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Error404
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Posted - 2008.06.01 08:35:00 -
[1]
Ok so every guide and player seems to say this which I quote froma guide...
Your first priority in game should be to get all 6 basic Learning skills. Get them all to at least level 3 before you do ANYTHING else.
Ok so a new player enters the game which gives a basic tutorial that's a few hours long which isn't very fun and pretty boring. Afterwards they still feel lost in what they want to do and most just seem to go solo mine in a indy or something and then quit the game because lets face it... that is boring. On top of this they are being told by everyone to train learning skills before they do anything and these are the most boring skills to train cause they don't let you use anything kool.
I'm thinking to myself well firstly the game needs a better tutorial of one which actually goes in depth to what you can do in EVE and gets people into PVP. Most people I see play the game like my mate start out and are too scared to PVP because they are trying to learn but in get instantly killed by gate campers and just get fed up.... would be nice if they had some sorta tutorial PVP getting noobs into it and restricted to using frigates, kinda like a noob BG for the rest of the game.
On top of this though something has to be done about learning skills because I don't see what the point of them is. Veterans already have them all to level 5 and getting even further away from new players int erms of skill points... so I see no real use for them to let new players catch up to older players as they already have them so infact it's having the opposite effect. All that happens is new players just get fedup training them and then quit.... there seems to be a very elitist attitude in these "hardcore" mmorpgs which I hate because they defend stupid game systems which arn't fun cause apparently it makes their **** bigger or something.
I'd just like to see them be deleted from the game or give them another use like having the ability to queue up a certain amount of skills or something but the current system of making training time faster is just stupid because it makes them mandatory and just not very fun for new players and if you think about it... a pretty dumb game mechanic.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 08:42:00 -
[2]
Is there some reason your entirely unoriginal whine couldn't have gone in one of the 500 other learning skill whine threads?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Han LaoTsu
X-Fire space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.06.01 08:47:00 -
[3]
Quote: Ok so every guide and player seems to say this which I quote froma guide...
Your first priority in game should be to get all 6 basic Learning skills. Get them all to at least level 3 before you do ANYTHING else.
On an out of the box caldari achura 9/9/9/9/3 character this takes all of 1 day 3 hours. If new players do not have the patience to last 1 day they aren't going to have the patience to play the game. You think a few hours for a learning skill is bad, what are they going to do when they have to train cruiser 5?
I agree though, people need to make sure they're giving sound advice on learning skills. Getting the basic learning skills to 3 (and most characters start with at least one at 3 or higher anyway) pays off WITHIN THE FIRST WEEK.
Good god, INSTANT GRATIFICATION PEOPLE GO AWAY.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.06.01 09:02:00 -
[4]
to put off new players
what the hell is the point of advanced spaceship command? and even capitol ships? I just want to fly a carrier or dread
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Error404
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Posted - 2008.06.01 09:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Malcanis Is there some reason your entirely unoriginal whine couldn't have gone in one of the 500 other learning skill whine threads?
See heres a example of the elitist unconstructive troll posts from the EVE community..... I mean everyone says how nice communities are in more "hardcore" games but I just tend to find you get more ****heads who are sooo pathetic in real life they have to be a jerk to everyone online so they can finally be big and strong.
Next you'll be saying I'm a noob and should go back to WOW....
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.06.01 09:29:00 -
[6]
The point of the learning skills is to teach you the importance of the difference between instant gratification and long-term gains, as BOTH have their merit, and it's a matter of personal preference how much of each you prefer.
Sure, the lower levels of the learning skills pay off in a matter of hours (L1), then days (L2), then weeks (L3)... so it's not very wise to post-pone them unless you have a good reason. Getting all basic learnings to L3 can take as little as half a day, or as much as 2, even 3 days, depending on starter character. But the farther you progress in the learnings (see the example of L4 basics), the payoff will only come farther away into the future, and there's also a significant portion of ISK involved (the advanced learning skills), and also in the form of implants.
Yeah, it's not FUN. It's supposed to TEACH you to be patient, WHEN to be patient, and WETHER you should be patient at all in a given situation or not. As expected, most people fail to learn any of this and end up just complaining about it.
1|2|3|4|5 |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 09:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Error404
Originally by: Malcanis Is there some reason your entirely unoriginal whine couldn't have gone in one of the 500 other learning skill whine threads?
See heres a example of the elitist unconstructive troll posts from the EVE community..... I mean everyone says how nice communities are in more "hardcore" games but I just tend to find you get more ****heads who are sooo pathetic in real life they have to be a jerk to everyone online so they can finally be big and strong.
