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Nebulous
Minmatar
The Flaming Sideburn's
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:18:00 -
[1]
This for the best part might sound like a rant, but i'm basically putting my opinion across about why I think british pubs are shutting down at the fastest rate ever.
1. Pub owners blame the smoking ban, I personally stopped smoking when the ban came into place, I knew that only being able to smoke more or less at home would be pointless (plus I did really want to stop I guess), I stopped so everyone else can at least try to or stop crying about it, pubs are now a better environment without the smoke and what pubs have lost in smokers they would have gained from non smokers going back to pubs, so in general I think this is a crap excuse.
2. Pub owners blame increased tax on beer, again this is not true. I believe people don't mind paying a bit extra if they know they are going to be able to have a nice atmosphere and some entertainment while they drink, however most pubs seem to carelessly continue to serve people that crawl to the bar barely being able to speak as well as still not doing anything about underage drinkers, you think i'm going to spend a fortune having a drink in a place full of drunk kids and morons? No! of course i'm not. Most the time when I go to a pub with my girlfriend I am driving so I have to drink cola or any other soft drinks they have available. Last week we go to what seems like a nice pub, I go up to the bar and order my girlfriend a white wine and a cola (half pint) for myself, the barmaid goes "thats ú4.80p please" straight away I think "damn that wine is expensive" so I say "how much was the wine?" then she reply's "ú1.80p" "that means the coke is ú3?" "yes sir", this in my opinion is a disgrace, pubs continue to blame tax on alcohol for declining numbers at the pubs and yet they continue to screw drivers over by charging them extortionate amounts of money for an almost untaxed soft drink, so again the whole extra tax does not effect pubs a great deal in my opinion.
3. We now live in the year 2008, yet landlords still continue to fit out their pubs to look like they were built in the victorian times, for the best part this "was" a good idea, but I think people (especially younger people 20's and 30's) are not feeling they are being catered for, this has also added to an increase in people going to what some consider "trendy" wine bars etc, i'm not saying pubs have to look like wine bars but a bit of discreet modernisation can go a long way.
I'm sorry if you are a pub landlord or know someone that owns a pub and are offended by this, but it is time the public house trade stopped blaming the government and the people for their demise and started looking in the mirror and what the true cause is.
Please discuss 
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Nebulous
Minmatar
The Flaming Sideburn's
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:18:00 -
[2]
This for the best part might sound like a rant, but i'm basically putting my opinion across about why I think british pubs are shutting down at the fastest rate ever.
1. Pub owners blame the smoking ban, I personally stopped smoking when the ban came into place, I knew that only being able to smoke more or less at home would be pointless (plus I did really want to stop I guess), I stopped so everyone else can at least try to or stop crying about it, pubs are now a better environment without the smoke and what pubs have lost in smokers they would have gained from non smokers going back to pubs, so in general I think this is a crap excuse.
2. Pub owners blame increased tax on beer, again this is not true. I believe people don't mind paying a bit extra if they know they are going to be able to have a nice atmosphere and some entertainment while they drink, however most pubs seem to carelessly continue to serve people that crawl to the bar barely being able to speak as well as still not doing anything about underage drinkers, you think i'm going to spend a fortune having a drink in a place full of drunk kids and morons? No! of course i'm not. Most the time when I go to a pub with my girlfriend I am driving so I have to drink cola or any other soft drinks they have available. Last week we go to what seems like a nice pub, I go up to the bar and order my girlfriend a white wine and a cola (half pint) for myself, the barmaid goes "thats ú4.80p please" straight away I think "damn that wine is expensive" so I say "how much was the wine?" then she reply's "ú1.80p" "that means the coke is ú3?" "yes sir", this in my opinion is a disgrace, pubs continue to blame tax on alcohol for declining numbers at the pubs and yet they continue to screw drivers over by charging them extortionate amounts of money for an almost untaxed soft drink, so again the whole extra tax does not effect pubs a great deal in my opinion.
