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0.0 PVP and learning implants questions

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Hesod Adee Xen Of Onslaught	Posted - 2008.05.19 01:18:00 - [1] By learning implants, I mean the implants that only boost your learning speeds. So the pirate implants aren't counted here because they give bonuses alongside the learning boosts. When I look at the skill training formula I notice that it is x/(primary att + 0.5secondary att). Meaning diminishing returns on attribute increases, where you need to double the attributes to halve the time required. So after considering that when I have learning skills 5/4, implants don't produce much of a gain. Add in PvP where I expect to be podded, and I start to wonder if even +1 implants are worth the price. When I've talking to other players in game, I find that they fall into 3 catorgies: - Non-pvp players who use high level implants because they aren't risking them. - Players who use a jump clone to protect their implants while they PvP. - Players who avoid 0.0 and think that they can avoid being podded because they can warp away before being scrambled. They use implants. So for those people out in 0.0: How often do you use learning implants ? If you use them, what strength are they ? How well stocked are implants at the station markets ? If stocked, what kind of prices do they sell for ? Same questions as above, but now with pirate implants. How often do you get podded ? I only ask because I don't see the learning implants as being worth the cost. But if this is indeed true, it would mean that the carebear players would train skills faster than PvPers, even though Eve was originally designed as a PvP game. *However I do see pirate implants as worth it in some situations.
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.19 03:15:00 - [2] Originally by: Hesod Adee How often do you use learning implants ? As often as I can afford to lose them. Originally by: Hesod Adee If you use them, what strength are they ? Usually +2 or +3, sometimes +4 Originally by: Hesod Adee How well stocked are implants at the station markets ? That depends totally on the logistics guys seeding your alliance stations' markets. Ranges from none-at-all to very-well. Originally by: Hesod Adee If stocked, what kind of prices do they sell for ? Again, depends on your alliance's market policy or its lack thereof. Originally by: Hesod Adee Same questions as above, but now with pirate implants. No idea, never bothered. Originally by: Hesod Adee How often do you get podded ? Fairly regularly. Originally by: Hesod Adee I only ask because I don't see the learning implants as being worth the cost*. If you can afford to lose them, learning implants are always worth it, seeing as there is no alternative to speed up your skill training. The main difference probably is that highsec inhabitants usually use whole sets of learning implants, whereas 0.0 dvellers use them as needed. Most times only the primary (or prim / secondary) implant of the long skill you are currently training, then trying to schedule another skill you need with these prim/sec attributes if the pod survives the skilltraining or trying to avoid clonejumps after being podded (you still train with the attributes you gained from the implants). If you know from day 1 that you will live in 0.0 most of your time, it is also possible to bias your attributes in a way that you have good SP/h for one common prim/sec combination even without learning implants and then use selected implants to counter your low learning rates for other combinations.
Hyren ACCORD Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 04:39:00 - [3] I always use +4s in 0.0, but only two for the specific skill I'm training at the time. I know that many people use +3s, and +2s, though, somewhat fewer use +4s, since they're a fair bit more expensive. Generally, if you are going into a fight that you will very likely be podded, its not a bad idea to clone jump into a clone with something a bit less expensive to lose though. But since you continue training after being podded at the same rate, if you have a long skill set, it may not be worth it to jump out. "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.19 04:47:00 - [4] at 20-30mil/hour ratting 4 hours will buy a +4 set no problem. I'm in 0.0 with a +4 set in, along with a few hardwires. although i am ratting most of my time and not taking chances to get podded. i have an alt who is in lowsec with a +5 set, -cha implant. oh and put a longer plan into eve mon and then use the implant calc to see what your +1/2/3/4/5 implants really do over that time
Checksum54	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:13:00 - [5] Diminishing returns on attribute increases? Guess it might depend on how you look at it, but 1 extra attribute will always grant you the same absolute increase in sp/hour. Unless I was in a war and getting podded on a daily basis i would most definitely not go without +3, probably using +4 for when I'm feeling relatively safe.
RiotRick Black-Sun Pitch Black Legion	Posted - 2008.05.19 11:36:00 - [6] Edited by: RiotRick on 19/05/2008 11:36:45 Usually use +3's in 0.0 clones. Not always full sets though. Depends a bit on the skills I'm training. If possible I switch to training a long skill before starting pvp. When you get podded the current skill will still keep training as if you still had the implants plugged in (until you pause/switch skills). My empire clones / alt usually have full +4 sets.
