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Why ECM drones should never have been introduced... (overpowered?)

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Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:15:00 - [1] [whine] ok, i like a good fight as much as the next person and yes this probably is a 'whine' thread, but i dont care! Giving a battleship the ability to ECM any other ship was the worst idea CCP ever had. Think of a BS that doesnt have a large combat drone bay, eg: Raven. The raven doesnt primairily use drones for damage (especially now with uber torps) so instinctively a pilot would throw in 5 medium ECM drones. Now imagine a ship with a larger drone bay, eg: Geddon or Megathron. Replacing your x5 Heavy T2 combat drones for ECM drones would be madness! However in my experience x5 medium ECM drones seem to cause far more 'lolage' than x5 heavy combat drones ever would, why is this? because they are far too powerful. Backup Arrays, medium slot lolage: What modules would you say are essential for solo pvp? Well you are always going to need a microwarp drive or you are dead in the water from the start. A scrambler would probably be a good idea to stop people running off, and you might as well throw on a web with that as trying to hit small or medium sized things in a BS isn't fun without a webber. And if you have a microwarp drive you know you are going to need a cap injector, especially with people fitting all these neutralizers. Thats 4 slots gone. But wait, Amarr and Gallente rarely have more than 4 medium slots, so fitting a backup array will start to gimp your setup. But the big 'LOL' behind all this is that backup arrays dont work anyway! Interesting Scenario: I know they have those naughty ECM drones, so ill fit my backup array on my ship. And i know they might have more than one set so ill overload my module to get some extra boostieness. Game on. Jammed twice by just two sets of MEDIUM ECM drones with an OVERLOADED backup ECCM. Possible solution: move backup arrays to fill that useless highslot almost all BSs have rather than wasting a med slot on something that doesnt even work. Jamming Cycle times: 20 seconds? most fights in eve are won or lost in under a minute, by the time you add on the relocking time its close to half a minute. Half a minute is half your DPS, which means your ship ends up doing lol damage and being tanked by an ibis. 25-30 seconds is far too long considering the ammount of times you can get jammed by ECM drones. Possible solution: Reduce the jamming cycle time to <10 seconds so that if you need to use them to run away from the fight you can but not long enough to remove 1/2 of soemones DPS from a fight Skills required: Its a pathetic ammount of skills required to actually use ECM drones. but not that this really matters anyway. Because right after they have finished ECM drones skill, they go and train for a falcon anyway. Everyone and their grandma flys a falcon these days. Possible solution: Just remove ECM drones from the game and then everyone can start training for a falcon from day one. Talking of Falcons: I was in my moros which has a sensor strength of roughly an overloaded ECCM on a megathron. I got jammed by a falcon for about 2/3 cycles (40s/60s). Lets consider how this could happen. The sneaky falcon pilot had fitted more than one ECM module on his ship! When the devs wanted you to be able to have a chance of being able to lock things when being ECM'd they didnt really mean it. Say his Jammer has a 50% chance of jamming the big sensor strength of my moros, you would think i would be able to lock 50% of the time? WRONG. becuase he is sneaky and has fitted 5 jammers on his falcon i can only lock 0% of the time. yay. Implications: Solo PVP vs falcon or rook = just testing your tank. BRUTEFORCE VID
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:16:00 - [2] Ace up their sleeves': Also because drones are stored inside the drone bay before a fight you never know what you are getting youself in for. I mean its all good and fun to go in shouting 'leeerrooooy' which i do on many occasions. But to shout leeroy and sit there not being able to lock anything is pretty boring imho. You know when you see a falcon or a rook you expect to be perma-jammed and die only firing 2 shots of your cool faction ammo, but not when you see a typhoon. Get what im saying? Possible solution: A skill that can be trained that increases your scan strength by 15% per level. What does this mean for solo PVP?: I am one of those people that likes to come and try to kill half of your 5 man gang by myself because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Investing time into skills, modules, tactics and my ship allow me to even think about attempting this. But if i get jammed for even one cycle (minimum of 25-28 seconds) id say im pretty dead in the water. So for those people who like to go solo in the world of eve, even if one member of a 3 man gang has atleast one set of medium ECM drones, well we are dead. But what is even more annoying is that if you spend the time trying to kill ECM drones you are gonna die anyway because you have wasted about a minute trying to kill them... its like playing rock scissors with an archeologist. If they whip out ECM drones, which they invariably do, disengage and jump out, or die. Another solution is to get another gang mate, but then they get another gang mate to fight 2 vs 6. This suddenly escalates into everything wrong with eve. 100 players vs 100 players with multiple doomsdays and unbearable lagz. yayz. [/Whine] BRUTEFORCE VID
posteroid im right your wrong	Posted - 2008.05.14 12:01:00 - [3] I like ecm drones they make battle more interesting and tbh they stop fights from becoming total slug fests. I do not think that ECM is overpowered i think that the ppl who do not bring it in their fleets or do not know how to use it properly need to train up.
