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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
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Posted - 2011.09.09 17:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:Hello Everyone,
Amidst the recent forum activity about reports of decreased subscriber count, discontent about lack of resources allocated to "Flying In Space" (or, as we know it, Eve Online) and, despite Gridlock and Team BFF's efforts, general stagnation when it comes to fixes and improvements, the CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.
During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns with the man who has the ability to resolve them. We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA'd, but ways to resolve your concerns have been discussed and a follow-up meeting is planned.
Stay tuned...
Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6
Sounds good, but the currency of sounding good has become rather devalued as of late.
Ah man I'm sorry, I know you're doing everything that can be done in your situation and I am genuinely grateful. I hope your efforts end up being rewarded with tangible results. Please keep on trying for us.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Richard Hammond II wrote:The Mittani wrote:we'll be relaxing the media pressure for now. Take that for what you will.
Why do I have the possible feeling legal measures and/or bannings were threatened lol
From the available evidence, because you're not too bright and twist everything to fit your pre-conceived worldview?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
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Posted - 2011.09.09 19:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.
But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.
It's better to give us what information that you can than no information at all. I trust you will once again reiterate to CCP that clear honest communications with their customers will always yield better results than evasion, spin or turtling up.
PS It must be frustrating to have to reiterate this same basic lesson over and over again...
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
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Posted - 2011.09.09 20:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sister Bliss wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.
But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS. Lobbying for CCP to focus on FIS is virtually too late...
What else should the CSM do?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
130
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Posted - 2011.09.10 07:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:like even the meeting occurred I think it occurred, and threats of legal action / bannings were liberally handed out and they were told to me good little lapdogs again or **** would get real an the one ex lawyer would get to meet the CCP legal team oh yeah what kind of lawyer is he I wanted to ask that the first time I heard he was one. Cause if he's anything other than international/icelandic corporate law, Im pretty sure he's in over his head here Hotaru Yamato wrote:I trust the CSM will represent the eve players' views to the best to their ability. epic troll
Thanks for your analysis, O mighty internet lawyer. Can you tell me exactly what law you think the CSMs might be faced with charges under? "A first degree charge of Saying Mean Things That Are Provably True"? So far as I know, none of them live in Iceland, so they'd have to be extradited to face any charges.
As for banning? Yeah that'd work well, real smart tactics. I can tell you've read your Machiavelli. Even apart from the tsunami of horrible PR that would generate, even apart from the massive shitstorm that would immediately occur within the playerbase, what do you think the reaction of the banned CSMs might be? Might there be some retaliation that they could take, do you think?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
157
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Posted - 2011.09.11 20:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:And here is where I must turn the lash on the CSM. They should've kept their mouths shut until after the next meeting at a minimum. I fail to see any positive impact for the playerbase by their posting. As best as I can tell, all they've accomplished is to create a platform for their own unseemly self-aggrandizement. I expect better of them. Alas, damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we say nothing, we get yelled at for being useless do-nothing morons. If we say what we feel comfortable saying (which is not much right now, alas), we get yelled at for being useless desperate attention whores. If we say too much, we compromise our ability to advocate on behalf of the community, because CCP will tell us less. Bottom line, my policy is always to do what I think is in the best interests of the community, regardless of the personal consequences, subject to the legal obligations I have placed myself under by signing the NDA. I believe I am doing so now, as are the other members of the CSM. If it turns out that I'm wrong, then I'll happily take my lumps.
This is indeed a thorny political - and indeed philosophical problem
My advice would be to resolve the trilemma by always following my advice. Luckily, this is to give us as much information as you can at each discreet stage of the process. I say "luckily" because this is exactly what you have done here.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
157
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Posted - 2011.09.11 20:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
EDIT: Well I see one much valued feature from the old EVE forums was carried over at least.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
165
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Posted - 2011.09.12 09:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:Sometimes unpopular decisions are necessary (speed nerf was unpopular but necessary, same with falcon/ECM), but for those they usually have the approval of the level-headed CSM members...
Speaking of which, the supercap nerf is going to deliver some quality drama.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
165
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Posted - 2011.09.12 13:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Xtraneous wrote:Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
That they did... Subs took a hit, overall in-game activity took a hit, etc. It's a shame CCP has not yet learned to listen to what we say to an extent that would be beneficial.
I've been curious about this since it was mentioned the CSM was briefed on these metrics at the summit - can you elaborate on how much of a hit subs and game activity took? or is this NDA'd? i didn't see any hard numbers mentioned in the minutes...
