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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.05.28 23:35:00 -
[91]
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Wendat Huron With the amount of friendly fire going on there's a strange logic in the rounds not being too lethal.
Let's not argue about who shot up who.
???
This has to do with this thread how?
If you check and read the article beyond the link of the OP you might have a clue.
I did, its a guy saying the m14 is more lethal then the m16...
What does this have to do with friendly fire?
Friendly fire with less deadly bullets is less deadly, do you want it in all caps?
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.28 23:38:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Wendat Huron With the amount of friendly fire going on there's a strange logic in the rounds not being too lethal.
Let's not argue about who shot up who.
???
This has to do with this thread how?
If you check and read the article beyond the link of the OP you might have a clue.
I did, its a guy saying the m14 is more lethal then the m16...
What does this have to do with friendly fire?
Friendly fire with less deadly bullets is less deadly, do you want it in all caps?
So we make our weapons less powerfull because we assume we will pop eachother? No thanks.
And on that note I would rather get hit by an m14 round then an m16 any day.
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Fink Angel
The Merry Men
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Posted - 2008.05.28 23:46:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Bakkus Been quite a while since i was in military (and all our kit was pretty old and crappy tbh)so i never really got to use any of the funky new systems that are around now. I have seen a documentary showing this sniper system and i must admit i found myself grinning
That middle bullet looks really pointy. Someone could really cut themselves on that!
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Orion Eridanus
Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.05.28 23:59:00 -
[94]
Hey guys I got some new Sony speakers
Originally by: Paulo Damarr That is a most Excellent Drake fitting, you are lucky to have survived.
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.05.28 23:59:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Bakkus Been quite a while since i was in military (and all our kit was pretty old and crappy tbh)so i never really got to use any of the funky new systems that are around now. I have seen a documentary showing this sniper system and i must admit i found myself grinning
thats hot ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.29 00:02:00 -
[96]
Originally by: HankMurphy
Originally by: Bakkus Been quite a while since i was in military (and all our kit was pretty old and crappy tbh)so i never really got to use any of the funky new systems that are around now. I have seen a documentary showing this sniper system and i must admit i found myself grinning
thats hot
The stock could use some work but the rest is awesome.
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Keorythe
Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.05.29 00:14:00 -
[97]
Originally by: goodby4u Your not getting the point, its not about pain or bleed out ability, its about knock down power, headshots, and bonecrushing force.
The 5.56 is great for causing alot of pain and damage to organs, the 7.62 is great for knocking the enemy down or just outright destroying an organ so the guy dies sooner.
Sadly, you haven't learned to read. Knock down is pretty much worthless. Not even the 7.62x51 has enough kinetic force to do more than knock someone off balance, a headshot with just about any caliber is almost fatal, and bonecrushing applies to most calibers that make contact with the bone. The 7.62x51 doesn't destroy organs, it peforates a hole in them. The 5.56x45 turns them into pulp within 150m. Its doesn't cause pain it kills. Please stop referencing rumors that don't apply. The biggest disadvantage with the 5.56x45 is that it loses alot of its devestating power past 150m.
Quote: I can't remember the name of the plant but they chew on it in the middle of the day which causes rage and numbness
Its called Khat and everyone over there is on the stuff. That still goes back to the Mogodishu kid rumor. No one can substantiate the rumor. Its alway a kid or grown up is shot in the chest which goes right through or shot a few times and there is no effect or is knocked down and gets up or charges and "almost" kills some guy or runs away and later dies. Personally I think some guy took a shot, missed, and claimed that it was this big...err that he hit the kid squarely.
Quote: If your helmet can stand the force of a 7.62 round then to bad because the impact will most likely break your neck.
Kevlar alone can't stop rifle rounds, heck they can't stop some pistol rounds either. Currently only the Russians have a helmet which supposedly can withstand a rifle round but weighs a ton from the amount of titanium and steel content.
Quote: The barrett .50 cal is banned from war because of its grain count(ie its an anti vehicle weapon thats used against soldiers sometimes)and we still use it in places like iraq
Urban Legend. The .50 banned rumor has been around for a very very long time. There is nothing in the Hague or Geneva convention which bans its use on human nor any provision stating caliber size vs humans. Hitting someone with a 120mm sabot is perfectly legal.
