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Vorenius Jax
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.06.27 07:25:00 -
[1]
I hate how neatly it is to navigate around New Eden.
Warp from Point A, to Point B or just go to Point C via cynofield/jumpbridge/whatever. Traveling in-between systems is the same as traveling within systems.
It's sterile and congruent, but worse it's uniformly IDENTICAL.
Simply put, space in EVE lacks character.
If you're a PVPer you can expect only to have engagements on stargates, asteroid belts, stations and POS. If you're into PVE you can expect engagements to happen exclusively in deadspace or at belts if you rat.
How interesting would it be if there were astronomical anomalies that required you to navigate around to reach stargates? Instead of flying straight through objects.
Or gravitational wells that required you to clear them before being able to initiate warp?
How much variety would be instantly added to 0.0 and PVEing in Empire if the dynamics of the universe were a bit less uniform and constant?
I know freighter captains would kill me, but even then it might be a fun change of pace to have a slightly sorter route that required navigating around a 300-500 click obstacle with some of your corp mates backing you up against pirates.
A market economy would dictate that you increase the rewards for more dangerous routes!
But really, the warpdrive makes life a little too bland. It's time to spice space up!
Vorenious Jax
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Inertial
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.06.27 07:27:00 -
[2]
I agree, navigation in eve seems a little too bland.
we are recruiting!
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Dihania
Gallente Mucho Dolor
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Posted - 2008.06.27 07:33:00 -
[3]
indeed. but there is a con to it: it will make travel take more time... which sucks far worse. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs. |
Admiral Pelleon
Caldari White Shadow Imperium
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Posted - 2008.06.27 07:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dihania indeed. but there is a con to it: it will make travel take more time... which sucks far worse.
Actually... It could make it much harder for power blocks to control entire regions alone, they'd have people taking residence in lots of systems and make it easier for the average corp to secure a system or two in 0.0. ________
Originally by: Tarminic I believe your mother should have re-rolled her birth control.
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Rakaim
Gallente Rising Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.27 07:49:00 -
[5]
Wow great idea! I would actually like to see this added. I was actually just thinking about this the other day while having my Thorax getting the crap lasered out of it and I looked at the stargate 35km away. I thought to myself - How come I always die in THIS backdrop - I would honestly like to die by like a tornado cloud like the one I saw in an old trailer, "Eve Never Fades" I think it was.
Either way the message stands strong. Navigation needs variety.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.06.27 09:08:00 -
[6]
Click my sig for an alternative idea. Feel free to add comments, suggestions, flames, whatever. :)
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.27 09:14:00 -
[7]
One time my gang leader warped the gang.. but I ended up near some planet by myslef... I was drunk and scared
You're not afraid of the dark, are you? |
Zinras
Caldari Order of draugr
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Posted - 2008.06.27 09:23:00 -
[8]
While I agree travelling in EVE isn't the most exciting thing ever, there are some issues with your suggestions:
1) Travel time. If you think it takes long to jump 30 times now, just wait until 15 of those system have object X you have to pass through at normal speed. The bigger the ship, the longer it takes.
2) It would be much, much easier to camp a system where you have some celestial object/gravity well that pulls your ship out of warp for X kilometres. No longer do you have to worry about WTZ or having people in several systems. Simply park your ships at the object and have a scout on each gate in the system itself. You don't even need bubbles anymore, unless you really want to be sure to catch a target, since it'll effectively be a big "no warp" zone.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale *moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
CCP's best friend |
Sidus Isaacs
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Posted - 2008.06.27 09:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vorenius Jax
It's sterile and congruent, but worse it's uniformly IDENTICAL.
On the edge, you could say the same about real space, its mostly empty :P
Tho a few "stat trekish" things to spicen up could be entertaining, but also unbalacning on some points.
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Vorenius Jax
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.06.27 10:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Zinras 1) Travel time. If you think it takes long to jump 30 times now, just wait until 15 of those system have object X you have to pass through at normal speed. The bigger the ship, the longer it takes.
I would not advocate dumping 10 "navigation obstacles" in every system and bog the whole universe down.
Rather, I propose doing so more strategically [read: sparingly] so that experience navigators know the in's and out's of a system so that they can [sometimes] choose to navigate around it at the cost of more waypoints.
