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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:10:00 -
[1]
Simply make it optional, like constellation and region chat. If you want to see who's in the system, look in local, but you won't see who's not in there. Conversely, not being in local hides you from everyone in the system, but means you can't see who's in local.
In Empire, people can simply stay in there for obvious reasons. No reason why not to be, and it makes sense to use it for social purposes or trade. But still, having the option should make it much less viable as the uberscanner tool.
EVE History Wiki
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Epegi Givo
New Eden Manufacturing and Missions
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Posted - 2008.05.24 05:41:00 -
[2]
this may just work, why hasn't anyone thought of it before.
10000000000000000000000........000000000% support
Originally by: DroneCommander
Originally by: Isiskhan My mother's name is Rolricka. Yes, I'm being 100% serious.
Dude! Your mum got RolRick'd!
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Raven Timoshenko
Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.05.24 08:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Reiisha Simply make it optional, like constellation and region chat. If you want to see who's in the system, look in local, but you won't see who's not in there. Conversely, not being in local hides you from everyone in the system, but means you can't see who's in local.
In Empire, people can simply stay in there for obvious reasons. No reason why not to be, and it makes sense to use it for social purposes or trade. But still, having the option should make it much less viable as the uberscanner tool.
This..is...so...simple...it..just..may...work! Removable Implants and Money Sinks |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2008.05.24 08:58:00 -
[4]
Oh good, now I can send my scout alt in to see who's in local, and then come in with my pirate main to wtfbbqpwn anyone I find.
Just taking it out would work better, but that ain't gonna happen is it?
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Velox Idolon
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Posted - 2008.05.24 11:34:00 -
[5]
In the most recent live devblog they said they were looking at putting local into delayed mode - only the total number of locals is visible, and players can choose to become visible by talking.
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Raven Timoshenko
Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.05.24 11:37:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Raven Timoshenko on 24/05/2008 11:38:12 server glitch caused a double post Removable Implants and Money Sinks |
Raven Timoshenko
Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.05.24 11:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Oh good, now I can send my scout alt in to see who's in local, and then come in with my pirate main to wtfbbqpwn anyone I find.
Just taking it out would work better, but that ain't gonna happen is it?
Sure taking it out would work better but this is a pretty effective compromise. Besides if someone pops into local only to pop back out again, and you dont have the foresight to see that its an alt.... Removable Implants and Money Sinks |
Sir Substance
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Posted - 2008.05.24 11:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Raven Timoshenko
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Oh good, now I can send my scout alt in to see who's in local, and then come in with my pirate main to wtfbbqpwn anyone I find.
Just taking it out would work better, but that ain't gonna happen is it?
Sure taking it out would work better but this is a pretty effective compromise. Besides if someone pops into local only to pop back out again, and you dont have the foresight to see that its an alt....
indeed. no molly-coddling here. if your not smart enough to stay alive in eve, you get toasted.
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.05.24 12:59:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Reiisha on 24/05/2008 13:01:11
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Oh good, now I can send my scout alt in to see who's in local, and then come in with my pirate main to wtfbbqpwn anyone I find.
Just taking it out would work better, but that ain't gonna happen is it?
Sending an alt into local will absolutely work.
...
Except if the people you're looking for aren't in local either.
It works both ways, you know.
EVE History Wiki
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Epegi Givo
New Eden Manufacturing and Missions
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Posted - 2008.05.24 22:30:00 -
[10]
bump for the best idea ever.
Originally by: DroneCommander
Originally by: Isiskhan My mother's name is Rolricka. Yes, I'm being 100% serious.
Dude! Your mum got RolRick'd!
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.05.26 05:44:00 -
[11]
I have yet to see any (proper) criticism on it?
EVE History Wiki
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z0de
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.05.26 05:58:00 -
[12]
Edited by: z0de on 26/05/2008 06:00:08 So local will be full of alts, noobs and no real players. Your idea is remove locals info gathering ability with no replacement.
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Hermia
Steel Daggers Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.05.26 06:19:00 -
[13]
Excellent idea, it would be a start.