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.29 00:23:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Keorythe
Originally by: goodby4u Your not getting the point, its not about pain or bleed out ability, its about knock down power, headshots, and bonecrushing force.
The 5.56 is great for causing alot of pain and damage to organs, the 7.62 is great for knocking the enemy down or just outright destroying an organ so the guy dies sooner.
Sadly, you haven't learned to read. Knock down is pretty much worthless. Not even the 7.62x51 has enough kinetic force to do more than knock someone off balance, a headshot with just about any caliber is almost fatal, and bonecrushing applies to most calibers that make contact with the bone. The 7.62x51 doesn't destroy organs, it peforates a hole in them. The 5.56x45 turns them into pulp within 150m. Its doesn't cause pain it kills. Please stop referencing rumors that don't apply. The biggest disadvantage with the 5.56x45 is that it loses alot of its devestating power past 150m.
Quote: I can't remember the name of the plant but they chew on it in the middle of the day which causes rage and numbness
Its called Khat and everyone over there is on the stuff. That still goes back to the Mogodishu kid rumor. No one can substantiate the rumor. Its alway a kid or grown up is shot in the chest which goes right through or shot a few times and there is no effect or is knocked down and gets up or charges and "almost" kills some guy or runs away and later dies. Personally I think some guy took a shot, missed, and claimed that it was this big...err that he hit the kid squarely.
Quote: If your helmet can stand the force of a 7.62 round then to bad because the impact will most likely break your neck.
Kevlar alone can't stop rifle rounds, heck they can't stop some pistol rounds either. Currently only the Russians have a helmet which supposedly can withstand a rifle round but weighs a ton from the amount of titanium and steel content.
Quote: The barrett .50 cal is banned from war because of its grain count(ie its an anti vehicle weapon thats used against soldiers sometimes)and we still use it in places like iraq
Urban Legend. The .50 banned rumor has been around for a very very long time. There is nothing in the Hague or Geneva convention which bans its use on human nor any provision stating caliber size vs humans. Hitting someone with a 120mm sabot is perfectly legal.
1)Have you ever seen what a 7.62 can do to an organ?Its brute force and has more kinetic energy then the m16's 5.56 will ever have.
The m16 is great for making somebody bleed out, they go down because of the pain... Which ofcourse is null and void by the drug.
2)Well then I guess you know more then the history channel eh? Believe what you want to believe but I believe they are fully capable of using this drug.
3)A pistol round will be stopped by body armor(thats why our soldiers use the m4 instead of the mp5 sometimes)...Ofcourse an m16 round usually punches through.
4) Linkage section 4 read it.
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Keorythe
Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.05.29 00:37:00 -
[99]
Originally by: goodby4u 1)Have you ever seen what a 7.62 can do to an organ?Its brute force and has more kinetic energy then the m16's 5.56 will ever have.
The m16 is great for making somebody bleed out, they go down because of the pain... Which ofcourse is null and void by the drug.
2)Well then I guess you know more then the history channel eh? Believe what you want to believe but I believe they are fully capable of using this drug.
3)A pistol round will be stopped by body armor(thats why our soldiers use the m4 instead of the mp5 sometimes)...Ofcourse an m16 round usually punches through.
4) Linkage section 4 read it.
1. Why yes I have as a matter of fact. Having used a number of calibers on wild boar I can tell you alot about what different calibers will do flesh. Many hunters can do the same if they've cleaned their own kils.
2. Oh I have no doubt that they chew the drug. I have no doubt that non-fatal wounds are shrugged off by some chronic users. However, the key is non-fatal. This applies to both light and heavy calibers equally.
3. The newer helmets are made out of resin bonded kevlar (why they got the name K-pots). The old helmets were thin steel. Helmets are rated for fragmentation resistance only. Out of luck the new ones will stop some pistol rounds only.
