Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Macmuelli
Gallente I Memento Mori I Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.05.03 23:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Macmuelli on 03/05/2008 23:51:38 Edited by: Macmuelli on 03/05/2008 23:47:36 With the numbers of skilled Players, the numbers of Capital within a fight grows daily. At least it changed into a Capital online game, which sense is only to show up more capitals.
The high numbers of alternate charakters, players have, will make it easy to skill chars to log out moms and ( who can afford it) titans.
Fleets with 10+ Titans 40 Moms/ hundrets of carriers and dreads will be the future. Unbreakable Fleets and power which can destroy everything is the music of tommorrow, if it goes like now.
Fast and important WINABLE+interesting fights are needed, if u knock on the neighbours door.
What dou think about an overhauling which limits the Capitals in a fleet within a system?
Fleet operation pos needs to be anchored which defined the Fleet. Means a seperate Pos simliar tooutpost,which are concquerable and could be a possible Step for attacking fleets to set a step within the system.
Limited to 1 Titan slot for each system where such a pos is anchored.
It will hurt alliances whith multiple Titans for sure. But they can be spread out around there souvereignety to defend the system.
Perhaps worth Think about something like this and such a system? What would u do to increase the Fun and stop such capital blobs?
breg mac
Ps: a long time ago i had post something around this idea, but couldnt find it right now.
U have an idea to turn fight s intosomething interesting away from capital blolbs?
|
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 00:09:00 -
[2]
I'm not sure how an arbitrary ship restriction by area could be applied without people simply parking the full quota in an area themselves for as long as is necessary, preventing the attacker from getting any force of their own there at all.
One thing that I thought made the G/IRON/RZR invasion of ASCN space in Christmas 2005 so interesting was that there were dreads in the game, but the numbers were such that they still had the "wow" factor about them, rather than the "meh" of what half a dozen dreads mean today. I'd like to see the frequency of capitals return to around those days somehow.
One suggestion I read on SHC that I liked was to perhaps look at making capitals persistent in space when their pilots are logged off. I figure that that would be enough of a disincentive to help bring their numbers under control to a point where only the most dedicated pilots are flying them out of easy docking reach (or in the case of supercaps, flying them at all).
/Ben
|
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 07:41:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Arithron on 04/05/2008 07:41:30 Hi Macmuelli,
Are you suggesting something like that employed during the alliance tournament? A 'points' system for ships with an alliance fleet made up of just X points (altered slightly for skills of fleet commander). This would reflect real life a little better; for each large ship, X number of support and protective vessels are required. It would make battles a little more interesting and definately make intel more valuable!
Take care, Bruce Hansen
|
zoolkhan
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 08:37:00 -
[4]
Edited by: zoolkhan on 04/05/2008 08:38:38 i understand the fear and the where that vision comes from, but i would not draw such a dark picture. skills are insanely expensive to - and having trained a character for 4 years just to have him logged off most of the time is not too appealing. (i could fly titan easily now if i had the cash to purchase one, and if i would want to throw my main character away.
So as for the supercaps, i see more strategic benefit from decentralizing them across a constellation rather than putting them all in one system. but thats alredy speculation.
however, instead of slots per system, i rather would suggest slots per alliance per fleet
so even if one alliance has a dozen of them stand by they would just be able to use a single titan at a time, no matter how many fleets they form.
this could be workarounded too. but an adaption of strategy must be allowed.
Dreads, yeah every alliance has dreads - but since theyre a one trick pony you wont see them in every encounter, this invalidates your fears a bit. Its kind of self controlling.
my dread hasnt seen a fight since .. what.. 6 months or more? Instead you find me in frigates or battleships.
Yes, more and more cap ship skilled pilots will be in the game in future, but the number of caps brought to a fight does not necessary increase the same speed for as those ships are strongly bound to some roles, roles that often just dont apply to the situation.
their price ensures that theyre not flown to the frontline like rifters.
and the current pos warfware situation doesnt even allowe them to be brought to the fight theyr emade for. You have first to disable the cynojammer which is usually mounted at a up to the teeth armed death star. Battleship pilots whoms ship have never been designed to face focussed large pos guns have to take on that...
this kind of warfware has become unattractive except to the larger alliances who can bring up the right numbes in battleships to take out that cynojammer.