IIRC, the exact number was NDA'd and CCP haven't released active sub numbers since. For what it's worth, Mittani reported that he was very surprised to see such high numbers of cancellations, - and this was in the context of people floating numbers around the 5,000 mark just from the "unsubscribed" thread. My seat of the pants guess would be in the 10-20,000 range.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
165
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Posted - 2011.09.12 13:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
BugraT WarheaD wrote:Meissa Anunthiel wrote:Plus frankly that person is doing a good job. I'm sad the same can't be said of the (imo) idiots in charge of pricing strategy but that's a separate issue. I totally agree with this. Why a so idiot pricing strategy ... If Nex prices were divided by 10, i'm sure there's a lot of people to buy stuff from that shop
IIRC, the "concept" was that they wanted to establish EVE as a "Premium brand".
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.12 21:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
The Mittani wrote: sigh, + repping another jade post
fml
What have we become?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.12 21:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:The Mittani wrote:Getting CCP to admit mistakes in plain english is very hard. The more defensive they are, the more likely their interlocutors at the higher levels are to use weasel words and lengthy caveats. That's pretty standard for most corporations though. It's frustrating as hell but I suppose it's par for the course?
Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust. At this point I care less about them admitting they've chronically under-resourced and neglected core Eve Online for the last several years than in them commiting immediately to a return to proper expansions with genuinely-impressive content and feature sets that use a significant portion of their manpower to produce. If Hillmar wants to blame volcanic ash for the crap state of Eve so be it. Just get them to start producing Exodus/ Apocrypha scale development again and I think everyone will be very happy. They were able to do this once when they were much smaller. There is no reason they can't do it again. (especially not when the potential survival of their sole current income-source is at risk)
When did you get all ~succint~ ? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 10:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Azelor Delaria wrote:Meissa Anunthiel wrote:The CSM is only as good as its capacity to engage the devs in dialog and give them feedback. Each CSM has added more communication abilities on top of what its predecessor already had, it should therefore come as no surprise that each CSM is able to accomplish more. I disagree. By the admission of many on the current CSM as well as CCP employees, the abilities of the CSM are directly related to how Hilmer et al. respond. You can get every developer in CCP to agree with you, but if they don't have the resources that Hilmar controls and allocates, then it is all for naught. If you want anything done, you need to get Hilmar's approval. In the end, he is the only person who matters. Developers, as I have said, can swear up and down that they agree, and they will get it done, but if Hilmar refuses to give them the components needed to effectively do their job, then it's your own fault for not engaging your brain and thinking beyond the small box that every member of the current CSM is standing in.
You seem to be under the impression that the CSM don't understand a point which they themselves have been making for weeks. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Azelor Delaria wrote:
No, we shouldn't. When your defense is, "We're CSM, listen to what we say", there is no reason for us to listen.
.
Except that's the polar opposite of what he actually said. He said that you should look at the CSM's past record of telling the truth in order to judge their current truthfulness.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Malcanis wrote:Azelor Delaria wrote:
No, we shouldn't. When your defense is, "We're CSM, listen to what we say", there is no reason for us to listen.
.
Except that's the polar opposite of what he actually said. He said that you should look at the CSM's past record of telling the truth in order to judge their current truthfulness. Yes, because The Mittani has such a reputation for honesty.
So what's your theory? That mittens has hypnotised the other CSM members with his super mind-powers and now they agree with everything he says?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 20:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
tika te wrote:Quote:We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA. all said; usless thread with more empty promises..
So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret?
Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better ForeverGäó in one meeting? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 21:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Azelor Delaria wrote:Two step wrote:Malcanis wrote:tika te wrote:Quote:We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA. all said; usless thread with more empty promises.. So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret? Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better ForeverGäó in one meeting? Uh, yes, they are. I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options. I, personally, would rather not know about some vague meeting in which you claim you brought up "several" things bothering the community-at-large, yet hide behind the NDA and say you can't tell us what was mentioned. How is mentioning what you talked about with regards to what you claim are the "concerns" of those posting here NDA material? I mean, seriously. Did you guys talk about trade secrets? I think having a discussion - especially one where, and I'm quoting CCP Zulu on this:
Well don't read the damb post then. Some of us do like to be kept informed of details; there's no one forcing you to read or care about minor updates if all you care about are the major updates.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 21:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Two step wrote: There isn't some mythical 3rd choice here that we are not choosing to spite you.
Mittens hypnotised you into not disclosing the mythical 3rd choice just admit it
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 22:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
Two step wrote: We have started that process, perhaps you might consider waiting for the results before you decide if we failed.