Jianwei	Posted - 2008.05.14 12:04:00 - [4] <-- Features and Ideas Discussion Sounds like you want ECM to be a defensive weapon that doesnt work most of the time. A specialized ECM boat should be able to take someone completely out of a fight, thats the whole point. They aren't solopwnmobiles. They are gang/fleet support weapons.
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.14 12:20:00 - [5] Edited by: Ace101 on 14/05/2008 12:21:50 Originally by: posteroid I do not think that ECM is overpowered i think that the ppl who do not bring it in their fleets or do not know how to use it properly need to train up. so you dont think that this ruins solo PVP? if i fight 4 people they can technically carry 4 times as much ECM as me. meaning i cant even fight at all. so solo PVP doesnt exist? wait till i render this video tonight, it demonstrates why ECM is frustrating. Originally by: Jianwei A specialized ECM boat should be able to take someone completely out of a fight, thats the whole point. They aren't solopwnmobiles. They are gang/fleet support weapons. fair enough, but getting taken out of the fight by a typhoon who is using one medium set of ECM drones is just silly. BRUTEFORCE VID
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Star Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.05.14 12:50:00 - [6] Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 14/05/2008 12:56:51 Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 14/05/2008 12:52:27 Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 14/05/2008 12:51:21 ECM-Drones: use Smartbombs "Everyone and their grandma flys a falcon these days.", ehh thats why I see so many top-dmg dealing Falcons today. Usually you have a healthy proportion of gun to ecm ships in your gang today. No, Falcons are pretty well balanced. "What modules would you say are essential for solo pvp?" , you demanding a solo wtpwn machine able to counter every kind of attack ?? That would certainly destroy many of possibilities in Eve. Yesterday I had a nice fight including heavy use of ECM (drones & dedicated ECM). I was flying a Rupture, my oponents a AC Maller & Blackbird. Blackbird was operating at his optimal. I attacked this Maller and dropped ECM drones on him, than mwded away from him. Maller followed me and after some km we got out of Blackbirds targeting range. Maller had a smartbomb fitted so I recalled my ecm drones and killed it. Short after Maller poped, Blackbird came out of warp very close to our location. I droped ECM drones on him and fired 1-2 rounds from my Ac, than he jammed me. My drones were still working on him so he decided to disengage. Btw. I didn't fit any EECM module. Without ECM all this would never happend. Those guys would never tried to kill me. They trusted in ECM and lost. They lost, because ECM isn't a I-win button, you still needs guns to do the dirty work.
posteroid im right your wrong	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:52:00 - [7] Edited by: posteroid on 14/05/2008 13:54:01 Originally by: Ace101 Originally by: posteroid I do not think that ECM is overpowered i think that the ppl who do not bring it in their fleets or do not know how to use it properly need to train up. so you dont think that this ruins solo PVP? if i fight 4 people they can technically carry 4 times as much ECM as me. meaning i cant even fight at all. so solo PVP doesnt exist? Stop drama bombing it as its hardly as bad as you want ppl to think. A solo pvper picks his targets carefully and will engage knowing his choice of ship and fit will win the engagement (unless the target has buddies nearby) if that target happens to have ecm drones then thats the rub cos without them the solo pvper wins every time unless others join in. Gang fights with ewar are even more fun as it brings even more tactical and interesting permutations to combat.