4. Oh you meant California banning the 50cal. California has banned alot of stuff. Heck you can't even have a pistol grip on an AR-15. Circumventing the California pistol grip law
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.29 00:44:00 -
[100]
Edited by: goodby4u on 29/05/2008 00:45:24
Originally by: Keorythe
Originally by: goodby4u 1)Have you ever seen what a 7.62 can do to an organ?Its brute force and has more kinetic energy then the m16's 5.56 will ever have.
The m16 is great for making somebody bleed out, they go down because of the pain... Which ofcourse is null and void by the drug.
2)Well then I guess you know more then the history channel eh? Believe what you want to believe but I believe they are fully capable of using this drug.
3)A pistol round will be stopped by body armor(thats why our soldiers use the m4 instead of the mp5 sometimes)...Ofcourse an m16 round usually punches through.
4) Linkage section 4 read it.
1. Why yes I have as a matter of fact. Having used a number of calibers on wild boar I can tell you alot about what different calibers will do flesh. Many hunters can do the same if they've cleaned their own kils.
2. Oh I have no doubt that they chew the drug. I have no doubt that non-fatal wounds are shrugged off by some chronic users. However, the key is non-fatal. This applies to both light and heavy calibers equally.
3. The newer helmets are made out of resin bonded kevlar (why they got the name K-pots). The old helmets were thin steel. Helmets are rated for fragmentation resistance only. Out of luck the new ones will stop some pistol rounds only.
4. Oh you meant California banning the 50cal. California has banned alot of stuff. Heck you can't even have a pistol grip on an AR-15. Circumventing the California pistol grip law
1)Well heres the problem, most organs in your body will not instantly render you dead if hit(lungs brain and heart maybe a couple others)But I guess it is a hard arguement between which one is more affective, I would call this arguement a tie only because there are different types of rounds for the two rifles.
2)Depends on if it hits your head directly or at any type of angle, I once had a video of a soldier getting hit with a 7.62 round to the helm(I believe it was a dragunov)and get back up.
3)????I guess it was changed because I read about the barrett about a month ago and it had said it was banned from use in places such as france and britain, I guess wiki is just that way.
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Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
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Posted - 2008.05.29 03:03:00 -
[101]
Originally by: goodby4u 2)Well then I guess you know more then the history channel eh? Believe what you want to believe but I believe they are fully capable of using this drug.
Please, don't quote the History Channel on anything. They reference quacks and unsubstantiated rumor all the time.
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.29 03:36:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Frezik
Originally by: goodby4u 2)Well then I guess you know more then the history channel eh? Believe what you want to believe but I believe they are fully capable of using this drug.
Please, don't quote the History Channel on anything. They reference quacks and unsubstantiated rumor all the time.
Well I dont get any other kind of history reference on tv nor can I trust stuff such as wiki.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.29 03:54:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 29/05/2008 03:55:41 Yeah, Discovery or nothing!
and the Chey Tec M200... I'd rather take that $30,000 and buy a nice car
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
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Posted - 2008.05.29 03:57:00 -
[104]
Originally by: goodby4u Well I dont get any other kind of history reference on tv nor can I trust stuff such as wiki.
Then I suggest getting a library card, or reading the sources that wikipedia cites. The History Channel, like almost everything on TV, is fluff.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Shadow Company Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.05.29 05:58:00 -
[105]
Originally by: goodby4u
1)Well heres the problem, most organs in your body will not instantly render you dead if hit(lungs brain and heart maybe a couple others)But I guess it is a hard arguement between which one is more affective, I would call this arguement a tie only because there are different types of rounds for the two rifles.
If you've ever hunted you'd know that not even a perfect lungshot (collapsing both lungs but not shredding the heart or aorta) is a guaranteed instant kill if the animal is agitated. Especially not on more aggressive types of animals like moose, boar or bear. You have to shred the heart, aorta or nervous system (brain or spine) to insure an almost instant kill.
From what I've been told though from doctors, if a bullet manages to shatter the femur a human is most likely down and out no matter how jacked up he is.