Most discussion about removing local (which this effectively does) usually follows with "Ok thats great, but our ship scanners need an overhaul". Its a valid statment because players harvesting in deap territory will be clicking that refresh button every 2 seconds.
Dont get me wrong tho, i really want to experiance the blackout of 0.0 and the sence of scale this would bring. So if this idea coincides with a better scanner its a clear winner.
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.05.26 22:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: z0de Edited by: z0de on 26/05/2008 06:00:08 So local will be full of alts, noobs and no real players. Your idea is remove locals info gathering ability with no replacement.
Removing locals info gathering ability is exactly why we want local to be changed. Also, this is not removing local, it's making it optional. There is almost no reason for people in empire to close it, so they probably won't. In 0.0 it's a choice people will have to make.
Originally by: Hermia Excellent idea, it would be a start.
Most discussion about removing local (which this effectively does) usually follows with "Ok thats great, but our ship scanners need an overhaul". Its a valid statment because players harvesting in deap territory will be clicking that refresh button every 2 seconds.
Dont get me wrong tho, i really want to experiance the blackout of 0.0 and the sence of scale this would bring. So if this idea coincides with a better scanner its a clear winner.
You can use the scanners regardless of whether you're in local or not. I don't see how one affects the other, beyond using the current scanner a little more. If anything, deep space harvesters will have less time to react since they can't depend on local/beans anymore to warn them. Farmers will probably stay out of local, but will have no idea that there might be 50 people probing them out in the system - etc etc.
Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you mean exactly?
EVE History Wiki
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Epegi Givo
New Eden Manufacturing and Missions
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Posted - 2008.05.27 14:27:00 -
[15]
bump up again, I would like this feature added
Originally by: DroneCommander
Originally by: Isiskhan My mother's name is Rolricka. Yes, I'm being 100% serious.
Dude! Your mum got RolRick'd!
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Doxs Roxs
Free Collective The OSS
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:08:00 -
[16]
Your idea sucks, I like local. Cannot even imagine how crap any roaming op would be if we didnt even know if there are hostiles to shoot in the system. What do you want scouts to do, fly to every single object in the system and scan or do you propose that we should use probers just to see who is in system??!?!? After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead... |
Sig Sour
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Posted - 2008.05.27 16:33:00 -
[17]
Local is about the only defense weapon I have against pirates. If I am in a mission, I cant be cloaked and I don't have the time to spend on the d scan. If they are in a covert ops - recon ship, d scan wont do anything anyway. If your lucky enough to catch a probe on your scan you're probably too late. **On that note, how about adding probes to the overview so I don't have to sift through every POS component & wreck out there to find a probe.
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.05.28 01:49:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Doxs Roxs Your idea sucks, I like local. Cannot even imagine how crap any roaming op would be if we didnt even know if there are hostiles to shoot in the system. What do you want scouts to do, fly to every single object in the system and scan or do you propose that we should use probers just to see who is in system??!?!?
That's exactly why local should be nerfed. 0.0 especially suffers from local, as it encourages blobbing more than anything else. You know how many they have, so you want to have more, and vice versa.
Black ops ships also suffer from this. You can't really use the ships because people know you're in local anyway.
Local has become too much of a convenience, too powerful of an intel tool. It should be a tool for communication only, not for assessing someone's strength.
Originally by: Sig Sour Local is about the only defense weapon I have against pirates. If I am in a mission, I cant be cloaked and I don't have the time to spend on the d scan. If they are in a covert ops - recon ship, d scan wont do anything anyway. If your lucky enough to catch a probe on your scan you're probably too late. **On that note, how about adding probes to the overview so I don't have to sift through every POS component & wreck out there to find a probe.
You're looking at it very one-sided here - pirates can't see if someone is coming after them either. They won't be fast enough if your friends decide to probe *them* out. Swings and roundabouts. That is, of course, providing you're not daft enough to solo everywhere in low and no sec and expect to be invulnerable in a game that thrives on non-consensual pvp... In that case, you might want to check out WoW, or something, as you can do missions there as much as you want without ever having to fear to be attacked.
