298
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Posted - 2012.03.06 15:41:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Cearain wrote:Who told you that? I watched your corp do it in Otosela against TEST. Which is why I'm shocked that you still somehow managed to lose 44 ships (and at least one pod) to them.
Yeah you don't know what you are talking about.
We certainly got allot of kills against test but we didn't have to resort ot any such elaborate methods as a "preferred method." They were bad enough that simply shooting them was the preffered/most common method.
The vast majority of kills were on station but it was just so hard to resist all the free kills they kept giving us in such a short time. I mean I would go roaming looking for stuff but sabotage was just sitting at station racking up kill after kill as I was combing low sec for a fight.
It made it especially tempting when they started smack talking us, when they first came in, about what they were going to do to our mothers. Now my mother is in her sixtys never played any computer games but I think she would have been grabbing those free kills too if she played eve.
If test wants base out of low sec they should shut up and just pay the others at that station not to shoot them. But they should definitely not be smacktalking anyone. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
45
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Posted - 2012.03.06 16:10:00 -
[65] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:to 2 posters above: this is exactly what i said. 1 kiting ship needs 2 (+ more smart/lucky pilots) to be caught.
Not sure this is normal situation when kiting ship can kill brawler 1vs1 (there was example from this thread).
The only reason why you need two to kill is that he can run away that quickly. Basically every Drake can chase of a Cynabal since the Cynabal can not tank the missiles for long. If it would not run then it would die. So Missile-Spammer > Kiter.
A Cynabal will kill most brawlers in solo fight due to it will slowly go through their buffer tank and kill them. If they can't force it into scram range by using for example dampers or tracking disruptors. So Kiter > Brawler.
Finally a Drake or most missile spammers will die against a good high-dps, high-buffer and maybe speed AB tanked brawler. So we have Brawler > Missile-Spammer.
Have you noticed it? The result is a cycle: Missile-Spammer > Kiter > Brawler > Missile-Spammer > ...
The only difference is the survival chances in different environments: Missile-Spammers and Brawlers work much better near gates or stations where you can dock to hide. Kiters work much better in free field where they can use their speed to run away if necessary. So things are different, but no one is better in all cases than the other, that's the spice of EVE. |
Artemis Ahab
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.03.06 18:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Meditril wrote:March rabbit wrote:to 2 posters above: this is exactly what i said. 1 kiting ship needs 2 (+ more smart/lucky pilots) to be caught.
Not sure this is normal situation when kiting ship can kill brawler 1vs1 (there was example from this thread). The only reason why you need two to kill is that he can run away that quickly. Basically every Drake can chase of a Cynabal since the Cynabal can not tank the missiles for long. If it would not run then it would die.
Unless you get a scrambler on that Cyna it's still not going to die. It's going to MWD out of point range and warp off, so you're only half correct. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
36
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:27:00 -
[67] - Quote
Artemis Ahab wrote:Unless you get a scrambler on that Cyna it's still not going to die. It's going to MWD out of point range and warp off, so you're only half correct.
Or dual webs in a drake. |
Deen Wispa
165
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:50:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jonathan Jax wrote:Forgive my newbness, but if kiters counter brawlers, what counters kiters?
Dampening ship like the Celestis/Lach/Arazu. They either decide to get closer in and brawl with your gang or run If you want Empire and FW space enhanced, Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66900&find=unread |
Deen Wispa
165
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:52:00 -
[69] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Cearain wrote:Who told you that? I watched your corp do it in Otosela against TEST. Which is why I'm shocked that you still somehow managed to lose 44 ships (and at least one pod) to them. Yeah you don't know what you are talking about. We certainly got allot of kills against test but we didn't have to resort ot any such elaborate methods as a "preferred method." They were bad enough that simply shooting them was the preffered/most common method. The vast majority of kills were on station but it was just so hard to resist all the free kills they kept giving us in such a short time. I mean I would go roaming looking for stuff but sabotage was just sitting at station racking up kill after kill as I was combing low sec for a fight. It made it especially tempting when they started smack talking us, when they first came in, about what they were going to do to our mothers. Now my mother is in her sixtys never played any computer games but I think she would have been grabbing those free kills too if she played eve. If test wants base out of low sec they should shut up and just pay the others at that station not to shoot them. But they should definitely not be smacktalking anyone.
Don't mind him. He just doesn't want to give you any credit and will nitpick your KB to death for the sake of being right If you want Empire and FW space enhanced, Hans Jagerblitzen for CSM7 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66900&find=unread |
Ahrieman
Parsec Flux
86
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Posted - 2012.03.06 20:07:00 -
[70] - Quote
[quote=Artemis Ahab][quote=Meditril][quote=March rabbit]to 2 posters above: this is exactly what i said. 1 kiting ship needs 2 (+ more smart/lucky pilots) to be caught.