P.S: Based on the results of Vietnam surgery records (or rather Dr. Martin Facklers interpretation of Vietnam surgery records) 5.56 is more likely to cause an "instantly" lethal wound than 7.62 if you hit the "golden triangle" (head, throat, lungs, heart and diaphragma), thanks to its tendency to shatter. Both will shatter ribs if they hit (and the target isn't going to ignore it no matter what), but if you don't the 5.56 is more likely to shred the lung or diaphragma rather than create a clean(er) puncture wound. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.29 06:20:00 -
[106]
Edited by: goodby4u on 29/05/2008 06:20:18
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: goodby4u
1)Well heres the problem, most organs in your body will not instantly render you dead if hit(lungs brain and heart maybe a couple others)But I guess it is a hard arguement between which one is more affective, I would call this arguement a tie only because there are different types of rounds for the two rifles.
If you've ever hunted you'd know that not even a perfect lungshot (collapsing both lungs but not shredding the heart or aorta) is a guaranteed instant kill if the animal is agitated. Especially not on more aggressive types of animals like moose, boar or bear. You have to shred the heart, aorta or nervous system (brain or spine) to insure an almost instant kill.
From what I've been told though from doctors, if a bullet manages to shatter the femur a human is most likely down and out no matter how jacked up he is.
P.S: Based on the results of Vietnam surgery records (or rather Dr. Martin Facklers interpretation of Vietnam surgery records) 5.56 is more likely to cause an "instantly" lethal wound than 7.62 if you hit the "golden triangle" (head, throat, lungs, heart and diaphragma), thanks to its tendency to shatter. Both will shatter ribs if they hit (and the target isn't going to ignore it no matter what), but if you don't the 5.56 is more likely to shred the lung or diaphragma rather than create a clean(er) puncture wound. 7.62 rounds can be hollow point aswell, and also can be made to make more shrapnel(their bigger so they make more).
This is why you or I cannot argue over this anymore as 7.62 vs 5.56 isnt accurate enough.
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mama guru
Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.29 09:41:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Wrayeth It's not bullet size > all. It's bullet size + velocity > all.
The Density of the material also carries great importance when it comes to armorpeircing. Smaller+Harder= good
But then i guess the insurgents in iraq does not really carry body armor with Ceramic plates now do they? since thats the case then stopping power is what you want.
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
Micheal Dietrich
Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.05.29 14:47:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Frezik
Originally by: goodby4u Well I dont get any other kind of history reference on tv nor can I trust stuff such as wiki.
Then I suggest getting a library card, or reading the sources that wikipedia cites. The History Channel, like almost everything on TV, is fluff.
Guess your gonna say the same thing about the military channel even though I can cite the same references they make in several books.
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Keorythe
Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.05.29 22:25:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Guess your gonna say the same thing about the military channel even though I can cite the same references they make in several books.
The military channel is usually pretty good although they tend to dumb down alot of stuff for civies who don't really understand whats going on. Future weapons while entertaining and a great way to showcase your product is pure crap though.
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DrHolliday
Aristotle Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.05.30 00:48:00 -
[110]
Second hand knowledge coming up, so correct me if I'm wrong (and judging by the amount of Richard-waving in this thread I'm sure someone will correct me even if I'm right).
The problem with 5.56 is not so much the round itself, but more the barrel length of the M4. One of the reasons 5.56 was adopted was that you could carry around three times as much 5.56 as you could 7.62. That was fine until the M16 was judged to be too long, and they shortened it. So now the M4 firing the 5.56 does not have sufficient barrel length to accelerate the round to the velocities it was previously being fired at. The result: it takes on average three times as much ammunition to take someone down/win a fight. I've heard that the velocity degradation is so bad that at sufficient but not extreme range, you can stop 5.56 from an M4 with a very wet greatcoat. - Reject GTC Price Hike: Thread | CSM |
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Micheal Dietrich
Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.05.30 00:52:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Keorythe
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Guess your gonna say the same thing about the military channel even though I can cite the same references they make in several books.
The military channel is usually pretty good although they tend to dumb down alot of stuff for civies who don't really understand whats going on. Future weapons while entertaining and a great way to showcase your product is pure crap though.
I like to watch the show Dogfights. They show some really cool things.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.30 01:50:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 30/05/2008 01:53:08 Weaponology is my favorite show
*Edit: And the PASGT helmet system was never designed to stop a bullet, it's designed to deflect them. a job it does very well
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
Keorythe
Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.05.30 02:49:00 -
[113]
Originally by: DrHolliday Second hand knowledge coming up, so correct me if I'm wrong (and judging by the amount of Richard-waving in this thread I'm sure someone will correct me even if I'm right).
