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Corp 5py
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.03.12 09:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I had one of my alts train up trading/hauling and got into a bit of market supply-and-demand game For the initial 'testing of the waters' I only put in a starting capital of about a bil and consisted in buying jita items and reselling at +10-15% markup in and around various strategic systems.
2-ish weeks later ~95% the items stock was sold out, and the profit was about 110 mils for a bil invested.
Now this exercise took me about 3-4 hours, mainly due to item selection (100-ish different items made it in the final selection out of a possible 300-ish) and the recording jita prices and the markup on ye olde excel spreadsheet. On top of this hundreds and hundreds of clicks to investigate the market price, buy and resell ... uuuh...
Now if I were to increase the invested capital I'd expect to have ever increasing work loads with keeping records, various regions would have various needs, local traders would cover various more lucrative items... etc.
In the above exercise I could say I made 100 mils in 3 hours ... time in which I could run some Highsec incursions to make 2x- 3x the amount at a lower effort.
When does it begin to pay off ... ? Is the way 'forward' isk/effort wise to deal in high cost items sold in bulk in Jita and only adjust/undercut 10-20 item stacks that are worth several bilions a few times/day ? |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
317
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Posted - 2012.03.12 10:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
if you need to more work than shooting red crosses your doing something wrong ether wrong product wrong market or not enough alts CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thing is, you can invest significantly more than a billion, and make a similar percentage, the the same time. For a similar investment of time.
Trading /scales/. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
89
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Corp 5py wrote:So I had one of my alts train up trading/hauling and got into a bit of market supply-and-demand game For the initial 'testing of the waters' I only put in a starting capital of about a bil and consisted in buying jita items and reselling at +10-15% markup in and around various strategic systems.
2-ish weeks later ~95% the items stock was sold out, and the profit was about 110 mils for a bil invested.
Now this exercise took me about 3-4 hours, mainly due to item selection (100-ish different items made it in the final selection out of a possible 300-ish) and the recording jita prices and the markup on ye olde excel spreadsheet. On top of this hundreds and hundreds of clicks to investigate the market price, buy and resell ... uuuh...
Now if I were to increase the invested capital I'd expect to have ever increasing work loads with keeping records, various regions would have various needs, local traders would cover various more lucrative items... etc.
In the above exercise I could say I made 100 mils in 3 hours ... time in which I could run some Highsec incursions to make 2x- 3x the amount at a lower effort.
When does it begin to pay off ... ? Is the way 'forward' isk/effort wise to deal in high cost items sold in bulk in Jita and only adjust/undercut 10-20 item stacks that are worth several bilions a few times/day ?
Your doing it wrong. the whole point of what your doing, and I have a very good idea of exactly what it is that you are doing, is to gain influence on the market prices.
2 words Market manipulation
that and "What your doing" is the right way, my competitor =)
P.S. If I did it your way and only your way, I would gross, 1-2 bil per month with 300 orders, 25 bil and 3-4 hours with Mentat, per month. But in reality I gross about 6-12 bil per month with the same time investment.
the daily tipoff is "Zydrine" |
Ozzie Asrail
Exploited
3
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Posted - 2012.03.12 12:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Your missing the point that gradually you build up a portfolio of products that you like to trade, you get to know the various items you trade in more often.
It's not like spend 3 hours upfront researching then wait till your products buy/sell out then start from scratch again. Instead you are constantly refreshing the "winners" and researching a few more products, any that don't sell well are dropped.
After a couple of weeks you'll find you're not spending much more time but you've got 10x as much invested and making 10x as much profit. |
Corp 5py
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.03.12 12:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hmmm...
I see where this is going...now if I only increase the invested capital as to be 'resistant' to fly-by speculative trading and build up a varied stock of items on the market that are to sell over a longer period of time (say 1-2-3 months).
... and repeat that over several regions as to not over-saturate any given market ... in a few months/ to 1-2 years I could end up rolling several hundred bil isk/month ... and at 5-15% markup over jita that will eventually make a profit of 10-50 bil isk/month.
that, and place lots of buy orders in various regions for some items, make courier contracts to have them shipped to a central location and other contracts to have them shipped to various regional markets to be put on sale at x% markup
I can see this becoming quite a full time occupation
Must train more alts :( |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
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Posted - 2012.03.12 12:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Corp 5py wrote:Hmmm...
I see where this is going...now if I only increase the invested capital as to be 'resistant' to fly-by speculative trading and build up a varied stock of items on the market that are to sell over a longer period of time (say 1-2-3 months).
... and repeat that over several regions as to not over-saturate any given market ... in a few months/ to 1-2 years I could end up rolling several hundred bil isk/month ... and at 5-15% markup over jita that will eventually make a profit of 10-50 bil isk/month.
that, and place lots of buy orders in various regions for some items, make courier contracts to have them shipped to a central location and other contracts to have them shipped to various regional markets to be put on sale at x% markup
I can see this becoming quite a full time occupation
Must train more alts :(
Exactly. It's all about scale.
It's also riskier in pure isk terms, when you get to that kind of scale. Misjudge the market and you could lose billions. Though if you have the bankroll for it, you can ride out market dips, as long as they're not inherent ones (e.g. a new source for something opens up, dropping the price. A new module is released, killing the demand for what you've got stocked.. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
67
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ozzie Asrail wrote:Your missing the point that gradually you build up a portfolio of products that you like to trade, you get to know the various items you trade in more often.
It's not like spend 3 hours upfront researching then wait till your products buy/sell out then start from scratch again. Instead you are constantly refreshing the "winners" and researching a few more products, any that don't sell well are dropped.