Next you'll be saying I'm a noob and should go back to WOW....
It was a genuine question. Whines identical to yours are posted every week or two. They're comprehensively answered.
Here's a little psychology experiment for you. Go find the nicest person you know and ask him a question. Make it a good one.
Then, after he answers you, ask him again.
And again, and again and again.
See how many times it takes for him to tell you to GTFO. I'll make a guess that he'll be pretty rude to you around the 5th iteration. If he makes it to 7, then he's a saint.
I'm not a saint and your OP was far behind the 7th time I've seen this whine.
What the hell, I'll try for canonisation.
CCP now start new players off with 800,000 SP, compared to the 20-80k that the veteran players started with. Call it a 760k SP advantage. 760k SP is almost exactly the number of SP required to train learnings to 4+4, at which point, assuming +4 implants which are reasonably cheap, you'll be learning at over 90% of the rate of a player with perfect learning skills, and at over 95% of the rate of a player with 5+4 learnings (the most common situation). Spend 50% of your training time for the first month training learning skills and then train cybernetics 4, and you'll be at 4+4 and able to fit +4 implants. By the end of that month, you'll have about the same number of non-learning skills as you would if you'd started off with finished (5+4) learnings and the same number of SP that I began with.
But if you want that last 5% then you'll have to put in the time to specialise in learning, just like you'll have to put in the time to specialise in T2 guns if you want that last 8% damage.
In short, you've been compensated in advance. You've taken the money and you've whining about having to the work, then you whined about having to do more work to be as good as the very best.
Then in your second you whined about being called a whiner.
You want sympathy from someone who started as a new player with 40k SP (and there were plenty of veterans with 10s of millions of SP flying back in late 2006, believe it), when basic learning skills had to be trained to level 5 before the advanced ones could be trained?
No.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Alhambra Rainwalker
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.01 10:13:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Alhambra Rainwalker on 01/06/2008 10:16:53 I started with same low sp pool as you did and still pretty much agree with OP. These skills are ugly wart in EVEs skill system. I also keep hearing about specialization percentages but those are misleading.
Specialization will very often bring more benefits than just 5% that is often cited. Lets say you are training large T2 guns. "Noob" of course has basic skill trained to level 4 and "Pro" has spec trained to level 5 because it makes no sense not to train specs for few measly days after you grind last level of basic large gun skill. Noob loses out 5% in damage and 8% in ROF and canŠt use certain ammo types (Barrage and Scorch being maybe best examples). So difference between noob and pro is far bigger than is often assumed.
If you guys are so tired of seeing these threads why do you open them every time and comment on them... You are just bumping it up again and giving it more attention? I see both Akita and Malcanis in pretty much every learning skill thread.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 10:24:00 -
[9]
I'm still waiting for an answer as to why this merited a new thread.
That to the side, you completely ignored the maths and facts in my post. New players are precompensated up to 4+4 learnings. That's the fairest compromise that CCP could have implemented IMO. Reply to that if you will.
Alternatively, if you're going to advocate removing learning skills, I'll take my 2M SP refund in Minmatar Cruiser 5 thanks. I want to try a Vagabond before they get nerfed too.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
ViolenTUK
Vindicated Exiles
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Posted - 2008.06.01 10:26:00 -
[10]
Edited by: ViolenTUK on 01/06/2008 10:26:47
From another thread i replied to:
Learning skills are a very well balanced part of the game and need to stay. I feel that on the whole they actively promote new players since the value of learning skills can be learnt at an early stage. Learning skills help to teach that planning your career and investing time to train for what you need to do. Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them. New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them. I feel if we lost learning skills we would lose part of eve that makes eve what it is.
www.eve-players.com |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 10:33:00 -
[11]
BTW another aspect of learning skills: they reduce alt abuse.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Alhambra Rainwalker
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.01 10:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Malcanis BTW another aspect of learning skills: they reduce alt abuse.
DoesnŠt what CCP did (frontloaded new characters with skills) encourage this more?
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.06.01 10:41:00 -
[13]
Learning skills are good for a primary character, largely useless for the alts on the same account. You typically create an alt with just the skills you need for a specific role.
The difference between getting just 4s with the basic skills and going to 5 and getting the advanced skills is fairly trivial and requires a lot of training to make up the lost time, not something you are likely to do for alts on the same account.
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Stephen HB
Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.06.01 10:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Malcanis It was a genuine question. Whines identical to yours are posted every week or two. They're comprehensively answered.
Here's a little psychology experiment for you. Go find the nicest person you know and ask him a question. Make it a good one.
Then, after he answers you, ask him again.
And again, and again and again.