One thing this will very probably also do is shrink 0.0 territory considerably. It's not as easy to keep watch over an entire region, and alliances will very probably find that they will have to fall back to a few constellations or a region, depending on their numbers, rather than trying to occupy space that's far beyond their cabability to handle.
It is also interesting to see how many people complain about any change to local, as it will remove their invulnerability and lust for instant gratification.
EVE History Wiki
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Kiki Arnolds
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Posted - 2008.05.28 05:29:00 -
[19]
Imo the "solution" to local needs to not result in endless spamming of the scan button to stay alive. Simply removing local without giving ANYTHING to replace it will suck. My solution would be optional local and the ability to recieve an alert when a new ship appears within scan range (unless cloaked). It wouldn't tell you who, but it would tell you someone new was around giving you a few moments to flee... ç¦ |
Katana Seiko
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Posted - 2008.05.28 05:49:00 -
[20]
Well, if Local is to be removed, we also need to remove moons and belts from the overview. Make them probable or something like that. Onboard scanners should auto-refresh then, too. You can't have one without removing the other. The only place to find ore up to now are belts (okay, little exceptions, but those are drained within minutes). A player that wants easy miner prey flies to a belt beacon. Well done, he'll most likely find someone. Other way around, find the pirate? Right, you can only scan for him. Is that unfair or what?
Removing Local needs some work to be done before - otherwise it will make all 0.0 production come to a standstill. --- "Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign for a diseased mind." -Terry Pratchett |
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Doxs Roxs
Free Collective The OSS
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Posted - 2008.05.28 07:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Doxs Roxs Your idea sucks, I like local. Cannot even imagine how crap any roaming op would be if we didnt even know if there are hostiles to shoot in the system. What do you want scouts to do, fly to every single object in the system and scan or do you propose that we should use probers just to see who is in system??!?!?
That's exactly why local should be nerfed. 0.0 especially suffers from local, as it encourages blobbing more than anything else. You know how many they have, so you want to have more, and vice versa.
Black ops ships also suffer from this. You can't really use the ships because people know you're in local anyway.
Local has become too much of a convenience, too powerful of an intel tool. It should be a tool for communication only, not for assessing someone's strength.
You fail to take into account the fact that a removal of local would make recon ships insanely overpowered. Personally I would actually do fine since I can fly recons and roaming ops would still work, but it would be a ***** to find targets, and that would be pretty booring tbfh...
Now imagine it from a defensive point of view, how would you like to hold space if you had to permacamp ALL entrances to your space or risk getting 20-40 man recon gangs in your systems. Recon gangs that cannot be probed, cannot be seen on scanners and will gank anything they manage to probe or find etc. How would you deal with them when you would have no idea they are even there? And if they see you trying to mount a defensive gang, we would just move on without the defender even knowing we left. Unless they got people camping all gates all the time a recon gang could disperse in all directions.
Blobbing has nothing to do with local, you still get hostile gang within scan range and list ships to assess strength. If you got the right ships and the hostiles are in the wrong ships, numbers dont matter, you still win.
The idea to remove local is ill concieved and poorly thought through.
Regards /Doxs After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead... |
ShadowlordUK
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.05.28 11:23:00 -
[22]
Removing local would make roaming gangs far, far more interesting.
OMG you might actually have a chance of scanning something down before it cloaks and logs!!!
Im not quite seeing how removing local makes controling space any harder either...
Oh great a 300man blob has just entered system... guess what guys, because we know its there we can... erm.. yeah gl guys.
Currently, if the enemy is a stronger force and want to come into your space, they will anyway.
What you really mean is making space safe to rat in, its nothing to do with controlling space.
Removing local is bad for 0.0 ratters and good for pvp'ers. But tbh, for most people, this game is about pvp.
If you give people a choice between much more interesting pvp + needing to rat with friends nearby, or the current alternative of doing roaming ops where you dont get to shoot anything for hours because everybody is safespotted I know what the majority vote would be.
If you happen to be one of those people who just join a 0.0 allience purely so you can make loads of isk ratting in their space in almost complete security, without every joining any pvp ops.
