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Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.12 09:46:00 -
[1]
Heya peeps,
I have decided to start a thread here, as I'm shakey on the whole fun v stats part of the game.
I've been rattling around Doimain, Devoid, Prov etc for about 3 years now, and have built an alliance that most don't know, and those that do dislike intently. Ok, the reason for that could be hostile approach to diplomacy and the fact that I really don't care for threats nor war decs, however recently I find myself becoming so obsessed by my own killbaord stats that the game is losing the fun factor that once it contained for me.
Instead of rallying my ships for a nice fleet op against the Mournival Alliance last night, and fighting 10 v 21 (as we were seriously undermanned at the time their blob arrived in system), I sit and debate how potential losses would appear on the killbaord.
I find myself reading threads involving the Noob Merc guys, bless um, and they announce their kills and losses, to which their losses outnumber their kills about 6 times, and yet people continuously hire them...
Is there more honour, or even fun for that matter, engaging outnumbered at the risk of losing a fleet and efficiency, or sitting there apearing scared in station, but preserving a good efficiency on the boards?
On a side note, I'm actually debating a website with a matching system for EVE wars (pending on level of interest). You see it strikes me that so many conflicts these days are either expensive to dec (for an alliance at 50 - 100mil per week), or unfair to one side or another. CRMSN currently has 7 wars in palce, and until yesterday encountered no resistance at all from any of our opponents. With a dedicated matching system run indepenantly, we could ensure that those alliances/corps that want proper fleet engagements could have mutually declared wars with similar sized opposition.
Before I actually spend time working out details, does anyone think this maybe a good idea? A typical example of my idea being:
CRMSN - Size 74 - Active fleets of around 10 - 15 (which could then be matched up to someone similar and would help avoid the bordom factor of chasing nano frigates over 40 jumps through empire)
Thoughts?
Tiger.
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Meleyn
Alternate Posting Services
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Posted - 2008.05.12 10:30:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Meleyn on 12/05/2008 10:32:13
Originally by: Tigerfish Torpedo
Instead of rallying my ships for a nice fleet op against the Mournival Alliance last night, and fighting 10 v 21 (as we were seriously undermanned at the time their blob arrived in system), I sit and debate how potential losses would appear on the killbaord.
It's getting really bad in EvE. Everyone is getting outblobbed. An enemy gang of 21! Unheard of! Surely must be some sort of uber blobbing nap train. Don't these people have any mercy for the node. EvE was not designed to handle these kind of obscene blobs.
I know you only wanted good fights, and got blobbed so badly. Sad times in New Eden when something like this is allowed to happen.
Sorry, but could not resist ---
Alternate Posting Services: when your main better STFU. |
Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.12 10:39:00 -
[3]
I don't blame ya, and I really don't mind getting blobbed (as it doesn't happen that often in truth). But talking to other alliance leads etc, it's amazing how many people are continusly 'bored out of their minds' as they sit around running missions.
Was only an idea
Tiger.
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Gama24
No Quarter. Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2008.05.12 10:42:00 -
[4]
Your priorities might be mixed when kbs stats are more important than having fun. But I guess some people are like that.
I would offer one piece of advise, though: If you want something similar, try pvp contests like CCP does. I have entered a few corp and alliance sponsored ones and they can be fun.
g24 |
Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.05.12 11:29:00 -
[5]
I would rather die in a fire while having some lulz and taking some people down with me than gank safely for the sake of killboard points. I once got 3 gangs killed in 1 day and managed to kill a badger II for the loss of about 20 ships, and I dont regret it because it was at least funny at how bad the fail was that day.
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Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.05.12 11:29:00 -
[6]
pwned that badger II so hard ..........
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Jari
Immortal Dawn The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.12 12:52:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jari on 12/05/2008 12:56:05 As you know Tiger, I was more than up for undocking last night in the face of a blob twice the size of our own and despite the fact my hyperion got melted quick time it was fun and I'm glad we did it. Loosing ships, as long as its not too many is a good thing, it helps to keep you on your toes.
