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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.05.09 17:15:00 -
[1]
There has been a lot of talk about the Council of Stellar Management (CSM), as things progressed there has been more and more news and blogs. At this point we have a list of candidates, the election has started, we have forums and news and even a MOTD. At the same time, a lot of you players out there may still be a bit unsure of exactly what the CSM is all about. To correct this Xhagen, the guy in handling the CSM for CCP, has written a Dev Blog which will make things more clear.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang
"It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing." |
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.05.09 17:42:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Treelox on 09/05/2008 17:44:11 so people are still confused or disillusioned about CSM, another dev blog was required? In hopes of raising participation?
---edit fixed a typo --
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Mary MooseTipper
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Posted - 2008.05.09 18:27:00 -
[3]
- If 5% of the voters support a topic, the Council is required to bring it up. This is done to accommodate the voters, not the Council.
5% of what The voters just on that topic? Or the entire playerbase of potential voters?
If it is just 5% of the topic voters then it means that a topic that recieved 19 nays and just 1 aye would have to go to the CSM. A waste of CSM time?
If it is 5% of the entire active playerbase - well, just how many is that? What proportion of the playerbase participate in the forums? How many will vote?
It would be interesting to see what the turnout is for these elections (as a percentage of the active playerbase). I wonder if CCP will publish this ...
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.05.09 18:34:00 -
[4]
is that supposed to be 5% of the population or 50%, 5% seems pretty low..? --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Shinhan
Phoenix Knights THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.09 21:14:00 -
[5]
The way I understand it, if out of 200.000 players only 10% (or 20.000) vote in this now elections for CSM, later discussions in CSM forum will require 5% of the number who voted in CSM elections. So, with this hypothetical numbers, 1.000 votes will be needed to force the issue. -- Selling apples, 1 signature each. ѼѼѼѼѼѼѼ |
Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.05.09 22:13:00 -
[6]
I thought it was 5% of the player base. If 5% of the player base (of 200,000 people)... if 10,000 people respond to an issue, that will force the CSM Council to bring it up. Otherwise, the CSM members will bring up whatever issues THEY deem important, after discussing with us etc., as described.
As far as exploiting, or undermining the process...
- CCP can undermine the "we must answer" clause by stating that they do have a fix for an issue, but it's under NDA, and the NDA will not be lifted for a long-term period of time (more than 6 months), thus preventing all the parts of the process that require CCP to document their decision, whether it's "yes" or "no".
- Players can /sign issues to get over the 10,000 responses limit for every little thing that ever gets brought up, thus swamping the discussion process. It's one way to organize a sit-in or protest, if we're ****ed off at CCP.
Other comments:
- There is no peer review of CSM members once they've been elected, which is fine, it's that way in RL too. But the difference between an excellent CSM member and a poor one is too small: the poor one will only last one term, and the excellent will have two terms. So, from the CSM candidates point of view, why bother having an excellent performance?
- A forum discussion is not a good way to organize topics. Things drop off the first page, things get forgotten and brought up again after two months, and your forums don't have search capabilities or an indexing feature. I don't know if it's possible to interface the Knowledgebase categories and system into the CSM somehow, so that the topics discussed are arranged by categories like the Knowledgebase is.
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 22:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel I thought it was 5% of the player base.
That seems kind of strange. People should be participating in the voting process somehow if they want to be counted for any reasons.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Azia Burgi
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.05.09 23:20:00 -
[8]
call me a cynic but i think CCP is suffering from voter apathy. Why bother voting for something that we have already been told will have no real power.
the CSM should be appointed by CCP randomly from the playerbase. if you are going to rule with an iron fist, do it properly.
Azia Burgi http://azia.geekandproud.co.uk BP Profit Calculator EVE Cemetery |
Tome Cyno
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Posted - 2008.05.09 23:36:00 -
[9]
A 'support' system is in place to allow players to declare support for a topic in a CSM forum channel which will be opened after the election.
Makes it seem as if it will only be possible to vote for something, what about voting against a topic?!
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Syekuda
Caldari Relentless Storm Cartel
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Posted - 2008.05.10 01:07:00 -
[10]
here is what CCP Xhagen wrote in a dev blog: "It cannot be stressed enough that the council will not have any formal power within CCP; it will function solely as an advisory council to CCP by serving as a communication conduit between the playerbase and CCP."