Dave Tehsulei Atomic Battle Penguins	Posted - 2008.05.14 15:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 14/05/2008 15:02:10 ECM belongs on dedicated ecm boats no where else. Multispecs were nerfed heavily because everyone was fitting one in their mids and it was an instant win button, we have a similar situation with ecm drones. More and more people are filling up their drone bays with these things. We now have ships that do massive damage, have huge tanks and ecm on top. It only takes one lucky jam from an ecm drone to turn the tide in a fight 1v1 or otherwise. There are plenty of ships that can fit ecm drones in their bays without sacrificing much in the way of drone damage Vaga's, sac's, ravens or tempests for example. While we're at it why not bring both ! fly and typhoon and bring your full set of heavy drones and some light ecm drones just incase the fight doesn't go your way. Blind luck should not determine the outcome of battles. ------- Atomic Battle Penguins Forum \| Website
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:10:00 - [9] ECM drones do involve sacrificing DPS, and they are destroyable (quite easily with a smartbomb). But despite that, I'd be inclined to agree that they're just a bit to easy to use, and a bit too effective for the dronebay they take. Maybe if they were to take more bandwidth, it'd be less a problem. But unlike all the other ewar drones, ECM drones don't have stacking penalty. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:44:00 - [10] its all very well saying 'smartbomb' but are you gonna want to be using one of those in empire or low sec? just incase you hit the billboard. i dont see why they havnt invented a smartbomb that only affects drones and is ok for use in empire on drones that are aggroing on you BRUTEFORCE VID

Gus Preston Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:50:00 - [11] Think about what your saying....smartbomb... Do any of you neebs actually solo pvp? what happens if your in empire? There should be a skill to increase your sensor strength or make the eccm actually work...right now its pish.
dojocan81	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Ace101 Everyone and their grandma flys a falcon these days. maybe thats the problem ... so how could we fix this ?? i know it, i know it allow only Caldari's to fly this ship .. and to be honest ... all others t2 ships too .... make this to all races ingame and lets see if ppl start a new character only to fly the UB0r caldari ECM ships aka ownmobile... problem solved kk, to be honest .. i dont play as long as maybe some others here EVE ... but the whole time i spend time here at the forums i hear only exact this quoted statement ...and iam tired of it... so please please CCP... change the skill system to Race specific ships only or change ECCM to a script for sensor booster modules, b/c the most ppl who whine about ECM dont fit a ECCM module .. b/c its a wasted slot :P thx
posteroid im right your wrong	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:46:00 - [13] Originally by: dojocan81 Originally by: Ace101 Everyone and their grandma flys a falcon these days. maybe thats the problem ... so how could we fix this ?? i know it, i know it allow only Caldari's to fly this ship .. and to be honest ... all others t2 ships too .... make this to all races ingame and lets see if ppl start a new character only to fly the UB0r caldari ECM ships aka ownmobile... problem solved kk, to be honest .. i dont play as long as maybe some others here EVE ... but the whole time i spend time here at the forums i hear only exact this quoted statement ...and iam tired of it... so please please CCP... change the skill system to Race specific ships only or change ECCM to a script for sensor booster modules, b/c the most ppl who whine about ECM dont fit a ECCM module .. b/c its a wasted slot :P thx gratz on the worst idea ever.
dojocan81	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:53:00 - [14] Originally by: posteroid Originally by: dojocan81 Originally by: Ace101 Everyone and their grandma flys a falcon these days. maybe thats the problem ... so how could we fix this ?? i know it, i know it allow only Caldari's to fly this ship .. and to be honest ... all others t2 ships too .... make this to all races ingame and lets see if ppl start a new character only to fly the UB0r caldari ECM ships aka ownmobile... problem solved kk, to be honest .. i dont play as long as maybe some others here EVE ... but the whole time i spend time here at the forums i hear only exact this quoted statement ...and iam tired of it... so please please CCP... change the skill system to Race specific ships only or change ECCM to a script for sensor booster modules, b/c the most ppl who whine about ECM dont fit a ECCM module .. b/c its a wasted slot :P thx gratz on the worst idea ever. i know , thx
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:39:00 - [15] Originally by: dojocan81 stuff you completely missed the point. ECM drones can be put in any ship! so no your idea wont solve anything. and yes i tried ECCM, it doesnt work! what good is a counter measure that doesnt counter? BRUTEFORCE VID
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.14 20:37:00 - [16] They are fine as is.
posteroid im right your wrong	Posted - 2008.05.14 21:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Ace101 Originally by: dojocan81 stuff you completely missed the point. ECM drones can be put in any ship! so no your idea wont solve anything. and yes i tried ECCM, it doesnt work! what good is a counter measure that doesnt counter? It counters but not 100% its like fitting a tank it may reduce how often you get jammed just like resists and reppers reduce damage but eccm is not a iwin against ecm button just like tank is not a i win against dmg.