I know people consider kb stats to be important but we must not ever forget that this is a game, we pay to have fun not worry about politics or stats, most of us get enough of that crud in real life.
Whilst I think most wars are executed for ingame objective type reasons, and should be. I do think it could be fun to be able to match up alliances for some war'ing fun. No POS to save or ransom, no carebears to grind into the ground, no stations to camp for hours(bored out of your mind), just pure PVP mayhem matched up with similarly sized fleets. Sounds fraking awesome.
So /signed!
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FellRaven
Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.12 13:07:00 -
[8]
Don't take this the wrong way but instead of Empire Wars why don't you take roaming gangs into low sec or 0.0? There are several NPC controlled 0.0 areas if you don't want to take sec hit in low sec.
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Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.12 13:38:00 -
[9]
FellRaven, I appreciate your question, but feel as though we're not strong enough to compete in 0.0. I mean, we've upset Sylph, CVA, CSA, -7-, Goons, IAC, and by living within Devoid/Domain, have shot ourselves in the foot (at least as far as 0.0 is concerned). Certainly, longer ranged ops could be possible to NPC contolled 0.0, but even then the inhabbitants only need one mothership or Titan and we'd be out of our depth. You see, we're not big enough to dent a capital fleet, but we are big enough that most corps in Empire just run and hide.
To Jari, I'm proud of ya m8y. I really am. It was a gamble with that Hyper, most certainly, especially considering the force Mournival formed up.
Tiger
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Aveng3X
The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.12 14:04:00 -
[10]
As I said about 5 minutes after Mournival left local, at least you just made their guys pay for half a Megathron. I'm just sorry I wasn't able to be of much use, besides letting you guys actually know there was a 15 (and growing) blob next door :P
Yes, perhaps by being mercs, stats mean more to us than your average "for fun" PvP corp as obviously this dictates how confident a potential client would be in hiring us. But at the same time, you will lose ships. It's who has the tactics and the luck on the day that counts, and unfortunately that wasn't us. But hey...revenge is sweet =D
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.05.12 14:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tigerfish Torpedo I've been rattling around Doimain, Devoid, Prov etc for about 3 years now
hahahahahahhahahah
Quote:
-Tiger.
lion ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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DiaBlo UK
Precision Engineering Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.12 14:26:00 -
[12]
stations suck tbh.
nuff said?
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Skjorta
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Posted - 2008.05.12 14:41:00 -
[13]
Is blob synonymous with any group of enemies even slightly larger than you now?
10 vs 21? Seems reasonable. Just means you have more targets. Now if it was 10 vs 75...then you would have been blobbed.
People hire mercs for how much they can kill and disrupt the target, they don't care how many of them die in the process.
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Hazrah Ni'Kunrah
Amarr Asylum Logistics
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Posted - 2008.05.12 15:14:00 -
[14]
Although its a good idea, the whole reason people run is because they don't want to fight because they don't have anything to protect except the ship that they strip mined all of [insert high sec system here].
If you were to gain standings with a 0,0 entity, you could join roaming gangs with other pilots, and have a blast.
People act like 0.0 is one big lag/blob fest... if you get blobbed you either didn't have a good scout or your fleet was moving too slow.
for the record blob = at least 3 to 1 odds imo. Anything under that is manageable depending on the situation.
Killboard stats are great, but the whole point of eve is that sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose some. I feel more respect for those that fight regardless of the odds then those that hide in stations but have 100% kb efficiency.
morale of the story: Your idea would be useful, but something similar to this is going to be out with empyrean age expansion. |
bigred monkey
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.12 23:00:00 -
[15]
very interesting concept, dont know if many would be up for it seeing as how so many run from war decs anyway, but still would give people an idea of who would be ideal for them too fight. my concern would be if say we posted we were loking to fight a 70man group with 15 man fleets, whats to stop someone in a large entity say -a- coming in and overpowering us as they know we are small. (this is no insult to -a-, just using reference as i have great deal of respect for their pvp ability)
i also think a lot of the running is becuase people spent millions on there ships and to be honest the best alwasy use t2 ships and fittings, and there is just no insurance, no safenet. the mission runners get nice payouts for there b/ships through insurance but c'mon 7mil for a hac that probably cost you 130mil inc fittings. so you are down 123mil for lolz and then have to grind missions or mine to make isk back, or worse rat!! the moment you do that people no longer take you seriously as a pvp force. i believe if they were to balance ships with insurance payouts closer to real life then poeple would be more willing to risk ships and fight more. a simple solution would be to say....type of ship.....class of ship....variant....insurance could then be varied according to the ship type and not hull class. i think this would encourage more people to fight...and as for modules i always follow a simple rule...dont fit it unless you can afford to loose it.
