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Resamo
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Posted - 2008.06.03 17:09:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Akita T
I would have absolutely nothing against a third starter skillpackage for each school that would ONLY contain all 11 learnings, L4 for the basics, L3 for the advanced, with a couple of L4 advanceds or even a L5 basic depending on starter school... but beyond that, only L1 gunnery, L1 racial turret, L1 starship command and L1 racial frigate, for a grand total of roughly 800k-ish SP (on par with the rest of the starter packages - ok, maybe add one or two extra skill levels here and there if you're short on SP total balance).
It was actually one of the things I proposed myself a while ago.
Not that any genuine new player would have any significant benefits from, but it would certainly cut the whining to a minimum, since that choice I was speaking about (instant reward vs delayed advantage for a price) is presented in the starter choices instead spread out across half a month during the trial.
And that's about the ONLY additional concession CCP should even consider at all.
This is the solution we need... it works out to roughly the same and allows people the choice. None of this give everyone skills crap. i would be fine with this solution.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.03 18:30:00 -
[62]
the only problem is that it's giving a starting player 22M ISk worth of skillbooks.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Resamo
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Posted - 2008.06.03 18:58:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Malcanis
the only problem is that it's giving a starting player 22M ISk worth of skillbooks.
I dont really see that as an issue 22M is what half an hour to an hour of missioning or ratting if that?
I say if new players want to start with learnigns then they can sacrifice other starting skills its all good that way.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.03 22:18:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Resamo
Originally by: Malcanis
the only problem is that it's giving a starting player 22M ISk worth of skillbooks.
I dont really see that as an issue 22M is what half an hour to an hour of missioning or ratting if that?
I say if new players want to start with learnigns then they can sacrifice other starting skills its all good that way.
If new players are making 44M an hour missioning then I'm rerolling...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Resamo
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Posted - 2008.06.04 00:38:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Resamo
Originally by: Malcanis
the only problem is that it's giving a starting player 22M ISk worth of skillbooks.
I dont really see that as an issue 22M is what half an hour to an hour of missioning or ratting if that?
I say if new players want to start with learnigns then they can sacrifice other starting skills its all good that way.
If new players are making 44M an hour missioning then I'm rerolling...
For me thats how much i make so the 20M i lost out in skill books i had to purchase i could care less about... dont be an ass its not constructive.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.04 07:06:00 -
[66]
I'm not just being as ass. 22M is actually quite a lot of ISK for a starting player. Maybe not for someone with a T2-fit mission raven, but for someone shooting hi-sec belt-rats in a Condor, it's a heck of a lot.
Apart from anything else, assuming that this isn't just sterile ****ery, and it's an idea that's actually going to be put forward, it's an objection that's going to be met and will have to be answered.
Just saying "LOL in six months it won't make any difference" won't cut it - that's an equally good justification for not bothering with the new character option in the first place.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Imaos
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:17:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Malcanis
I'm not just being as ass. 22M is actually quite a lot of ISK for a starting player. Maybe not for someone with a T2-fit mission raven, but for someone shooting hi-sec belt-rats in a Condor, it's a heck of a lot.
Apart from anything else, assuming that this isn't just sterile ****ery, and it's an idea that's actually going to be put forward, it's an objection that's going to be met and will have to be answered.
Just saying "LOL in six months it won't make any difference" won't cut it - that's an equally good justification for not bothering with the new character option in the first place.
Would you be happy if you get starting capital on top of that to balance the price of all the skillbooks the character has prelearned?
Imaos
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Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:41:00 -
[68]
Nope.
People like me worked their asses off for those skillbooks, and knowing that newer people can just get it for free doesn't appease me.
Typical example of 'more more more', why I also don't want the skill queue: Aren't you happy enough with your 800k skillpoints?
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Kusha'an
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:22:00 -
[69]
Originally by: chichi boom
I think that the learning skills have their place. They give the option of fun stuff right now or more stuff later on. Personally, I have found my learning skill balance by making a skill plan in evemon for something rediculous and not having any learning skills suggested. If I cant shave a few hours off of a 300+ day skill plan, I dont need it. Also, if you think there is a need for a guide that doesnt suggest getting learning skills up, then get a few friends together and make a new one 
THIS.
I take this approach as well. I spent more time accumulating isk in the early days and was able to buy +4 implants pretty early on. I don't train as fast as some, but I train fast enough that I don't get discouraged.