3. We now live in the year 2008, yet landlords still continue to fit out their pubs to look like they were built in the victorian times, for the best part this "was" a good idea, but I think people (especially younger people 20's and 30's) are not feeling they are being catered for, this has also added to an increase in people going to what some consider "trendy" wine bars etc, i'm not saying pubs have to look like wine bars but a bit of discreet modernisation can go a long way.
I'm sorry if you are a pub landlord or know someone that owns a pub and are offended by this, but it is time the public house trade stopped blaming the government and the people for their demise and started looking in the mirror and what the true cause is.
Please discuss
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:19:00 -
[3]
They're called 'publicans', iirc.
San Matari Official forums |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:19:00 -
[4]
They're called 'publicans', iirc. |
ILikeTastyPie
Digital assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:27:00 -
[5]
Al Murray is angry at you 
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ILikeTastyPie
Digital assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:27:00 -
[6]
Al Murray is angry at you |
Xrak
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:46:00 -
[7]
You forgot to mention the super cheap pricing of supermarkets.
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Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.06.28 11:58:00 -
[8]
Smoking bad hasn't hurt pubs in my city, but it has seen the closing down of a couple of clubs.
Personally i like the olde world style of a "proper pub" too many damned characterless super-market pubs around already. |
Cyne Spurr
MacroIntel
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.06.28 12:53:00 -
[9]
The main challenges to pubs are.
1: Supermarkets being able to sell large amounts of alcohol cheaply.
2: Competition from Clubs who stay open longer.
3: A natural change in the drinking habits of the UK populace, you have to remember that only 30 years ago the UK pub industry was quite small and dominated by tradional ales. With the creation of cheap flights and package tours, the population discovered Lagers and different spirits which led to a huge knock on effect back home.
As for your point "3", I doubt if the decor is that big a factor.
Wine bars were meant to be the downfall of the pub back in the 80s, and they failed.
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KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2008.06.28 12:57:00 -
[10]
There are a variety of reasons many are closing down. The smoking ban has been in force a year now, and pubs that survived the winter months may be okay, but some will have lost custom. Also as you mention increased prices, this isn't necessarily a reason unto itself but if you consider how many different forms of entertainment and socialising we can choose from now, increased prices may convince some punters to spend their money elsewhere.
(As an aside, I remember an article in the Metro a while ago (yes yes, not renowned for it's quality editorial, but the point is still valid). It said that many (illegal) drugs can be had for less than the cost of a beer now. Whether or not that is true I have no idea, but if someone wants to get drunk, they can do it for less illegally. Something the treasurer ought to consider).
The style of pubs/bars you mention in 3 isn't a big factor IMO, although it does perhaps affect the crowd you typically yet. You'd get younger, more boistrous ones in Lloyds' bars f.ex and perhaps young professionals visiting the trendy bars. Don't think this is a make or break point tho.
One factor you didn't mention, is that land in the UK in general, cities in particular has been going up by crazy amounts this past decade. A landlord would make more turning his pub into flats than he would selling beer now. Sad but true. Higher rents, wages and running costs combined with points 1 & 2 you made has to have an effect.
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The TX
Gallente
Earth Inc.
Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.06.28 12:59:00 -
[11]
I agree with this thread.
You know the coke they serve in pubs etc is carbonated water and a weird sticky gel stuff that adds the color and flavour? it costs very little to make a soft drink in a pub - so any price above ú2 is probably a rip off imo.
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Xrak
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.28 13:26:00 -
[12]
 Originally by: The TX
I agree with this thread.
You know the coke they serve in pubs etc is carbonated water and a weird sticky gel stuff that adds the color and flavour? it costs very little to make a soft drink in a pub - so any price above ú2 is probably a rip off imo.
If you take that on face value then that you are foolish. The syrup they use to make the drinks is very cheap to make, but its not the pubs making the money it's the drinks companies.
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The TX
Gallente
Earth Inc.
Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.06.28 13:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Xrak
Originally by: The TX
I agree with this thread.
You know the coke they serve in pubs etc is carbonated water and a weird sticky gel stuff that adds the color and flavour? it costs very little to make a soft drink in a pub - so any price above ú2 is probably a rip off imo.
