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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.05.29 10:02:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Effy Muller The argument here is purely about the falcon being overpowered. [...]I lost a ship to a gang with a falcon when [...] they definately had a falcon). [---] So please, convince me that the falcon is not overpowered compared to the other recons in its class. [...] I have no problem with ECM. I just think the falcon should not have the strength AND range bonus of the rook.
The thing with this argument is that it assumes that all ships in the same classes should be balanced toward eachother. The fact is they're not, that's not just a matter of the recons - it's a matter of all ship classes. Some races have better ships in one category, and which one it is seems to be up for debate (Falcon being a contender for the recons class).
I agree with you that the falcon could use a modification in terms of it's range. It does make the rook useless. And that's just plain silly. If the range bonus got cut a bit, I think the falcon would be fine.
Whether it's immensely overpowered though I can't agree with. I see them go down too many times for that statement to be true. And assumptions about pilot error are pretty much pointless as the same is true for any class of ships (there ARE a lot of talentless pilots in this game that fly all kinds of ships).
Though what I don't really understand is why you do not fit for the occasion (ECCM). That's how we've dealt with falcons since they became FOTM, and it's worked out pretty well thus far. Adapting to a common tactic isn't that difficult. Having huginns or rapiers in gang to deal with pesky nanoships work just fine, as does ECCM.
With the range change on the falcon, I would say it would be no need for debates such as this.
Black Hand.
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Valtis Thermalion
Humantarget The Polaris Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.29 10:03:00 -
[212]
Personally I wouldn't care if range bonus of falcon would be nerfed to 10% or something similar, as long as the jammer strength bonus would be left alone. Falcon *needs* to jam multiple ships somewhat reliably, otherwise it would be as useless as gallente recons are at the moment.
On the other hand falcon in it current form forces people think beyond basic 20km gank-tank-fest in which gallente ships excel and actually makes anti-support snipers such as caldari gunboats more useful. As a falcon pilot I usually have only one caldari jammer and eccm-rokh or eagle could really ruin my day if hostile gang has even one of them.
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Elphy
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.05.29 10:08:00 -
[213]
FAAALLLLCCCOOONNNNN PPPUUNNNCCHHH!!!
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Merdaneth
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.05.29 10:15:00 -
[214]
I don't think Falcons are immensely overpowered.
They are show-stoppers for small gang fights however. Appearance of a Falcon on one side in a roughly equal 5 vs. 5 gang fight, will cause the gang without a Falcon to disengage or be totally destroyed, usually without the opportunity of even taking down one hostile ship with them.
Additionally, the EW mechanism used (unable to lock anything) is a very frustrating game mechanic. It makes players feel utterly powerless, and that's not fun in games. People usually feel better going down fighting than just sitting their unable to do anything but wait until your number comes up.
As member of a corporation that only flies Amarr (and thus having a shortage of mid slots to begin with), we usually face only racial jammers. Battleships and BC's need 2x ECCM to be able to function at least somewhat dependable. Smaller ships usually don't have the mids and sensor strength to do anything.
Appearance of a single Falcon requires us to have at least double numbers to try and engage, or requires a complete refit of the gang just for trying to take out to Falcon so that we can get 'back to business'. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.05.29 10:34:00 -
[215]
hmm I fail to see the official part ...
I thought you have a Dev or GM response in such a sense but it's just your own delusional ranting ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Keeves
Sexy Pirate Club
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Posted - 2008.05.29 10:39:00 -
[216]
Killed 2 Falcons couple days ago (1 solo)... Crymore?
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masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.05.29 10:39:00 -
[217]
save the falcon! dont nerf it!
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omglollolol
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:08:00 -
[218]
STOP, STOP it! STOP the goddamn singing! ____________________________ You may not share my intellect, which might explain your disrespect, for all I say ;p _________________ |
Burning Towel
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:17:00 -
[219]
Falcons are only used in gang that suck at pvp. They need the falcon to give warp core stabs to their gang so they can all run away if they get fight thats too big, or they need the falcon stop the single ship they gank from fighting back so whole gang of 50 can pile on to get on the killmail cos they all suck at small gang or solo so theyt need blob of falcon to get chance of getting on a killmail. |
fathitman
Woopatang The Red Skull
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:18:00 -
[220]
Edited by: fathitman on 29/05/2008 11:18:32 Well we have taken down camps that had falcons and all we had was interceptors. It was great.