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What part of "shorn't" do you not understand? |
Criid Tona
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:56:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Criid Tona on 04/06/2008 17:58:22
Edited by: Criid Tona on 04/06/2008 17:57:04
A little off to the side, but I've been thinking about this and to make attributes like Charisma mean a little more and to have them all play a bigger role then just training time, plus the way the learning skills work.
How about if CCP changed skills to have a requirement of a minimum attribute to train. That would give the advanced learning skills a much larger impact then just being an extra timesink just to not waste time in future training. This would also make attributes a bigger consideration in character creation, if you want to do everything you have to be balanced, if you want leadership skills you can't gimp your charisma.
Fairly easy change and if the older players already have a skill and have put in the time training it then they have the skill regardless of their attributes. It would be a requirement to begin training, not to keep the skill, so losing attribute points due to implant loss wouldn't mean you can't use the skill.
So this wouldn't affect older characters, it would just make things more interesting for new characters and give the advanced learning skills, and attributes as a whole, a larger role to fill without breaking anything already in place.
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Isaac Starstriker
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Posted - 2008.06.05 06:43:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 05/06/2008 06:44:22
I'm a new player to this game of about 5 months ish. Still, this game is all about patience. Which I have in abundance. Though I can get a tad whiny waiting for my blasted-awesome-so-very-cool-uber-pwning Battleship, I can chill with the corp, go mining for a bit, do missions or do 0.0 ratting in my BC. Sure, this game has a tiny problem with PVP. What MMO doesn't??? World of Warcraft can't figure out how to balance its classes and your totally gear dependent there, this takes time. Eve takes time to get uber-pwning ships and even then there is no guarantee. But then again, there shouldn't be any guarantee with PVP. If you knew you were going to win/lose, what the hell is the point?
Good thing about this game is that I can do quite a few things. Can I do them effectively? No. But thats why the game has DEPTH. LIVE WITH IT OR LEAVE WE DON'T CARE.
The GREAT thing about this game is that noobs like you stop playing it so I can play with ppl who are SERIOUS about playing and hanging out and won't leave the corp within an hour because the corp "won't gear them". I don't have to listen to the 10 year olds like I did in wow. I don't have to listen to guild drama every night and EVERYONE helps out EVERYONE. This is not the dog-eat-dog game that Wow or Everquest or etc is. If you want INSTANT GRATIFICATION, go to Blizzard, I hear they cater to whiny noob locks/mages who say they can't pwn enough.
Leave Eve Online alone just because you can't pwn things within 3 months of playing. Cry elsewhere. This is EVE ONLINE, NOT WORLD OF WARCRAFT. "WHAAAAAAA". Sheesh.
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Blazing Fire
Interstellar Operations Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:46:00 -
[72]
Having to train those Learning skills on all of my chars, kind of bored me to death at the begining.
But i think that after one figure out that they are important if you plan to play EVE, he just waits for them to train up. Kind of build up the character.
I agree that it may discourage some of the new players, but to be honest this is what keep the only the valuable and mature players stay. EVE is proly the MMO game with the most mature player base. It is up to everyone to decide on their own if this is good or bad.
Blazing Fire
CEO
Interstellar Operations Incorporated
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Caiman Graystock
Quantum of Solace
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Posted - 2008.06.05 14:31:00 -
[73]
Learning skills are the MOST useful skills in the game. They work 24 HOURS A DAY, whether you are playing or not, unlike any other skill. Most skills are only useful while you are in a certain ship, or using a certain weapon type, or sitting in a station. Learning skills speed up every other skill you train, I don't understand the hate for them at all. It's not as if you cannot training anything else without learning skills as a new player, it's not as if they stop you getting a ship, or using weapons. They are an added bonus to increase the speed you learn other skills at and do nothing but pay off as time goes by.
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AKULA UrQuan
Druuge Crimson Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.05 20:27:00 -
[74]
Because I could and had time to kill. I took my CEO alt who hasn't trained a single skill since creation and loaded her into evemon. I then went and made a skill plan for her to fly a Crow fairly well. I picked the crow because it's normaly the first T2 ship most caldari combat pilots go for. Nothing overly fancy with the plan but it will leave her able to preform better with the crow than the avrage nub who rushes for it. Once the plan was done I then allowed Eve-mon to pick the required learning skills to speed things along. Here's the result.