And who knows, if he really wanted all that stuff to happen, he might even consider supporting the CSM rather than actively undermining it as vigorously as he could.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.13 22:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Two step wrote:Malcanis wrote:Two step wrote: There isn't some mythical 3rd choice here that we are not choosing to spite you.
Mittens hypnotised you into not disclosing the mythical 3rd choice just admit it Hmm, I don't remember anything, but I do have a strange craving for bacon...
*handwave*
These are not the -droids- proposals you're looking for!
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 07:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Did you vote?
And what else should the CSM do but talk to CCP? Do you think that they should sneak in to the building and code in some features in a daring midnight operation? What timescales are you expecting the CSM to work and elicit results on? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 07:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Malcanis wrote:Did you vote?
And what else should the CSM do but talk to CCP? Do you think that they should sneak in to the building and code in some features in a daring midnight operation? What timescales are you expecting the CSM to work and elicit results on? ^^ this People that don't vote have no right to complain. Period.
They have a right to complain, but they don't have much of a case to be taken seriously. Especially when they're so hugely unrealistic and entitled.
Is it necessary that the CSM sign an NDA in order to fully function? Yes, obviously. Have individuals CCP abused the NDA in a (futile) attempt to spare themselves embarrassment? Again, obviously
So what can the CSM do about it? They should certainly have idscussion about the NDA with CCP, and get a better process implemented. The point should be strongly made that using the NDA to cover up embarassing discussions does nothing but exacerbate the situation and is in any case ultimately futile. Fuckups remain fuckups whether or not the CSM are allowed to publish the "We asked CCP how the hell they ****** this up so badly" minutes.
They might be able to do things like propose that the NDA system be reformed, for example with shorter durations for less sensitive items, and more rational NDA expiry times (eg: CCP plan to make Thullium into the "new Technetium", the bottleneck material in T2 production. Obviously, market sensitive data like this need to be NDA'd, but once the change goes live, there is no longer a need to NDA any discussion about it.
Another example might be to note who exactly in CCP requested that a specific discussion be NDA'd, so that there is an accountability chain if the NDA process is abused: "The CSM questioned CCP about $_GIGANTIC_MISTAKE, but the details were NDA'd at the request of CCP Herpaderpa and CCP Fecalcranium"
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 12:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Temulkar Blaine wrote:Meissa Anunthiel wrote:Temulkar Blaine wrote:Look nobody in their right mind is decrying the efforts of the CSM. I certainly appreciate the fact they took time out of their lives to go to Iceland and try to improve this game.
Two step gets uber defensive claiming the fact that they went to the summit should be applauded. It should be.
However, the point of my initial comment that two step was responding to was that CCP did not listen in July. The july summit was an abject failure. The process of communicating with CCP was proven to be fundementally flawed. There have been no improvemets in direction attitude or communication between the players and CCP since that meeting.
I reiterate the CSM is not a paliament it is a talking shop. Unfortunatly some of this CSM seem to be convinced they have more power or authority than they really have.
As for utterly ridiculous statements like people who dont vote cant complain. This is not a democratic nation, power is not derived from the electorate power is in the hands of a game manufacturer. If you play the game you have a right to complain about it and a right not to pay for a substandard product if that is your choice.
And I did vote in the election by the way. CSM is a democratically elected body tasked with interacting with devs. The only authority we have is that given to us by you and CCP, collectively. The powers we have are byproducts of that. If we talk with devs and tell you "they're going to **** something up big time", you'll rage. If we talk to the devs and they tell us "they're fixing this", even though you (collective) may not see the results directly, you see the direction. Statements made by the CSM to the public, if not respected induce :rage: and threadnoughts as a result. So it's indirect power, but it's power still. Oh, and people who don't vote have every right to complain if they so want, and they have the same power we have. It just takes many more of non-voters to achieve the same result than having someone represent you can. You are not democratically elected you are elected by democratic process there is a significant difference. You have no power. You can only effect change if CCP listens to you as pointed out by two step. YOu have no executive decision makers, there is no accountability to the electorate, Your mandate is derived from less than 10% of the game population, not from a popular vote. You are a talking shop that CCP can choose to take account of or can dismiss and ignore when they so choose. You have no electoral power imbued in the CSM as a body to change that. You may have dignitas and authority from your position as community leaders, Im sure the goons respect mittens after all but dont mistake that for actual power within a game company. The power in a busuness resides with the owners and investors of that businness not with workers committees or customer satisfaction think tanks. You do not have any power in any discussion with CCP. It is delusional to claim otherwise. You can express opinions, give feedback, communicate dissatisfaction but you have no power. You can effect change by direct action, blogging, posting here and contacting the gaming press. You should have continued that until CCP were prepared to come to the community as a whole with clear plans on how they were going to address our concerns. Instead you bent over as soon as CCP asked. You stopped all direct action at the drop of a hat and threw away the one bargaining point you actually had going for you. Get over yourself Meissa the guys with MBA's in the PR department in Rekjavik are wetting themselves that you have fallen for their blag again.
