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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.05.25 18:46:00 -
[91]
Originally by: JVol
Oh really? No real life anology? Let me paint a quick picture then.. In RL, you see a very large angry man bristiling with guns all over him, including the red hot smoking gun in his hand, hes standing over the corps of one of 4 gentelman hes just had a 'disscussion' with and is going thru the pockets of the first guy, the one closest to him.
Do you decide to beat him to the second corps and start tearing thru the pockets? Not if self preservations high on your prioritys your not. Why? Because any moron can see the ovious threat here and KNOWs if they take this guys stuff, they will be laying next to the other 4.. Eve hasnt got that risk vs reward built in atm..
You are describing a situation where a rabid criminal has murdered several people and is about to steal their stuff. The killing was illegal, rooting through their pockets is illegal, and as a third party, rooting through the pockets of murder victims is illegal. Real life concord would want to tow you in for the stealing, and probably kill you for the murders if you were still armed and not in the mood for surrender. Transfer this to EVE and you would be concorded long before you had the chance to look through anybodys pocket. In real life, if you kill or disable someone "legally" in self defence or as a soldier in war, you still don't get any rights to his personal property.
Real life analogies are often flawed in comparison with games, as yours is, and also beside the point; a cheap tool for those who can't argue their point in the relevant context, which is that of the game world.
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Patri Andari
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Posted - 2008.05.25 19:03:00 -
[92]
Originally by: The PitBoss .. grow some BALLS and post with your main ...
IF this is your main .. JUST grow some balls
Grow your own balls. Post with your industry, mining or research alt. We ALL know you have them. You certainly are not making any isk pirating.
BTW I may be in the market for a freighter BPC in the near future. Any referrals?
Patri
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Mjeh
STRONG POLITIK
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Posted - 2008.05.25 20:48:00 -
[93]
death to vultures
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JVol
The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.05.25 23:56:00 -
[94]
Once the devs sit down and talk about this it will change, no doubt in my mind. With faction warfare comming, carebears venturing out into spoon fed pvp, THEY are gonna want their loot. The same guys putting up lame, stereo typical responces "go to 0.0 to pvp" or "grief this and grief that" will be screaming their fool heads off for change. Ya know what?? THEY WILL GET IT TOO!! Dev's in the end ALWAYS lean to the carebear side, so worst case we'llneed to wait for the screams of carebears... can ya hear them? I can
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.05.26 01:24:00 -
[95]
/signed.
Must be extremely annoying in high-sec.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
AtomizerX
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Posted - 2008.05.26 01:49:00 -
[96]
I can't say I support this issue, but I see where some of you are coming from. A player's wreck is his own, which is different from NPC wrecks. In order for the suggested mechanic to work you'd have to change ownership of a player's wreck to the attacker(s). I don't necessarily support that either, but I think it would make sense if that was the case for wrecks belonging to players who initiated aggression; if you are attacked first and destroyed your wreck should only belong to yourself.
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Arges
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.26 04:11:00 -
[97]
This really needs to be changed and this thread gets my full support.
Obviously, the wreck belongs primarily to the pilot of the ship but those who killed it in a legal situation should also have ownership rights to it. As it has been mentioned many times already, simply giving ownership status to the pilots on the killmail or to the one with the final blow would pretty much settle the issue. ------------------------------ Arges
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Patri Andari
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Posted - 2008.05.26 04:37:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Patri Andari on 26/05/2008 04:40:37
Originally by: Cpt Branko /signed.
Must be extremely easy..err annoying in high-sec.
There. Fixed that for ya
Piracy in high sec should be either less rewarding than piracy in low or null sec or come with its own brand of hassles. There are fewer risks. If a few vultures picking at your carcasses is that hard to handle, try dodging gate guns while you loot. Then again I am sure you have already, did not like it and came to live in the luxury of high sec. Must say I am a bit surprised to see actual risk takers (read, Real Pirates) support this.
Do not seem to recall much of this support when missioners complained about loosing wrecks/salvage in a very similar fashion. But then again I guess birds of a feather YARR together.
Patri
edit: spaleing
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aUTOKILL
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.05.26 06:38:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Patri Andari ...Piracy ...piracy ... Real Pirates......
ummm i dont think you GET what we're actually talking about here... It's NOT about piracy... It's about when you kill a wartarget and some noob comes up and takes **** from your epic battle.
"piracy" in highsec is can flipping, and suicide destroying. Each of which when they kill their victims they have another chr to scoop the loot. ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
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Patri Andari
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Posted - 2008.05.26 07:32:00 -
[100]
Originally by: aUTOKILL
Originally by: Patri Andari ...Piracy ...piracy ... Real Pirates......
ummm i dont think you GET what we're actually talking about here... It's NOT about piracy... It's about when you kill a wartarget and some noob comes up and takes **** from your epic battle.
