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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.24 12:04:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith
Multiple conversations between myself and Marcus resulted in him attempting to explain this was all a mistake, but he was unwilling to offer any confirm-able proof in his defense, and promised repeatedly to deliver said fuel to our Alliance. This has never occurred.
We are fairly certain he is the individual responsible due to timestamps and access logs from holding corp alt characters who had access to these assets. We have some indication that other Omen members were aware of and potentially assisted in this theft but this can not be confirmed with in-game evidence.
How is it possible to offer "confirm-able proof" of a theft not committed?
I of course can't speak on any of your private meetings with Marcus regarding fuel supplies (as I wasn't there) but I can assure you that any implication of involvement of omen members in this is false, Marcus never mentioned anything like this on either corp mail, vent or chat.
I'm a believer of the adagium innocent until proven otherwise, you turn that around. As far as the POSses go, Omen took down their personal POSses after it became apperant that Bruce was not willing to defend our assets we put up for the sake of Bruce - do not blame us for the failings and incompetence of your military command, it was weak military leadership and a memberbase not willing to fight for their territory (Omen did their share of defending, we lost enough until you guys backstabbed us) that made us lose the war, not Marcus Malos or any other Omen member.
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith
Alliances or corp-mates of these individuals who desire more detailed evidence of these accusations please contact myself or William Mc*****en, the current bruce diplomat. Our internal investigation was fairly thorough and we are all but certain these individuals are responsible for the thefts we are accusing them of. We would be happy to provide hard evidence to relevent and interested parties.
If you can offer more (read 'any' to be honest) detailed and/or hard evidence of your accusations against Omen than why don't you just put it in here?
As I summarise your post I come to the conclusion that you sofar have only made: Groundless accusations towards Omen based on flimsy circumstantial evidence against alts you did not name and logs that the reader can not even verify. The above while laying the blame on Marcus for not proving he is innocent (which he shouldn't even have to and is also impossible).
This looks to me like you are trying to find a scapegoat to put the blame of Bruce's loss on, considering you are part of the military command that is largely to blame for Bruce's failing in the first place that doesn't make you sound very credible.
Drea`D
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.24 12:58:00 -
[2]
Edited by: dr34dd on 24/06/2008 13:00:32
Originally by: Sorrowed I personally could care less what you say and or what type of proof you attempt to post here, those of us in the know have all the proof and documentation needed to justify the outright hunting and systematic butchering of anyone associated with you and or your corp.
Kind of makes you wonder why none of it is in this thread then, if those of 'you in the know' have all the proof and documentation needed, why make a thread about it without posting a scrap of "confirm-able proof" (a term coined by Elrick).
Originally by: Sorrowed Hey marcus, i have all 2300 posts nicely converted to PDF that were on the reps forum. I will not be posting them or copying anything from them.
I rest my case :']. The fact that you (in your head ) don't need assistance to take us down doesn't give you a free pass to post a load of BS without any tangible evidence and sound credible at the same time.
The fact that your original response was that you are putting on a public vendetta for allegedly having 3 fuel incidents in 4 months time when running over 40 posses kinda made me chuckle, I'm surprised you actually have time to run contracts with that attitude.
As an interested reader who is apperantly 'guilty by association' I'm still waiting on an account of the fuel thing from both sides, some 'confirm-able proof' would be nice actually.
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.24 13:29:00 -
[3]
Have you actually read ANYTHING in this thread except for the title and first post Kira?
There's another side to this fairytale, while it is very easy and attractive for the military command and others in a key position to blame 2 corps for the downfall of an alliance of thousands (especially if you let go of the need to post any evidence) it doesn't make it correct.
Unfortunately with threads like these the first post seems convincing if you skimread it, only when you take a closer look to the original text you actually see how flawed and weak the underlying argumentation really is.
^ <- that's me referring to the posts above made by several people of the eve community that turns this thread into a laughing stock.
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.24 13:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Anastasia Korenchkin Marcus Malos was a notorious cheat and all-round scumbag in another game I used to play (Planetarion). I guess leopards really don't change their spots.
I actually condone that remark btw :P Marcus was probably the biggest cheat in the history of tickbased gaming :'], though that didn't include 'stealing' anything, it involved running multiple accounts which was forbidden in that game (which it's not in eve).
That doesn't say much about him in eve though and more specific: it doesn't prove he stole anything from Bruce (or any other corp/alliance for that)
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:07:00 -
[5]
Edited by: dr34dd on 24/06/2008 14:08:53
Originally by: Eltyron Edited by: Eltyron on 24/06/2008 14:00:31
Originally by: dr34dd
Nobody likes a hypocrite right
I just pointed some out.