See how many times it takes for him to tell you to GTFO. I'll make a guess that he'll be pretty rude to you around the 5th iteration. If he makes it to 7, then he's a saint.
I'm not a saint and your OP was far behind the 7th time I've seen this whine.
What the hell, I'll try for canonisation.
CCP now start new players off with 800,000 SP, compared to the 20-80k that the veteran players started with. Call it a 760k SP advantage. 760k SP is almost exactly the number of SP required to train learnings to 4+4, at which point, assuming +4 implants which are reasonably cheap, you'll be learning at over 90% of the rate of a player with perfect learning skills, and at over 95% of the rate of a player with 5+4 learnings (the most common situation). Spend 50% of your training time for the first month training learning skills and then train cybernetics 4, and you'll be at 4+4 and able to fit +4 implants. By the end of that month, you'll have about the same number of non-learning skills as you would if you'd started off with finished (5+4) learnings and the same number of SP that I began with.
But if you want that last 5% then you'll have to put in the time to specialise in learning, just like you'll have to put in the time to specialise in T2 guns if you want that last 8% damage.
In short, you've been compensated in advance. You've taken the money and you've whining about having to the work, then you whined about having to do more work to be as good as the very best.
Then in your second you whined about being called a whiner.
You want sympathy from someone who started as a new player with 40k SP (and there were plenty of veterans with 10s of millions of SP flying back in late 2006, believe it), when basic learning skills had to be trained to level 5 before the advanced ones could be trained?
No.
You are my new favourite person. Every time I see this same bloody whine in the skills (or general, or new players, or features+ideas...) I die a little inside.
Yes, I have a main and an alt with 5/5 learnings. Yes, I am fully aware that they won't pay off until 2010 or so, but who'll be laughing then? ----------
Character creation guide.
Originally by: Adonis 4174 You killed him to annoy him. He self-destructed to annoy you. You're annoyed thus he wins.
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Alhambra Rainwalker
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.01 11:13:00 -
[15]
You are my new favourite person. Every time I see this same bloody whine in the skills (or general, or new players, or features+ideas...) I die a little inside.
Yes, I have a main and an alt with 5/5 learnings. Yes, I am fully aware that they won't pay off until 2010 or so, but who'll be laughing then?
By that time you probably have 100(?) million skill points and whatever time you save is so negnigble that it wonŠt really matter. I doubt CCP will add so many more "must have" skills that whatever deficiency you suffered in the mean time will be made up by having slightly faster training after you are pretty much ancient character whoŠs already done/tried most everything and is just spinning his ships in stations and switching skill trains and maybe chatting with couple mates now and then.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 11:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Alhambra Rainwalker
Originally by: Malcanis BTW another aspect of learning skills: they reduce alt abuse.
DoesnŠt what CCP did (frontloaded new characters with skills) encourage this more?
Indeed it does. Do you think they should continue the trend of catering to the entitlistas?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
TimMc
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.06.01 12:11:00 -
[17]
Newbies need to stop training their skills to 5/4 and *****ing about how long it takes to everyone else.
But if we are gonna take away learning skills, I would like my 2 mil SP into Gallente Cruiser 5 please.
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Durzel
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Posted - 2008.06.01 12:36:00 -
[18]
I agree about the points made regarding PvP, there needs to be some kind of central PvP arena for new players to get to grips with their ships and how they differ (pros and cons) from the other races. As things stand currently, as you say, you do a pretty uninteresting tutorial which doesn't prepare you in any way for the "meat" of Eve.
I suppose someone will tell me now that it's character building for newbies to appear on the wrong side of a busy Empire to low-sec gate into a gatecamp which you have no hope of escaping....
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 13:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Durzel I agree about the points made regarding PvP, there needs to be some kind of central PvP arena for new players to get to grips with their ships and how they differ (pros and cons) from the other races. As things stand currently, as you say, you do a pretty uninteresting tutorial which doesn't prepare you in any way for the "meat" of Eve.
I suppose someone will tell me now that it's character building for newbies to appear on the wrong side of a busy Empire to low-sec gate into a gatecamp which you have no hope of escaping....
That doesn't build character.
It exposes it.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Vanessa Vasquez
planet eyeQ
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Error404
Originally by: Malcanis Is there some reason your entirely unoriginal whine couldn't have gone in one of the 500 other learning skill whine threads?
See heres a example of the elitist unconstructive troll posts from the EVE community..... I mean everyone says how nice communities are in more "hardcore" games but I just tend to find you get more ****heads who are sooo pathetic in real life they have to be a jerk to everyone online so they can finally be big and strong.