"piracy" in highsec is can flipping, and suicide destroying. Each of which when they kill their victims they have another chr to scoop the loot.
OBJECTION!
It is certainly about piracy, high sec piracy. Something your corp does not engage in nor has need to since your kills and losses are almost exclusively in null or low sec. But just for you, I shall call it high sec war.
High sec war (fart)is mostly promulgated for 2 reasons: 1. Merc contracts to settle a score or hurt competitors or 2.... legalized piracy (sorry had to say the word). I have yet to see any true Mercenary characters championing this cause. No sir, this issue is being championed by those who wish the profits low sec piracy in the luxury of high sec.
Now that I think about it, it is perhaps you who is unenlightened if you do not see exactly what is going on here. Waring factions in 0.0 or low sec have no need for mechanics to establish their claim to loot and wrecks. They rule by the gun as they should. Podding is expected and cursed is anyone who dares to steal loot. In high sec the rules are different and they should be.
Any other group that wines to make high sec life similar to the benefits of 0.0 and you guys bring out the "STFU Carebear" or "Grow a pair and come to low/null sec" references. Just because this issue helps benefit a groups that do PVP in high sec instead of any other profession and it is okay?
The emperor has no clothes!
Patri
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.26 07:59:00 -
[101]
Originally by: The Jackhammer
Originally by: Piitaq Yeah its frustrating to see someone else steal your hard work, without being able to do anything about it!
I know just how you feel!
Problem is people just laugh when carebears get ripped off, but whines when PvPer does
Ohh the hypocracy
Difference being .. when a carebear gets his ore stolen ...
1. He can shoot the FLAGGED thief
2. HIS CORPMATES can shoot the FLAGGED thief
PVPers have NO repercussions ... they have to sit there AND watch thier work run off ..
Originally by: Dav Varan No.
Wreck belongs to Victim.
Grow a pair and PVP in low sec / null sec rather than high sec suicide ganking then you can shoot anyone who goes for the loot.
Concord should not support suicide gankers.
What about LEGAL war targets? ... I'm in no way supporting OR condemning suicide gankers ...
Originally by: Sigul Siento .... I haven't seen anywhere any rule saying that a war dec gives the dec'er rights to the property of the dec'ee ....
Hey BRAINIAC .. thats what this forum is for ... TRYING to create change where people feel the rules need to be 'adjusted' ...
We've been exposed to your 'insightful' opinion now ... so please run along to ANOTHER thread ...
NOTED: Thats 1 more vote against ..
There is a little point you are conveniently forgetting: if one of the friends in the same corporation of the target recover the loot, with your system it will get flagged to you and your corporation (we all know how can/wreck looting work). That will be surly wonderful for people suicide ganking in high sec, as the friends of the killers will have free targets if the corpmates of the original ship owners try to recover the loot. Not so wonderful for the target and friends.
So it is a clear no as it will primarily help high sec ganking, a profession that is already too much supported.
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aUTOKILL
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.05.26 08:02:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Patri Andari
It is certainly about piracy, high sec piracy. Something your corp does not engage in nor has need to since your kills and losses are almost exclusively in null or low sec. But just for you, I shall call it high sec war.
Actually, we are at war and have had many war decs... and had the people we are at war with even send mercs after us.
And on the note of Low Sec Wars, The reason for the war dec in lowsec is generally so you dont lose sec status, so you can go to empire still. And when noobs come in and start looting wrecks of people you killed after a major battle, you can not just kill them... as they just keep coming like ants, while you're quickly making your way down to -5.
The killrights help solve this as you can kill them w/o losing any sec status!
and next time you begin to say stuff about a corp/alliance i hope you do your research next time.
ps... IT"S NOT PIRACY IF THERE IS A WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.26 08:05:00 -
[103]
Originally by: aUTOKILL
Originally by: Patri Andari ...Piracy ...piracy ... Real Pirates......
ummm i dont think you GET what we're actually talking about here... It's NOT about piracy... It's about when you kill a wartarget and some noob comes up and takes **** from your epic battle.
"piracy" in highsec is can flipping, and suicide destroying. Each of which when they kill their victims they have another chr to scoop the loot.
I think you are missing some of the point of what you are suggesting. A change in wreck ownership will not influence only "legit wartarget" or other legal targets. It will influence all ownership rules, thus giving a further boost to high sec suicide ganking.