Chi Quan Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.14 21:20:00 - [18] pure perception, ecm is fine, BUT it is as much a on/off thing as a web is for a nono (btw, i hate nanos just as much). you can NOT SEE the cycles that have gone in your favor when you equip eccm. have you ever calculated the chance to jam with 5 light drones? i have, let me tell you it is not big at all. chances are however, that you get jamed 3 out of 3 tries, resulting in a totally frustrating experience. it's as odd as having a beltrat in a 0.8 system drop an implant. still, it happens. also note that quite a lot of normally strong gank ships have very poor ewar resistances (ever seen the sensor strength of a vagabond?) so, chill out. think of it as being suicided in highsec. ---- You don't have to like it - I don't blame you for not liking it.
RevrendStyx Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Ace101 Ace up their sleeves': Possible solution: A skill that can be trained that increases your scan strength by 15% per level. 75% at lv. 5 You think thats a little much dude?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.15 18:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Ace101 Originally by: dojocan81 stuff you completely missed the point. ECM drones can be put in any ship! so no your idea wont solve anything. and yes i tried ECCM, it doesnt work! what good is a counter measure that doesnt counter? ECCM makes you 50% less likely to get jammed. I can think of no other module that offers such a boon - another gun doesn't mean I'm 50% more likely to get a kill, another tank slot doesn't give me a 50% better chance to live and so on. If there is a problem with ECCM it ISN'T in the power of the module - indeed most people don't actually use the damn things in the first place (but generally everyone who complains about ECM ships have used piles of them and they still get jammed until they get bored and log), it's the simple fact that the module provides a singular and very specialized function. If there were to be a change, I'd advocate removing ECCM from the game as an item and making it a script for a sensor booster. There have been many MANY threads about the various EWAR systems available in the game and I for one am in favor of simplifying the current systems making EWAR more flexible and less utterly reliant on the current mechanism of rock, confetti and pickle jars.

Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.16 11:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Derek Sigres ECCM makes you 50% less likely to get jammed. whether you get jammed 2/4 or 1/4, 25-28 seconds is still enough DPS in eve to cripple your fight. most small scale fights in eve last just over a minute. that means you are jammed for about a 1/3rd of the fight. so fitting a backup array is hardly worth the slot useage if you are gonna get jammed at some point anyway. BRUTEFORCE VID
posteroid im right your wrong	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:26:00 - [22] Ewar (drones or ships/modules) is a great tool in eve, all aspects of it add many more levels to gang fighting from what ships you bring to how you fit and obviously how you fly. If anything i think damp ships should be boosted to the same range as the falcon and other ecm ships thus introducing another level of complexity to gang vs gang combat. Drones are ok and provide an option against a single tackler to either escape by breaking the lock of the tackler or to reduce the dps received from a hostile ship for a limited time per successful cycle. So all in all handy little fellas to have in your drone bay in many and varied situations Remember that if the falcon misses a jam on any ship with adequate range and even poor dps it is either dead or it will need to warp off and warp back in again and it is always the primary target for opposition gangs.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Ace101 Originally by: Derek Sigres ECCM makes you 50% less likely to get jammed. whether you get jammed 2/4 or 1/4, 25-28 seconds is still enough DPS in eve to cripple your fight. most small scale fights in eve last just over a minute. that means you are jammed for about a 1/3rd of the fight. so fitting a backup array is hardly worth the slot useage if you are gonna get jammed at some point anyway. so what you are saying is you fail? amirite? drones work fine, lo HP, gang mates need to help you, EvE isn't a boxin match, BS's have plenty of space to fit multi-fits, sounds like someone got pwn'd and didnt like it
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.17 00:17:00 - [24] When the big ECM nerf happened in Revelations 1 ECM drones where overlooked since not that many people where useing them. Why bother considering the uber ECM mods we had back then? So we now have a ECM gizmo (the drones) still useing RMR (AKA: ECM Hell) numbers for jamming power. Cut the jam strenght in half then buff the other EWar drone types that are currently lacking and be done with it. The skill to use these drones is still highly usefull by itself. On to ECCM. It works better than you give it credit for and I say that as an experienced EWAR pilot.
