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An Anarchyyt
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.18 21:47:00 -
[31]
Originally by: sahalie like this eh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04
Damn you I was gonna post that!
Now instead I'm just going to laugh at that guy who used "Simulator" and "WoW" in the same sentence.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Neth'Rae
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 21:50:00 -
[32]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: sahalie like this eh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04
Damn you I was gonna post that!
Now instead I'm just going to laugh at that guy who used "Simulator" and "WoW" in the same sentence.
Now you did it aswell, *lolz*
Request signatures at EVE-GFX |
Shira Elan
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Posted - 2008.06.18 21:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Typically FCs in EVE need to maintain a very cool head because unlike in WoW, you have to deal with the human element. You're fighting against players -- not computers -- and the random element is increased exponentially.
Oh look they primaried the falcon, how surprising!? That was really random of them. Oh look, they run when our blob is larger, and engage when their blob is larger...etc.
Originally by: Tippia ąpossibly because you need a modicum of intellectual prowess to play ≡v≡, and that trait tends to coincide with a slightly more mellow attitude
F1-F8 really requires lots of skill and intellectual prowess . Seriously, the "strategy" component of EVE isn't anywhere near something like chess, and there's no twitch element (as compared to WoW, which has tons of twitch).
Originally by: Winterblink Edited by: Winterblink on 18/06/2008 19:57:38
FCs in eve have to deal with much more than just their immediate grid. Overall fleet composition and position changes all the time and can encompass several systems. Intel comes from all angles. It's a much more complex beast.
1) Is there an opposing fleet in an nearby system? a) If no, carry on b) If yes, see (2) 2) Is the opposing fleet bigger? a) If no, carry on b) If yes, fall back
Originally by: Straight Chillen Whereas in EVE, you know that with every ship destroyed your causing some one a loss. Also if you die in WoW big woop, just go get your corpse, In EVE you lose your ship and your **** outta luck. The greatest FC's understand this and show appreciation for your efforts.
You'll have to really dig into that multi-billion ISK wallet of yours to replace the battleship you lost... Depending on repair costs, in WoW it could actually take MORE time to farm the gold to pay for the repair than it would to farm the isk for a new ship in EVE.
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Kleitos
U-208 Blade.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 21:56:00 -
[34]
After 4 years of WoW (yea yea, I know), I can definitely say that the reason that you have to yell as a RL in WoW is because your raids are full of idiots. 85% of your raid has downs, the other 15% are the ones that carry the raid, you just have to keep the drooling ******s out of the fire until the fight is over, and yelling seems to get their attention.
EvE on the other hand, doesn't seem to have that problem, which is why I'm over here now.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.18 22:03:00 -
[35]
There's a massive difference between a good FC and a bad one. The active fight in EVE is also very heavily a matter of morale - if an FC sounds like he's an idiot, or doesn't know what he's doing, morale will fade, and the gang is less effective.
Appreciation of a dynamic and evolving environment is also extremely relevant - in EVE, you never know what it is you'll be fighting much in advance. Nor do you necessarily know who's one system over. Being cool and calm is helpful there, too for picking up and adapting to situations. Or at least giving a good impression of it, such that your fleet doesn't panic. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.18 22:15:00 -
[36]
As mentioned above, since EVE is a much more mature game, alot of FC's (and people in the gang) also have military experience, making comms a bit more relaxed and calm.
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Apoctasy
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.06.19 04:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Patch86 FCing is to Raid-leading what playing a piano concerto is to vomiting out of a window.
Holy **** you win
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.19 04:11:00 -
[38]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 19/06/2008 04:11:50
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker die
I personally FC eve with a level head I don't want to get my fleet killed and honestly eve isn't as simple as wow PvP :P
but don't tell a wow PvPers that lol.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.06.19 05:08:00 -
[39]
I think the biggest difference between EVE and WoW group operations (fleet/raid/whatever) is that in WoW, you're limited to picking exactly 10 or 25 people. If one of those people underperforms, you either replace them or you're just pain out of luck. In EVE if one of your folks is underperforming, you just add another person to your fleet.