You are employing a common fallacy (the fallacy of the excluded middle) in trying to assert that there is no spectrum of influence between executive power and utter powerlessness. It's obviously true that Meissa or Two Step don't have as much power as, say, Hilmar, but it's also readily obvious that they don't have zero power either. It is dishonest of you to try and use logical fallacies to assert that the CSM don't have some power to influence what CCP and the way they do it. Multiple devs have confirmed that they have found the CSM extremely useful in shaping how - and even whether - features get developed.
But it's so much easier to ignore the abundant available evidence and prove that you are just too smart, too cynical, too world-wise to be fooled and spend time running down the CSM instead of supporting them. Do you think that people like you, constantly smacking the CSM and insulting the members make the CSM more powerful or less powerful? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 13:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Temulkar Blaine wrote:You are mistaking an ability to influence as power to effect change...
Can you explain the difference to me?
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 18:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
the plague wrote:
Very few people are actually arguing that EVE Online has been getting better...
Actually, the really heartbreaking thing is that the few people who are assigned to spaceships-EVE have been doing really good work. In some very tangible ways, EVE has got better. The results produced by Team Gridlock have been nothing short of astounding, for instance. The lag monster hasn't been entirely slain, but he's definitely been pushed out of the region of 3-digit fights. In a purely mechanical sense, the FiS engine is in the best shape it has ever been. Team BFF also did sterling work in clearing up many of the longstanding minor annoyances in the EVE UI and various gameplay issues that caused annoyance out of proportion to their objective significance purely because they were so minor and had been left for so long. Technically speaking, CCP are actually in a excellent place to develop spaceships-EVE: the game platform is in an excellent state (in shameful contrast to the appalling Incarna platform). Investing in expanding spaceships-EVE would be really easy now.
When one imagines what could have been achieved by having not just 2 but 8 or 10 dev-teams, of similar dedication and commitment to delivering as Team Gridlock, working on spaceships-EVE expansions... well, I think that's where the angst really comes from. I could easily imagine us having by now an EVE with 500k+ subs and increasing steadily; new types of space environment, new ships, new modules, new things to do, new places to be. System wide belts. Individual private player stations. Space cities. Mining made to be actually fun. Challenging, unpredictable PvE. Treaties.
That was the future we were expecting after Apocrypha. Instead we got a dismal motel room and space-farmville. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 18:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Temulkar Blaine wrote:You are mistaking an ability to influence as power to effect change... Can you explain the difference to me?
Still waiting, btw. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 19:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Temulkar Blaine wrote:Im not wriggling, I will restate it clearly so you understand.
The power resides withn the body of the decision maker. It is the decision makers who effect change.
A lobbyist can affect the decision made by the decision maker but by virtue of their inability to take the decisions themselves they do not have power.
OK well I'm done letting you make yourself look stupid, so let's talk about something else now. PM me if you want to find out about adult literacy classes or even if you're just not sure what a synonym is.
PS Did you know that electricity and heat are both types of power, even though they're physically completely different? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
222
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Posted - 2011.09.14 19:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Temulkar Blaine wrote:I openly stated Thatcher loved the show, Its a comminly known fact.
Now whilst Im happy to have this debate rationally, You know your being ridiculous. You are shifting an argument to a thirty year old tv programme rather than looking at the concepts of delegated authority within a state.
Rather than looking at the posts I have made on this issue within this thread your trying to shift your argument away fronm the pertinent issues. really Thatcher was manipulated is not smart, I accepted your facepalm when I talked of lobbyists even though it exemplifies my point.
There are multiple text books on law and the state and where power resides, go and read one please.
Law books are one thing; reality is another. You seem to be fixated on legal or official authority as the only meaningful conduit of power, when it's is blindingly obvious that it isn't.
As for your Thatcher comment, she also openly stated that Yes Minister was a "clearly-observed portrayal of what goes on in the corridors of power". Are you saying that you know more about the actual reality of governing than Thatcher? If not, why would you ignore her very plain statement that YM is an excellent illustration of that reality?
Honestly, your blind unwillingness to concede an argument does you no favours. Ability and influence are synonyms of power. get over it. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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