Marcus hasn't said anything about other corps leaving bruce, he just said that the accusation of being a scumbag was a bit odd coming from someone who left bruce himself therefore not condoning him for leaving bruce but for pointing the finger at someone else when Sorrow is as much at fault as the one he's pointing at, ergo being a hypocrite :-).
Originally by: Marcus Malos
Oh and how long did those people who you extracted with our corp assets stay? A week or two at most, as soon as stuff got tough they ran off over to other alliances like Pure.
Stating that someone wasn't very adept at nicking "the good members" when they left him within weeks doesn't make you a hypocrite either :p - my stance is not that Omen are saints, my stance is that you can not blame us for leaving as we got backstabbed and took losses for the alliance without even getting the courtesy of an attempt at help. This thread and it's unbased accusations of alliance theft is only another confirmation of my idea on Bruce.
Drea`D
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 14:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith Edited by: Elrick Coldsmith on 24/06/2008 15:41:45 Secondly, if you had disagreements or a lack of faith with the bruce military leadership, then it is your prerogative to leave. Leaving is VERY different than grabbing whatever isn't bolted down on your way out.
I'm glad you at least state we had a prerogative to leave. We haven't grabbed anything that wasn't ours to begin with and you haven't proven anything otherwise either so I guess that would put us in the clear then.
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith It seems you are making some implication that "we left and stole your stuff cus the mark3 sucked
You misread me, we haven't stolen anything, we didn't even leave because the MK3 sucked (we left because bruce refused to give us assistance when they were well able to), the MK3 fiasco was just an example I gave of the military failings of bruce and in turn I state that the maker of this thread had plenty of reason to scapegoat Omen for the military failings of which the MK3 was just 1 example.
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith At no point have we said that "Its omen's fault we failed".
Indeed you haven't said it openly and I recognised that already in an earlier post, however bringing this thread up now (1.5 month after we left) and in this manner (no proof) raises questions and makes the following implication "Omen stole alot of our assets, who knows what would have happened in this fight if that didn't happen? Who knows..". That is one of the statements the superficial reader will read in your thread and that's one of the reasons you and anyone else responsible for bruce's fiasco would have to make a thread full of groundless accusations while not being able to back up a single one of them.
I'm glad you at least made an effort to turn this back with a comment on page 4, however if you really wanted to "merely warn the eve community of thieves" you hade made a really poor effort, you have nothing to ground this on except for circumstantial evidence (the API of some of the other persons that had access to the stolen goods is not evidence of Marcus stealing anything, and his refusal to supply you with his API could have had any reason from not wanting to give an outsider insight in his financial doings with alts/spies to not feeling any need whatsoever to partcipate in a wichhunt).
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith In ANY case, none of your complaints so far justifies alliance theft.
You are absolutely right, then again as stated over and over, we deny that theft and you haven't given any real evidence of it either. As a matter of fact, the only "hard and detailed evidence" you sofar have been able to give me as requested ingame was an excuse that you're still sorting out your evidence.. The only thing sofar you have supplied me with was a private chatlog of you and Marcus (in which you ask him were the fuel is and marcus said he already delivered it lol so bravo :\).
I think you're a reasonable man tbh and I don't think you would have made this thread if you didn't at least believe yourself this happened. What you might want to ask yourself is, how sure are you really about any of this? What you have given us sofar is merely circumstantial evidence and not even directly pointed against Marcus which is not only a very weak basis to accuse an eveplayer of theft in public, but it's also a very weak basis to base your personal assumptions on. It doesn't do well for your credibility and in turn I hope that if you ever are in a leading position in an alliance again I do hope you treat your members there better, as you said yourself we had a prerogative to leave, we however do not deserve this knife in the back after we left.
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 14:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: dr34dd on 25/06/2008 14:35:48
Originally by: Sorrowed As for all the people spouting off about how i shouldnt post accusations on CAOD without proof. I am not a member of bruce, nor am i posting accusations about omen.
Maybe I ought to refresh your memory:
Originally by: Sorrowed
You did not give months notice and had 3 seperate incidents where ya let POS's go offline due to lack of fueling. You had access and were tasked out with buying the fuel right as FOOM was leaving. You withdrew the isk from the holding corp and never delivered the items.
You sir are a liar and a cheat. Your Corp members, oh, and your 2 alt/feeder corps are also liable for theft by association.
