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Harpo
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:21:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim Out of everything wrong with Eve, you sure picked a dumb thing to quit over.
I feel like the current logistics of 0.0 warfare to be a much bigger problem than just dumb suicide gankers...
That said, you are right. The solution that I think is the easiest is just invalidate insurance on ganking ships. While suicide ganks should be allowed to occur, that doesnt mean that they should get the money they spent on the ganking ship back as well as whatever the profit is.
All they have to do is make suicide ganking a risk again instead of a 'break even' at worst and your problem is fixed!
I know its been said before, but it's the best solution and one that could be easily implemented. I'm sorry you felt like this was worth quitting over but to each his own I suppose...
I know it's a dumb thing... you'd think losing an alliance, or a station your corp worked for and held for years would have done it.
This was an "it's time" straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not quitting over this one incident, but rather a culmination of things that have lead Eve in a direction that I cannot follow. There are plenty more imbalances, this just happened to be the one that finally did me in.
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Armoured C
Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:21:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Armoured C on 23/05/2008 00:22:36 reserved
didnt see the other comment that have just been posted
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Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:36:00 -
[33]
Since the OP wants to use Real Life anologys then here is the best one to apply to Eve: "Life ain't fair dumplin'". Future Member Of The 24th Imperial |
Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:40:00 -
[34]
The game mechanics you list as unballanced and want to leave the game for are the reasons that I enjoy this game so much.
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Armoured C
Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:47:00 -
[35]
that why you cant change stuff as what you hate other people enjoy hence sandbox =)
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Shakuul
Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:56:00 -
[36]
Players find way to benefit themselves in any game, even in totally PVE games. And even in PVE games, people whine about it. Even if you don't directly damage the other person, the fact that you are better at accomplishing goal XYZ in the game makes them annoyed. I don't see anything wrong with this. Balance is important but there will always be good strategies and poor strategies.
I think the reason that CCP has been slow to respond is there have been so many more people testing and looking out for these imbalances. Game knowledge has gotten much better, guides abound, so its that much easier for people to get the basics down and go onto worrying about how to make billions of isk instead of 5 years ago, where people worried when they would be able to afford a cruiser.
Suicide griefing is IMO stupid. Its extremely misleading to project the image of hisec being safe (many noobs get this idea, I dunno if its in the tutorial) and then they discover it isn't. I don't really see how the game is any better off with suicide ganking. Its really about lazy people who don't want to do real pvp, so instead they prey on the weak in empire. (so much for risk vs. reward...)
I think real life are almost always unproductive and misleading. Eve is a game, it has nothing to do with real life. I don't care what real world economic policy is, or what would happen to suicide bombers in real life, or what would happen if you filled a car with cash and drove through London, insofar as I'm just discussing EVE and how to make it better.
Prefacing your statements with "its just an opinion" does not make criticism of them any less justified. I could make a post saying "EVE is a terrible game WoW is much better, but thats just my opinion so don't criticize it." What do you think would happen?
Although I do happen to agree that sandbox games, like all games, have a shelf life. I would guess that EVE will peak subscribes in the next 2-3 years and then start declining from there. I doubt it will make it past 10 years. There are simply too many other MMOs out there, and some competing pvp oriented MMOs in the works to assure that EVE will stay around (being the size it is) for over 5 years.
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Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:58:00 -
[37]
Looks like you've played this game for the wrong reasons for much too long. You should have left years ago.
One less warm hearted carebear in our griefer paradise. 200,000 to go
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Martyr Theos
The NecroMonger Faith
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Posted - 2008.05.23 01:10:00 -
[38]
I am forced to point out that suicide ganking veteran haulers in empire is the only mechanism by which righteous retribution may be poured out upon your head by the forces of NOOB in their Kestrel poverty. "Got License?" - TNMF |
Harpo
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Posted - 2008.05.23 01:41:00 -
[39]
I will also point out that in no way was I a carebear. lol. The thought.
Regardless... not saying sandbox was wrong, just tired of how limiting it becomes patch after patch. It's a community chasing the next imbalance, that's how it has worked, that's how it will always work.
I flew nano ships, torp kessies, cloak, dampener BSs, etc.
And if any of you have an inkling of reading comprehension, then you will note I stated that I love AND hate this game because of its sandbox nature.
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.05.23 04:07:00 -
[40]
I find it slightly odd that I'm saying this to a 4 or 5 year plus character but...
Welcome to eve.
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Galan Amarias
Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three
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Posted - 2008.05.23 05:26:00 -
[41]
To the OP,
Mind telling us how you got ganked? If you were activly at the keyboard and flying paranoid I'd love to hear it because it'll mean I'm wrong when I flame the guy I quoted below. If you were afk hauling riches then I suggest that the suicide mechanic worked perfectly.
Originally by: Shakuul ...Suicide griefing is IMO stupid. Its extremely misleading to project the image of hisec being safe (many noobs get this idea, I dunno if its in the tutorial) and then they discover it isn't. I don't really see how the game is any better off with suicide ganking. Its really about lazy people who don't want to do real pvp, so instead they prey on the weak in empire. (so much for risk vs. reward...)