In WoW, if you have 25 people brining hunters along, you're SOL. In EVE, you just get a few of the cruiser pilots to swap ships/fittings so they can be tacklers or healers. No problem.
And finally, in EVE you can just add one more ship. You aren't forced to decide between the guy you know is a good healer versus the girl who sounds like your best friend's (hot) mother but couldn't heal her way out of a pillow fight. You can take both!
Less stress on leaders = less yelling and screaming to relieve the tension, and more confidence to give orders and have them followed (by someone... anyone...)
(and from what I've seen, EVE players are older, so we're past the time when friends' mothers are "hot"... "Agnes, you forgot your teeth, darling. Yes that's right, over here in what used to be my Earl Grey. Have fun at shuffleboard!")
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Axel Yulaw
Unseen Eye of Talos
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Posted - 2008.06.19 05:33:00 -
[40]
I enjoyed this post muchly!
Unseen Eye of Talos . Recruiting |
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Terror Rising
Death Of Fallen Angels
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Posted - 2008.06.19 07:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Shira Elan WOW Stroke-age
You really love WOW don't you ...
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.19 07:49:00 -
[42]
Quote: and there's no twitch element (as compared to WoW, which has tons of twitch).
just LAWL
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2008.06.19 08:08:00 -
[43]
In my opinion it's the same story as with dogs: the ones that bark (shout around the place all the time) are usually the ones that don't feel secure enough in their role as FC and have to keep stroking their epeen by showing everyone just how loud they can shout.
The ones that stay nice and calm and keep a cool head are usually the way better FCs and will usually also have way more success because they don't bring this massive unrest into the gang by being aggressive as hell.
But don't get me wrong: sometimes an FC also has to raise his voice a bit and tell people off if they're being disturbing but generally the FCs I've flown under were either loud and mediocre or calm/cool and good at FCing.
Maybe I was just lucky/unlucky though.
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The Wounded
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.06.19 08:09:00 -
[44]
thats like comparing the captain of a rugby team with the captain of a curling team. Eve requires brains and tactics, [BEEP] requires button bashers
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Waagaa Ktlehr
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 08:26:00 -
[45]
Done both and I think leading a raid in WoW is generally more demanding than FCing in EVE. A good raid leader in WoW needs to delegate a lot or know all the classes in the game inside out. There is of course three different roles, but normally using the specific strengths of each class makes the difference between a kill and another wipe.
In EVE, you are fighting against a human opponent, which does make things more interesting from an intel and tactics side, but generally the roles in a fleet are less complex and instructions are easier.
And no, not all WoW raid leaders yell like that idiot that everyone knows from MOAR DOTS! :) -
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Karma
Eve University
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Posted - 2008.06.19 08:58:00 -
[46]
Which tastes the nastiest, apples or oranges?
as an FC in EVE you have to have a LOT more knowledge about the game you're playing... as a raid leader in WOW, you have to herd people who couldn't even finish the EVE Tutorial without extensive help.
if an EVE corp switched games and started playing wow instead.. I imagine they could probably sweep the floor with the rest of the server-population in terms of progression...
but as it is now... you can't compare them realistically.
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Jaketh Ivanes
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.06.19 10:09:00 -
[47]
I see a lot of self glorification and bashing, which makes EvE players look like arrogant hats.
WoW requires a lot of tactics and strategy on the big raids. Also requires a lot of preparation to do the raids in first try (unless you are with the experienced bunch). But when you know the boss, he is always predictable, no need to change your tactic.
EvE requires a lot of adaption, you have to be able to ready your opponent, figure out his setup and then find a way to counter it. You have to do that in small 1 vs 1 and in large fleet fights (well, not so much, as everyone are sniping).