Mantalari Altis Caldari Half-light Security SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.17 05:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Ace101 whether you get jammed 2/4 or 1/4, 25-28 seconds is still enough DPS in eve to cripple your fight. most small scale fights in eve last just over a minute. that means you are jammed for about a 1/3rd of the fight. so fitting a backup array is hardly worth the slot useage if you are gonna get jammed at some point anyway. Hmm... I think I've spotted your problem. Let's review: You've already decided that your fit needs a MWD, a scrambler, a webifier, and a cap booster, so you're four mid slots down. You're PvPing against groups of 5 or so solo. You take about half a minute to lock. Conclusions/suggestions: You're trying to act as your own tackler because you insist on solo PvP. This is costing you two mid slots. Can't you manage to find one friend in an inty to tackle for you? Why the fixation on solo play? You're slugging it out against 5 opponents, which based on lock times are in ships with significantly smaller sig radii than your ships resolution is able to handle. So what, you're in a BS fighting a bunch of frigates? Ok, maybe some cruisers? Is there some other reason that your lock times suck so badly? What about your own drone bay? Got anything in that? Lemme guess. You're soloing in a mega? That's got some decent drone bay... no ECM drones of your own? I mean if they are such devastating weapons, why not use them yourself? Oh wait, I just realized. You're flying solo. Best you're likely to do is stop one of the 5 smaller ships that you are fighting. Oh wait, you mentioned a moros... So are you fighting cruisers in a moros? There is no fitting tactic in Eve that I've seen for which there is not a good counter. The catch is that without knowing what your opponent has up their sleeve, you can't be sure that what you're fitting will stand up against what they have. ECM drones, on their own are only going to stop you from WTFPWNing them with your Moros. Sorry. I don't have a lot of sympathy for a guy that wants to fly a dread solo to go fight a pile of non-cap ships in the first place. I just might have come off a little too harsh here. Here's a plan. How about you drop the webbie from your mega for some webbie drones and regain a mid slot? Or maybe throw some nice T2 heavies at the guy floating the ECM drones as soon as you do manage to get a lock? Or are you in the Moros? Go buy a carrier to kill noobs in. Then you can have all sorts of drones and fighters too.
Mary MooseTipper	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:36:00 - [26] How about ECCM/sensor booster drones that work in a similar way to sensor linking?
G Mooo Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:56:00 - [27] ok... here we go. I've flows quite a bit of pvp on both tq and sisi. On sisi i've tested fights vs ecm boats, and vs ecm drones... if they have ecm drones, you die (provided they have dps of some sort). honestly, astarte vs astarte... astarte gets perma jammed by 5x med ecm drones. mega vs raven, mega gets jammed by 5x medium ecm drones. you MAY be able to beat it by fitting eccm, but it still hurts. So, should ecm drones be removed from the game? i don't think they should, neither should ecm boats. But maybe lowering the chances of ecm drones might be a good idea (or the cycle time). Another thing that "should" be fixed is the lack of notification, you loose lock, and you have no way to see if you get jammed for another cycle, or not; thus making it harder to make good decisions on whether to run, or stay. But tbh, i do think it is slightly overpowered when an abaddon can jam an enemy BS with 5x med ecm drones as well as it can (especially considering the abaddon's insane tank and nice dps). so, don't remove them, just modify them (the cycle time, and notification of how long you are jammed). PS solo pvp is the best way to get an adrenaline high in eve. ;) THAT'S why he does it... cause its fun. Ace also pointed out the whole, if you bring 2 guys, their 5 man gang goes to 6, 7, 8 people (not helping your odds any). :)
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.18 10:49:00 - [28] Edited by: Ace101 on 18/05/2008 10:48:56 Originally by: Mantalari Altis You're trying to act as your own tackler because you insist on solo PvP. This is costing you two mid slots. Can't you manage to find one friend in an inty to tackle for you? Why the fixation on solo play? omg there are two of them, we now need 6 people instead of 4. Originally by: Mantalari Altis So what, you're in a BS fighting a bunch of frigates? Ok, maybe some cruisers? Is there some other reason that your lock times suck so badly? 20 seconds jam time + 5-8 seconds locking time = 25-28 seconds. Originally by: Mantalari Altis What about your own drone bay? Got anything in that? yup, ever tried to kill a raven with x5 zerkers? Originally by: Mantalari Altis Oh wait, you mentioned a moros... So are you fighting cruisers in a moros? yeah it is extreme lols. Originally by: Mantalari Altis Sorry. I don't have a lot of sympathy for a guy that wants to fly a dread solo to go fight a pile of non-cap ships in the first place. I just might have come off a little too harsh here. you obviously havnt flown a moros before. Originally by: Mantalari Altis Here's a plan. How about you drop the webbie from your mega for some webbie drones and regain a mid slot? ive tried it but have still be repeatedly jammed by ECM drones. so imho its just a waste of a med slot. Originally by: Mantalari Altis Or are you in the Moros? Go buy a carrier to kill noobs in. Then you can have all sorts of drones and fighters too. moros > carrier BRUTEFORCE VID


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