you see.. its all good.. (its not, but in your sense it is) right now capitals are as unattractive as ever - still vy high price for skills - long learning curve - expensive to built - not insureable (nobody i know insures his dread, unless u are MC and have a pos siege 4 tims a day) - lot more attrctive alternatives in sub capital ship selection - 0.0 sov holder tools such as , bridges, jammers, focussed fire increase risk and makes it hard to jump in in the first place
I would wait and see how it develops, chances are that caps and supercaps numbers will incerase much slower than you anticipate
|
Macmuelli
Gallente I Memento Mori I Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 18:09:00 -
[5]
Perhaps my view into this is at a bit dark at the moment. Pictures of capital fleets, whith 3 titans+ and massiv dreads / carriers are impressiv, but at least i ask my self: If big allys are able to field such a fleet right now, what they willbring tomorrow? Where is the counterpart? System souvereignety include cynor jamming, make it impossible to fight such a fleet? Where is the challenge?
Some weeks/ month ago, was a request for ideas about the 3d map within ambulation and what u like to do with it.
Planning attacks/ fleet operations was suggested and it looks like in the video. But what u want to plan, if u will face for sure a hugh defense capital blob?
Fights should change tobe interesting again.
The base for both sides should be similar, which makes scouting, include generell intel about your enemies more important, then hearing 4 moms 7 carriers 20 bs behind the gate. MMmmmH lets wait and see who has the most " mussles" and patience to sit on the chair and wait something behind the gate will change.
@ Arithron: It could defentiv work and i would like to see it added to the game. Perhaps testing his capacibilty inside the Faction warfare first? Depended on anchored stuff (Fleet warfare poses)within your terretory, which define the numbers of members of the fleet. Systems without such poses could be the Base for planning attacks into it, if u plan it on the 3D map.
I think the biggest problem of this idea is , that it will hurt a lot of peoples if u would added directly into the pvp combat. The Drawback could be really negativ.
U need a base where u can test it out. And factional warfare could be this base.
@ Ben Derindar
I think there to many things which can keep a player to log of the game. Real life breaks cames fast. Things u cannot forsight pa example. So if the capitalis persitent then, and u cannot protect it. At least u couldnt doanything against the real life break, it would hurt him a lot.
Its a pretty drastic suggestion, which open only one chance for the logging capital pilot to protect the ship. Give the command over it , toan corpmember who can fly it. Its a realy interesting idea.
@zoolkhan
U right drawing " dark pictures " arent good. But sometimes i see them.
Spreading out supercaps within your constealltion opens the way for a lot of strategic things ucan do. An i think war is based on strategy. (Jeah some peoples have a big bomb and a red button to pu**** , far way from strategy,.. but it is written in an other letter.)
Creating isks is alsoeasy in this days, and specially if uhave hundrets of players in background. High skill prices will not keep them away.
Hundret of peoples sayed they would leave Eve if the would nerf the carriers... I m personal not sure, if , if it will not overhauled, it will have a negativ drawback within the future. Definable Roles for them, which a can set in stations for the penalty of other roles. Limited in numbers, to make fights anf ally warfare more interesting.
At least u are right. Perhaps it will increase slower then i think.
At least the cold time of the yearis defentiv finihsed around me, and dark ppictures willchange into sunny ones.
breg mac
perhaps some question inside the post could be answered. Im realy interest in response and your view.
|
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 18:16:00 -
[6]
Too easy to circumvent. Making an alliance costs 1 billion isk. For people with several titans, a billion is meaningless. All you will see then is alliances BoB I, II and III vs alliances RA I, II and III.
If you want to limit titans, you either need to make it not needed/attractive to have so many (i.e. nerf the doomsday), or put an upkeep on it. If a titan requires say 5bn isk a month in fuel, alliances might limit their numbers. Same as POSses really, the only reason people don't spam 50 large deathstars is not their cost to build, its their cost to maintain. Titans and maybe moms could use such a balancing instrument if they are not nerfed in another way.
Current confirmed titan count stands at nearly 50 I think, I wonder when we will hit the magic 100. Maybe we could start bets on when CCP feels they have to nerf titans, before or after there are more than 100 titans ingame.
|
Peri Stark
Gallente Blue Labs Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 01:38:00 -
[7]
I think capitals will limit themselves. They are not practical for fights that move between systems and they are just not much fun to fly. Smaller more mobile ships will always be the mainstay of a fleet. ================================================
Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! Vote Peri Stark for the CSM. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 02:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Macmuelli @ Ben Derindar
I think there to many things which can keep a player to log of the game. Real life breaks cames fast. Things u cannot forsight pa example. So if the capitalis persitent then, and u cannot protect it. At least u couldnt doanything against the real life break, it would hurt him a lot.