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aUTOKILL
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.05.26 08:10:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
I think you are missing some of the point of what you are suggesting. A change in wreck ownership will not influence only "legit wartarget" or other legal targets. It will influence all ownership rules, thus giving a further boost to high sec suicide ganking.
ok, so leme see if i get what you're saying
Person 1 suicide ganks person 2. With the new idea implimented, the wreck would be person 1's. Person 1 loses his ship, ummm well, he can't really do anything about people that take the loot can he... Can't exactly dock and get a new ship due to 15min GCC.... His alt hauler that is most likely sitting by him would have to scoop the wreck. and will prolly do so faster than anyone can get to the wreck and take it.
so i dont really see HOW it would giving a boost to suicide destroying... ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
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dark'illuminati
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.26 08:21:00 -
[105]
Good idea, should have been implemented a long time ago. Fully agree. |
Patri Andari
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Posted - 2008.05.26 08:45:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Patri Andari on 26/05/2008 08:51:26
Originally by: aUTOKILL
Originally by: Patri Andari
It is certainly about piracy, high sec piracy. Something your corp does not engage in nor has need to since your kills and losses are almost exclusively in null or low sec. But just for you, I shall call it high sec war.
Actually, we are at war and have had many war decs... and had the people we are at war with even send mercs after us.
And on the note of Low Sec Wars, The reason for the war dec in lowsec is generally so you dont lose sec status, so you can go to empire still. And when noobs come in and start looting wrecks of people you killed after a major battle, you can not just kill them... as they just keep coming like ants, while you're quickly making your way down to -5.
The killrights help solve this as you can kill them w/o losing any sec status!
and next time you begin to say stuff about a corp/alliance i hope you do your research next time.
ps... IT"S NOT PIRACY IF THERE IS A WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I shall attempt to meet you where you are. You get benefits from declaring the war and those benefits give you certain privileges in high sec,(some you have enumerated above) but they also come with restrictions and hassles. It is after all different than low sec or null sec so this makes sense.
Congratulations! You have just paid Concord War fees!
Here is what you get:
1. the right to blow up war targets- In high sec 2. the right to pod war targets- In high sec 3. the right commit the above without interference from Concord or Sentry fire- In high sec 4. the right to commit the above without loss of security status - In high sec
Here is what you do not get:
1. the right to harm neutrals- In high sec 2. the right to use AOE weapons without consequence- In high sec 3. the right to free and unobstructed looting and salvaging of war target wrecks - In high sec
For these and other fine benefits we are sorry but you have to get your a** out of high sec or figure out a work around.
Thank you!
P.S. IT'S NOT CHEATING IF YOU DON'T GET CAUGHT!!!!? Or something like that.
edit: spaleing
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aUTOKILL
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.05.26 08:53:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Patri Andari
For these and other fine benefits we are sorry but you have to get your ass out of high sec or figure out a work around.
this has nothing to do with the discussion about the proposed ideas. please refrain from posting such remarks.
Originally by: Patri Andari
1. the right to harm neutrals- In high sec
they souldnt be neutral if they take from your kill's wreck. that's exactly what this topic is about..... ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:04:00 -
[108]
Oh God some people are dense :-)
I love how you make PvE and PvP equal when it suits your cause.
NOT supported (there should be a not-supported checkbox and final score on each thread heading).
You are already commiting and aggressive act (be it with or without wardec) and you want more protection for yourself. Not going to happen. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Lt Angus
Wicked Crew
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Posted - 2008.05.26 11:38:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Oh God some people are dense :-)
I love how you make PvE and PvP equal when it suits your cause.
NOT supported (there should be a not-supported checkbox and final score on each thread heading).
You are already commiting and aggressive act (be it with or without wardec) and you want more protection for yourself. Not going to happen.
and you call them dense, re read the thread, might take a few times
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Temitten
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Posted - 2008.05.26 11:41:00 -
[110]
It makes sense
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.26 12:01:00 -
[111]
Originally by: aUTOKILL
Originally by: Venkul Mul
I think you are missing some of the point of what you are suggesting. A change in wreck ownership will not influence only "legit wartarget" or other legal targets. It will influence all ownership rules, thus giving a further boost to high sec suicide ganking.
ok, so leme see if i get what you're saying
Person 1 suicide ganks person 2. With the new idea implimented, the wreck would be person 1's. Person 1 loses his ship, ummm well, he can't really do anything about people that take the loot can he... Can't exactly dock and get a new ship due to 15min GCC.... His alt hauler that is most likely sitting by him would have to scoop the wreck. and will prolly do so faster than anyone can get to the wreck and take it.
so i dont really see HOW it would giving a boost to suicide destroying...