The problem with 5.56 is not so much the round itself, but more the barrel length of the M4. One of the reasons 5.56 was adopted was that you could carry around three times as much 5.56 as you could 7.62. That was fine until the M16 was judged to be too long, and they shortened it. So now the M4 firing the 5.56 does not have sufficient barrel length to accelerate the round to the velocities it was previously being fired at. The result: it takes on average three times as much ammunition to take someone down/win a fight. I've heard that the velocity degradation is so bad that at sufficient but not extreme range, you can stop 5.56 from an M4 with a very wet greatcoat.
Sorta yes sorta no. The barrel length and velocity are the keys here but not so much in penetration. With a 16 inch barrel an m855 5.56x45 will have enough velocity to fragment between 100-150m. Anything past that point and it only tumbles which is all that the 7.62x51 and 7.62x32 will do. However, the M855 is smaller than the 7.62 so it does less tissue damage if its only tumbling. The an M855 fired out of an M4 has a fragmentation range of about 50-75m. Some of the really short barrel (10 inch) CQB rifles only have an effective fragmentation range of 20m. At 500m the M855 out of a 16 inch barrel can still penetrate both an old steel pot and kelvar helmets but in soft tissue it doesn't tumble that great due to energy loss. Still fatal but not as much as it is at short ranges.
Now the new Mk262 Designated Marksman round on the other hand is bigger and fragments at much lower velocities. It also retains alot more penetration energy for short and much longer ranges (it was made for DM's duh). It feeds through and M4 and M16A4 fine but the M249 supposedly has problems with it. However, the military as usual has been slow to order large amounts of the stuff.
Here is a video of a guy firing a 75gr round (.223 is civilian numbers while 5.56 is military) at a steel target at 860. The mk262 is a 77gr round. You can still see the round disintegrating under its own force at that range so still decent energy. Long Range Shooting
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.30 03:35:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 30/05/2008 03:35:39 Fun fact... the Mk262 is a hollow point round
Take that Geneva Suggestion!
*Edit: And the M249 has a problem with any ammo you put in it
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
Keorythe
Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.05.30 06:33:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 30/05/2008 03:35:39 Fun fact... the Mk262 is a hollow point round
Take that Geneva Suggestion!
Yes it is! However, they managed to pass it since the tip is made to balance the bullet for better accuracy. Sadly it doesn't cause expansion.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.30 07:10:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 30/05/2008 07:10:06 Well, it's a step in the right direction.
Who knows... maybe in another decade we'll be firing black talons balanced with rock salt
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
Royaldo
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.01 02:26:00 -
[117]
Yes lets all pray we fire more guns in the future!
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Dodiez
ScaryScaryNoobs
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Posted - 2008.06.01 05:28:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Originally by: pwnedgato Edited by: pwnedgato on 27/05/2008 21:18:37 Edited by: pwnedgato on 27/05/2008 21:17:52 I say no matter what rounds we issue they should all be infused with pig blood somehow. Then begin announcing that we will be using rounds treated in such a manner.
Edit: First of all a 5.56 round will in most cases kill anyone hit in the torso that fails to receive medical care. Problem is the "not moving anymore" part of death tends to come a bit later than most would like. Simply allowing hollow point rounds would fix almost any problem related to the 5.56. Now as far as switching to inherently more lethal rounds I have heard good things about those new caseless 6.8mm rounds.
That's a lie!!! We never put bacon grease on our rounds!
The 6.8mm round is the very definition of awesome... controls like a 5.56, hits almost as hard as a 7.62.
Glad someone finally brought it up
P.S We never put bacon grease on our rounds
Oh, I like you.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.01 11:52:00 -
[119]
It's just a morale booster
() () (â;..;)â (")(") |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.01 14:59:00 -
[120]
oddly enough with all the advances in guns we have had. many people still consider the Shotgun and the Colt 1911 army to be the best close quarters guns around for personal defense.
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