Go threw gate, rush towards EW and take him down. ----------------------------
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Discordia Duenna
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:24:00 -
[221]
If people actually read Druidz posts you'd see that he is just asking for the falcon to be bought more inline with every other ship of the same class across each race. The falcon has made the rook obselete, the same cannot be said for the Huginn, Pilgrim, Lachesis.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:30:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Burning Towel Falcons are only used in gang that suck at pvp. They need the falcon to give warp core stabs to their gang so they can all run away if they get fight thats too big, or they need the falcon stop the single ship they gank from fighting back so whole gang of 50 can pile on to get on the killmail cos they all suck at small gang or solo so theyt need blob of falcon to get chance of getting on a killmail.
Wait, having an option to evade a significantly larger gang for a smaller gang is your definition of sucking at PvP? So not sucking would be just to die?
Your argument is as horrible as it is flawed. PvP in EVE is not just the ability to activate damage mods, it's about everything from scouting, to micromanaging mods, to fitting for the occasion. The definition of "suck at pvp" should rather be those who cannot adapt to situations that go beyond simple numbers and guns, which is exactly what ECM brings to the equation.
So, dear troll alt, go flame elsewhere.
Black Hand.
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Burning Towel
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:38:00 -
[223]
when you using your falcons to stop a ship firing it is not fun pvp. you may as well do ratting in belt where you kno you always win. |
Discordia Duenna
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:41:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Burning Towel when you using your falcons to stop a ship firing it is not fun pvp. you may as well do ratting in belt where you kno you always win.
It is fun for the falcon pilot.
It isn't fun when I get killed cause a curse has drained my cap either....
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:44:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Burning Towel [...]you always win.
Nope, plenty of gangs with falcons in them have tried to kill us, a few times they succeeded because we didn't have a good counter. When we did, falcons dropped out of the sky as if it was Gehenna.
Black Hand.
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Timaios
Art of War Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:44:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Effy Muller
From what I've seen most of the anti falcon posts have been put forward calmly and to the point whereas most of the pro falcon posts have been peppered with insults and scathing sarcasm to try to reinforce their argument.
(disclaimer: I fly falcons. I also fit ECCM. Just to tell you that I have experience on both sides of the fence.)
Not really. Many of the arguments against the falcon are just very ignorant, which causes grief. Many examples are more of a case of falcophobia: falcon is assumed to always have warp-in spots around the combat zone at it's optimal range and it will always be assumed to be fitting the correct racial jammers, it will always have seven jammers (no MWD but it will in any case be at a perfect spot to utilize it's jammers to maximum effect), ECCM against it will always be ineffective and so on.
(I really don't understand the ECCM is ineffective -arguments: nobody probably would dare to claim that doubling the EHP of a ship is ineffective just "because you will eventually die anyway".)
Attributing one's problems or losses to the falcon in such situations are not very convincing, since it can easily be argued that one was beaten because the enemy was prepared while the losers weren't. Nobody has seemed to state that the falcon is overpowered when jumping into a system with its' buddies to break a prepared gatecamp, for example. To me, this sounds like that the falcon is an excellent asset to gang who has set up in a prepared position but in other situations, it does not seem to be as efficient. This is in line with my own experiences and to me, that sounds rather balanced.
In your own words, you simply stated that "you lost a ship and there was a falcon involved". And on basis of that, you ask us to convince you that the falcon is not overpowered. To put it bluntly, you can't really argue that a falcon is overpowered on basis of that. In general, anecdotal evidence is utterly worthless. To argue for something to be overpowered or underpowered one needs to design scenarios where the ship is very powerful and situations where it is not. If the former are more prevalent, the ship is probably too effective in too many situations. If the latter are, then the ship is too specialized to be of use. In the paragraph above I argued that the ship is balanced. If you disagree, you'd need to present large group of scenarios where the falcon is too effective and point out that in all these cases possible counters are ineffective. All I've seen so far is the "prepared gatecamps with falcons are impossible to break" -argument.