Very simple, and I think you are trolling or very naive if you don't see it:
Alt in hauler is in the same corp of the ganker, he loot the wreck, thje wreck belong to a member of his corporation, so he has no aggression timer toward anyone, including the corp of the original owner.
So even if the original owner was an escorted freighter or industrial the escort can't retaliate against the one scooping the loot.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.26 12:02:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/05/2008 12:03:37 duble post
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.05.26 15:15:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Alt in hauler is in the same corp of the ganker, he loot the wreck, thje wreck belong to a member of his corporation, so he has no aggression timer toward anyone, including the corp of the original owner.
So even if the original owner was an escorted freighter or industrial the escort can't retaliate against the one scooping the loot.
Solution was already proposed; dual ownership. Meaning, both the victim and the killer get kill rights when a third party scoops loot. A freighter scooping loot is technically the third party (everyone actually on the KM is blown up) and therefore gets flagged to the attackers (which were concorded) and the victim (which wasn't). If you give ownership ONLY to the people on the killmail, sucide gankers don't get to fire on third party stealing loot because, well, they're out of ships for the next 15 minutes, while the escort still can. So it doesn't help suiciders at all.
Who it does help are people fighting wars. I imagine it's a huge pain for them atm.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Dharden Vehr
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Posted - 2008.05.26 17:31:00 -
[114]
I support the decision to have this issued addressed
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Tai Paktu
Mortis Incarnatus
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Posted - 2008.05.26 17:59:00 -
[115]
This idea, I'm supporting it. ______
http://eve-files.com/sig/TaiPaktu/sig3.PNG |
Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:11:00 -
[116]
Supportin dis
-- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot |
Aadi Grox
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:15:00 -
[117]
if you have ever pvped in high sec, then you want this
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Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.05.26 18:34:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Patri Andari
Originally by: The PitBoss .. grow some BALLS and post with your main ...
IF this is your main .. JUST grow some balls
Grow your own balls. Post with your industry, mining or research alt. We ALL know you have them. You certainly are not making any isk pirating.
BTW I may be in the market for a freighter BPC in the near future. Any referrals?
Patri
Sorry, couldn't resist :x
Quote: Marchant LaCroix > go get yerself some Cajones mr rooker. * Rooker cuts off marchant's ******* with a spork Rooker > ok, now what? * Marchant LaCroix takes his cajones back and staples them in place. Marchant LaCroix > get yer own ya lazy begger.
-- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.26 19:04:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/05/2008 19:06:47
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Alt in hauler is in the same corp of the ganker, he loot the wreck, thje wreck belong to a member of his corporation, so he has no aggression timer toward anyone, including the corp of the original owner.
So even if the original owner was an escorted freighter or industrial the escort can't retaliate against the one scooping the loot.
Solution was already proposed; dual ownership. Meaning, both the victim and the killer get kill rights when a third party scoops loot. A freighter scooping loot is technically the third party (everyone actually on the KM is blown up) and therefore gets flagged to the attackers (which were concorded) and the victim (which wasn't). If you give ownership ONLY to the people on the killmail, sucide gankers don't get to fire on third party stealing loot because, well, they're out of ships for the next 15 minutes, while the escort still can. So it doesn't help suiciders at all.
Who it does help are people fighting wars. I imagine it's a huge pain for them atm.
I.E. redo completely ownership (currently there is no dual ownership), hope it work, get it so that if a people with ownership of a wreck take from it get aggressed to other people with ownership, make it select what is the right people the one taking the stuff is aggressed only against the right group, hope it all work flawless to make happy the people that want to wardec in empire.
No thanks, for that level of work we can have the drones redone so they work flawlessy or half of a big expansion.
This point in particular If you give ownership ONLY to the people on the killmail, sucide gankers don't get to fire on third party stealing loot because, well, they're out of ships for the next 15 minutes, while the escort still can. So it doesn't help suiciders at all is wrong from the start. What it will do to all the other wreck ownership rules? "My corpmate ship was destroyed I will recover the loot. What, I can't tractor it, I will have a aggression flag if I take from it? Opps I am not on the killmail."
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aUTOKILL
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.05.26 19:26:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
It can seem nitpicking, but that is what the developers need to program before it can work, so clearing all those little problem will take ages of developement.
umm.. isnt that what sisi is for. so the programers can test and make it work before it hits TQ.
""My corpmate ship was destroyed I will recover the loot. What, I can't tractor it, I will have a aggression flag if I take from it? Opps I am not on the killmail.""
dual ownership.. he will be able to tractor it and the agression flag wont matter cause if suicided, the party on the km cant do ****, and if war dec... well they shouldn't be looting until the field is clear, so the other party wont be able to do anything anyways. ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
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