Jawbreaker x	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:24:00 - [7] +1 attribute gives 43.200 sp per month for primary and 21.600sp for secondary attribute ,if you have +1 for primary and secondary attributes 64.800 sp for per month . It does not change ,your gain can be big or small at % wise but sp amounth is static . 2 +4 implants(for primary and secondary attributes )give 259.200 sp for per month.Does it worth it ?Your choose
Suboran Gallente Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:15:00 - [8] i use +3s but never install a full set just ones that i need and i train skills in those areas. if there is a large fight coming up then i switch to a long skill so if i get podded i will still continue training at the same pace.
Florio Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:27:00 - [9] Most of the time I use +5s in empire with no war dec, +4s in empire/low sec when war dec'd, and either +3s or more often than not no implants in 0.0. The reduction in sp/hr without implants is mitigated by having very high int and mem attributes and only training skills using int and mem in my pvp clones (you could of course alternatively have high perc and wp and only train perc/wp skills in your pvp clone). This means I am always training at a high sp/hr whether I have implants in or not. But this means not having a cookie-cutter character with "optimum" level attributes, which goes against received wisdom.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:51:00 - [10] I have +3's loaded (except charisma at +1). Planning on getting a +5 clone in a trade hub at some point for margin trading during long skill trainings or recover the money for +3's after getting podded. As with ships don't undock with what you can't afford to lose. PRETA is now recruiting.

Gwendion Gallente No Quarter.	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:20:00 - [11] I normally fly with +4s with hardwires. Thats my primary combat clone. I also fight in +5s and the expensive ones. To me, its worth the cost, why? I fight in 0.0 exclusively, and I rarely get podded. (Good ole spam warp-to when I'm about to die, hasn't failed in a year) In the last year, I've been podded 4 times. 3 of those times, It was traveling from deep 0.0 in a shuttle, no implants etc, and I let them kill me, because I didn't want to go around the camp. Yes, its worth it to get the implants. Always. It goes in the same line. Fly what you can afford to lose. (and a year of +4/+5 implants justifys the cost of a loss once a year, even when I payed last years prices for them) You may be different. Only fly what you can afford to lose. =) -----------------------------------
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.05.19 20:50:00 - [12] Remember, if you get podded with implants in, training speed does not update until the skill finishes. So. . . buy a pair of +2s or +3s, train those attributes only, then once you get podded, finish your skill and get a new set. +2s are dirt cheap. Remember, you have to pay clone costs each podding anyway, why not shell out a few mil for a pretty decent training speed increase? Heck, I'm at a point where (unless I expect to die imminently, i.e. assaulting a bubble camp in a Blackbird or other high-priority target) it would be stupid for me to NOT have at least +2primary/+1secondary plugged in. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
z0de Gallente The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:15:00 - [13] Use them whenever you can, why have isk in the wallet doing nothing when it could be in your head boosting what you get out of your time.
Hesod Adee Xen Of Onslaught	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:44:00 - [14] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Remember, if you get podded with implants in, training speed does not update until the skill finishes. Ok, this does change things a bit. Though it feels like a bit of a bug exploit, even though the devs must be aware of it. I'm also waiting for a better answer to my question of cost than "it depends". So please give me the price range you usually see. Another question: Does it feel right to you that carebears get no-hassle faster training simply because they avoid PvP, even though Eve is often described as a PvP focused game ?
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Hesod Adee Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Remember, if you get podded with implants in, training speed does not update until the skill finishes. Ok, this does change things a bit. Though it feels like a bit of a bug exploit, even though the devs must be aware of it. I'm also waiting for a better answer to my question of cost than "it depends". So please give me the price range you usually see. Another question: Does it feel right to you that carebears get no-hassle faster training simply because they avoid PvP, even though Eve is often described as a PvP focused game ? been like that for at least a year
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:55:00 - [16] I have no problem useing a implant heavy clone in PvP most of the time. For things like fleet fights I opt for a no implant clone or use dirt cheap +1s along with a few cheap hardwireings.
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.20 00:57:00 - [17] Originally by: Hesod Adee Another question: Does it feel right to you that carebears get no-hassle faster training simply because they avoid PvP, even though Eve is often described as a PvP focused game ? Yes. You can't expect loss to have a meaning beyond travelling-annoyance from a respawn point and at the same time not get an advantage from not losing stuff.
