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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:20:00 -
[1]
Missiles don't do any damage on fast going ships (aka nanos), so turrets shouldn't be able to hit them either, for the sake of balance.
Missile damage is reduced by target size and speed, turret damage is reduced by target size and transversal velocity.
Transversal velocity doesn't play a big role when the target is far away (what currently is the case with the latest nano-tactics), so they don't understand why missile users are upset about nano setups.
Since missiles do less damage in general, it's not unbalanced to add a velocity-based damage reduction factor for turret ships, so that the turret damage is affected by target size, target speed and trasversal velocity.
Then i want to see how many of the forum warriors who say nanos are not a problem, will suddenly change their minds, after they tried to catch a nano and get in webifier range, doing 0.2 damage with their main weapon system while constantly being shot at by the whole speed-fitted enemy gang 
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Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:27:00 -
[2]
or we could buff missiles slightly.
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EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age
The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist. |
Fetchme
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:27:00 -
[3]
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
Ever heard of tracking.
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Indigo Johnson
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:33:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 26/06/2008 10:33:39
 Originally by: Fetchme
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
My turrets hit nano ships fine....if the pilot is stupid enough to either fly away from me in a straight line or towards me in a straight line giving us a 0m/s transversal velocity.
The only "nano'ed ship" that can really do any damage going 6km/s is one that uses drones or missiles so go figure which they are and how easy they are to nano.
If you are losing to nano-ships, do not engage unless you are setup correctly and/or the fights in your favour <--- basic eve concept tbh.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Fetchme
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
Ever heard of tracking.
Tracking is an issue if the ship orbits you, but then you or one of your gangmates who is close by could use a neut, problem solved. Current nano gangs make a combination of speedsetup+sniping, or they approach to optimal, fire a volley and get out to 100km again, theres no way for missile ships to hurt them, while turret ships do nice damage and don't understand the complaints.
Would not be a problem if the main weapon type of a whole race is missiles.
To be more precise, missile damage is affected by 4 factors (resistance, target size, target speed velocity x 2 [1: missile must catch the target, 2: missile must have sufficiant explosive velocity to hurt]), turret damage only by 3, so it's not wrong to add a 4th damage reduction to turrets, so they have the same challenge as missiles against one of the currently most popular tanking methods.
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Belatu Cadro
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Fetchme
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
Ever heard of tracking.
Tracking is an issue if the ship orbits you, but then you or one of your gangmates who is close by could use a neut, problem solved. ...
well, it seems you've just answered your own question there. please explain how this will not work for missiles.
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:45:00 -
[7]
Erm... But that IS balanced already!
All you need to make sure in missile ship is that your target is hittable (speed/size) and in range. Then you just fire away.
In turret ship it has to be in range, but not too close to get under tracking, AND your own ship has to move slow enough in relation to target too. For that, you get the trait of being able to hit incoming or running interceptor if he is stupid or clumsy enough to take straight line away from you.
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Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Would not be a problem if the main weapon type of a whole race is missiles.
Caldari have turret ships.
I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post. |
Fetchme
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:51:00 -
[9]
Yakia,
intersting way of looking at it,
i dont think adding a gang m8t is a good example.
By that example you could just add a huggin and make the target stand still and give him a HUGE SIG.
But if we just look at 1 vs 1 nano vs turret, or nano vs missle.
you will need a BAD ASS nano to fully escape missle's, and the dmg for the hittable nano's can be upgraded a target painter.
The turret will hit nice, IF it hits, and here the dmg can be upgraded by a tracking computer.
and unless the nano is REALLY going fast, every missle will it.
A nano that orbits is very hard to hit for a turret ship, and only the vaga mabey can fully outrun missle's, but cannot fire itself at full speed, since it uses turrent thus, has to slow down, and be open for dmg again.
or am i wrong?
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Thenoran
Border Rim Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Missiles don't do any damage on fast going ships (aka nanos), so turrets shouldn't be able to hit them either, for the sake of balance.
