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Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.05.05 06:48:00 -
[1]
Amongst the 'power play' Alliances, spying is an accepted method of warfare.
Do you feel there should be more mechanisms provided by CCP to counter spying?
Should CCP have a policy on the hacking of out of game voice servers and forums?
Where do YOU draw the line between player anonymity and the security of the hard earned work of groups of players?
Mynas Atoch CEO, ETNY (and hacking victim)
Sir Molle says : Mynas is Dead!
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zoolkhan
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2008.05.05 07:11:00 -
[2]
ok first what you want to hear, my popular vote winning quote:
"I am against out of game (metagaming?) measurements like those mentioned.
Should ccp do something against? of course!!!"
Can CCP do something against it? no. It happenes out of game, it is not within the jurisdiction of iceland, or within the responsibilities of CCP.
A sad fact. Certainly i can go to them and tell them do something against it, but the realist inside me knows it will probably not change a lot.
If you get hacked, you need to go to the police. Intruding someones server is a real world crime. And it is a lousy style too. Also you could grab your own nose for not securing the server properly. (Sorry, this topic is my turf and i have a strong opinion about this)
If you have evidence and can nail down who it was - call your lawyer and pull that guy out of traffic. (close to an evidence can be an IP-address in combination with an exact NTP synced time plus confirmation of your ISP plus their ISP on the identity of the used DHCP address identity linked to a real person - and confirmation that not a third party host has been used to relay that attack)
Experience shows that its down to national law if the attackers ISP is willing to give your lawyer the identity of their customer.
the music industry is trying to do that in all countrys, they have more sucsess here than there....
If you have no evidence, then you cannot expect ccp to take action against some nameless hacker either (despite that they probably dont feel entitled to do so)
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where do I draw the line?
I draw it between ingame and out of game, i draw it there where realism is jeopadized.
One single person should not be able to be member of .. lets say bob and goon at same time.
This would not be possible in real wordl, thus creates unrealistic possibilities.
If one need to spy, then he should send a real person, dedicated to that task to infiltrate and report back.
...but my opinion is already overruled by the concept of alternative characters and uncontrollable amounts of alternative accounts.
so, lets be realistic.
Create an athmosphere of honor and respect - this is the best defense against such happenings.
In the more than three-four years war between matari loyalists and amarr loyalists (mid size alliances not smaller than 200 people per side, not larger than 1000) there has been no spying, no infiltration at all as far i recall.
was it a real war with tooth and nail and hate and rage despite the RP aspect?
OH YES... OH VERY YES
but some lines have never been crossed.
bottomline: if you can propose some kind of policy that limits effectively the use of unfair methods such as hacking, and would lie within the doability range of ccp in a technical and legal aspect - i would be your paladin fighting it through to the ears of ccp
Until then, it is the players themself and the admins who need to take actions.
secure your servers, and find enemies that are worth it - ROEs that people stick to.
find the honor
recruiting -forum
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.05.05 07:14:00 -
[3]
First of all, I'm sorry to hear that you got hacked.
I think that spying is a part of the game. But the line clearly is when you cause harm to people(Destroy their forums, DDOS of services, etc).
But CCP can't do anything about it, sadly. Unless the attack was done trough the servers in London, CCP have no logs of it.
So if there is talk about attacks trough out of game means, it's a legal matter for the police to take care of, not CCP.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 07:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Amongst the 'power play' Alliances, spying is an accepted method of warfare.
Do you feel there should be more mechanisms provided by CCP to counter spying?
Should CCP have a policy on the hacking of out of game voice servers and forums?
Where do YOU draw the line between player anonymity and the security of the hard earned work of groups of players?
Mynas Atoch CEO, ETNY (and hacking victim)
Hacking these systems[if it really is hacking and not simply compromised access via getting a log-in from someone who has access] is illegal. Why does CCP need to take a stand against things that are illegal? Report the illegal activity to the police.
There are a lot of meta-game activities that are illegal that CCP has no real way of policing or stopping and they aren't CCP's job to.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Hardin
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.05.05 07:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: zoolkhan
"I am against out of game (metagaming?) measurements like those mentioned.
Should ccp do something against? of course!!!"
Can CCP do something against it? no. It happens out of game, it is not within the jurisdiction of iceland, or within the responsibilities of CCP.
A sad fact. Certainly i can go to them and tell them do something against it, but the realist inside me knows it will probably not change a lot.
---------- In the more than three-four years war between matari loyalists and amarr loyalists (mid size alliances not smaller than 200 people per side, not larger than 1000) there has been no spying, no infiltration at all as far i recall.
was it a real war with tooth and nail and hate and rage despite the RP aspect?
OH YES... OH VERY YES
but some lines have never been crossed.
find the honor
Zoolkhan pretty much summarised my own thinking on this!
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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.05 08:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Do you feel there should be more mechanisms provided by CCP to counter spying?
Such as?
I'd be open to ideas, so long as they didn't curtail the in-game aspect too heavily. It's the out-of-game stuff that worries me, but that's beyond CCP's control.