Siadyu Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.21 17:54:00 - [18] Edited by: Siadyu on 21/05/2008 17:54:00 Quote: Another question: Does it feel right to you that carebears get no-hassle faster training simply because they avoid PvP, even though Eve is often described as a PvP focused game ? Well, you can pvp without ever leaving a station. The risks are just different.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.21 19:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Hesod Adee Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Remember, if you get podded with implants in, training speed does not update until the skill finishes. Ok, this does change things a bit. Though it feels like a bit of a bug exploit, even though the devs must be aware of it. I'm also waiting for a better answer to my question of cost than "it depends". So please give me the price range you usually see. Another question: Does it feel right to you that carebears get no-hassle faster training simply because they avoid PvP, even though Eve is often described as a PvP focused game ? They get more SP but so what? At the end of the day, I pay to play not to accumulate SP. And I've been PvPing in +4s ever since the LP store was introduced... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Clueless Alt	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:32:00 - [20] I use 2 +4 revelant implants, and clone jump when I need to train another branch. Cheap and high sp/hour. :P

Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:34:00 - [21] depends really. for 0.0 I use my +3 clone, and have only been podded there once as far as I remember. For prolonged periods in hi/low-sec I switch to my +5 clone, unless it's L4 mission whoring in my Nighthawk where I switch to my Crystal set. ...
Thelonius Rat MDK Syndicate The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Rawr Cristina depends really. for 0.0 I use my +3 clone, and have only been podded there once as far as I remember. For prolonged periods in hi/low-sec I switch to my +5 clone, unless it's L4 mission whoring in my Nighthawk where I switch to my Crystal set. God damned rich bloody bastrads. Me? I never use implants and haven't done for a while, because not only do I get podded in 0.0 more than I'd like, but I like to use pod self-destruction as a means of transport. -
Squatdog Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.24 00:18:00 - [23] If you're farming/doing small-scale PVP in alliance 0.0 space, its rare you'll actually get podded unless you bumble into a bubble camp, or there's an enemy interceptor with superfast lock. Over the last few months I've lost around 15 ships in PVP, but only 2 pods (I lost a further one but that was because the game lagged out). Yes, losing 130m in implants sucks.
sh4rp ov3rvolt Hikage Corporation Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.05.25 08:07:00 - [24] Edited by: sh4rp ov3rvolt on 25/05/2008 08:11:18 Edited by: sh4rp ov3rvolt on 25/05/2008 08:08:14 You don't get podded so often if you are careful in 0.0 small scale PvP... I think most popular option used by the average player is to have two +4 for the attrib of the skills you are training, and set a long skill when you go into PvP... this way, if you get podded, you have the time to finish skilling a long skill before needing more implants... in the meanwhile, you are skilling as if you were wearing the +4s and enjoy some "who-gives-a-damn-about-the-pod" PvP... use other dual+4 jumpclones if you have to train something which uses other attributes... also a set of 4x +3 is just fine for 0.0 operations... and you should always at least have a set of +2, even if you are broke :) just be smart and use an implantless clone for fleet/suicidal ops
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.25 08:18:00 - [25] This is something I used to worry about as well. Right now though with the cost of implants being so low and me still having a load of LP to burn after running missions in the past quite frequently I don't really consider it. I use Learning implants all the time of at least +3 quality for the current skill I am trainning. e.g. a +3 Perception and a +3 Willpower if I am trainning Spaceship command skills. Sometimes I just forget through and fly with a full set in. Slightly off topic but I also tend to use ship specific Hardwires as well in 0.0 PVP to give that edge. As for how often I get podded. It's about once every 3 months on average so it's not THAT painful. Although I am sure I will now be podded the instant I head out again ;) ---
Kell Braugh	Posted - 2008.05.27 11:34:00 - [26] i'm in a +4 pair (int-mem or will-perc) 90% of the time, only exception is if i know its gonna be a big fleet engaugement in which i plan on lag out and/or desync and hope i have enough notice to jump to a clean clone. - EFT screen shots are NOT an accurate example of a ship's abilities.
Kusha'an RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:26:00 - [27] Wear +4s and fly in a fast ship in a large gang. That's what I do. You might lose your ship, but you usually won't get podded. ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Thelonius Rat Originally by: Rawr Cristina depends really. for 0.0 I use my +3 clone, and have only been podded there once as far as I remember. For prolonged periods in hi/low-sec I switch to my +5 clone, unless it's L4 mission whoring in my Nighthawk where I switch to my Crystal set. God damned rich bloody bastrads. Me? I never use implants and haven't done for a while, because not only do I get podded in 0.0 more than I'd like, but I like to use pod self-destruction as a means of transport. Then you lose that +400 SP/hr goodness. Personally I find that keeping that steady 50kSP/day rolling in is worth losing a couple of +4s now and then. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.


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