After a couple of weeks you'll find you're not spending much more time but you've got 10x as much invested and making 10x as much profit.
This is pretty nearly how I would put it, although my experience wasn't that you had 10x as much after a couple weeks.
Even spending lots of time, it took me longer to find the winners and most of the stuff didn't scale in a way where I could suddenly do much more of the same.
BUT, even if it were only 2 as much a month later, that is quite a growth rate.
ALSO
don't forget to HAVE FUN ! .... what sort of minor OCD type repetitive behaviour is fun for one is often a slightly different flavor for another.
RE the manipulation: not only is it often profitable but it can be very fun. I don't think it is that easy until you have enough capital so that you can be indifferent to how quickly something sellss those times it doesn't work right away. Bailing out would be very costly in many of the markets that have thin enough supplies to make an impact with what capital you have.
RE market influence... I found it really fun to begin to dominate the trade (both buying and selling) in a non hub region. Playing with mutiple clients that was time consuming in one sense yet not terribly so if my main activity were being in a pvp fleet with all the waiting inherent and the moving and price updates could be done while I was "hury up and waiting" on my pvp character.
RE train more alts I disagree with this pretence....while a second account (and eventually a third, less certain about the 4rth and 5th i hade in terms of increased time efficiency) is a major boost when it means you can dual client as I described, I found that very lowly skilled traders (10 days or less even.. needed daytrading for some types.. 2 days could work some places) could be quite profitable. My jita trader is of course very highly skilled AND equally importantly, has high Caldari Navy and Caldari faction standing (gaining faction standing does take a LOT of time played unless you can party with some guy that likes to run missions 12 hours at a time and stay logged in in system with him).
That being said, the very profitable trading opportunities that you could just log in once a week to that you haven't been undercut and restock once a month were usually such high margins that losing 30 million a month on 1 billion in sales (with likely a 600 million profit) really wasn't a meaningful impact unless you had far less capital than you had opportunities and human time to exploit.
IRR (internal rate of return) calculations are fairly meaningless in this game because your human time factor in trading is so often the limiting factor, not your lack of capital. At the cusp, yes it might add a few weeks to a flat out rush to 50 billion isk, but most people are going to find that the time Your describe of discovering markets comes in little spurts and that you'll often have more capital than you've taken time to find ideas for.
Also, as you get richer, one of the surest ways of increasing your Isk/hour rate of return is to deliberately sacrifice IRR by bringing 2 months of inventory to sell instead of 2 weeks worth .... much higher rate of return for the 2 week cycle but 4 times the work associated with shipping and often lost sales due to low inventory more frequently.
I think that with 2 accounts, 5 characters trained two days to get 45 orders (and many can make due with only 9 in all honesty...depending what you're selling or buying) and 1 highly trained dedicated trader, you'd have all the tools to focus your time well. Having a 3rd account helped most for me to get a freighter/orca pilot trained who could be delivering stuff while trading on the main trading account and not needing to worry where i left him when i logged out to manage his own orders. Having your jita window open at the same time as a trader who you're using in a different hub or mini hub you've established makes it easier to restock without jotting down what you need too. |
Tehg Rhind
Atlantic Innovations
4
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Posted - 2012.03.12 16:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
There's another very important difference between trading and ratting etc when it comes to return on effort, and that is granularity. When you run an incursion or a mission or whatever there is a minimum time commitment. You must spend 30 minutes or whatever to get a return. With trading you can spend 30 minutes or 5 seconds and still achieve some amount of return. The only other professions that allow this are industry or mining, and even then it's not as granular. |
Greg Valanti
Looney Clones
15
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Posted - 2012.03.12 17:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
15% markup is not worth the time if you're looking to make real returns. I can set buy orders and make better than that without the product leaving the station in most places. If I am transporting something I am selling it anywhere from 200%-35,000+% (yes really) more than what I paid. On many modules I deal in, 1 sale is covering the entire purchase cost of the whole order
As Diomedes mentioned, it helps to trade in bulk to save yourself frequent deliveries. There is another benefit to this as when you have a buy order in bulk you will occasionally benefit from picking up either a large quantity cheap and fast from someone dumping a bulk stockpile, or, in rare cases, someone placing a bulk sell order and screwing up (say, forgetting a zero at the end of their sell price) netting you a large chunk of inventory for next to nothing that you otherwise would never have gotten. To elaborate - you now have for example qty 100 of something for 10% its price as opposed to qty 10 filling your order then the next buy order picking up the other 90 (Big thanks to whoever accidentally sold me 15 T2 ships for 30k/ea last week). |
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
89
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Posted - 2012.03.12 17:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
To many alts will be a fulltime job.
1 main and 3 backup are really the most one can have and really enjoy trading without getting to far involved, then inevitably trolled by some one new, more agile and of course isk hungry.
Influence, may possibly be the strongest weapon one has in the manipulation game, never underestimate it.
I remember one particular manipulation attempt, on PI goods. A friend of mines had about 6000 of something that was selling for 700K a pop, so I thought... hmm let me buy all this stuff out in amarr and just post it up for 5M a piece, boy, when 1700 pieces sold all throughout the day, I thought, hell let me head on over to jita and roll the same dice, the prices finally settled at 2m a piece and I moved something like 70K pieces for an average profit of 2.2m a piece. other merchants started getting on board and it was like a huge title wave, some where contacting me to keep pushing =)
See, That was fun!
Im telling you, this (manipulation) can be allot of fun, its a whole new world. |
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