Quote:
Skill plan for Niko Sayla
1. Instant Recall I (13 minutes, 36 seconds)
2. Instant Recall II (1 hour, 6 seconds)
3. Learning II (57 minutes, 6 seconds)
4. Instant Recall III (5 hours, 16 minutes, 35 seconds)
5. Learning III (5 hours, 1 minute, 30 seconds)
6. Logic I (33 minutes, 41 seconds)
7. Logic II (2 hours, 29 minutes, 47 seconds)
8. Logic III (13 hours, 30 minutes, 22 seconds)
9. Learning IV (1 day, 2 hours, 2 minutes, 3 seconds)
10. Spatial Awareness I (10 minutes, 17 seconds)
11. Iron Will I (10 minutes, 17 seconds)
12. Spatial Awareness II (47 minutes, 56 seconds)
13. Iron Will II (47 minutes, 56 seconds)
14. Spatial Awareness III (4 hours, 30 minutes, 59 seconds)
15. Iron Will III (4 hours, 30 minutes, 59 seconds)
16. Spatial Awareness IV (1 day, 1 hour, 33 minutes, 7 seconds)
17. Iron Will IV (1 day, 1 hour, 33 minutes, 7 seconds)
18. Focus I (49 minutes, 36 seconds)
19. Clarity I (49 minutes, 36 seconds)
20. Focus II (3 hours, 35 minutes, 37 seconds)
21. Clarity II (3 hours, 28 minutes, 39 seconds)
22. Focus III (19 hours, 3 minutes, 20 seconds)
23. Clarity III (17 hours, 56 minutes, 5 seconds)
Total time: 6 days, 18 hours, 52 minutes, 27 seconds
You don't need to spend 4-6 weeks mindlessly training learning skills. I'm 2.5 years old ingame and I just finished training the last learning skill I might need (Presense III) lastnight. Train the learning skills as you need them and learn to love evemon.
Also ingore the fools that say, "Train all learning skills first nub!". It's bad advice.
Here's good advice. Train cybernetics to level 1 soon as possible. Implants are dirt cheap these days and even +1s will make a real impact on training times early on in life.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.05 21:23:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Malcanis
I'm not just being as ass. 22M is actually quite a lot of ISK for a starting player. Maybe not for someone with a T2-fit mission raven, but for someone shooting hi-sec belt-rats in a Condor, it's a heck of a lot.
Apart from anything else, assuming that this isn't just sterile ****ery, and it's an idea that's actually going to be put forward, it's an objection that's going to be met and will have to be answered.
Just saying "LOL in six months it won't make any difference" won't cut it - that's an equally good justification for not bothering with the new character option in the first place.
Would you be happy if you get starting capital on top of that to balance the price of all the skillbooks the character has prelearned?
Imaos
*shrug*
It's not my suggestion. I'm just anticipating a possible objection.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Agazoth V
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Posted - 2008.06.05 22:18:00 -
[76]
I liked getting my learning done fairly early. It was kinda a pat on the back when I was 5 base and 4 advanced. I rolled a combat toon so only had to train a short T2 AC and Propulsion Jamming III build. Pure stat progression and realtime skills is why I enjoy this game.
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Nafordes
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Posted - 2008.06.05 22:26:00 -
[77]
a big plus on wether you should train learning skills first is ur base memory and intelligence if u have 10+base memory then go for lvl5 basic learnings, if u have like 4-5 memory i really wouldnt bother, you might as well use the 15 days you lose in comparison to high memory and train it in cybernetics and plug in +5's (if u can afford it offcourse).
also if ur new to this game I would train basic to 4 and advanced to 3, that really doesnt take much time and you can decide over time if u want to keep on playing the game for a long time or not.
And evemon is great but if u use seperate plans for each shiptype then it might give u a wrong view on wether you should train learning skillz to what level 
ps: sorry for bad english but i try to improve it :)
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Jon D'Agrvainio
Griefer-B-Gone
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Posted - 2008.06.06 05:06:00 -
[78]
Mr. Error404, what you just wrote was one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent topic post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is dumber for having read it.
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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The Tzar
Malicious Intentions
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:45:00 -
[79]
Out of all the changes that CCP make the learning and skill tree should remain the same.
Why should someone who has only just come into the game get more advantages than an older player?
EVERYONE HAD TO GO THROUGH WHAT THE NOOBS DO!!!
If you don't want to or aren't willing, you have found the wrong game.
Shock horror, IT'S A MULTIPLAYER! If you can't beat someone in PvP in your first month 1v1 this doesn't qualify you for a freebie.
Are you the type of person that lies in bed all day, languishing under the duvee, forever indulging in the pleasures of the palm whilst receiving benefits?
Then yes of course you would want another handout..., quite understandable.
This type of person is not self helper and quite frankly does not belong in EvE.