After this, why should I vote....for recommending something at CCP ? yeah right... This is a waste of time. If CCP needs a council for a communications link between its subscribers and them, then theres something wrong. Whats the website or the forums for ? Hell, don't they serve that purpose ? The dev post something and the people answer. Is'nt that enough ?
This aint a flame, I just don't get that voting thing...its useless. For me, the forum is suppose to THE link between CCP and its players. How ? they post and they answer...both of them by the way. If it not enough, maybe they should review a better forum software...
besides that, theres a lot of ways to communicate with players and a council is not the way, its just a legal and moral way of bribing people to accept "your" views and opinion. How do you think Bush got elected ?? lol
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.05.10 03:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 10/05/2008 03:24:53
Originally by: Azia Burgi Why bother voting for something that we have already been told will have no real power.
Reason to vote is because each CSM rep will push his own agenda, and get answers to those questions he/she is interested in. So you want to pick one who matches YOUR interests. Otherwise, the only way to push your interests is to get 10,000 /signeds.
As for forum communication, they do not reply to the forums anymore, and in fact are shielded from them by the Mod team, who will summarize what we say and give them short reports. To which they may write a dev blog if they feel like answering.
I guess they want to pass the job of filtering what we say to the CSM volunteers.
As for the voting, it's possible the majority is holding until the last moment. It takes but a second to click a vote in, and discussions and campaigning are still going on.
Shrug, if the whole idea fails, it fails. That won't guarantee more communication on the forums from CCP, though.
Anyway, forum warriors ++ . A lot more content for them now, with goals and everything (and grind, too, they have to typewrite and put together documents and manage their faction with us).
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.10 06:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Haradgrim is that supposed to be 5% of the population or 50%, 5% seems pretty low..?
That is 10,000 votes. Twice the number of views as any one topic in the CSM forums.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.10 06:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Azia Burgi call me a cynic but i think CCP is suffering from voter apathy. Why bother voting for something that we have already been told will have no real power.
the CSM should be appointed by CCP randomly from the playerbase. if you are going to rule with an iron fist, do it properly.
Soft power is still power. Even if its not direct authority. The CSM will have plenty of that.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Gone'Postal
Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.05.10 09:29:00 -
[14]
Going off your rules there CCP.
Players have to make the post, keep it alive for a week, then Convince one or more CSM jockies to bring it up, then they have to vote to give it to CCP or not, and since they meet every 6 months add that time scale to CCP's already laughable time scales for doing anything.... it's going to be at least 6-12 MONTHS before it's even looked at by CCP and in that time you will be lucky to have the same CSM members on the councel due to the mandate time scales.
Why bother? Seriously ... whats the point.. Threadnaughts on the forums work just as well...(Market forum closeing anyone..??) Oh yeah forgot, 1 DEV, 1 member of staff (gogo P-X) has the balls to post on the forums anymore due to fear of the crying playerbase (I thank you). ever wonder why that is?
also this E-mailing topics in twice during that time, does that mean the malibox will be closed apart from X time frame between X dates ? (12am - 12pm on the 15 of july for example) or how will you inforce this rule ? i'd hate to see the CSM breaking there own rules, what if one of the CSM members internet goes down during that time frame, do they miss the voteing for that E-mail time frame? and has to wait? if they E-mail it in to CCP then it breaks rule 8 (topics need a majority vote before sending to CCP) so your breaking your own rules.
You could just be a little more active on your own forums that going off your actions you despise and CBA to update, have you stopped posting due to that fact it keeps eating your posts?
You say that you commit to give honest answers no offence but your staff are hardly trustworthy to begin with yet your asking for me to trust your answers and players in a game where you smile at scamming and backstabbing.
and it's not the players why your doing this, it's the money at the end of the month that goes into your banks and the fact you can no longer be bothered to post on the very forums for the game.
Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.05.10 09:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Azia Burgi call me a cynic but i think CCP is suffering from voter apathy. Why bother voting for something that we have already been told will have no real power.
the CSM should be appointed by CCP randomly from the playerbase. if you are going to rule with an iron fist, do it properly.