Originally by: Zinras 2) It would be much, much easier to camp a system where you have some celestial object/gravity well that pulls your ship out of warp for X kilometres. No longer do you have to worry about WTZ or having people in several systems. Simply park your ships at the object and have a scout on each gate in the system itself. You don't even need bubbles anymore, unless you really want to be sure to catch a target, since it'll effectively be a big "no warp" zone.
It would not be easier. It would be extremely different.
Space is wonderfully three dimensional. The ability to out maneuver would be more present if battle took place at a semi-random transitory point in space rather than a fixed point, eg stargates. Those nasty battleship blobs would take forever to microwarp to your location. Nano-gangs could be dealt with by escorts fitted with neuts and the like.
Solo players would have a multitude of strategies at their fingertips: from proto-cloaking devices, microwarping, or taking a much longer way at the edge of sensor range (possible expansion on the role sig radiuses' play) , and, yes, even retreating.
Think about how cool it would be to suddenly detect a gang of 15 ships bearing several hundred clicks away instead of jumping through a gate and letting out an expletive.
It would add a real dimension of strategy were suddenly players on both sides have to DECIDE instead of merely react.
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Adago Vilon
Minmatar Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2008.06.27 10:05:00 -
[11]
This idea would certainly spice things up, but would have far too great an impact on trade and the whole economy if implemented across the board.
It is an interesting idea (but i won't say original), but to be constructive I'll suggest a couple of ideas to develop the basic suggestion:
1. Apply these anomalies to 0.0 and to a lesser extent to low sec. This will make travel a little more hazardous down less trodden paths.
2. Make the systems the anomalies appear in random and vary them each downtime. To make sure certain systems don't just become camping hot spots.
3. The addition of a 'navigation sensor strength' attribute to ships that determines ships' ability to warp to zero of a gate in the presence of an anomaly. Whereby haulers and larger ships have intrinsically superior ability to navigate in the presence of anomalies than inties and smaller ships. Perhaps make the deviation a function of warp distance so while inties can warp at 4 times the speed of other ships, over long distances they may end up further away.
Although this could make things interesting, fundamentally it is not going to result in more fights away from gates, stations or belts because ultimately it takes too long to scan or chase things down in space.
Please de-alphabetise local! Sort it by time spent in local. I don't want to be at the top of local anymore. Ta!
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Doc Extropy
Gallente Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.06.27 10:31:00 -
[12]
Hidden stargates you have to scan down and hack afterwards. That would be cool. Or wormholes which bring you into interesting star systems off the map.
Then more artifacts and stuff... we need to play some serious space exploration not only as an addition but as an essential part of the game. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Brachis
Caldari Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
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Posted - 2008.06.27 11:01:00 -
[13]
Rather than making normal travel difficult, I think that a better solution would be to add flavor to combat zones which provide a benefit to a force engaging in them. For example, having moons that, in addition to having mineral composition, have anomalies within the POS-setup area which change the terms of engagement.
Another good example are the new installations introduced in the faction warfare of Empyrean Age. If there were tactical installations in lowsec and 0.0 which could have real benefit towards player Alliances to attack and/or defend, and create strange anomalies within those, it could improve the overall interest in combat.
I don't think that normal everyday travel needs to be impeded, but the combat environments could do with some variety.
- "I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor." |
Carnun Blodeuwedd
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Posted - 2008.06.27 11:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Brachis Rather than making normal travel difficult, I think that a better solution would be to add flavor to combat zones which provide a benefit to a force engaging in them. For example, having moons that, in addition to having mineral composition, have anomalies within the POS-setup area which change the terms of engagement.
Another good example are the new installations introduced in the faction warfare of Empyrean Age. If there were tactical installations in lowsec and 0.0 which could have real benefit towards player Alliances to attack and/or defend, and create strange anomalies within those, it could improve the overall interest in combat.
I don't think that normal everyday travel needs to be impeded, but the combat environments could do with some variety.
This. The only feasible solution I can see is to add more types of location and more reasons to go to the existing ones. There are how many planets in EVE? And what reason does a player have to go to one? They don't even make very good safe spots.
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Klavis lychnuchus
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Posted - 2008.06.27 11:50:00 -
[15]
I wholeheartedly agree with the OPs argument here and have long wanted to see eve in a far more dynamic environment.
The trouble is with the current mechanics, object to object travel rather limits the options. Forcing the players to stop at a myriad of obstacles in space is not in any way advisable or desirable. As has already been expressed. Which only leaves optional 'Tactical Environments' in Eve which CCP have already been looking into but was pretty much shelved.