Well since it looks like it's been a while since you read the tutorial let me assure you that High sec is never called "Safe." merely "safer" and in all mentions of Concord there is an asside teling you they may not arrive in time to save you, merely in time to kill the agressor.
Sadly I was with you for most of what you wrote, then there was this paragraph. Apologies to the OP if this seems like a derail but this is a suicide gank post and I just can't seem to resist them.
Originally by: Shakuul Its really about lazy people who don't want to do real pvp, so instead they prey on the weak in empire. (so much for risk vs. reward...)
This statement represents utter fail. What is "Real" PVP? Is it the market? Some imaginary formal duel between oposing battleship gangs? Repetedly getting assult BS fleets nuked at the gate by 5 titans? A gate camp? Two players of magically the same age sp and training arcs in similar fits of similar sized ships agreeing to meet at some forgotton moon while a friend fraps it? Shooting station services in 0.0?
Seccond, who is the lazy player, the one who orginized a hit, found a target and a group and orchestrated a succesful hit? Or the dumb tard with billions in his cargo hold flying to Jita on autopilot because he can't be botherd to actually play the "booring" parts of the game he's shelling out a montly subscription for?
Finally, Oh the poor noobs... Noobs do not have billions of ISK. They do not have hundreds of millions of ISK. Hence they are not the targets of suicide ganking. Can flipping, sure, war dec abuse by large experienced pvp corps against small noob mining corps, sure, but high sec ganking?! I'm not sayning it dosen't ever happen but it's the afk fat cats that keep getting skinned so leave out the concern for the poor defensless no nothing noobs.
The risk and reward of suicide ganking has NOTHING to do with the insurance payout. That is a set value placed on the ship's minerals. The risk reward comes from a flood of market suicide ships sold at low cost by the insustrialists they are killing and the same industrialists hauling absurd amounts of wealth w/o any precautions what so ever.
Again, Harpo, if you were flying at your keyboard with a scout and someone to help your freighter align and warp quickly, my apologies. I'd love to hear how a gang of gankers killed a wary alert target who was doing everything right because then I could rest knowing something truly was unbalanced in empire.
-Galan
The answer to empire ganking |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.23 05:28:00 -
[42]
Is hitting enter after every sentence now a new meme?
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
mentalmonkey
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Posted - 2008.05.23 06:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Is hitting enter after every sentence now a new meme?
Shhhh. Its better this way, discorages wall-of-test posts even if it does mean a lil' extra scrolling
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.23 06:36:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Harpo
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds ITT: OP got suicide ganked one too many times and uses real-life conditions as a premise for whinage.
Real life conditions were used by GM as a way of explaining why they are still allowed.
You mean, like the way in reality there's no magic way to stop guns working so it's that way in EvE too?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
ThaDollaGenerale
Endless Destruction Total Eclipse Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.23 07:00:00 -
[45]
Crystal Shores Of Waves Your Stuff is Swaying Nicely Can I Have Your Stuff?
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Ralara
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.05.23 07:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Harpo Edited by: Harpo on 23/05/2008 00:04:24 Edited by: Harpo on 23/05/2008 00:03:03 Why am I, after playing since beta, leaving what I believe to be (still) the best video game created?
Claim: Sandbox style games will always be imbalanced.
Claim of Fact: Players will continually find new ways to use an imbalance to their benefit. (Often labeled: exploit, or game mechanics)
Claim of Policy: Eve should properly respond to imbalances, whether exploits or not, in such a manner to service the good of this community as a whole, and not those who exploit or benefit greatly from griefing (especially given the tight-knitted nature and relatively small size of this community).
Opinion: I believe that the EVE community has become progressively worse in the five years that I have been playing as a result of delayed response to such exploits and imbalances. (Sentry gun tanking, corporate theft, nanos, race balancing, warp core stabs, the list goes on...)
Claim of Value: Eve isn't fun anymore, as more fixes that get implemented causes more fixes needed.
One such imbalance is that of suicide griefing in empire space.
Suicide griefing should be better attended to in some degree in .8 space. The mechanics in place to prevent it from happening are minuscule in comparison to the benefit of committing an act of aggression.
The griefer easily returns to 0.0 and rats for a week to renew sec. status and what has he/she lost? A Raven - that's all! Where is the risk?
If suicide bombers today in "real life" were to remain alive and given $500 mil if they destroyed a building, they would be as rampant as they are in Eve. I was told by GM Lelouch this analogy of "real world similarities", yet in real life, the griefer dies. In game life, the grieved leave the game.
I cannot support this game based on principle and based on the imbalance of risk vs. reward.
Opinion: Sandbox style games have a shelf life: as fixes are implemented, they steer the course of the game into itself until there is no other choice but to strip it, open it or start over, i.e. SWG, Planetside, UO, DAoC, EnB, etc.. Most games have never reached this point, as new games come out and take their place, leaving a subscriber base of nostalgics and fanatics. >>>Please, no straw hat arguments discrediting my claims because of this opinion... this part is purely subjective
I am sad that Eve falls prey to such truth, and yes, reframing my mind to the values that allow me to enjoy this game during each patch-debacle has helped foster my continued support throughout the years. Yet, the course has run for me.
