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voetius
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Posted - 2008.06.27 05:03:00 -
[1]
I should be getting a Raven in the next day or so, currently flying a Drake. There are a couple of categories of missiles that I haven't used before and was hoping you ppl can give some practical advice on them.
I have a lot of skills in missiles compared to other skill areas.
Heavy Missiles- these I use all the time in the Drake. Nice range and damage, good for killing small ships up to battlecruiser and battleship.
Cruise Missiles - from what I have read on the ships forum I should be using these in the Raven and killing the smaller ships with my Drones
Torpedo & Heavy Assault - these I don't really know anything more than the description in the item database.
Under what circumstances would I want to use Torps or Heavy Assault and am I right about Cruise?
cheers
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Elaine Celeste
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Posted - 2008.06.27 05:11:00 -
[2]
Missiles are very much like any other weapon type. There's long range and short range missiles.
Standards missiles and rockets. Heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles. Cruise missiles and torpedoes. You're best off fitting cruise missiles to a raven. A navy raven may be able to fit torp launchers with good skills, but they have very short range unless you go for missile range rigs+implants. The golem is an EXCELLENT torp platform, and you can go up to 60k something range with the best implants+rigs. The thing is, a navy raven's rank is only 'meh' with missile range rigs, whereas a golem's tank is still great even with missile range rigs, so torps are definitely either a golem pve thing or a raven pvp weapon 99% of the time.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.27 05:16:00 -
[3]
Missles suck, caldari suck! train Gallente or Minmatar and go Yarrr!!!
You're not afraid of the dark, are you? |
voetius
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Posted - 2008.06.27 05:24:00 -
[4]
ty for the replies Elaine and Surfin. I'll stick to the Cruise for now then.
BTW - I should have asked about Seige Launchers - I've read that these are good for taking out Battleships but not good for small ships.
Surfin - I'm concentrating on Caldari atm as that is where my skills are but I have trained Minny Frigate to level 4 as my alt has a Rifter and I like it. I will carry on training Minny ships but that is a secondary priority at the moment. In a few weeks or months I'll carry on cross-training to Minny and possibly try the Agony Unleashed PvP course if it is still running.
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F'nog
Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.27 06:33:00 -
[5]
Originally by: voetius
BTW - I should have asked about Seige Launchers - I've read that these are good for taking out Battleships but not good for small ships.
This is because of what they use. All missile launchers are now limited to what they can fire (it wasn't always so). All launcher can load defenders, and maybe rockets, but beyond that they're limited to what they can fire.
Siege Launchers can use torpedoes, which are only effective against big targets, cruiser (passably) and larger.
Cruise Launchers hold cruise, obviously.
It's just like the other non-cap ships' launchers, bar the Assault Launchers, which are cruiser-sized light missile launchers.
Thus:
BS: Long range - Cruise; Short Range - Siege Cruiser/BC: LR - Heavy; SR - Heavy Assault Frigs/Destroyers: LR - Standard; SR - Rocket |
Ralara
Caldari Vivicide
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Posted - 2008.06.27 10:39:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ralara on 27/06/2008 10:41:13
Originally by: voetius
I should be getting a Raven in the next day or so, currently flying a Drake. There are a couple of categories of missiles that I haven't used before and was hoping you ppl can give some practical advice on them.
I have a lot of skills in missiles compared to other skill areas.
Heavy Missiles- these I use all the time in the Drake. Nice range and damage, good for killing small ships up to battlecruiser and battleship.
Cruise Missiles - from what I have read on the ships forum I should be using these in the Raven and killing the smaller ships with my Drones
Torpedo & Heavy Assault - these I don't really know anything more than the description in the item database.
Under what circumstances would I want to use Torps or Heavy Assault and am I right about Cruise?
cheers
Depends on what you're doing with your raven - Ratting or Missions.
For ratting in 0.0 I'd recommend a MWD raven with Torpedoes as you'll kill the rats faster (plus you can get to the loot and salvage faster). Max range of about 30 km or so.
For missions, I'd recommend using Cruise missiles - they have longer range and some rats like to hang out at 50km from your ship, torpedoes wont hit these at all.
Heavy Assault Missiles are the torpedo version of Heavy missiles - more damage, less range. You'd use these on your Drake, not on a Raven, they're Cruiser class weapons.
You can get away with torpedoes if you use Tech 2 ones - Javelin Torpedoes - which have slightly more range than normal torps, but less damage and are more expensive. Combined with some flight time or missile speed rigs and you can get them out to 50 or 60km - more than enough for mission rats, but this will likely cause problems with CPU, fitting etc, plus they slow your ship down to about 100 m/s. They do, however, offer more dps than cruise missiles.
Up to you. --
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: voetius
BTW - I should have asked about Seige Launchers - I've read that these are good for taking out Battleships but not good for small ships.
Siege Launchers can use torpedoes, which are only effective against big targets, cruiser (passably) and larger.