The reason this idea has failed so far is that players need a reason to go there in the first place and how to do this without making them mandatory or ISK faucets, is a nigh on impossible task. ...Given current mechanics of course.
Ironically enough, by adding some realism (in as much as sci-fi can be) this is something I believe can help, despite the fact that CCP has resisted making any such change in the past. What precisely I mean by this is by current means, when you initiate warp you then zip through every solid object on the way to your destination.
What is needed then, is a more interactive way of warping your craft and in order not increase the time warping and a tweak to how fast ships travel through warp in general. Players could then still warp to an object in space or if they so choose have a manual way of optimizing their warp path. Give players the option to warp nowhere in particular easily, make scanning more accessible by making probe launcher req's a little kinder, plus also give pursuers a means to chase warping craft and the whole process suddenly becomes much, much more dynamic and space is no longer as 2 dimensional as it currently stands!
It's important too that everyday travel doesn't become overly complicated and pilots should still be able to select and warp point to point as they do now in a couple of clicks.
I could go into this and detail at a much greater level but I suspect Eves at it's fundamental level is simply just not capable of such things anyway... but what can you expect of a hodgepodge of scripting languages anyway.
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Vorenius Jax
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.06.27 11:50:00 -
[16]
The problem with the "Don't make travel harder for logistics and those not wanting combat" argument is that you guys have it really easy ù especially in high sec with no wardecs.
Just a couple of mouse clicks and you're through an ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM in a blink of the eye.
Again, not suggesting that EVERY system has to be bogged down with something that requires human interaction beyond two mouse clicks and detours filled with crazy hostile rats or PVPers, but the game would be far more rewarding from a content perspective if there was less...automation and more opportunities to actually pilot.
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Zinras
Caldari Order of draugr
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vorenius Jax
Originally by: Zinras 1) Travel time. If you think it takes long to jump 30 times now, just wait until 15 of those system have object X you have to pass through at normal speed. The bigger the ship, the longer it takes.
I would not advocate dumping 10 "navigation obstacles" in every system and bog the whole universe down.
Rather, I propose doing so more strategically [read: sparingly] so that experience navigators know the in's and out's of a system so that they can [sometimes] choose to navigate around it at the cost of more waypoints.
Originally by: Zinras 2) It would be much, much easier to camp a system where you have some celestial object/gravity well that pulls your ship out of warp for X kilometres. No longer do you have to worry about WTZ or having people in several systems. Simply park your ships at the object and have a scout on each gate in the system itself. You don't even need bubbles anymore, unless you really want to be sure to catch a target, since it'll effectively be a big "no warp" zone.
It would not be easier. It would be extremely different.
Space is wonderfully three dimensional. The ability to out maneuver would be more present if battle took place at a semi-random transitory point in space rather than a fixed point, eg stargates. Those nasty battleship blobs would take forever to microwarp to your location. Nano-gangs could be dealt with by escorts fitted with neuts and the like.
Solo players would have a multitude of strategies at their fingertips: from proto-cloaking devices, microwarping, or taking a much longer way at the edge of sensor range (possible expansion on the role sig radiuses' play) , and, yes, even retreating.
Think about how cool it would be to suddenly detect a gang of 15 ships bearing several hundred clicks away instead of jumping through a gate and letting out an expletive.
It would add a real dimension of strategy were suddenly players on both sides have to DECIDE instead of merely react.
You forget that no matter what you do, there must be an entry and exit point to any zone. This will be camped and there's no way around it. If you make it so you can warp to any range in any system, combat in EVE will cease to exist, as everyone will warp to some variation of X.73635 AU. 1 AU = 150 million km, so there's too many random spots to warp to.
Likewise, a random encounter system means that virtually all risk is removed from the game. Unless everyone warps to the same area, it is impossible to catch a person warping if you don't bring an entire 0.0 alliance into a system to cover all the random instances. Also, I suspect the system will be exploited like crazy anyway. If the battle area is random but only has a few possible options, any self respecting corp/alliance will simply warp X gangs containing various ships around until all of them land in their own little combat/navigation bubble and camp those.
EVE already contains the option to do what you suggest but since people are lazy, they will do whatever they can to maximize gain with as little work as possible. This results in gate camps, station camps and whatever else is out there. In a totally free space environment, people would instead quickly figure out at what distance they'd need to be at to target/catch new arrivals. It will merely push the gate camp from directly on top of it, to X km away from it. Fleets would likely contain lots and lots of frigs/other fast ships with webs/scrams combined with a few close up combat ships and a larger amount of BS/BC with sniper setups further away.