They are 2 very different games and both excel in their own way. I like both.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.06.19 10:14:00 -
[48]
WOW raids are known in detail, what to do, when to do it and what happens next. EVE is more about tactics, there's more information going back and forth and situations are fluid. Both things take a different approach but I do feel that being an EVE FC is more demanding than being a raid leader in WOW, mainly due to the amount of people involved and the fact that you play against other people so you HAVE to be able to improvise.
Apart from that there's much more on the line in EVE, both winnign and losing means something here.
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Aleksandr Marc
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Posted - 2008.06.19 10:35:00 -
[49]
Well raiding in WoW aside, to be successful in the arena pvp actually did require a large amount of competence, and above all communication. Not ALL WoW players are the arrogant, ganking kiddies that camped redridge.
I speak as someone who has a few years of experience playing WoW and being both on high tiered (2200+ rated) arena team as well as having raiding the top tiered PvE instances.
That being said, people do in general tend to be much more laid back in Eve. Although I must say...I've come across some very angry miners in my couple months of yarring about.
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Tippia
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.19 10:38:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I see a lot of self glorification and bashing, which makes EvE players look like arrogant hats.
Well, hey! Arrogance is still arrogance, even when it's entirely justified, so I'm comfortable with this description.
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Shakari Sween
Space Oddysey Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.19 10:42:00 -
[51]
Alot of the raid leaders I've had in wow have been very very calm. The more progresive a guild is in wow generaly means a calmer raid leader. Of course the raids I did were pretty high content wise, so we didnt really have any one to yell at or complain about...
From my experiance wow raid leaders and eve f/cs are similar. But this is just from my experance. I would think that just like wow if your f/c did yell and abuse you etc that you would stop going with them, as we all play for 'fun', not to be abused after every jump. |
Karma
Eve University
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Posted - 2008.06.19 10:51:00 -
[52]
the first guild that encounters a boss *they* require a lot of thinking, and they require tactics to cope with the unknowns... they don't know what the boss will do, if he has an enrage-timer, if he spawns adds, if he has a special attack that wipes half the raid and if there's anything you could do about it if he does... they have to be creative.
anyone who goes after that boss afterwards will know exactly what the boss does... and what they should do to survive. no unknowns. no creative thinking. it just becomes a matter of 'have everyone read the strategy for this guy? okey, let's roll!' ... and the poor sod who didn't read the strategy ends up dead in ten seconds.
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Nguyen VanPhuoc
The Halibuts
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Posted - 2008.06.19 11:29:00 -
[53]
onion and tomato
discuss ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
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Zinras
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.19 11:38:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I see a lot of self glorification and bashing, which makes EvE players look like arrogant hats.
Welcome to the forums! Also, you'll see this kind of thing in all other MMO forums as well.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale *moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
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sg3s
O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.19 12:17:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Shira Elan
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Typically FCs in EVE need to maintain a very cool head because unlike in WoW, you have to deal with the human element. You're fighting against players -- not computers -- and the random element is increased exponentially.
Oh look they primaried the falcon, how surprising!? That was really random of them. Oh look, they run when our blob is larger, and engage when their blob is larger...etc.
Originally by: Tippia …possibly because you need a modicum of intellectual prowess to play ≡v≡, and that trait tends to coincide with a slightly more mellow attitude
F1-F8 really requires lots of skill and intellectual prowess . Seriously, the "strategy" component of EVE isn't anywhere near something like chess, and there's no twitch element (as compared to WoW, which has tons of twitch).
Originally by: Winterblink Edited by: Winterblink on 18/06/2008 19:57:38
FCs in eve have to deal with much more than just their immediate grid. Overall fleet composition and position changes all the time and can encompass several systems. Intel comes from all angles. It's a much more complex beast.
1) Is there an opposing fleet in an nearby system? a) If no, carry on b) If yes, see (2) 2) Is the opposing fleet bigger? a) If no, carry on b) If yes, fall back
Originally by: Straight Chillen Whereas in EVE, you know that with every ship destroyed your causing some one a loss. Also if you die in WoW big woop, just go get your corpse, In EVE you lose your ship and your **** outta luck. The greatest FC's understand this and show appreciation for your efforts.