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Should CCP have a policy on the hacking of out of game voice servers and forums?
It would be unenforceable on their part. As has already been said, that's not CCP's domain.
Here's an idea though. What if CCP were to offer hosting services for such OOG resources themselves? It could provide them with an additional income stream, and provide us with a place to set things up with the knowledge that CCP would have every right to act against hacking attempts there?
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Where do YOU draw the line between player anonymity and the security of the hard earned work of groups of players?
At the law.
/Ben
Ben Derindar: Eve CSM candidate
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Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.05.05 11:14:00 -
[7]
I can only echo what the other players have said. CCP is not the police, and shouldnt be expected to behave as such.
Recruitment Director :: EVE University
DV for CSM |
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:09:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 05/05/2008 12:11:39 Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 05/05/2008 12:09:26
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Amongst the 'power play' Alliances, spying is an accepted method of warfare.
Do you feel there should be more mechanisms provided by CCP to counter spying?
Should CCP have a policy on the hacking of out of game voice servers and forums?
Where do YOU draw the line between player anonymity and the security of the hard earned work of groups of players?
Mynas Atoch CEO, ETNY (and hacking victim)
Hacking these systems[if it really is hacking and not simply compromised access via getting a log-in from someone who has access] is illegal.
I'd love to see you trying to make that argument stick in the police interview room if someone in your bank gave you the passwords to their mainframe and you used them. :) But thank you for your answer - it makes your position very clear.
Thanks for the other answers too guys and gals .. some interesting comments about very grey area of the game.
Sir Molle says : Mynas is Dead!
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 12:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch I'd love to see you trying to make that argument stick in the police interview room if someone in your bank gave you the passwords to their mainframe and you used them. :) But thank you for your answer - it makes your position very clear.
Thanks for the other answers too guys and gals .. some interesting comments about very grey area of the game.
A TS is not a bank. It is not protected by confidentiality laws and you cannot take anything of value from it that deprives that thing from someone else.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Athena Attom
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.05 13:01:00 -
[10]
Oh man, cant... stop... laughing.....
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2008.05.05 16:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal I can only echo what the other players have said. CCP is not the police, and shouldnt be expected to behave as such.
Pretty much that. CCP has the right to control what happens in their game. You chose to create an out of game resource for your own use, you should protect it yourself. ----------------------
CSM 08 Blog | 1st Campaign Vid |
Noghri ViR
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 16:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal I can only echo what the other players have said. CCP is not the police, and shouldn't be expected to behave as such.
This is the same line as I think. CCP isn't here to police out of game activities. If you get hacked out of game, then report it to the police. If it's metagaming then learn from them so you aren't vulnerable next time.
--------------------------------------------- Vote Noghri ViR for CSM Campagin Website Campaign Slogan: "A Chicken in Every Pot, A Carrier in every Hang |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 17:37:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Amongst the 'power play' Alliances, spying is an accepted method of warfare.
Do you feel there should be more mechanisms provided by CCP to counter spying?
Should CCP have a policy on the hacking of out of game voice servers and forums?
Where do YOU draw the line between player anonymity and the security of the hard earned work of groups of players?
Mynas Atoch CEO, ETNY (and hacking victim)
Oi Mynas! As a victim in the past of hacking myself I can empathize with the frustration you must have felt when this occurred. Addressing each of your questions directly:
I do think that CCP does provide a great deal of resources to counter spying. I don't want to go into detail regarding exact counterintelligence methods, and nothing's completely foolproof, but a great deal of the damages wrought by spies can be mitigated by being extremely careful.
I don't think CCP could realistically create a policy whose scope extended to actions taken outside of our game, nor should they. That is a law enforcement function.
I draw the line at the law. Some people have a pipe dream that says spies should be illegal and banned from the game or whatever, but not only is this pretty much unenforceable, I feel it would actually remove a large part of Eve.
Perhaps not the Eve EVERYONE wants, but a great many people get a great deal of fun from playing the spy game. Who am I to tell them how to play? http://www.griefgaming.com/images/darius_sig.jpg
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Prefect Six
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.06 21:51:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Amongst the 'power play' Alliances, spying is an accepted method of warfare.
Do you feel there should be more mechanisms provided by CCP to counter spying?
Definitely. Its obvious CCP can track IP address, surely they can sort who's logging on to what from where.
Quote:
Should CCP have a policy on the hacking of out of game voice servers and forums?
Although I think it's awful and shouldn't be allowed I don't see anyway for them to prevent this. However, if a player can prove that he/she was indeed hacked and can prove that another player did it through whatever *** metagaming tactics then I would be 100% for said *** metagamer to be permabanned.
Quote:
Where do YOU draw the line between player anonymity and the security of the hard earned work of groups of players?
At the game world. If you can convince someone in game to be stupid enough to let you into their corp then, ok. I'm perfectly ok with the corp thefts and **** that goes on in game, but when people start having their computers hacked, passwords stolen, etc. then I believe a line has been crossed.
Also, hi Mynas.
Sincerely, Prefect Six (and victim of Mynas' nerdrage)
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