The effectiveness of a ship and it's counters cannot really be compared in situations where one ship is given the perfect surroundings (for falcon: always at max range, always having correct racial jammers, always having premade tactical bookmarks) and the other ship (say, a nanoship) is not. Also, like Tobias Sjodin pointed out, ships _inside_ it's class are not necessarily balanced. A hyperion can easily be set up as a short range blasterboat or an effective sniper ship. A rokh will be a better sniper but will never be even a decent blasterboat, for example. Some ships are just far more focused and specific (rook), while some ships are capable of being versatile (curse, arazu) and taking on a variety of targets.
Some posters, such as Agipa Penrose, point out very good and specific examples where they feel the falcon is unbalanced. I found myself agreeing on many of the issues you raised. On the other hand, I feel that the main factor causing the falcon to be most effective against you is the negative sec status of the pirates, which allows the opposing falcon not to be targeted by sentry guns. If this was not the case, the falcon would take heavy damage from the sentries or often be unable to cloak as it is locked by the sentry guns, reducing it's effectiveness.
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Krulgatha
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Posted - 2008.05.29 11:50:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Timaios
I feel that the main factor causing the falcon to be most effective against you is the negative sec status of the pirates, which allows the opposing falcon not to be targeted by sentry guns. If this was not the case, the falcon would take heavy damage from the sentries or often be unable to cloak as it is locked by the sentry guns, reducing it's effectiveness.
The falcon can jam outside of sentry range.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:02:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Novemb3r
Originally by: Malcanis Translation: we didn't do any of the many things we could have done to protect ourselves.
I personally have listed seven different ways to counter a falcon in this thread, and that's by no means an exhaustive list. Seven. I'm sorry, but a ship with that many possible counters is in no way overpowered. The problem is that you refuse to use any of them.
You don't fly a falcon, and it seems that you don't prepare your gangs to encounter them. If "everyone and his mother" is flying them and they're so damb devastating, then I can't understand what thought process leads you to the conclusion that it's not worth fitting 1-2 ships in your gang to deal with them, and adapting your tactics a little to get results.
It's not us losing to falcons. It's us using them. We know how the work and the results of using them. We still think they should be nerfed. But we will keep using them until they are.
Good for you then. As long as people refuse to recognise an entire class of ships as a possible threat then that class will be "overpowered" to them.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:08:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Melor Rend Only read the OP and I agree that the Falcon is overpowered compared to other Recons but especially compared to the Gallente Recons.
If the Falcon had been boosted BEFORE the Gallente EW was nerfed then I guess it would have been in line with an Arazu but now that the Arazu (and Damps in general) are a load of bull the Caldari Recons and EW is far to strong in comparison. Either boost other forms of EW (tracking disruptors, damps, painters) or nerf the Caldari EW.
Yes the Arazu WAS overpowered but now it's simply a joke...
The best would be to simply introduce nerf-scripts for ECM as well... so you can either have a higher chance of success (Jamming Script) or lower amount of Cap used (Countermeasure Efficiency Script). Then the Falcon would be nerfed enough to be back in line with other forms of EW and other Recons.
If we're going to talk about inter-racial balance within classes, then there are a whole lot of Caldari ships that will need to be boosted while the Falcon is getting nerfed...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:12:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Merdaneth I don't think Falcons are immensely overpowered.
They are show-stoppers for small gang fights however. Appearance of a Falcon on one side in a roughly equal 5 vs. 5 gang fight, will cause the gang without a Falcon to disengage or be totally destroyed, usually without the opportunity of even taking down one hostile ship with them.
Additionally, the EW mechanism used (unable to lock anything) is a very frustrating game mechanic. It makes players feel utterly powerless, and that's not fun in games. People usually feel better going down fighting than just sitting their unable to do anything but wait until your number comes up.
As member of a corporation that only flies Amarr (and thus having a shortage of mid slots to begin with), we usually face only racial jammers. Battleships and BC's need 2x ECCM to be able to function at least somewhat dependable. Smaller ships usually don't have the mids and sensor strength to do anything.
Appearance of a single Falcon requires us to have at least double numbers to try and engage, or requires a complete refit of the gang just for trying to take out to Falcon so that we can get 'back to business'.
Double numbers? Really? A Curse and a Snipoc will make a pretty effective anti-falcon team, especially if 1-2 other ships are packing a remote ECCM.