Originally by: Sorrowed The peanut gallery known as the common CAOD community can comment all they wish but i have not asked for the general members opinions or will i heed their comments.
Then maybe a public forum is not the right place heh..
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 17:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Grim Mercy This is the only reference to the assumed stolen 11bil and/or fuels on behalf of Omen. Not saying you guys did or didn't do it, but it is being glossed over.
Just wanted to point that out.
You are absolutely right, I had no part in any fuel agreement thus I can't comment on that aspect of the accusations, that's up to Marcus. The only thing I do know is that Marcus said it was delivered/paid back for (he said this both to his corp and to bruce officials in private conversation). It also wouldn't make sense for him to nick fuel money considering he had access to over a 100 battleships aswell which he could take without much problems (and leave 0 papertrail) aswell as many other Bruce items. As I haven't seen much proof in the other accusations and Marcus told me he paid back whatever he was due I personally am inclined, in these circumstances, to take his word for it, also considering the fact that he was richer than god before he even joined Bruce .
I'm pretty sure this is all a misunderstanding but it will be harder to find out now that Elrick decided to take such an agressive stance and decided to throw this all out in an open wichhunt rather than trying to find out what happened to his stuff as I doubt Marcus will be even slightly interested in helping him find out who accepted payment for what and who has been screwing him over after this.
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 22:36:00 -
[9]
You put too much faith in API accounting, there are ways around it. The reason Marcus doesn't want to give anyone full API access needs no defending. I could nick Bruce their entire networth except for wallets and give you my API key without you finding a damned thing and I'd probably still wouldn't want to give anyone full access to my financial data for security reasons.
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 22:48:00 -
[10]
Sorry that was a typo, I meant to say he might have friends/connections in several other alliances in the game (not even lying here btw, that actually was a typo :\) and that could be one of the reasons he doesn't want his API spread around. Apart from that it's quoted out of context and I'm quite sure I put up more of a defense than that ;-), I'm quite certain I mentioned that he's trusted with alot more than bruce's fuel funds and he felt no need to nick any of that either, including bruce's supply of battleships and the such. I asked you why would he want to steal something that leaves a huge papertrail while leaving 10 bil worth of battleships and a couple hundred of trimark rigs alone :\.
Nice going to publicize our private conversations by the way, I'm sure that kind of attitude gets you all the help you need in your investigation
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 22:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith
yes, info in API keys can be manipulated, screenshots can be photoshopped, chat logs can be faked. Its a damned game, we aren't working by real world legal court standards here. The missing modules and ships being sold by marcus and hisgoatness DIRECTLY in fountain is pretty clear and isn't really fakeable. And the 11 billion in fuel is quite verifiable, as is the fact that we never received it.
To respond to your edit, it's obvious you aren't working by real world legal court standards or you'd get sued for slander :p.
Thing is, you make very hard accusations and the thing it's based upon mostly on (claimed) API verification of others, think about it. If someone nicked your stuff, they would be very eager to supply you with 'evidence' that they haven't done it - as you said: API can be manipulated, screenshots can be photoshopped and chat logs can be faked, and I reckon anyone who just nicked for billions worth of stuff wouldn't have much problems doing all of the above. The fact that some of us like Marcus are protective of their API data doesn't mean a damned thing, especially not as I could easily help him to make it impossible for you to find anything that could even be related to the theft if he actually had compromising data in his journal (which I do not believe he has).
Everyone in fountain is selling stuff, I even have a couple of sellorders there myself - Omen had over 40 personal posses up and running while we were members of bruce and not everything could be shipped out so easily, that doesn't make him a thief either. And you can say alot of Marcus about his past in other games but he's never been stupid and first nicking for billions worth of stuff from an alliance and then selling it off a month later is not the smartest thing in the world..
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 23:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith If you acknowledge theres a huge papertrail, why do you not believe us when we point at the huge papertrail and say, hmm it leads to marcus.
I'm not saying the papertrail is reliable in any way, it can be messed with, I'm saying he wouldn't have to resort to anything that could even be pointed his way if he wanted to nick 10 bil worth of stuff from Bruce.
Besides like you said there were several corps who accessed the items that are stolen in the timeframe you mentioned, the papertrail didn't point his way at all, it pointed to several different corps who had no problems supplying a (very well possibly compromised) API, the fact that Marcus doesn't want his API out in the open (and we've just seen how careful you are with private conversations) doesn't mean he's guilty of anything.