Next you'll be saying I'm a noob and should go back to WOW....
This is so true! You'll find that kind of guys in every single thread.
@ Malcanis
If you're so sick of the same whine and moan threads, why don't you just skip reading or even posting, if you must read for some unknown reason ...
@Topic
I agree, learning skills just suck. You have my vote for new players to start with all basic learnings up to 4.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2008.06.01 16:38:00 -
[21]
Yeah get rid of learning skills and drop a nice shiney titan in everyones hangar while we are there as well!
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Sick Sam
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.01 16:57:00 -
[22]
I want it all and I want it now *stamp foot*
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Tellnan Matkiel
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.06.01 17:27:00 -
[23]
As a new player (relatively new anyway, just over three months) I simply don't understand the complaints about the learning skills.
The complaint against them that they are somehow 'must-have' skills is ridiculous. Plenty of other skills in Eve are 'must have' too, but you rarely here complaints about those. It all comes down to a simple question - are you prepared to invest the time in the learnings to learn that bit faster down the line. Really if you are unable or unprepared to make a determination on that question, then what they hell are you playing this game for - because it will be one of the simpler questions the game throws at you.
Put another way - I am prepared to make the investment to max my learnings. I have to accept the consequences that my character will be less able than one of someone's the same age who got their learnings to 4/3 and stopped there. But they have to accept the consequences that they will be learning slower than I, and that at some point down the road I will outstrip them. But in return they will have been able to do more things sooner than me.
Decisions, consequences, all part of Eve. Good practice for later on.
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Ezri Filth
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.01 18:04:00 -
[24]
In MY opinion, CCP should just remove all learning skills from the market and give everyone a flat +9 for the learning skills and +10% for the learning skill (there is one "s" less, you see?).
Learning skills 4tl, give new players a better start.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 18:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez
Originally by: Error404
Originally by: Malcanis Is there some reason your entirely unoriginal whine couldn't have gone in one of the 500 other learning skill whine threads?
See heres a example of the elitist unconstructive troll posts from the EVE community..... I mean everyone says how nice communities are in more "hardcore" games but I just tend to find you get more ****heads who are sooo pathetic in real life they have to be a jerk to everyone online so they can finally be big and strong.
Next you'll be saying I'm a noob and should go back to WOW....
This is so true! You'll find that kind of guys in every single thread.
@ Malcanis
If you're so sick of the same whine and moan threads, why don't you just skip reading or even posting, if you must read for some unknown reason ...
@Topic
I agree, learning skills just suck. You have my vote for new players to start with all basic learnings up to 4.
he never did answer the question though.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Vanessa Vasquez
planet eyeQ
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Posted - 2008.06.01 21:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Malcanis he never did answer the question though.
he? Do i realy look like a guy or was that just a bad try of a deliberate insult? And what question are you talking about?
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.01 22:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez
Originally by: Malcanis he never did answer the question though.
he? Do i realy look like a guy or was that just a bad try of a deliberate insult? And what question are you talking about?
"He" is the indefinite pronoun in English. "Error44" is not obviously male or female. And the question I was talking about was the first question I asked in the thread, which neither he nor you have answered.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Suboran
Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:02:00 -
[28]
learning skills cut the dedicated from the crap tbh. if you cant hack it then quit.
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Nabar Phargal
Anqara Expeditions The OSS
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Posted - 2008.06.02 01:51:00 -
[29]
Do you enjoy watching that skill bar increase? What does your enjoyment in the game have to do with some little clock? Personally, I like flying my ship around, shooting things, and occasionally posting on the forum. I can do that with a starter character. I did enjoy doing that with my starter character (before they boosted the starting SP amount). If you're angry that there's a coded limit to how fast you can train a starter character up to competent titan pilot, then you really should go back to WoW. That is a part of this universe.
As for the learning skills, they differentiate the new characters from the start. Some will train them, some won't. The ones that don't will have some new abilities sooner than the ones that do. The ones that train the learnings will eventually catch up and pass the others. Why is that a problem?
Even if you eliminate the learnings the new character will never catch the old one in raw SP. That's one of the rules of this game. I suspect changing that rule would kill EVE. |
chichi boom
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Posted - 2008.06.02 08:44:00 -
[30]
I think that the learning skills have their place. They give the option of fun stuff right now or more stuff later on. Personally, I have found my learning skill balance by making a skill plan in evemon for something rediculous and not having any learning skills suggested. If I cant shave a few hours off of a 300+ day skill plan, I dont need it. Also, if you think there is a need for a guide that doesnt suggest getting learning skills up, then get a few friends together and make a new one
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