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Gemini Tordanis
Caldari Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.12 23:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hazrah Ni'Kunrah
Killboard stats are great, but the whole point of eve is that sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose some. I feel more respect for those that fight regardless of the odds then those that hide in stations but have 100% kb efficiency.
For the record I really take this statement to heart. It reminds me of Corporate-America... When your company starts to worry more about numbers, reports, statistics, etc - This generally leads to higher expectations, and more strict rules. It becomes a numbers game, and rather than having fun, people are expected to work within the limits.
I think some system of balanced PvP warfare would be good addition as a tool for tournaments and exhibitions - but nothing more. To be honest the heart of PvP, is that feeling that youre about to be blown to hell, and having to think your way out of the situation. I love the uncertainty, without it - PvP turns into Mission running. There is no balance in war. Though, perhaps this syetem would be a way around war, and instead of making everyone your enemy, you exhibitionally fight another corp/alliance.
You all may be thinking psh... 0.0/low sec will get you that. Well Simply put, Tiger is right - you are either friends with the people that own 0.0, or their capital fleet assaults you. The leader of MC stated it perfectly - "Alliances today with less than 1200-1500 members can't realistically hold their own space unless they team up with others". And with as many reds as CRMSN has, that rules 0.0 out. Low-sec would be a more suitable choice - except your 'exhibitions' penalize your security status... eventually dwindling your access to high sec. And not to mention the Caps that may own you down there.
An alternative way to PvP would seem logical to have for when a couple corps of equal power (notice I did not say size) who are on 'the list' can mutually get together and blow the snot out of eachother, without having to pay fees and search for targets. Otherwise we're restricted to what the Yulai Convention wants.
My question would be this - would it be more like a pilot-slot restriction... or more as a ship-limitation much like the Great Alliance Wars' point system.
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Gungankllr
Caldari Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.12 23:54:00 -
[17]
Well, usually when somebody loses a fight (especially if it's of epic proportions) people come here with alts and make all sorts of threads about it.
Maybe I'm a wierdo, but that's why I fly cheap ships. I take breaks from PVP when I get burned out, but for the most part I just go out there and try to kill whoever.
Yeah, I'm probably going to die 98% of the time, but at least it was a challenge.
When I'm leading a gang, I'm WAY more likely than not to just warp in/jump in/log in on somebody, just to get a fight.
Odds aren't a big deal, Because you should figure that If you're in 0.0 you're going to die every time you do anything.
Anyhow, people do obsess about killboards, ratios and fittings way too much. Supposed to be about having fun, not sitting with a spreadsheet and calculator trying to figure out the K/D ratio.
If you want to try something different, try going out in an all-destroyer gang, or all Industrials... Just do something different every now and then to have a good laugh.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.05.13 00:00:00 -
[18]
If you can't win actual fights outright, try and win in another way - ISK damage inflicted is a popular one, sacrificing say 10 T1 cruisers to gank an enemy Vagabond and pod that may be worth far more.
Or, you could ask for Revan's help .
Goal Line Blitz, an American Football MMO Vote Jade for CSM. |
Hazrah Ni'Kunrah
Amarr Asylum Logistics
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Posted - 2008.05.13 00:34:00 -
[19]
also remember this.
"He who holds the field is victorious"
The only reason for this is because they get your loot.
There are exceptions however, such as they might kill some of your gang, but you killed a full gang twice your size and their mothership, in which case, they failure cascade and caod explodes. *Dramatization.