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.25 23:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith
I ask you again dr34, where is the fuel he "contracted" to serena,
I don't recall you having asked me that before but if you have I'll repeat my stance on that part of the accusations anyway:
I had no part in any fuel agreement thus I can't comment on that aspect of the accusations, that's up to Marcus. ... I'm pretty sure this is all a misunderstanding but it will be harder to find out now that Elrick decided to take such an agressive stance and decided to throw this all out in an open wichhunt rather than trying to find out what happened to his stuff as I doubt Marcus will be even slightly interested in helping him find out who accepted payment for what and who has been screwing him over after this.
Originally by: Elrick Coldsmith and where did he get SO many pos modules matching the stolen ones to put up on market in pnqy?
My wildest guess would be jita, that's usually were people go to buy stuff right? When you own 40 posses and you put a bunch of them on the market I'm sure alot of the mods would match if somewere else a load of posses get stolen as it's not that unusual for POSses to employ the same type of modules. I don't know alot about posses though so correct me if I'm wrong..
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.26 00:43:00 -
[14]
Edited by: dr34dd on 26/06/2008 00:45:39 Edited by: dr34dd on 26/06/2008 00:44:12
Originally by: Gragnor
I am in fact enjoying this thread. Omen's credibility is dead and Marcus's reputation (if he had any) is being rightfully traduced. His corpmates also know what he is like.
The evidence is quite strong and the response totally inadequate. All in all, I am more then comfortable in seeing Omen being made accountable for its actions. Why let it drop when we are now having so much fun.
As for why Bruce fell, some of your comments are accurate, most of them are not. For mine; I knew precisely when we were done and it was before FOOM or Freidrich left.
If you actually read past page 1 in this thread you seem to be enjoying so much you'd know marcus "his corpmates" actually back him up against these false accusations. Aside from Marcus his membership the name of Omen is already 100% in the clear as stated by Elrick aswell.
Elrick and I actually just came to the conclusion that any API evidence he has against Marcus can easily be falsified so we're down from "hard evidence" to "we got nothing on them yet but they are selling pos mods comparable to the ones we had in stock so they must of nicked them", leaving aside the disputed fuel/isk theft of 11 bill on which I myself have little information.
Now go read the other 4 pages if you like this so much :).
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.26 06:03:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon I can't wait to see what you guys say when you discover what the new Executor was up to, especially since I was the one who exposed it. The drama will be absolutely delicious, I'm sure. I bet it'll even get thrown back on me, too, since it's fun to dump the blame. ;)
Care to elaborate a little bit there?
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dr34dd
Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.26 19:22:00 -
[16]
Edited by: dr34dd on 26/06/2008 19:25:52 Edited by: dr34dd on 26/06/2008 19:23:58 Ofc trying to avoid too much speculation here but considering Friedrick's accusations on serena and the fact she refused to check the audit logs of the cans the fuel was put in on the day it went missing I guess we can now start answering your question of what happened to your 11bil in fuel if Marcus didn't nick it ;-).
Best case scenario atm Elrick got played and only made a fool out of himself on here while causing some bad blood with the people he falsely accused, worst case scenario he's associated with this - great leadership either way mate, keep it up. This is exactly the reason why you want to have solid proof before you start making accusations, I'm looking forward to Friedrick's stance on this.
As it's starting to look less and less likely Marcus actually had anything to do with this the alternative is that you're either a tool or a thief, I'm pegging you as a tool myself personally but that's up for everyone to form their own opinion on the matter.
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dr34dd
Amarr Omen Incorporated Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:39:00 -
[17]
Elrick to respond to your mail ingame:
Yeah your doing alot of defending of marcus there,, why doesnt he speak for himself?
Wheres the screenshot of his completed and accepted contract to serena for the fuel then huh?
ass,,,,
Mind you, unlike Elrick I don't like bringing private conversation into the public area but as he's blocked me/my corp from ingame mails right after he send this it seemed the logical way to reply.
Marcus doesn't speak for himself because he cba defending himself on COAD anymore, I like COAD and like making a fool out of those that accuse us falsely because I believe that defending yourself does have a use.
It's kind of silly to ask of a screenshot for his completed and accepted contract to serena considering we just came to the conclusion on the previous page that screenshots can be faked so easily. Marcus cba with any of this anymore so he won't send anything (I doubt he's even reading this) but that doesn't mean he can't send you this screenshot, thing is even if he did it wouldn't prove anything considering they can be faked so easily (and I for one got the photoshop skills to do it if we wanted to cheat you on this in the same way your CEO ****** you over).
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