Its a pretty drastic suggestion, which open only one chance for the logging capital pilot to protect the ship. Give the command over it , toan corpmember who can fly it. Its a realy interesting idea.
I agree that none of us can discount the possibility that RL can and will get in the way, often at the worst possible times, but at the same time it introduces an added element of risk to piloting capitals if they were made to be persistent in space. I figure that some people would see that risk as being worthwhile, so the end result would be fewer capitals in space.
The idea could be applied to capitals of all types; with dreads and carriers the risk is reduced to a degree by the fact that they can at least still dock. But yes you're quite right, in the case of pilots who have no other option they would have to pass control of the ship to a friend if they wanted to be sure they could still use it later.
/Ben
Ben Derindar: Eve CSM candidate
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 04:45:00 -
[9]
You can't use inorganic methods to keep capitals out of fleets. People will just bring more gangs. If its per system people will just bring as many caps to lock opponents out.
You must make caps less effective or more costly.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Macmuelli
Gallente I Memento Mori I Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 07:22:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Macmuelli on 05/05/2008 07:25:01
Originally by: Goumindong You can't use inorganic methods to keep capitals out of fleets. People will just bring more gangs. If its per system people will just bring as many caps to lock opponents out.
You must make caps less effective or more costly.
I think making them more costly isnt the real way. At least u are able to earn a lot of isks these days too. And it would be like a " Drop of water , on a hot stone".
After the suggestion to "nerf" the carriers/moms, thousend of peoples have signed up against it. Giving them there specific role, whould introduce the first steps, reducing them inside fleets. Because they are beside the possibilty to remote repair and transport stuff, also a really offense Part, if they are fielding in numbers.(specially Motherships)
The question now is not specially to u! So every csm canditates can answer, if he like.
Would u support a revisite of capitalships and reducing them to specific roles, like the earlier tried " carrier nerf" ?
At least who can stop a 150 + capital fleet sieging the towers, if the offense potentiel is so hugh. A counterpart is needed. At least a revisite of capitals and his roles inside fleets.
breg mac
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
EVE FAN since 2003
äWode, Wode, hale dinnen Rosse nu voder, nu Diestel un Dorn, Schter jar beter Korn!ô
|
|
Noghri ViR
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 07:33:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Noghri ViR on 05/05/2008 07:33:23 If you take a look at my post over at my campaign website: http://noghri08.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/rough-ideas/
You'll see that my idea would be to limit titans to one DD per grid for a certain period of time, say 45-60 minutes. Vote Noghri ViR for CSM Campagin Website Campagin Slogan: "A Chicken in Every Pot, A Carrier in every Hangar Bay" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 07:37:00 -
[12]
Well i have been thinking about moving dreads off grid and giving a smaller ship a target painter module that they can then target POS with.
But I am not sure what to do with carriers. Probably have to do something about their remote logistics strength. Change it from high slot based remote logistics to drone based remote logistics with massive bonuses to logistics drones.
This would make the carrier/MS RR blob a lot easier to counter and mean that bringing large amounts of caps won't necessarily save the caps you have since they can still be DPS'd into the ground[likely at great cost]. But i was just saying that you can't really look at "limiting" solutions because they simply won't work or will cause other far worse problems.
Motherships are especially bad on the capital logistics front, since they can't be jammed the only way to kill a MS blob is via ridiculous amounts of neuting or ridiculous amounts of DPS, you can't "out tactic" it[and the neuting doesn't work when they are remote cap boosting each other]
It also means its dangerous to run your smartbombs if you are getting remote repped.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 08:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Goumindong You can't use inorganic methods to keep capitals out of fleets. People will just bring more gangs. If its per system people will just bring as many caps to lock opponents out.
You must make caps less effective or more costly.
I think the original suggestion of a command POS is quite good.
1. You have to siege other POSes in a full system first to get "slots" for a command POS 2. You have to fuel it 3. You have to defend it
The problem is following: If the command POS goes down, what happens with the capitals ? Because in the current state of the game, you would online the command POS, jump in capitals, offline POS, online again, jump in more capitals, rinse and repeat.