This game was refreshing, the community insightful, the memories beautiful.
Eve is persistent to be perfect, but impossibly imperfect.
Fly safe, -Harpo
"Suicide griefing"
Ah ha, all of that was because you got ganked in high sec, yes?
You've been playing for over 5 years - you know how it works.
Cya. --
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Shakuul
Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.05.23 07:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Galan Amarias
Well since it looks like it's been a while since you read the tutorial let me assure you that High sec is never called "Safe." merely "safer" and in all mentions of Concord there is an asside teling you they may not arrive in time to save you, merely in time to kill the agressor.
Sadly I was with you for most of what you wrote, then there was this paragraph. Apologies to the OP if this seems like a derail but this is a suicide gank post and I just can't seem to resist them.
Haha yeah...I guess it is sort of a derail, but oh well. If it is the case that the tutorial makes it clear that suicide ganking is possible and likely if you meet the conditions to be a target, then they are just being stupid. About the 'real pvp'/poor noobs stuff, I guess disregard that...'real pvp' is probably a poorly defined term. Sorry about those poorly thought out statements.
On risk v. reward, I was getting at the fact that with suicide ganking there (appears to be) very little risk. You can calculate the amount of damage you'll hit him for, and approximate the gain/loss based on loot/lost ships. So, it seems to have about as much risk as invention (where you could screw up again and again, but in the long run you will have a steady income).
PS: I did die once with a hauler with 300mil in zyd. I was flying afk . When this happened, I just told myself...never again (and since then have avoided suicide ganking...although I've done semi risky things like afk flight in a ceptor with 50mil in BPs).
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Is hitting enter after every sentence now a new meme?
Its better than having tl dr/wall of text issues.
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lady2isis
Philae Temple
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Posted - 2008.05.23 09:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Slickdrac I don't even care for your stuff, I just want your char, if he's 5 years old as you say. I'll even pay the transfer fee
i'll PVP you for his char! loser pays the transfer fee :P i am who i am; therefor i am Her |
Galan Amarias
Dark Tide Rising Rule of Three
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Posted - 2008.05.23 12:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Shakuul Haha yeah...I guess it is sort of a derail, but oh well. If it is the case that the tutorial makes it clear that suicide ganking is possible and likely if you meet the conditions to be a target, then they are just being stupid. About the 'real pvp'/poor noobs stuff, I guess disregard that...'real pvp' is probably a poorly defined term. Sorry about those poorly thought out statements.
Even if the tutorial isn't brutally honest about it the devs are in the link below my sig, assuming my sig hasn't vanished again.. grr.
Originally by: Shakuul
On risk v. reward, I was getting at the fact that with suicide ganking there (appears to be) very little risk. You can calculate the amount of damage you'll hit him for, and approximate the gain/loss based on loot/lost ships. So, it seems to have about as much risk as invention (where you could screw up again and again, but in the long run you will have a steady income).
I agree that high sec seems to be a candy tree these days for the folks with the sec to be able to gank idiots. My point is, that the risk and reward there are entirely player controlled. Players make the gank ships cheap and then really really stupid players afk with absurd wealth over long distances. No insult to you, you did it once with not all that much isk and when you blew up you made the correct descision, EVE is a game to be played, not AFK'd.
Originally by: Shakuul
Sorry about those poorly thought out statements.
Wow, an adult, a rational thinking adult. All is more than forgiven.
-Galan
The answer to empire ganking |
Quaxtl
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Posted - 2008.05.23 14:32:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Quaxtl on 23/05/2008 14:32:20 There is no risk in suicide ganking if the perpertator does not want there to be. He can risk his battleship to suicide that shuttle with just a single officer mod or whatever, and risk not getting anything. But thats as far as it goes. Hmm... perhaps if they randomized cargo scanners like ship ones... but they havent so...
Suicide ganking is a part of this game, it always has been and it always will be. And that is made perfectly clear 5 minutes into the gank.
To the OP - Sandbox games and shelf life. If anything, they have a greater 'shelf life' than any other game. You have listed reasons that make up a tiny percentage of the game (at least, now they do). My god. You sound like a high sec carebear...
Go play WoW. And give me your account while you are at it; you dont even have to go through that transfer nonsense -.-
Ah appologies... people comlpaining about suicide ganking always works me up... I'm sure you will be missed. May you fly safe Harpo, fly safe...
Edit: Galan Amarias, good stuff...
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Spike 68
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:21:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Spike 68 on 24/05/2008 04:23:03
Originally by: Harpo
If suicide bombers today in "real life" were to remain alive and given $500 mil if they destroyed a building, they would be as rampant as they are in Eve.
lulz internet spaceships with immortal-billionaire-rock star-ship captains = real life. Oh and its pretty rare to get podded after a highsec suicide gank so you don't even actually die in game
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