Missile damage is reduced by target size and speed, turret damage is reduced by target size and transversal velocity.
Transversal velocity doesn't play a big role when the target is far away (what currently is the case with the latest nano-tactics), so they don't understand why missile users are upset about nano setups.
Since missiles do less damage in general, it's not unbalanced to add a velocity-based damage reduction factor for turret ships, so that the turret damage is affected by target size, target speed and trasversal velocity.
Then i want to see how many of the forum warriors who say nanos are not a problem, will suddenly change their minds, after they tried to catch a nano and get in webifier range, doing 0.2 damage with their main weapon system while constantly being shot at by the whole speed-fitted enemy gang
Yeh lets make nano's invincible and remove one of the good points of getting a gunboat over a missileboat...not!
Turrets cant hit anything orbiting them, especially at 6km/s, if you heading dead at them you are doing something wrong. Just because Weapon A cant hit you doesn't mean Weapon B shouldn't hit you either, its one of the pros of using a gunboat.
Missiles may or may not do less damage overall on paper, but turrets miss a lot or they get low-damage shots as well as that close range turrets generally have far worse ranges then missiles, and again, they would miss alot, especially when firing in falloff.
There is no need to 'balance' turrets (if anything they should be given improvements in tracking and optimal) because they don't have to be balanced against missiles, its a choice of different weapons.
Its like saying Caldari ships shouldn't have good shield tanks because Amarr and Gallente armor tank.
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Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Fetchme
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
Ever heard of tracking.
You seem to thickheaded to find it youself so I'll just dig it up for you
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=806494&page=1#25
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=806494&page=3#73
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EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age
The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist. |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Belatu Cadro
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Fetchme
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
Ever heard of tracking.
Tracking is an issue if the ship orbits you, but then you or one of your gangmates who is close by could use a neut, problem solved. ...
well, it seems you've just answered your own question there. please explain how this will not work for missiles.
I said IF they orbit, which they usually don't do, at least those who i met so far, they stay at range, THATS WHY tracking isn't really an issue.
To sum it up:
nanos orbit: turrets = fine (because of neuts/web), missiles = fine (neuts/web)
nanos stay at distance: turrets = fine (no tracking issue), missiles = no damage (because no neuts/web = high velocity of nano ship = no missile damage).
Quote:
All you need to make sure in missile ship is that your target is hittable (speed/size) and in range. Then you just fire away.
If this were possible, hardly anyone would complain. But even our precision missiles (except the light precisions, which then have other issues), can't do the trick, although they are meant to catch small/fast ships and have a damage penalty + negative side effect for that reason.
If we had heavy missiles with current t1 heavy missiles' range and an explosion velocity of 3-4k, things would be fine. So you can't make the missiles hit it, and the target itself is out of modules that would make it hittable.
If you try to catch the nano-ships with a fast inty which has web/scram, it will be popped by guns while approaching (since they don't have any velocity-based damage reduction, while the inty is approaching (=no traversal vel. issue) and has a big sig radius due mwd).
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Tippia
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Fetchme
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
Ever heard of tracking.
Yes I do.
Ever heard of sig radius penanlty from MWDs?
Ever heard of the importance of sig radius to determine tracking bonus to guns?
Ever heard of the difference between 6kps straight-line speed and the effective orbit speed?
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Jacksie021
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:20:00 -
[14]
If you want to hit a nano with missiles, just use a cerberus with assault launchers and Light precision missiles. problem solved
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FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kelron Queldine
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Would not be a problem if the main weapon type of a whole race is missiles.
Caldari have turret ships.
And most have opitmal bonuses only, I think only harpy and eagle have damage bonus in addition and only cormorant has tracking bonus.
Why missiles are worse then turrets:
1)explosion velocity is nearly always much lower then missile velocity(wtf? missile catches target, instantaneously stops and only then explodes?)