After all, why chase after an animal with a spear when you can shoot it from 100 metres with a lethal and virtually instantaneous hit?
Originally by: CCP Greyscale *moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*
CCP's best friend |
Klavis lychnuchus
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Vorenius Jax Edited by: Vorenius Jax on 27/06/2008 11:56:44
Again, not suggesting that EVERY system has to be bogged down with something that requires human interaction beyond two mouse clicks and detours filled with crazy hostile rats or PVPers, but the game would be far more rewarding from a content perspective if there was less...automation and more opportunities to actually pilot.
I am totally agreeing with you here friend. It should/must be an option to manually adjust your warp path... I want this to happen. And I want it so bad I can taste it.
I just don't think they can.
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FlameGlow
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:09:00 -
[19]
Space Dragons! Giant swarms of huge space-living dragons in each system, randomly snatching ships out of warp and eating them whole! That will make navigation exciting for sure!
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Acedias
Atropos Asylum
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:13:00 -
[20]
I vote its changed so that we have to manually work out and enter warp calculations and co ordinates, followed by a legnthy checklist of things to ensure everything is working properly before you warp to your doom. For every warp.
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Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:22:00 -
[21]
Originally by: FlameGlow Space Dragons! Giant swarms of huge space-living dragons in each system, randomly snatching ships out of warp and eating them whole! That will make navigation exciting for sure!
Together with the Space Whales idea that's already been suggested, this would be the best add-on to EVE, ever!
Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
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Shgoratchx
Minmatar Shgoratchx Transorbital
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Zinras Travel time. If you think it takes long to jump 30 times now, just wait until 15 of those system have object X you have to pass through at normal speed. The bigger the ship, the longer it takes.
I think the travel time argument is looked at in the wrong way.
I personally would have loved the Eve galaxy to be abosultey gigantic, with it taking MANY HOURS to travel from from side to the other. And before anyone says WTF! let me explain a little further...
If the eve galaxy had been designed on a truly astronomical scale to start with, with travel between the most distant points taking a lot of time, how would the political world look today, 5 years later?
We'd have truly isolated pockets of humanity, holding their own space that is distinct and seperate from everyone else. Todays eve is a mis-match of intermixed empire, low sec, and alliance territory all squeezed into a very small area. There are no real boundaries. Everywhere is literally just minutes away from everywhere else (if you use a fast ship ofc).
But if the galaxy was a true galaxy, we'd have people forming their own nation states out beyond the frontiers of low-sec space, far away from the core empire worlds - and by far I mean many many hours, or even days! And if these areas were unique in the fact that they had certain resources in abundance compared to other areas that have their own unique resources, trade agreements and even trade-runs between each area of the galaxy would actually mean something, have purpose, and be an adventure in itself. Exploration would be a profession on its own with people dedicated to spending weeks out in deep space - cut off from humanity out exploring and finding new areas to exploit, new never before seen items, space anomolies, even scientific research and surveying new worlds.
A larger galaxy, with longer travel times, and even navigatable space anomolies to contend with along the way, would have brought a whole new immersion factor to the game. We'd still have clusters of people all over the place, so interaction, wars, and PvP encounters wouldn't change too much - they'd just be more localized and have less of a global impact.
Its too late now though. A change on this scale would never be welcomed by the masses. CCP missed the boat on this imho, the Eve galaxy should have been much much bigger and MORE difficult to navigate/explore than the tiny over-crowded one its evolved into 5 years down the line. I can understand them (CCP) wanting to keep everything compact at the beginning since the playerbase was only a few thousand back then and player interaction was vital for the games growth, but I can't help feeling that the game as a whole (immersion-wise) lost a chance to be something more epic in scale.
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Klavis lychnuchus
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zinras
You forget that no matter what you do, there must be an entry and exit point to any zone. This will be camped and there's no way around it. If you make it so you can warp to any range in any system, combat in EVE will cease to exist, as everyone will warp to some variation of X.73635 AU. 1 AU = 150 million km, so there's too many random spots to warp to.
This is indeed true,and us such it leads me to actually expand on my idea to take this into account.