You'll have to really dig into that multi-billion ISK wallet of yours to replace the battleship you lost... Depending on repair costs, in WoW it could actually take MORE time to farm the gold to pay for the repair than it would to farm the isk for a new ship in EVE.
Although there is a taint of truth in here, you obviously have not experienced a good FC, or good pvp. And it's getting rarer with the day but there are still fights where the smaller blob wins, mostly due to the expertise which the FC brings.
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Jayna Keria
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.19 23:40:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Shira Elan
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Typically FCs in EVE need to maintain a very cool head because unlike in WoW, you have to deal with the human element. You're fighting against players -- not computers -- and the random element is increased exponentially.
Oh look they primaried the falcon, how surprising!? That was really random of them. Oh look, they run when our blob is larger, and engage when their blob is larger...etc.
Originally by: Tippia ąpossibly because you need a modicum of intellectual prowess to play ≡v≡, and that trait tends to coincide with a slightly more mellow attitude
F1-F8 really requires lots of skill and intellectual prowess . Seriously, the "strategy" component of EVE isn't anywhere near something like chess, and there's no twitch element (as compared to WoW, which has tons of twitch).
Originally by: Winterblink Edited by: Winterblink on 18/06/2008 19:57:38
FCs in eve have to deal with much more than just their immediate grid. Overall fleet composition and position changes all the time and can encompass several systems. Intel comes from all angles. It's a much more complex beast.
1) Is there an opposing fleet in an nearby system? a) If no, carry on b) If yes, see (2) 2) Is the opposing fleet bigger? a) If no, carry on b) If yes, fall back
Originally by: Straight Chillen Whereas in EVE, you know that with every ship destroyed your causing some one a loss. Also if you die in WoW big woop, just go get your corpse, In EVE you lose your ship and your **** outta luck. The greatest FC's understand this and show appreciation for your efforts.
You'll have to really dig into that multi-billion ISK wallet of yours to replace the battleship you lost... Depending on repair costs, in WoW it could actually take MORE time to farm the gold to pay for the repair than it would to farm the isk for a new ship in EVE.
What the hell are you on about. First off you must have a poor fc if you just get down to blobs and not engaging if it is bigger. Second a good kill in eve can screw up someone's wallet for a long while, not everyone is a billionaire. I played wow for a good two years, the repair costs are trivial.
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Spineker
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.19 23:42:00 -
[57]
Wow = children many times
Eve = Adults almost always
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Nethras
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.06.20 01:16:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Straight Chillen Another important difference is that FC's in EVE must deal with gang morale and inspire their troops to fight. In WoW, your just raiding cuz you want an item or whatever or points. Where as here in EVE we fight for our corp/alliance, our space, our brothers, our very survival. A good FC understands this and can rally his fleet to fight against insurmountable odds, sacrificing their hard earned ships and isk, for the fleet/corp/alliance what ever, with out question.
WoW also has a very serious morale element, probably far worse than EVE in some ways - and it comes from the very fact that in WoW, a lot of people raid for items. When things are going well, there's no problem and the raid leader really doesn't have to do much beyond managing timing issues on some fights, and depending on the raid team, some amount of reminders.
WoW fights have binary results though - the boss dies and you get loot, or you wipe. You don't take out half the enemy fleet while losing yours. You don't get half as much loot. You get nada, and have to keep trying or you don't get any loot and don't get any farther in the dungeon. And since the bosses just sit there in their dungeons even if you do nothing, as opposed to coming and ganking you while you're farming or sitting at the auction house, or stealing the loot you've already gotten back, even if people don't realize it openly, you hit the burnout factor of not having any reason to raid to begin with, other than the results if you succeed - and the opponent you're losing to isn't even changing how he does it.