If you take that on face value then that you are foolish. The syrup they use to make the drinks is very cheap to make, but its not the pubs making the money it's the drinks companies.
Fair 'nuff, but it IS still a rip-off and a turn off. Please don't accuse me of being a fool - my point still stands - soft drinks are cheap to make and expensive to buy - same result for the consumer -> unhappiness. and Happy Cat needs his Happy.
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Xrak
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.28 13:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: The TX
it costs very little to make a soft drink in a pub
Your point doesn't stand because it's not true. The syrup is not cheap to buy, and so it doesn't cost very little to make a soft drink in a pub.
That's all I'm saying ya'know?
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The TX
Gallente
Earth Inc.
Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.06.28 13:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Xrak
Originally by: The TX
it costs very little to make a soft drink in a pub
Your point doesn't stand because it's not true. The syrup is not cheap to buy, and so it doesn't cost very little to make a soft drink in a pub.
That's all I'm saying ya'know?
ok, scrap the 'in a pub' bit. it costs very little to make a soft drink. soft drinks are overpriced.
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TimGascoigne
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Posted - 2008.06.28 13:40:00 -
[16]
Edited by: TimGascoigne on 28/06/2008 13:40:57
Originally by: Nebulous
3. We now live in the year 2008, yet landlords still continue to fit out their pubs to look like they were built in the victorian times, for the best part this "was" a good idea, but I think people (especially younger people 20's and 30's) are not feeling they are being catered for, this has also added to an increase in people going to what some consider "trendy" wine bars etc, i'm not saying pubs have to look like wine bars but a bit of discreet modernisation can go a long way.
Hay i'm 19 and I love the design of an old time pub. Ok I know that 95% of the time it's just a Victorian style mockup inside a modern building however I much prefer it to a bar that looks new and modernist.
Also " pubs declining" where? this is the first I've heard of there being fewer publicans about. Everywhere I look in my local town your never more than a quarter of a mile away from a respectable pub. Really the only decline we need to be concerned about is the decline in real ale. That is an end must be brought to this nonsensical canned lager! Bring back good taste to your beer men |
The TX
Gallente
Earth Inc.
Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.06.28 13:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: TimGascoigne
Edited by: TimGascoigne on 28/06/2008 13:40:57
Originally by: Nebulous
3. We now live in the year 2008, yet landlords still continue to fit out their pubs to look like they were built in the victorian times, for the best part this "was" a good idea, but I think people (especially younger people 20's and 30's) are not feeling they are being catered for, this has also added to an increase in people going to what some consider "trendy" wine bars etc, i'm not saying pubs have to look like wine bars but a bit of discreet modernisation can go a long way.
Hay i'm 19 and I love the design of an old time pub. Ok I know that 95% of the time it's just a Victorian style mockup inside a modern building however I much prefer it to a bar that looks new and modernist.
Also " pubs declining" where? this is the first I've heard of there being fewer publicans about. Everywhere I look in my local town your never more than a quarter of a mile away from a respectable pub. Really the only decline we need to be concerned about is the decline in real ale. That is an end must be brought to this nonsensical canned lager! Bring back good taste to your beer men
beer beer!, i mean, hear hear! |
Elysarian
Minmatar
dudetruck corp
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Posted - 2008.06.28 13:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Xrak
Originally by: The TX
it costs very little to make a soft drink in a pub
Your point doesn't stand because it's not true. The syrup is not cheap to buy, and so it doesn't cost very little to make a soft drink in a pub.
That's all I'm saying ya'know?
Unless things have changed drastically in the last 5 years Xrak is correct - I used to be bar manager in a pub and know for a fact that it costs between 7 and 10 pence for the Postmix syrup, water and CO2 that goes to make up a half pint of coke.
Pubs have always made most of their money from soft drinks. |
The TX
Gallente
Earth Inc.
Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.06.28 14:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Elysarian
Originally by: Xrak
Originally by: The TX
it costs very little to make a soft drink in a pub
Your point doesn't stand because it's not true. The syrup is not cheap to buy, and so it doesn't cost very little to make a soft drink in a pub.
That's all I'm saying ya'know?