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Billy Merc
Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:12:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Armoured C i say bring the scripts let them feel how us arazu pilots feel =)
Me being a falcon pilot would be ok with scripts....PROVIDING our ECM is no longer chanced based..and works everytime like damps on an arazu
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Fivrelde
Fivrelde Corp
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:17:00 -
[232]
Hi! Im a falcon pilot too!
Bring range down to 70+20 without rigs, and 100+50 with rigs. Keep same strength. Increase ECCM to 150% but more on small ships somehow because they have crappy sensor strength to start with and a shortage of mids.
Thats all!
Thank you for reading. |
Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:18:00 -
[233]
I have to admit that I understand where the OP is coming from. My issue isn't so much that I think ECM is overpowered, it is that I think the counter measure mods are under powered. I have a domi that I have fit for PURE support. I love the ship but it amazes me that one ship can STILL screw my gang as bad as a falcon does. The ship packs one ECCM (Personal) 2 remote ECCM's (For gangmates) and ANOTHER ECCM in the low (Can't remember what it's called) Falcons STILL manage to get jams off on my fairly regularly. I'm sorry but there is a problem there. When I can fit TWO defensive mods against one specific ship and it still only works about 40 percent of the time. Something needs adjusted. |
Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:20:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Billy Merc
Originally by: Armoured C i say bring the scripts let them feel how us arazu pilots feel =)
Me being a falcon pilot would be ok with scripts....PROVIDING our ECM is no longer chanced based..and works everytime like damps on an arazu
Do we get to decrease the range to that of damps as well? Also, do we get to change them so that it only breaks the locks of ships outside of 20k? If so then I think most people would agree you have a deal. |
Leviathan9
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:33:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Little Matt
Originally by: Effy Muller
Am I being over sensitive?
Yes.
Maybe we should make Vagabonds need scripts for their Nano's? Or Ishtar's need scripts to buff their drones. Or .....
Really. You want to castrate the falcon at the only thing it does well, when it's already chance based. You had bad luck and got killed. Says to me you were out thought and out planned. Ever thought about ECMing the falcon? ECM burst even? ECM drones. Sensor damps. Etc.
*cough* Arazu *cough*
It happened to the gal Recons, now they're useless. ----------------------------
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mama guru
Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:34:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Armoured C i say bring the scripts let them feel how us arazu pilots feel =)
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
Yoko Lee
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:44:00 -
[237]
I pilot Pilgrim and Falcon, Falcon is so stronger, i can't understand ccp, ccp boosted the falcon, now rook have no interet and falcon became The ship. Pilgrim need a boost, maybe no TD bonus but range neutra/nos bonus. Now you can see a gang with 2/3 falcon, when you can perma jam 2/3 bs with just 1 Falcon...
P.S. : sorry for my english.
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mama guru
Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.29 12:47:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Yoko Lee I pilot Pilgrim and Falcon, Falcon is so stronger, i can't understand ccp, ccp boosted the falcon, now rook have no interet and falcon became The ship. Pilgrim need a boost, maybe no TD bonus but range neutra/nos bonus. Now you can see a gang with 2/3 falcon, when you can perma jam 2/3 bs with just 1 Falcon...
P.S. : sorry for my english.
nobody permajams 2-3 battleships with 1 falcon unless they got 7 or so raicals. Hell even then i doubt its possible.
As for the pilgrim, i agree it needs a boost. The role of the curse and the pilgrim should be cap warfare, not tracking disruption.
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
Blind Jhon
Alenia psy departement
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Posted - 2008.05.29 13:24:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Effy Muller Whether I am a noob or have a crap fit is irrelevant. My point is that compared to other recons the falcon is overpowered.
I was hoping for a decent discussion but I seem to only be getting sarcastic replies
don't worry m8 CCP has a new shuttle just for you apotheosis :) 28 sensor strenght for each race! yum! what are you waiting go take one and have fun!
towards the others... ya know men... they jammed him :facepalm: sig removed, it broke our forums - Mitnal |
Mona X
Polish Task Forces C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.05.29 13:25:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Armoured C i say bring the scripts let them feel how us arazu pilots feel =)
I luw taht aidea. Boost teh flakon!
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