The idea alternate I would love is:
1. SIEGE POSes. Replace dreads in that they can fire on other POSes within system with a designated targeting ship. This makes invading systems difficult however. You'd need to conquer a "slot" for one and it would go down realy fast as the defender POSes would shoot it down fast (a fitting req balance between ship defence and POS siege modules could tweak this so a siege POS has little ship defence).
2. Carriers and MOMs are a rather easy fix, remove their ability to fit smartbombs.
I guess these suggestions are rather stupid (I never participated in capital fights). And the question of titans is still there ... --- SIG --- Goumindong for CSM. |
Macmuelli
Gallente I Memento Mori I Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 08:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Macmuelli on 05/05/2008 08:31:15
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Goumindong You can't use inorganic methods to keep capitals out of fleets. People will just bring more gangs. If its per system people will just bring as many caps to lock opponents out.
You must make caps less effective or more costly.
I think the original suggestion of a command POS is quite good.
1. You have to siege other POSes in a full system first to get "slots" for a command POS 2. You have to fuel it 3. You have to defend it
The problem is following: If the command POS goes down, what happens with the capitals ? Because in the current state of the game, you would online the command POS, jump in capitals, offline POS, online again, jump in more capitals, rinse and repeat.
The idea alternate I would love is:
1. SIEGE POSes. Replace dreads in that they can fire on other POSes within system with a designated targeting ship. This makes invading systems difficult however. You'd need to conquer a "slot" for one and it would go down realy fast as the defender POSes would shoot it down fast (a fitting req balance between ship defence and POS siege modules could tweak this so a siege POS has little ship defence).
2. Carriers and MOMs are a rather easy fix, remove their ability to fit smartbombs.
I guess these suggestions are rather stupid (I never participated in capital fights). And the question of titans is still there ...
If such a command pos goes down, a " flagship" could take this role. Inlcude a added penalty/ reforming of a gang which make it not easy to reform a fleet then. It opens the way for the agressors to change the situation in a fight. Or setting inside the system a own command pos.
?
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
EVE FAN since 2003
äWode, Wode, hale dinnen Rosse nu voder, nu Diestel un Dorn, Schter jar beter Korn!ô
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 08:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 08:56:14 Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 08:55:43
Originally by: Hugh Ruka ...
I am not sure of the specifics of this idea, but it would not work as the defending alliance could spam all the moons with death stars. Now you have to kill a POS without capitals in order to bring your own...
ed: Regarding the post above:
What happens when the flagship is gone?
Having requirements like this in order to use capitals is probably not a good idea.
Making them take longer to cyno in and out and reducing the remote logistics capabilities of the ships is probably a better idea.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Bane Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 17:40:00 -
[16]
I can say with extreme confidence that I take the strongest stance on capital ship over-proliferation, though sharing such opinions can make you unpopular. |
Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 17:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 08:56:14 Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 08:55:43
Originally by: Hugh Ruka ...
I am not sure of the specifics of this idea, but it would not work as the defending alliance could spam all the moons with death stars. Now you have to kill a POS without capitals in order to bring your own...
ed: Regarding the post above:
What happens when the flagship is gone?
Having requirements like this in order to use capitals is probably not a good idea.
Making them take longer to cyno in and out and reducing the remote logistics capabilities of the ships is probably a better idea.
that's exactly the problem ... how do you get the first on in when the defenders have all the advantages ... --- SIG --- Goumindong for CSM. |
Macmuelli
Gallente I Memento Mori I Atrum Tempestas Foedus
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:21:00 -
[18]
i fear its to complicated to found a way.
If the flagship would be destroeyed, u can field another one. If there is no one left= capitals out and u havent protect it right. It could lowers the capitals in fights.
Achance to go in and fielding a own "command pos" could have a mobile " nature". Idenpended from moons or planets. Only transportable and anchoreable with black op ships.
just an idea... ( which would it make possible)
I agree that such a Topic, request and thoughts ( if they are not supporting the whole mass), can make u unpopular.
This question and possible situation will come one day for sure. Everyone skillpoints grows day by day.
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
EVE FAN since 2003
äWode, Wode, hale dinnen Rosse nu voder, nu Diestel un Dorn, Schter jar beter Korn!ô
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |