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Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:46:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 23/05/2008 18:02:59 Just to be reiterate things for the uninitiated, the issue at hand is this:
A mission runner in a semi-decently fitted ship is scanned at his mission station using a passive targeter. The gankers find the fitting offers enough profit potential, and thus he makes the list of gankworthy targets or something. Now the systems the agents send people to are well known, so the ganksquad waits on the other side of one of the gates till one worthwhile targets comes by. They open up on him and there is nothing he can do to save himself. Concord takes a merry 25 secs or so before they show up in .5 sec, by that time he is dead just from the fire of about 5 ravens with overheated siege launchers and his loot goes to the gankers, who lose next to nothing thanks to insurance. Same thing happens to haulers on the highways I guess, even though there it is usually untanked industrials carrying valueable cargo on autopilot and thus just inviting disaster.
Now I find this to be very wrong, and while there are many solutions, the one I favor is this:
When you are killed by concord, you do not receive any insurance payout if you actually killed someone with your criminal act. If you did not kill anyone, you get your insurance. This would serve the following: - Higher margin of value for mission runner/T2 haulers to put on their ships to be safe from gankers out for profit. - Unsuccessful ganks would still have the same minor consequences they have now. - People can still gank for grudges or ****s/giggles, but it would cost them something now. - Paper indies with billions in cargo would remain the gank targets for caracals they are supposed to be
Ok, but I digressed. Whether this or some other solution is implemented, the question is does suicide ganking need a nerf or not?
EDIT: And at the same time as a logical consequence, self destruction should also result in insurance voiding.
Good ideea, if it is applied without the usuall mega-swing of CCP ... and we know how CCP swings and misses.
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Tony Allizzar
POINT CLICK KILL
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Posted - 2008.06.26 14:12:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Zareph Your solutions aren't support worthy.
However.
If one of your solutions was 'the more bad guys attacking a single non ganged target the faster concord can respond' that might be something.
For example.
one person is running missions. one person is coming through the gate. 5 people open fire.
25s? well since there is 5, lets divide that 25 by 5 and that means concord responds in 5s.
anything more than say 10 or 15 and it's instan spawn concord regardless of system sec. Tech2 ships/weaponry mean insta concord, stuff like that.
Removing insurance payment is not the option. Maybe at best make it like your car insurance in that if you have repeated claims within a certain period (say, 14 days) the cost of insurance or value of payout goes up/down, but removal isn't good.
the goon on page one had a good idea. need to go wash my mouth out with soap
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Astria Tiphareth
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Posted - 2008.06.26 14:45:00 -
[333]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 26/06/2008 14:44:42 Ganking should and is a perfectly valid option. However, ironically those against this proposal keep quoting that EVE should have consequences, when they're busy using a system without consequences, namely suiciding.
At present if I want to suicide gank a target, I & my friends roll 12 alts, fit suitable ships (kestrels are quite popular), gank the target, collect the insurance and loot, forward both to the main char, and delete the alt.
This happens rather a lot. The sec status hit that comes with ganking becomes irrelevant in this case. On the other hand if a kill in high-sec resulting in CONCORD voided insurance payouts, it would at least require sufficient profit to be undertaken.
Risk vs reward. The gankers should be risking something. The mission runners already are. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
AltBier
Freelance Unincorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:13:00 -
[334]
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Anaalys Fluuterby
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:52:00 -
[335]
/Signed for additional counters
I find is ridiculous that someone can freely scan a ship and KNOW whether they will make a profit or not.
1)Insurance for Concord kills need to go. 2)Skills need to be added and the ship/cargo scanners shifted to chance based according to those skills 3)Counter-modules for the scanners need to be put in. 4)Mechanisms need to be put in to allow a support fleet to protect slow, vulnerable ships.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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abbagabba
Gallente Monster Raving Loonies
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Posted - 2008.06.27 15:33:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby /Signed for additional counters
I find is ridiculous that someone can freely scan a ship and KNOW whether they will make a profit or not.
1)Insurance for Concord kills need to go. 2)Skills need to be added and the ship/cargo scanners shifted to chance based according to those skills 3)Counter-modules for the scanners need to be put in. 4)Mechanisms need to be put in to allow a support fleet to protect slow, vulnerable ships.
1) It is a popular suggestion 2) Ship scanner is chance based already 3) There are already counters that make cargo scanning impossible 4) webbed instawarp freighters, remote repping support, falcon jammers, scouts?
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.06.27 16:29:00 -
[337]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 27/06/2008 16:30:53
Originally by: abbagabba
2) Ship scanner is chance based already
Every time I've tried it I've been 100% successful. If it is actually chance based, what skills effect both scanning and counters?
Quote:
3) There are already counters that make cargo scanning impossible
GSCs and Freight cans haven't blocked scans for a long time. What are the counters?
Quote:
4)remote repping support, falcon jammers, scouts?
1)Remote rep doesn't work; Cycle rate on the remote reppers is slow enough that at most one cycle gets off before concord would respond as it is once you factor in lock times. Plus with the very short range of remote reps on anything but logistics ships combined with the random jump in points you can't bring your reppers to play on the ship you need to protect.
2)Falcon jammers cannot counter until the attack is underway or they get concorded, meaning the ship is already mostly dead before they can engage. They are also helpless against gank squads of BSs as they can't lock and engage enough targets fast enough to drop the DPS to save the gankee.
3)Scouts works, but there are many places in eve where you have the option of going through X gate or going through lowsec to get to your location. No alternative routes are available meaning if you do find something you can't go around.
But this has been covered many times in the 100s of threads on the subject.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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Exlegion
New Light Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:16:00 -
[338]
Although I hardly operate in high sec these days and I don't believe high sec should be 100% safe I do believe it should be reasonably safe. It seems way too easy and riskless to gank just about anything in high sec.
TL/DR Version: Agree 100% with Leandro Salazar.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Dray
Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:36:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A discussion between the CSM and CCP / Devs on the issues about Suicide Ganking, the consequences of it, and the relationship with insurance took place this morning. A number of possibilities were reviewed and announcements will be made. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IZ
I would hope that the parties involved in this discussion are all aware of how easy it is to avoid suicide ganking, because it is easy to avoid unless your IQ is less than your shoe size.
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Kinkie Yuuki
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Posted - 2008.06.28 02:18:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 28/06/2008 02:18:32
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Inanna Zuni +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A discussion between the CSM and CCP / Devs on the issues about Suicide Ganking, the consequences of it, and the relationship with insurance took place this morning. A number of possibilities were reviewed and announcements will be made. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IZ
I would hope that the parties involved in this discussion are all aware of how easy it is to avoid suicide ganking, because it is easy to avoid unless your IQ is less than your shoe size.
1. Don't put more then 2-3 hundred mill on your ship. 2. Use alt scout. Which would be tiresome after awhile. 3. Use cloak which kills scan resolution. 5. Forget any lowslots and fill them with istabs+nanos. 6. ???
What other counters are there exactly? The only real feasible option is number 1.
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Bl00dyAngel
Brothers Of Republic Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.06.28 08:51:00 -
[341]
no insurence for highsec ganker sounds right
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Dray
Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.28 12:06:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 28/06/2008 02:18:32
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: Inanna Zuni +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A discussion between the CSM and CCP / Devs on the issues about Suicide Ganking, the consequences of it, and the relationship with insurance took place this morning. A number of possibilities were reviewed and announcements will be made. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IZ
I would hope that the parties involved in this discussion are all aware of how easy it is to avoid suicide ganking, because it is easy to avoid unless your IQ is less than your shoe size.
1. Don't put more then 2-3 hundred mill on your ship. 2. Use alt scout. Which would be tiresome after awhile. 3. Use cloak which kills scan resolution. 5. Forget any lowslots and fill them with istabs+nanos. 6. ???
What other counters are there exactly? The only real feasible option is number 1.
Option 2 being the most obvious, its not that it gets tiresome, its that you don't want to interrupt your isk flow by spending time ensuring your safety, failing that go ask the low sec mission runners who've been living with ganks long before ppl came crying to the forums.
Also L4 missions dont require a pimp fit to complete, so your low cost option is also fine.
Scan res isnt that big a deal in pve tbh, at least it shouldn't be, in some cases a cloak wont save you anyway.
Its easily done and I'm not going to tell you how, as I've said before it is a "multi" player game, you don't have to be in the same corp to work together. |
Dray
Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.28 23:40:00 -
[343]
OK, CAPS FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS, suicide ganking is only a problem for ppl to greedy to scout, there you go soloution number 1.
Suicide ganking isnt broken, but for the sake of this thread remove hi-sec gank insurance, you low IQ, too lazy to work out how to stop it, cry on the forums and hope its fixed in our favour ****suckers, will stop crying.
NEWS FLASH, voiding insurance wont stop hi sec ganks......
Thank you and good night. |
Internet Knight
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Posted - 2008.06.29 01:17:00 -
[344]
Edited by: Internet Knight on 29/06/2008 01:17:34 I wholeheartedly agree with OP.
Perhaps insurance should be sent to the character that got ganked rather than being completely voided.
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Kailiani
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Posted - 2008.06.29 02:31:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Dray OK, CAPS FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS, suicide ganking is only a problem for ppl to greedy to scout, there you go soloution number 1.
Suicide ganking isnt broken, but for the sake of this thread remove hi-sec gank insurance, you low IQ, too lazy to work out how to stop it, cry on the forums and hope its fixed in our favour ****suckers, will stop crying.
NEWS FLASH, voiding insurance wont stop hi sec ganks......
Thank you and good night.
Not everyone is able to afford or willing to pay for a second account to scout for them.
Instead of providing a second solution you insult us, and then tell us what we already know, thanks!
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Dray
Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.29 17:02:00 -
[346]
Edited by: Dray on 29/06/2008 17:05:34
Originally by: Kailiani
Originally by: Dray OK, CAPS FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS, suicide ganking is only a problem for ppl to greedy to scout, there you go soloution number 1.
Suicide ganking isnt broken, but for the sake of this thread remove hi-sec gank insurance, you low IQ, too lazy to work out how to stop it, cry on the forums and hope its fixed in our favour ****suckers, will stop crying.
NEWS FLASH, voiding insurance wont stop hi sec ganks......
Thank you and good night.
Not everyone is able to afford or willing to pay for a second account to scout for them.
Instead of providing a second solution you insult us, and then tell us what we already know, thanks!
Scouting is just one solution, there are others and I'm not here to tell you how.
As for not having second acc for scouting, how about your work together with other mission runners and catch on to the "multi player" side of the game.
You all seem to be happy with voiding insurance for suicide ganks, I'm telling you now the people who do it properly wont be put off at all by no insurance, myself included.
If they void insurance and people are still getting suicide ganked I'll bet my left testicle you'll be back here asking for nerfs/changes whatever instead of solving a simple problem with a bit of common sense, which is what you should be doing now tbh.
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Fenris Ulfur
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Posted - 2008.06.29 18:05:00 -
[347]
supported all the way
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Level5
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Posted - 2008.06.29 20:43:00 -
[348]
I agree its to easy to gank in highsec.
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Kuzya
Not Like Most Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2008.06.29 23:15:00 -
[349]
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Marlona Sky
D00M. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.06.29 23:42:00 -
[350]
Take away the insurance payout if you get Concorded and that will help balance this play style a lot. |
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Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.06.29 23:58:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Shenko Minara
Originally by: Leandro Salazar There, fixed it for you.
Thanks for that, if you like I can go back and fix your op for you too: "hello, I play Eve but it would be better if it was like WoW and didn't have consequences." There's more I could imply about your lack of willing to explore Eve as a whole, but since we're only making a single alteration to each other's posts...
Originally by: Tusko Hopkins Edited by: Tusko Hopkins on 22/05/2008 15:28:27 I support the idea, no insurance payout for high sec gankers, no matter if the gank is successful or not. When a ship is killed by CONCORD, the owner should not receive any kind of insurance payout. It might be interesting to consider returning the insurance fee if there was any, so that it doesnt look like a big SCC ripoff.
And suddenly your multi-billion Navy Raven that you care so much about gets blown up by accident because you left a weapon on prefire and Concord don't care... I guess people need to think before they react in these forums, huh?
Stop trying to spin this. You are trying to make it sound like people are worried about accidentally shooting something and getting concorded, that is not anywhere close to what they are talking about.
This is about the current system. Basically it is all REWARD. It needs to be RISK vs. REWARD
Currently there is zero risk at all. |
Maus Bailey
International House of PWNCakes Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.06.30 00:02:00 -
[352]
Most just log before Concord even show up now. No loss at all.
It's pretty stellar. |
Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.06.30 00:02:00 -
[353]
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 30/06/2008 00:02:53
Originally by: Dray OK, CAPS FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS, suicide ganking is only a problem for ppl to greedy to scout, there you go soloution number 1.
Suicide ganking isnt broken, but for the sake of this thread remove hi-sec gank insurance, you low IQ, too lazy to work out how to stop it, cry on the forums and hope its fixed in our favour ****suckers, will stop crying.
NEWS FLASH, voiding insurance wont stop hi sec ganks......
Thank you and good night.
NEWS FLASH, OP is not wanting high sec ganks to stop, just for there to be "Risk" in the "Risk vs. Reward" part of the game.
Thank you and go learn to read. |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.30 00:53:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
NEWS FLASH, OP is not wanting high sec ganks to stop, just for there to be "Risk" in the "Risk vs. Reward" part of the game.
Thank you and go learn to read.
Sorry but high sec missions completely destroy the concept of risk/reward in this game.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.06.30 01:10:00 -
[355]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Marlona Sky
NEWS FLASH, OP is not wanting high sec ganks to stop, just for there to be "Risk" in the "Risk vs. Reward" part of the game.
Thank you and go learn to read.
Sorry but high sec missions completely destroy the concept of risk/reward in this game.
Pretty much |
Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.30 04:30:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Maus Bailey Most just log before Concord even show up now. No loss at all.
It's pretty stellar.
It's a good thing Concord can't find safespots or anything. Owait....
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Maus Bailey
International House of PWNCakes Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.06.30 07:11:00 -
[357]
Quote: It's a good thing Concord can't find safespots or anything. Owait....
Exactly, just wait.
24hrs to be precise. |
Dray
Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.30 11:03:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Dray on 30/06/2008 11:05:53
Originally by: Marlona Sky Edited by: Marlona Sky on 30/06/2008 00:02:53
Originally by: Dray OK, CAPS FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS, suicide ganking is only a problem for ppl to greedy to scout, there you go soloution number 1.
Suicide ganking isnt broken, but for the sake of this thread remove hi-sec gank insurance, you low IQ, too lazy to work out how to stop it, cry on the forums and hope its fixed in our favour ****suckers, will stop crying.
NEWS FLASH, voiding insurance wont stop hi sec ganks......
Thank you and good night.
NEWS FLASH, OP is not wanting high sec ganks to stop, just for there to be "Risk" in the "Risk vs. Reward" part of the game.
Thank you and go learn to read.
I can read fine and I'm not debating what the OP wants I'm simply pointing out how easy it is to counter suicide ganking.
Also I stand by my comments of some people being to greedy to want to try and work together to stop it because it interrupts their isk flow, that or their being to lazy or stupid to work out how.
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Weeman
Caldari FIRMA
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Posted - 2008.06.30 12:57:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Marlona Sky
NEWS FLASH, OP is not wanting high sec ganks to stop, just for there to be "Risk" in the "Risk vs. Reward" part of the game.
Thank you and go learn to read.
Sorry but high sec missions completely destroy the concept of risk/reward in this game.
Pretty much
No risk to the reward? Kill rights? I risk hauling afk with kill rights on me because I know people i've killed are too gutless or stupid to come get me. That and it'd throw their isk/hour ratio right off which is just sacrilege to these mission runners :o.
Nerf is not an option there are already MANY EFFECTIVE COUNTERS. |
SickSeven
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Posted - 2008.06.30 21:03:00 -
[360]
Dont stop it, just make it less profitable. -ANY ship destroyed by Concord should only be paid pack what was paid to SCC. In essence a refund. Not full Payout. -ANY ship that is self-destructed should have the same result as above. |
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