To expand on this, the reason why a torpedo is not very effective against smaller targets is because of its Explosion Radius attribute, which is 450m for a standard torpedo. Thus it will only do full damage against targets of this radius or larger - since even battleships have a nominal radius of 400m, you'll be losing a fair amount of damage against anything smaller. Check out the Missile guide for full details, but basically the damage loss is proportional to how much smaller the target is than the explosion radius. A cruiser with a 112m signature radius, for example, with take just 25% of the torpedo's damage.
Cruise missiles by contrast have a smaller explosion radius to start with (300m), and additionally benefits from the Guided Missile Precision skill, which can take its effective explosion radius down to 225m (torpedoes are unguided and thus unaffected by this skill). At this point a cruise missile has half the explosion radius of a torpedo and thus the damage loss will be half as great.
Since the benefit of torpedoes is greater damage potential offset by a much shorter range, you can see that when firing against targets smaller than about 250m the torpedoes lose twice as much damage compared to cruise missiles, and thus unless they do twice as much raw damage (which they don't) then the cruises will deliver more damage to the target in this sitation, as well as having the utility of longer range. Target painters can help this to some extent, by increasing the target's signature radius (though they help the cruises just as much as the torps until the target is painted to over 225m, meaning that against most targets the cruises are still the better choice).
Torps are quite clearly superior against battleships though, especially painted battleships where they suffer no damage loss.
In practice the main problem with torpedoes isn't the damage reduction against smaller targets (cruisers with their low hitpoints still die well enough even if cruises would hit harder, and the drones finish off frigs and destryoers very easily) - it's the range reduction. For some missions (e.g. Damsel in Distress) you know everything is going to be close, and you can fit your weapons accordingly. But most missions pit you against ships that are a long way away, and having a range of 30km or so on your primary weapon is not the way to do it. It's the same reason that turret users don't use autocannons, blasters or pulse lasers as the default option - the ability to hit at range is usually more important than the ability to put out a higher raw damage.
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voetius
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Posted - 2008.06.27 14:53:00 -
[8]
Edited by: voetius on 27/06/2008 14:53:46 Gartel - thanks for taking the time to explain anout signature radius. This helps me understand the answer to a question I placed in the skills forum today about what hardwirings to spend my loyalty points on and I was advised that for slot 8 a Deadeye ZMA1000/100/10 (which reduces signature radius) might be more useful than a Gnome KXA2000/1000/500 which reduces capacitor for shield emission systems.
I have trained Cruise and Guided Missile Precision to 3 before even training for a Raven.
cheers.
Edit: typo
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Elaine Celeste
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Posted - 2008.06.27 15:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: voetius Edited by: voetius on 27/06/2008 14:53:46 Gartel - thanks for taking the time to explain anout signature radius. This helps me understand the answer to a question I placed in the skills forum today about what hardwirings to spend my loyalty points on and I was advised that for slot 8 a Deadeye ZMA1000/100/10 (which reduces signature radius) might be more useful than a Gnome KXA2000/1000/500 which reduces capacitor for shield emission systems.
I have trained Cruise and Guided Missile Precision to 3 before even training for a Raven.
cheers.
Edit: typo
5% is nothing... it'll increase damage by a tiny bit on ships cruiser-sized and smaller when using cruise missiles. Go for the 5% cruise missile damage implant and you'll do 5% more damage to every ship. There's far better implants than the ZMA 1000.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.27 16:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Elaine Celeste
Originally by: voetius This helps me understand the answer to a question I placed in the skills forum today about what hardwirings to spend my loyalty points on and I was advised that for slot 8 a Deadeye ZMA1000/100/10 (which reduces signature radius) might be more useful than a Gnome KXA2000/1000/500 which reduces capacitor for shield emission systems.
I have trained Cruise and Guided Missile Precision to 3 before even training for a Raven.
5% is nothing... it'll increase damage by a tiny bit on ships cruiser-sized and smaller when using cruise missiles. Go for the 5% cruise missile damage implant and you'll do 5% more damage to every ship. There's far better implants than the ZMA 1000.
Yeah, but that's not a slot 8 implant. For a Raven, you might possibly get some good mileage out of the 'Squire' CC2/CC4/CC8 series, which increases your capacitor size (and thus recharge rate). However, I can see why you were given the alternative advice as once your tank is adequate for the mission you're facing, there is absolutely no benefit to increasing it further. While damage on the other hand can reduce your completion times and thus increase your ISK/hour. I suppose that's something to think about too, especially with such a hefty investment (equivalent to spending over 100m ISK) - even if the extra 5% cap would help you now, you don't want to find out that a month down the line your skills mean that you can run the tank without the implant, which is now effectively useless.
The only other slot 8 implant I can see being potentially useful is the Gypsy KQBs which increase targeting range. Since on a Raven your missile range is likely to be much higher than your targeting range, this can help you start firing a little bit earlier. But thinking about it, the sig radius implant will be useful in a much wider variety of situation so is almost certainly the best implant for that slot.
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voetius
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Posted - 2008.06.27 21:35:00 -
[11]
as Gartel says - I already have the slot 6 implant booked for Snapshot ZMU2000/1000/500 - boost cruise missile skill.
I only have about 50k loyalty points to spend (I've been busy today) so I tried to pick the best hardwirings for all slots 6 to 10.
ty for all the advice.
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