As I have already said.. pilots should also have the ability to chase warping ships if they are in situ at the time of escape. I see the manual warp system as a mini local system. Something you would want as a a mini tactical/local/scanning/navigation interface. I see the initial stage of manual warp with the pilot being presented by a short line with a terminator. Move this line near a gravity well (planet/gate/beacon?) and the line will stretch. in order to get a full warp path this line will have to pass over several interstellar objects to get it to stretch that far. Deep space being inherently harder to get to as the line will shorten the further away from gravity influences it gets. Anchor the line as you stretch between critical points in the route with a click, use the right mouse button to adjust depth, etc.
As for setting a point to nowhere goes this is why I suggested scan probe launchers be made more accessible via the reqs to make the scan prober role more reasonable for different ship choices for casual/small gangs. The dedicated ships are already more than good enough to justify their inclusion in any fleet anyhow and would be more popular by dint of a far more active role.
Speed up the warp time in general for all ships by some factor and the extended warp distance then starts to favour needing more people in an interception roles making room for nubs in frigs to become more useful in a gang anywhere.
Make gravity wells a weak point in the warp path where interdiction measures can be used to tactical effect and bringing CCPs tactical environment initiative back will have far more relevance and usefulness as the arena will now be dynamic enough to use them.
Originally by: Zinras EVE already contains the option to do what you suggest
No, no it doesn't. If you think so, you are completely missing the point here. The point is having a more dynamic/interesting environment where choices exist that can make your time more rewarding and or punishing even.
Originally by: Zinras After all, why chase after an animal with a spear when you can shoot it from 100 metres with a lethal and virtually instantaneous hit?
Because it's much more fun is why
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Troezar
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:50:00 -
[24]
It was much bigger and harder to travel across then the super highways were introduced then the links between 0.0 regions. Add clone jumping in and you have Eve today where you don't have such a local population as it is easy and fast to get to pretty much anywhere.
Give me a more "localised" Eve with larger areas to fight in rather than only going point to point. Where would your terrestrial MMO's be if you could only fight in a handful of spots in each region?
Eve has a lot of space but what's the point if it isn't being used for anything, it certainly doesn't feel vast as you can be anywhere very quickly...
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Klavis lychnuchus
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Posted - 2008.06.27 12:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Acedias I vote its changed so that we have to manually work out and enter warp calculations and co ordinates, followed by a legnthy checklist of things to ensure everything is working properly before you warp to your doom. For every warp.
Lol... Nice!
Although in the middle of a fight this might not be quite so much fun :/
Yeah, I caught the sarcasm
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Shintai
Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:00:00 -
[26]
One thing I really hate is when we fly through stations and planets/moons/stars.
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Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:03:00 -
[27]
Nice idea. Could make single systems big rather than the universe. It would also make it close to impossible to transport low end minerals from high sec to 0.0.
A good thing imo :)
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Confuzer
Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:04:00 -
[28]
A system where the local population info has been damaged and so local would seem empty
That would truly be exploration and surprise... ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Divad Ginleek
Gallente Gateway Industries House of Mercury
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:07:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Divad Ginleek on 27/06/2008 13:08:10 Want to make navigation in EVE more fun? Manual joystick controls from a*****pit. You have to line up your warp crosshairs on the center, or closest to center of your warp target as you can then hit warp. your distance from your warp target would be determined by your precision in lining up for warp. (0.00000000000001 degree over 10 AU could put you 1000 KM off the gate, etc.)
Think about how much fun it would be to zip around in a fighter, making machine gun noises like a 5 year old as you squeeze the trigger!
Also... manual docking and undocking, where you have to fly into a stations docking bay (properly), and avoid other ships which can knock you off course. And! And... limited number of docking bays in any one station, so you have to wait your turn outside like a ship in a real harbor. Situations like that are where most real world piracy happens. Why not EVE too?
Now, if pirates still have problems killing paper-thin industrials or ganking freighters. CCP should just make transport type ships automatically jettision their cargo and self distruct when any combat type ships appear on the same grid. Problem solved.
</sarcasm>
::insert witty signature here:: |
Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.06.27 13:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 27/06/2008 13:18:52 Anyone interested in this should definately read Adhunh Slavy's thread on the 'Real Space Initiative' where this idea is very thoroughly explored.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=625147
For what it's worth I firmly believe drastic improvement to the environment's mechanics is way overdue. But sadly I don't think CCP is up to the job. Just look at the evidence, they haven't even been able to work out how to code a frigging window so that it stays where you put it since they released Trinity last year. The chances of them being able to pull off an improvement of this magnitude are imo nonexistant.
edit: Bollox, I just noticed Adhunh's post in this thread before me :(
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