Well GL explaining that to the people who enjoy pvp and spend their time indirectly keeping you safe.
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Chalkor
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Posted - 2008.05.28 12:32:00 -
[23]
I like that idea. I'm a covert ops pilot, and it sucks, that all ppl in local know that you are there, wether you are cloaked or not. Stealth Bombers and Covert Ops aren't able to warp in cloaked, so you have always the risk/chance of being detected before you can hide.The local is a kind of supersystemscan, that kills a bunch of the most interesting risks/tactics of the cloaked ships. And to the people, that whine, because they can't use the local to scout then...I guess, you didn't really understand the sense of a scout, did you? Of course you need to warp in, scan the system by yourself or warp from belt to belt to station to see if the person/fleet you are looking for is there. And to not warn these people/fleets there are the covert ops frigates, that warp all the way while cloaked. Except they appear in local...no hidden scouting is possible and these frigates lose a big part of their intended possibilities. Using or even just accept the local as an early warning/scouting tool contradicts the characteristics of many specialiced ships and give pilots a safety and possibilities they shouldn't have depending on their skills and ships. So in my oppinion the only logical conclusion to let the players use 100% of their ships given possibilities and tactics is to make the local optional in the way Reiisha recommended or let the cloaked spacecrafts disappear in local while cloaked. Ok, maybe this should come together with an automatic refresh of the system scanners... Maybe there should be even specialized scanners added, that are able to find cloaked ships... But for exhausting the tactical possibilities that are given with these ships and taken by the local its just essential. I hope that the EvE-developers will have an open ear for this issue some day... Meum est propositum in taberna mori. |
Yamato Gasaraki
Morpheus industries
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Posted - 2008.05.28 14:16:00 -
[24]
Totaly /signed
I hate local. All People who I need to talk to are in seperate Channels I have all the Time open, #Local is superfluous to me. Contracts are for a Reason. ---- Become one with the Void, leave behind your earthen Fears, Desires, Hopes. Don't let it fill you out, consume your Soul, your very being, making you dull. |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.05.31 06:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Doxs Roxs You fail to take into account the fact that a removal of local would make recon ships insanely overpowered. Personally I would actually do fine since I can fly recons and roaming ops would still work, but it would be a ***** to find targets, and that would be pretty booring tbfh...
It wouldn't make them overpowered, it would make them useful. It will mean that more ship types will have to be used in fleets, rather than the cookie cutter BS/dread gank.
Originally by: Doxs Roxs Now imagine it from a defensive point of view, how would you like to hold space if you had to permacamp ALL entrances to your space or risk getting 20-40 man recon gangs in your systems. Recon gangs that cannot be probed, cannot be seen on scanners and will gank anything they manage to probe or find etc. How would you deal with them when you would have no idea they are even there? And if they see you trying to mount a defensive gang, we would just move on without the defender even knowing we left. Unless they got people camping all gates all the time a recon gang could disperse in all directions.
That's also a good reason for this change. It would force alliances to lay claim to much smaller amounts of space, down to a couple of constellations or just a few systems. Right now it's too easy for a good alliance to keep hold of 2-3 or more regions - It keeps newer players out. Almost all the alliances right now are run by people who got into 0.0 at day one. Forcing them to focus more on smaller amounts of space and more focused warfare gives the inevitably growing fresh population of EVE a chance to lay claim to some 0.0 themselves, rather than having to join existing alliances.
Also, scanning your own systems could simply be solved by sovereignty levels. At level 3 or 4, you might be able to put in a system scanner, alerting you when ships not allied to you are in it. However, this would have to exclude black ops (covert ops, recon, black ops) in order to not make it overpowered, and introduce the local effect again.
You wouldn't have to have to camp all day long. You still have your defenses for POS etc, and you can't stop an invading force from attacking your POS no matter whether local is there or not, you'll know where they attack regardless.
This would also warrant the introduction of station sentry guns and maybe some npc police options for the occupants, after sov4 has been held for x months (or a year+), and it wouldn't unbalance the game too much due to the smaller amount of space being held. It would only discourage guerilla warfare in those systems aswell, and provide no imba defense against full blown invasions, obviously.