1.1)only on precision lights explosion can be sufficient to decently hit nanoships (can only dream of popping ceptors before they're webbed)
1.2)precision heavies are useless
2)explosion velocity cannot be upgraded by modules like turret tracking - and turrets have 2 mods, and scripts
2.1)missile range(speed or flighttime) cannot be upgraded by modules too btw
3) damage is delayed and can be destroyed by defenders/smartie, but anyway it's a normal price for not caring about direction enemy headed relatively to you.
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Belatu Cadro
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Fetchme
m8t, you really think a turret can hit a ship going 6k a sec?
Ever heard of tracking.
Yes I do.
Ever heard of sig radius penanlty from MWDs?
Ever heard of the importance of sig radius to determine tracking bonus to guns?
Ever heard of the difference between 6kps straight-line speed and the effective orbit speed?
Have you ever used a turret, thay move at a certain speed, if the ship is orbitting fast enough it will never get hit, no matter how big the sig radius is. yes the computer can track the ship, but if it can't move the turret into position fast enough that's utterly useless. Nano pilots who fly in a straight line die. period. nano pilots never fly straight if they do they're as bad as the lot complaining about nano's
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FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Fetchme
and unless the nano is REALLY going fast, every missle will it.
A nano that orbits is very hard to hit for a turret ship, and only the vaga mabey can fully outrun missle's, but cannot fire itself at full speed, since it uses turrent thus, has to slow down, and be open for dmg again.
or am i wrong?
Wrong, at 4.5 km/s you're immune to any missile but precision light even if the one shooting you has all lvl 5 skills, 5% explosion velocity implant, and ship rigged with T2 explosion velocity rigs. And 4.5km/s is not a badass nano by a long shot.
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Belatu Cadro
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Belatu Cadro on 26/06/2008 11:32:14
Originally by: FlameGlow
...
2)explosion velocity cannot be upgraded by modules like turret tracking - and turrets have 2 mods, and scripts
...
Originally by: FlameGlow
...
Wrong, at 4.5 km/s you're immune to any missile but precision light even if the one shooting you has all lvl 5 skills, 5% explosion velocity implant, and ship rigged with T2 explosion velocity rigs...
make up your mind.
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General StarScream
Empyrean Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:32:00 -
[19]
ok but give missiles Trans tracking as well then.
Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Belatu Cadro
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: General StarScream
ok but give missiles Trans tracking as well then.
Or maybe an agility value.
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Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:37:00 -
[21]
In before Mitnal.
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FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:41:00 -
[22]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 26/06/2008 11:45:11
Originally by: Belatu Cadro
Edited by: Belatu Cadro on 26/06/2008 11:32:14
Originally by: FlameGlow
...
2)explosion velocity cannot be upgraded by modules like turret tracking - and turrets have 2 mods, and scripts
...
Originally by: FlameGlow
...
Wrong, at 4.5 km/s you're immune to any missile but precision light even if the one shooting you has all lvl 5 skills, 5% explosion velocity implant, and ship rigged with T2 explosion velocity rigs...
make up your mind.
"rig" not equals to "module"
Turrets have range and tracking rigs AND modules ; missiles have ONLY rigs
Edit: oh yeah, and implants
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Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Kelron Queldine
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Would not be a problem if the main weapon type of a whole race is missiles.
Caldari have turret ships.
And most have opitmal bonuses only, I think only harpy and eagle have damage bonus in addition and only cormorant has tracking bonus.
Then that would be ideal, for the purposes of refuting the OP's whine. He's complaining about (minimally tanked) nanoships at long range where tracking isn't an issue.
I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post. |
Mioelnir
Meltd0wn
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:47:00 -
[24]
Just want to throw in, i always laugh so hard at these topics.
When I started EVE, all the caldari whined at the nighthawks explosion velocity bonus and how useless it is because noone needs explosion velocity. And now, they whine that their explosion velocity is too low. It's just so hilarious.
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