(now who does that sound like..... ) |
TempSniper
UnderDog Industries Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.05.13 12:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tigerfish Torpedo Heya peeps,
I find myself reading threads involving the Noob Merc guys, bless um, and they announce their kills and losses, to which their losses outnumber their kills about 6 times, and yet people continuously hire them... Tiger.
Noob Merc guys don't fight unless they have a blob themselfs that out number your fleet. Atleast 3 - 1
I found that out yestarday when I got 64 kills on them ranging from pods, newb ships, frigs, cruisers, bc's, bs's.
They'll overwelm you with newb ships. That yeah I lost only 2 ships the whole day. Never where the odds in my favor.
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Alexy C
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Posted - 2008.05.13 12:28:00 -
[21]
some fact's Mournival has a contract against an Corp witch fled after some days in the 'secure haven'from crimson. not more or less to say here Kaminjosvig Mournival Alliance |
Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.13 12:41:00 -
[22]
Alexy, we need little facts about the original intent of this contract, afterall my gripe wasn't intended to smack against Mournival, but state facts in general regarding EVE combat (as I currently see it evolve).
Mournival, like every other party, doesn't seem to engage outnumbered. I won't criticise that for we play it the same way, but do not act all high and mighty without understanding the reason behind my initial post. Whilst stating facts, Mournival had 6 ships last night, and we had 5. We undocked, and Mournival wouldn't fight us. Instead, the Mournival fleet ran off to their staging point and picked up a fleet of 32 ships. 32 ships for our 5? A little overkill maybe, and certainly not odds I'm willing to fight against. So, Mounival within their 32 man fleet sits there and smack talks us in local, when quite seriously, I challenge any of the Mournival fleet to bring us a fight under reversed conditions.
That said, I'm straying from my point. Yes, it was a contract for Mournival, and until last night, we'd had no smack talk at all from the Mournival Alliance and I have no intention of allowing you to derail this thread with arguments behind the reason this war began.
Tiger.
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Conq Er
Sweetrock Mining
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Posted - 2008.05.13 13:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gemini Tordanis
Originally by: Hazrah Ni'Kunrah
Killboard stats are great, but the whole point of eve is that sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose some. I feel more respect for those that fight regardless of the odds then those that hide in stations but have 100% kb efficiency.
For the record I really take this statement to heart. It reminds me of Corporate-America...
Just stop posting.. seriously.
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Alexy C
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Posted - 2008.05.13 13:16:00 -
[24]
So now to the gameplay, its all about money PVP'er dont like PVE and in PVP you cannot make good money if you loose ships . So people prefer not to loose there ships if possibel. And to engange(if you have a chance) or not engage (if you dont have a chance) is a part of the game and has alot to do with evaluate the fight. And it will set the time when you have to go back to PVE.
Kaminjosvig Mournival Alliance |
Jacko21
Kaminjosvig Mournival Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.13 13:24:00 -
[25]
I agree alot of people go more for stats these days than fun it seems.
What is a fun gang though? Some people feel more comfortable in a fast roaming gang of 10 than a fleet of 20 BS. I know that I get more enjoyment out of a fast moving gang than a slow BS gang, I think EVE is slow as it is when coming to travelling and pvp.
I do however need to point out from an alliance sized 74 - Active fleets of around 10 - 15. Decing another alliance which you no has alot more than you expect a larger aponant. What do you do in these cases? You use tactics such as Logistics which allow you to fight outnumbered.
I acually prefer solo pvp but its dead. You can not roam in a large ship these days or fear the "gank" I got tackled by one of your crows and got blobbed 10 vs my Domi. I then came back time and time again in something smaller more nimble to get chased out by 8 vs 1.
When the Nano Nerf comes what will people fly to avoid the dreaded blob then? You cannot blame corps & alliances but look at EVE it needs to evolve now there is more players online than ever.