Not sure this is normal situation when kiting ship can kill brawler 1vs1 (there was example from this thread).[/quote
The only reason why you need two to kill is that he can run away that quickly. Basically every Drake can chase of a Cynabal since the Cynabal can not tank the missiles for long. If it would not run then it would die. [/quote
Unless you get a scrambler on that Cyna it's still not going to die. It's going to MWD out of point range and warp off, so you're only half correct.[/quote
Triple webs on a Cynabal...I think not
EDIT: *** me, I totally read this wrong. The point was that "IF the Cynabal does not warp off, it will die to Drakes." A dual or trip web Rapier should have no problem keeping a Cynabal from getting away. Sig tanking is the new black |
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Artemis Ahab
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.03.08 09:14:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ahrieman wrote:
Triple webs on a Cynabal...I think not
EDIT: *** me, I totally read this wrong. The point was that "IF the Cynabal does not warp off, it will die to Drakes." A dual or trip web Rapier should have no problem keeping a Cynabal from getting away.
Which goes back to the point he was trying to make. Without a rapier (or T3 booster), and given a semi decent pilot, you're not likely to kill the Cyna, even with a drake. Smart Cyna pilot won't go near OH web/scram/neut range, and they have the falloff to not worry about losing too much in the way of dps by staying that far away, and the agility such that even the 'slingshot into OH scram range' is unlikely to succeed in time for it to matter. Yes, a drake can chase it off, but without the rapier or booster, that Cyna is highly unlikely to die to it (once again, given a "not stupid" pilot). |
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC 0ccupational Hazzard
58
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Posted - 2012.03.09 11:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
Pfft
Brawling > Kiting
Kiting doesent require the same amount of skill and awareness that everyone says it does, burn off gate/celestial, set overview by distance, kill retards that come at you.
With brawling its all about timing, target selection, cap management, quick reactions and overall common sense.
It is much harder to jump into a 15 man gate camp with a sliepner with the intent to engage and commit than it is when jumping in with a cynabal and killing tacklers then leaving.
0.0 is so full of retards it makes for easy kills when kiting, however no matter ******** someone is, 10 retards in canes at facemelt range on an active tanked brawling ship still hurts regardless.
So in a way, brawling is actually more fun because you can die. A well flown cynabal/nano drake is pretty hard to kill unless there is lots of light tackle + rapier/huggin Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
80
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Posted - 2012.03.09 12:59:00 -
[73] - Quote
PVP is basically boxing.
Kiting is the speedy little guy, that if he gets cornered gets mutilated coz he's really a wimp and can't take a punch.
Brawling is the big slow slugger who will chase stuff around the ring but lacks stamina and runs the risk of tiring himself out.
One boxer attempts to use guile to win a fight, the other attempts to use strength and power. Personally I prefer to project strength and power to my enemies, not to say I don't use both tactics when it suits. Whatever it takes to win is the norm for Eve. |
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
12
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Posted - 2012.03.09 13:50:00 -
[74] - Quote
I think there is a lot of misconceptions about "brawling" in this thread. Being succesful in a short range tanky setup is not just about hitting approach and activate guns/tank and hope for the best, that is a sure way to die to any thing that out dps your tank.
To me flying brawling ships, especially active tanks, is much more dependent on pre-fight conditions and what you as a pilot do to manipulate those conditions in order to get as favourable a start/situation as possible before comitting, since you have less options than a kiting setup once the fight ensues. This, however, doesn't mean that you are totally out of options once your committed, there are still tons of stuff you can do during the actual fight to increase your chances of winning. For example, if you have a MWD, try using it after the fight starts, you'll be surprised what this can accomplish
Also, gal and minnie recons are indeed a counter to kiting setups but they are a much worse opponent should you be on the recieving end of them in a brawling setup. Kiters have decent range and can often force those recons off the field with a bit of careful piloting where as a brawler caught off gate by a recon is in a really bad spot. This is probably somewhat true for all recons vs brawlers tbh.
Imo, brawling, especially active tanks, is a lot more challenging than kiting and requires a lot more thought before/during the fight in order to be succesful at it. But then again I don't fly alot of kiting stuff so I might be totally wrong here |
Sovai Elaaren
Korriban Confederation
21
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Posted - 2012.03.09 22:56:00 -
[75] - Quote
Some interesting opinions, though I'd venture to guess that when anyone says one is better than the other it is simple preference. Both can be awful tactics in the wrong situation.