Originally by: Doxs Roxs Blobbing has nothing to do with local, you still get hostile gang within scan range and list ships to assess strength. If you got the right ships and the hostiles are in the wrong ships, numbers dont matter, you still win.
The idea to remove local is ill concieved and poorly thought through.
Regards /Doxs
Local means that people can log on an alt, look at how much people a party has in local, and either find more of his own or not bother with it at all. Removing local as an intel tool for this means that you can't as easily determine where and how strong your opponent is, you actually have to look for them. You can easily say that you can scan them out, but it sure does take a much, much longer time to do that than simply look at how many people in local. Due to the time this will take, information might not be reliable anymore after a certain amount of time has passed on certain systems, and so you will be forced to choose on how to continue based on where you *think* they are and how strong you *think* they are rather than making decisions based on the number of people in local.
It also makes probing a much more important job, as it's not just a tool to find logged out titans anymore :P
EVE History Wiki
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Kayne Darklight
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2008.05.31 13:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 26/05/2008 05:47:59 Simply make it optional, like constellation and region chat. If you want to see who's in the system, look in local, but you won't see who's not in there. Conversely, not being in local hides you from everyone in the system, but means you can`t see who`s in local
/Signed
I`m stealing bits from various posts, so credit to each of them.
As Shadowlord says, this would make roving gangs far more interesting. Insecure space would be that bit more exciting, with people playing cat and mouse, and cov ops ships would actually be properly covert for the first time in their lives.
No need to remove the belts or moons from overview, as they`ve been marked by beacons by the survey teams who built the jump gates.
An automatic alert (big red flashing light) from the built in scanner to say that a warp tunnel has been detected within scan range would eliminate the need to spam the scan button, but would still cause fear and paranoia. You only know it`s there, not where it started, or where it`s leading to...
Out of curiosity, is there a CCP reason why local isn`t optional, yet the other two starmap related channels are?
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Hermia
Steel Daggers Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.05.31 14:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kayne Darklight An automatic alert (big red flashing light) from the built in scanner to say that a warp tunnel has been detected within scan range would eliminate the need to spam the scan button, but would still cause fear and paranoia. You only know it`s there, not where it started, or where it`s leading to...
Something like an automatic alert for close proximity of warp tunnels would be welcome after local removal.
Reiisha's point about the shrinking of territorial space is spot on, it needs to happen. The current situation (with local tool) eases the control of large swaiths of space and ends up reducing the amount of people in 0.0.
Covert ops would enjoy a massive role after the removal of local, something thats very welcome and is the kind of colaborative effort eve was designed for.
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Raven Timoshenko
Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.05.31 14:24:00 -
[28]
As I said I like this idea only problem is the whole auto scanner thing. What about say in high sec? given the huge amounts of traffic your scanner will be going for every second.
The only way maybe then is to have IFF setting for your scanner. You decide whether it should be relaying information about war dec targets, low standings, neutrals etc. War in EVE is like a box of chocolates. You never know which is the really nasty one with the horribly hard nougat center. |
Galan Amarias
The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2008.06.01 00:39:00 -
[29]
Take out local and the prey will be even less likely to enter 0.0 and low sec. They can't feel safe. If you update the system map to have an avg number of players in system in the last 5 min button that would make up a lot of the difference but it'd be lag from heck. Everyone pings the scan button or it pings itself automatically still endless lag.
You want to decrease the functionality of local, remove the show info option on everyone's head. Then it's just an arbitrary nuber. Remove local all togeather and we'll just lose any chance of anything but nano gangs and force recon gangs in 0.0 no one will fly solo.
The answer to empire ganking |
Vanessa Vasquez
planet eyeQ
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Posted - 2008.06.01 09:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Velox Idolon In the most recent live devblog they said they were looking at putting local into delayed mode - only the total number of locals is visible, and players can choose to become visible by talking.
this. Local should be setup to "recent speakers". You choose to apear by just typing a message
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