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Natasha Donnan
Caldari Kaminjosvig Mournival Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.13 13:34:00 -
[26]
Tigerfish,
I have a lot of sympathy for your post. The comments at Mournival are a sideways swipe but there is little mileage for you or us to dicuss it and I hope my colleagues will resist the temptation to do so. Those comments could be made about many of Eve's Alliances and corporations including your own as you well know. Who hasn't had their name on a 10 vs 1 battleship gank after all?
There are several issues that need to be disentangled in order to grasp what you seem to be driving at. I have a lot of sympathy for your points. With respect to any war we follow our instructions to the letter and at times like the present it does not actually involve a kill death ratio. As Mercs we talk to the customer, get their objectives and check any changes in the situation and then figure out the best way to satisfy them. If that means forming up a major blob we will do it because it is what we are paid to do.
In relation to comments in local, we try to keep it down but from time to time people say things - once more who is most innocent in this respect? I hope you can accept our apology.
In relation to fighting outnumbered. We have often had to do this. If you check our kill board and go back to our contract against GIS you will see we often fought against gangs significantly larger (by this we mean 15 versus 25 and more). We stood and took our losses and in the end we fulfilled our contract which had nothing to do with effeciency. Our objective was something completely different and we delivered it to a very happy customer. So whats the real point here?
I think what your looking for is even fights. If your trying to get that in Mercenary work your mistaken. It is not going to happen. Your idea is a good one and I completely support your sentiment. I have often toyed with setting up an 'Eve Fight Club'. Were the participants in wars would specify and agree the rules of engagement and do so with the goal of having even scraps. A kind of blood sport. The problem is if it becomes too stage managed then you lose that element of surprise and the adrenaline rush goes. So it is a very difficult nut to *****.
I have not managed to think through exactly how it could be achieved but I would certainly be willing to talk it through with you more. Current contract aside - we all agree with one thing. This is a great game and it is best played in space and not in stations.
/salute
Nat _________________________________________ The Girl with the really Starey eyes. http://www.kaminjosvig.org/
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Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.13 13:53:00 -
[27]
My respects to you Nat, for your post certainly understands the intended nature of my thread. I can understand, naturally, that this contract is simply business, and would love to talk to you about the idea of a fight club or something similar in more detail.
Jacko, yes, I agree with your post too. Your Domi jumped into our fleet, and so was taken, but for the record I actually do miss single engagements myself. Combat has changed so much (in favour of the blob) since I started playing.
I have a lot of respect for Mournival, for when I saw that they were to be my enemy for a second time, I was actually excited by the prospect of having some decent fights. Perhaps we may still see some, but at the numbers you guys form up, I can't justify sending my fleet to their doom with odds of 5 on 1 (for example).
Thanks to everyone that mailed me in game (and responded here) regarding this thread. Is certainly nice to see such great support for the idea.
Regards,
Tiger.
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Smith
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.13 13:58:00 -
[28]
EVE wouldnt be EVE if it was organized.
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Wusti
The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.05.14 02:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Smith EVE wouldnt be EVE if it was organized.
QFTW.
I do have tot ake exception with a couple of things you have said. Firstly, NPC 0.0 is not true 0.0 - typically cap ships are reserved for POS defense or major fleet ops. 90% of the time you will find small-medium roaming gangs rather than blobbage week in and week out. Thats in Syndicate where we live (and why we live here tbh). _______________________
Welcome to The New Era
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Porgy
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.14 03:09:00 -
[30]
Stats mean different things to different people. Take Burn Eden's recent venture into Geminate. They racked up gnarly KB stats by camping a gateway system into Gem while the majority of our alliance was out in Drones fighting an altogether different war with different people and different terms of success. They succeeded in terms of ganking a lot of our pilots and overall were very pleased with themselves by the outcome numbers. However from the standpoint of Smashkill it was an overall disappointment since we were for the most part elsewhere and their campaign had a negligible effect on our alliance. So in the end we ask were the crazy KB efficiencies worth it? Can you really rate a win/lose when one side dictates success by KB stats and the other dictates it by claiming sovereignty? That all comes down to how you like to enjoy the game you shell out money for each month. Keyword: you.
**This post is not meant to be a flaimbait towards BE, thats all for a different thread.** _______________________
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