Soft power is still power. Even if its not direct authority. The CSM will have plenty of that.
to copy something from a thread above: here is what CCP Xhagen wrote in a dev blog: "It cannot be stressed enough that the council will not have any formal power within CCP; it will function solely as an advisory council to CCP by serving as a communication conduit between the playerbase and CCP."
The CSM is forum 2.0. You have as much power as a stack of post it notes. with free holidays. the CSM is a communication conduit, just like the forums were before CCP deserted them.
Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.05.10 10:35:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kerfira on 10/05/2008 10:49:53
Originally by: Gone'Postal ...just like the forums were before CCP deserted them.
CCP mainly gave up on the forums after a certain group of players started to use 'threadnaughting' when things didn't go their way.
That certain group of players also has as their defined goal to 'ruin EVE'.
Guess which group is trying the hardest to dominate CSM???
---
The CSM was mainly thought out be CCP as a PR stunt to deflect the bad publicity created by the sh*tstorm raised by a certain group (iirc in response to an issue that was later proven false). It was a bad idea then, and it still is. CCP should just rule with an iron fist, read the forums to stay informed on issues (answering is optional), and do as they think is best for the game. Players are inherently incapable of doing that (deciding what is best for the game) as they all have their own interests.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.05.10 12:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kerfira Stuff
Lets not turn this into a anti goon thread,
CCP gave up with the forums and are now basicly asking the players to do it with free holidays as payment. anything more than that is pure PR+BS
but yes I agree with you.
Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
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Kerfira
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.05.10 14:30:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Kerfira on 10/05/2008 14:31:41
Originally by: Gone'Postal Lets not turn this into a anti goon thread
Did I mention anyone specific?
Funny how most people will know from the description though.....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Cold Burn
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.12 13:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 10/05/2008 14:31:41
Originally by: Gone'Postal Lets not turn this into a anti goon thread
Did I mention anyone specific?
Funny how most people will know from the description though.....
Despite their well-known reputation, there candidates have come forth with some decent ideas and been very active in Jita Speaker forums.
I say give them a fair shot.
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.05.12 15:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cold Burn I say give them a fair shot.
Screw the fair shot. This isn't a WoW pink fuzzy bunnies community. Make them pay in every way possible for the stuff they've done.
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rciq
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Posted - 2008.05.13 06:36:00 -
[21]
How about a real blog next time? One more "CSM ftw" and people quit reading devblogs... or they quit already? :P |
Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.05.13 12:17:00 -
[22]
this will be a non-issue ... I voted just for the fun of it. I do not expect anything to change except CCP pointing the most vocal forum posters to the council effectively offloading their work on the CSM :-)
This game is moving quite fast while the development costs are increasing. 6 months can destroy this game in many ways. --- SIG --- Goumindong for CSM. |
Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.05.13 12:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: rciq How about a real blog next time? One more "CSM ftw" and people quit reading devblogs... or they quit already? :P
Yes. I agree.
Come on CCP, I don't know how many times I have to do this, but ...
MOAR DEV BLOGS! REAL ONES!
Like the quote says, one more self-congratulatory/please-buy-into-this-concept blog about the friggin' CSM and I will implode. Why implode, you ask? Because there is less mess.
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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CEO Saffron
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Posted - 2008.05.13 21:48:00 -
[24]
The CSM will be likely be elected based on alliance ties first and foremost as every alliance will seek to get a representive to the board to try and influence game development for thier needs which may not coincide with the entire community. Can you really see a large allaince representive agreeing with making something like reinforced mode shorter or not complaining about anti blobing changes. Sure they can bring it up for all of 30 seconds in a meeting but then move onto what matters to them or thier alliance.
To me the purpose of the CSM is to remove the devs the responcibility of answering to the community. The CSM will effectively serve as a Buffer meaning the devs only need to sweet talk a small number of people with specific intrests ppl rather than the whole community. Take the unpopular carrier nerf if cap ships get further nerf what are the CSM able to do to stop this...... express a concern.... the devs we'll do it anyway and the CSM cop the flak or if they are alliance directors tell ppl to stfu.....
I really hope the CSM are responcible people willing to stand upto poor changes even at the cost of thier council positions and not people looking to enhance thier egos.
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