Now in EVE, the typical fleet isn't put together to go gain isk or modules. Pirate fleets often are of course, but you don't get into pirating solely to gain isk, reasonable pirates are doing what they do because they want to be pirates, and get isk via pirating because to them it's the most enjoyable way to gain isk. For non-pirate combat fleets though (I should note that my personal experience with EVE fleets is limited to FW fleets so far), the fleet is formed to either hurt your enemies, or defend from those enemies, or both. Since if you engage in combat you'll eventually lose your ship, and you aren't expecting personal gains to offset this, the people that join the fleet are there to support their comrades, not personal gain. If this is no longer true, there are no shiny baubles to keep them coming back to your fleets - and if your corp/alliance is having to actively enforce a common sense "you must show up to fleets when we need you damn it" rule other than with a few problematic members you can do without, I suspect your corp/alliance is in major trouble, just like WoW guilds that start having to berate their members to show up to raids
This, along with any opposition losses you inflict being permanent as well as your own losses, rather than having a boss that laughs in your face and heals back up to full, and being able to bring everyone you have available along in your fleet, makes me suspect far more WoW raids are filled with unmotivated people whose leaders feel the need to yell at than EVE fleets are.
Now, as I said, WoW morale is just worse for leaders in some ways, mostly in raids, as clearly a single major defeat in EVE can be FAR more crushing than anything in WoW, thus the null sec war propaganda machines to try to spin things for your own side and make losses even more crushing to your opponents. But that's why I think there's much more yelling in WoW raids.
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Neth'Rae
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.20 01:35:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Nguyen VanPhuoc onion and tomato
discuss
It's kinda funny onions make you cry while tomatoes don't..
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ShardowRhino
Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.06.20 01:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tippia ąpossibly because you need a modicum of intellectual prowess to play ≡v≡, and that trait tends to coincide with a slightly more mellow attitude
not even close. I never played wow...wait i did the trial. But i never did a raid but when your working with a group of players against anything be it pve or pvp it can be easy to get mad when players that should have some experience are acting like its their first day.
running a group of players that fill various roles is always going to be just as frustrating as any other game doing the same thing. I think its the general social norm of the player base of different games that have an effect on how those that run groups act. They are still doing the same things as the guy running a group in another mmo and can be just as complicated.
In Planetside the players are a lot more aggressive mentally. You can attribute that to the game's play style or to the types of players that are attracted to that style of game. That aggressive mentality becomes normal within the community. That mentality is going to alter the way people do things such as running groups. It doesn't mean that someone in that game is unable to do the same thing someone in eve or wow does. I could say theres a lot less to eve FCing then CR5ing or being a platoon leader in planetside since there is more to it then if you should go this or that way. Should you fight or leave. is that group of ships bait? Align to this or that gate/planet/station.
So to me FCing in eve sounds a lot easier then being an active cr5 working with the members of his Outfit(corp),those in his squad,platoon,other Cr5s,other outfits as well as any number of various individuals looking to work for the common good. You have that while worrying about locations you can lose in 15minutese or less. Players not bringing enough of X vehicle/aircraft or not hitting the right areas. Players not mining the hell out of different passes to slow enemy reinforcements.
Its a lot faster paced game and people have shorter fuses and less tolerance for failure before they decide to stop listening to anyone regardless of who they are. They dont care becasue they can die 1000times and not worry about losing anything. IN eve people cant just say "Screw this! im going to go solo." 20 jumps into hostile territory and have a chance of living. In eve the safety in numbers will give FCs a free bonus amount of control simply because players would rather listen to someone that has no clue 20jumps out and stay with the pack and have a chance of getting their ship home in one peice,as opposed to running solo.
In eve if the fc fails he can blame lag,numbers and spies. You don't get that in PSide. There is only 1 situation where a spy can screw you over and it gives the leader a pass for failure. Fcs can do it all day long and never have to prove it. PS is full of lag. Numbers,you can be taking on 4 times your own numbers with the opposition having all possible benifits(think t1 frig vs t2BS) and people are still going to expect you to lead them to victory with no room for excuses.
So the risks involved in eve pvp i would say is nothing compared to the pressure of leading in planetside in spite of the free gear/free respawn. Don't forget insurance helps a lot in eve to reduce true losses.
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