But yeah, both valid tactics and having tried both and read through this thread, I'd say every PvPer should probably get familiar with both tactics so they can choose which tactic best suits their situation. |
Sovai Elaaren
Korriban Confederation
21
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Posted - 2012.03.09 22:56:00 -
[76] - Quote
Double-posting goodness. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin.
337
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Posted - 2012.03.09 23:12:00 -
[77] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Yeah you don't know what you are talking about.
Sure I believe you. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
36
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Posted - 2012.03.10 00:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
mental maverick wrote:Imo, brawling, especially active tanks, is a lot more challenging than kiting and requires a lot more thought before/during the fight in order to be succesful at it. But then again I don't fly alot of kiting stuff so I might be totally wrong here
IMO, you are correct that it requires more thought before the fight.
However during the fight, I find kiting to require a lot more thought. For example, something simple like holding on to your target. If you are brawling, you are pretty much on top of your target (since you're short range dps) or you are choosing to release. While kiting, I'm always anticipating where I should be heading to both hold onto my target AND avoid the enemy fleets close range dps/max transversal against tier 3 bc's etc.
Pretty much anything you do during a fight in a brawling ship has to be done in a kiting ship, but kiting has a LOT more possibilities to constantly consider with regards to ship placement, acceleration, etc. You can kite without considering them, but you'll be a much better kiter if you do. |
Annie Anomie
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
12
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Posted - 2012.03.10 02:25:00 -
[79] - Quote
The hate comes from people annoyed at not being able to hold a fast ship down when their recons decloak and their blob comes in.
This is how 90% of solo engagements in EVE end. You have to fit for that.
It's true, you have to commit less in a kitey ship but so what?
A lot of solo PVP nowadays is avoiding DIAFing to blobs. Don't see why giving yourself margin for error by choosing a ship better at this is lame.
I fly scram range brawlers because it's more fun to go balls deep with big DPS than it is to dance around at point range sometimes. Not gonna kid myself that this is anything more than choosing a suboptimal strategy for comedy value though.
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Mirrodin
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
24
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Posted - 2012.03.28 01:14:00 -
[80] - Quote
As an FC I love running brawling groups over kiting groups. It takes a bit more full-system awareness, and multitasking/managing individual members (i.e. the bubblers, fast tackle, scouts) and keeping the brawling group together.
I enjoy both though. |
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MacrossGalaxy
KVK Refugee camp Apocalypse Now.
1
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Posted - 2012.03.29 12:07:00 -
[81] - Quote
i think kiting is probably the only viable way to 1 v N |
Red Teufel
Blackened Skies THE UNTHINKABLES
48
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Posted - 2012.03.29 12:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
Kiting works if your dumb enough to chace after them alone or get out of range of the logi. This tactic doesn't really work well if you are up against an experienced fleet and FC. |
Princess Nexxala
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
29
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Posted - 2012.03.29 14:48:00 -
[83] - Quote
QFT
MacrossGalaxy wrote:i think kiting is probably the only viable way to 1 v N
Is sexy time? |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1205
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Posted - 2012.03.29 15:06:00 -
[84] - Quote
I fight both ways, depending on the situation and company I keep.
Kiting is about finesse. You keep far enough out that they can't snare you and crush your pitifully-tanked ship, but close enough to keep them tackled and apply damage. It requires skill and solid knowledge of your ship and all the ships you'll be going up against. Kiting fights are won before they start with study, planning, and positioning.
Brawling is about preparation and reflexes. Brawls are won by proper fitting as much as proper piloting. It's your fitting and your ability to engage it properly that wins the day, overpowering their tank and/or shutting down their ability to apply damage to you. A fit that can deal with all the contingencies and come out on top is what wins brawl fights.
A good pilot knows how to deal with both. If you're a brawler and you keep losing to kiters, you need to adapt your fitting to either escape them or turn the fight to your favor. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
ApollonicShadow
2 Pods 1 Pixel
4
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Posted - 2012.03.29 16:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
OT Smithers wrote:Kiting is dancing the Tango while her protective father watches you with his shotgun in hand.
Brawling is running stark naked into a police station with a chainsaw running full tilt boogie.
Kiting is like driving an F1 Ferarri in the rain at Monoco.
Brawling is like driving a top fuel dragster.
Kiting is like trying to catch a King Cobra... with your teeth.
Brawling is slathering yourself with goats blood, jumping into the Polar Bear exibit, and then raping one of the bears.
In other words...
One requires finess, judgement, situational awareness, and tactics. The other requires attitude and often alcohol.
I do believe I have just read the best analogy... EVER.... |
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