It's cold, it's harsh, there are many players much much higher SP than me and thats the way I want it.
__________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound.
This is why some people appear intelligent
until they speak'
__________________________________________ |
Kusha'an
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:40:00 -
[80]
Originally by: The Tzar
Why should someone who has only just come into the game get more advantages than an older player?
Um...are you yet another person who fails to realize that older players would also benefit from a skill queue, just as you benefited from the overview and repeating guns?
I guess you had a cow when CCP increased the starting skill point base for new players too, eh?
And what's with the sexual comments? Extremely immature and lame joke, not even funny.
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What part of "shorn't" do you not understand? |
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Leesha Inoue
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Posted - 2008.06.06 23:34:00 -
[81]
No one should touch learning skills. People put time into trainig them, and you reap the rewards for faster training times after. Thats the whole point. They're optional!! Like ALL skills. Yes, if you dont train them you'll train slow.
To the haters:
Go and whine somewhere else tbh, or don't play..... idiots
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Vanessa Vasquez
planet eyeQ
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Posted - 2008.06.07 12:18:00 -
[82]
Did i mention that i would be pleased if every new player starts with all basic learning skills at 3/4? Yes, on top of their 800k starting SP.
Isn't that glorious? 
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Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2008.06.07 16:37:00 -
[83]
Just because people tell you to train learning skills doesn't mean you have to do it.
I'd be happy enough if they were scrapped though, I'll take my 20m sp across 5 chars and save a few months of skill switching.
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Black Leather
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Posted - 2008.06.07 16:52:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Black Leather on 07/06/2008 16:53:07
Learning skills are a time sink.
No more. No less.
It's how MMOs make their money.
If everything happened quickly, subs would last months instead of years.
Don't like it, don't play MMOs.
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Michele Pfeiffer
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Posted - 2008.06.07 21:46:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez
Did i mention that i would be pleased if every new player starts with all basic learning skills at 3/4? Yes, on top of their 800k starting SP.
Isn't that glorious?
haha! All basic learning to 3 are like 14 hours or what? If you would really be so generous, you would go for giving them 2 of those 4.5 million skills up to lvl 3 or 4!
My vote for that. Newbs should start with something like 2m SP
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Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.07 22:40:00 -
[86]
They already caved in to giving newbies 800k. Stop wanting more more more, CCP doesn't care if they lose out on fifteen bucks a month.
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Michele Pfeiffer
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Posted - 2008.06.08 00:59:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
They already caved in to giving newbies 800k. Stop wanting more more more, CCP doesn't care if they lose out on fifteen bucks a month.
Oh come on Grarr. You can't be that short sighted. Who cares if they got 2m instead of 0.8? It wouldn't change a thing, except that more new people would play eve. I do have friends, who refused to stay in eve cause of the massive SP difference to older players. Ok, it's only one guy actually. He used to play DAOC, and he was not very pleased by the fact that he will never stand a chance here. Anyways, I doubt that a single one of the elite players will quit cause he would have only 28m SP advance instead of 30m 
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Jagre Hett
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Posted - 2008.06.08 01:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Michele Pfeiffer
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
They already caved in to giving newbies 800k. Stop wanting more more more, CCP doesn't care if they lose out on fifteen bucks a month.
Oh come on Grarr. You can't be that short sighted. Who cares if they got 2m instead of 0.8? It wouldn't change a thing, except that more new people would play eve. I do have friends, who refused to stay in eve cause of the massive SP difference to older players. Ok, it's only one guy actually. He used to play DAOC, and he was not very pleased by the fact that he will never stand a chance here. Anyways, I doubt that a single one of the elite players will quit cause he would have only 28m SP advance instead of 30m
I'm still new yet I realize you don't need to match sp numbers with people to be able to compete. New people can just specialize ina n area and then match up with those vets since their additional sp is just spread into cross training.
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Michele Pfeiffer
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Posted - 2008.06.08 01:29:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Jagre Hett
I'm still new yet I realize you don't need to match sp numbers with people to be able to compete. New people can just specialize ina n area and then match up with those vets since their additional sp is just spread into cross training.
True. But why not just give them MORE?
Seriously, with 2m starting SP they still will have to specialize to match. A little bit MORE from the begining would just increase their options. Just in case they don't like interceptor after they have trained it. 
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Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.08 02:13:00 -
[90]
Nope. Not gonna happen. They already have it too easy with 800k, no need to make it even easier. Remember the 'learning curve of MMO's' picture? We like to keep it so, helps weed out 99% of the ******s.
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