Unless things have changed drastically in the last 5 years Xrak is correct - I used to be bar manager in a pub and know for a fact that it costs between 7 and 10 pence for the Postmix syrup, water and CO2 that goes to make up a half pint of coke.
Pubs have always made most of their money from soft drinks.
Eh? so you DON'T agree with him then surely, cuz he said the syrup is NOT cheap. I'm confused. |
Elysarian
Minmatar
dudetruck corp
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Posted - 2008.06.28 14:25:00 -
[20]
oops... remind me not to post when tired?
the syrup isn't cheap to buy in (comes in 3ltr boxes) but is cheap on a per-drink basis (7-10p a glass).
does that make more sense?
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Kalahari Wayrest
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.06.28 14:37:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Personally i like the olde world style of a "proper pub"
Same, but then I grew up on the isle of wight where most of the pubs are decorated by ship wrecks  |
Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.06.28 14:43:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 28/06/2008 14:44:57
Originally by: Elysarian
oops... remind me not to post when tired?
the syrup isn't cheap to buy in (comes in 3ltr boxes) but is cheap on a per-drink basis (7-10p a glass).
does that make more sense?
You are saying that bars and resturantes make a killing off of the syrup that they buy from the distributor. Meaning that for the amount of syrup a bar buys, the bar makes a much higher percentage of profit off of the syrup versus a keg of beer. Correct? That sounds like the bar is charging much more then they need to make a legitiment profit thus they are goudging the non alcoholic drinkers for taking up the bars space. Not cool but within their rights. What I always figured.
But as for the OP post I just have to say that I am from the other side of the pond and I can say that this is not a common problem over here. Thanks Be.
EDIT: I will say that some places over here are starting to charge for water at certain periods and for similar reasons. They now many people have quit drinking sodas so they are going to to try and make a profit from the next source. The tap.
Slade |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.06.28 15:13:00 -
[23]
I can't much comment on british pubs, but a glass of coke at a bar here in western Canada would be maybe... $1.50? About 0.75 pound.
As for drugs being cheaper than booze, weed is cheaper here, E is maybe the same. Other than that, you get into sketchy drugs that no sane person would touch (crystal meth, glue, etc.).
Also, I don't think I've ever seen a pub close down.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Shadow Company
Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.28 15:26:00 -
[24]
Well, I can tell you this. Alcohol is where the profit margins comes from.
Softdrinks in all honour, but there are static costs (rent, staff, supplies etc). Maybe the profit margins off a soft drink is pretty high. Maybe it only costs 10 pence in terms to mix it. But it costs a lot more than that to actually serve it.
A Customer doesn't spend ú20 in one night on soft drinks. Add food and your average customer that isn't drinking alcohol you'll only get ú5 in profits. Maybe. And food costs a fair amount to make and it costs a fair amount to maintain the facilities needed to cook food.
100 customers in a night (if it's a decently popular place), ú500.
15kú per month.
Taxes, wages (if you get 100 customers you'll probably need 5 people on your staff. 1. At the bar, 2 serving/removing dishes and 2 in the kitchen), rent etc.
It's simply not going to go around unless you turn it into a fastfood joint and try to get a higher turnover.
Maybe softdrinks cost little to make, but the profit per hour and in relation the the amount gear you need to support it is low.
No. A pub without an alcohol permit is a pub that is going to go out of business within the month.
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Terradyne Networks
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Posted - 2008.06.28 17:02:00 -
[25]
Your cheap and overly conscious about your fashion sense you fairy.
my 2 cents. |
diabolic clone
Amarr
Anomaly Collective
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Posted - 2008.06.28 18:02:00 -
[26]
I don't know about UK pubs but bars here in my state started taking massive losses once smoking was banned here.
Doesn't come as a surprise to me, when I drink I like to chain smoke. I won't drink where I can't smoke and the only reason for me to go to a bar is to drink.
I dislike non smokers that want smoking banned in public especially in bars, I can stand it in restaurants but a bar FFS? They can wear a gas mask for all I care if they don't like the smoke.
Smokers are already a minority that get raped by taxes.
They might get a few extra customers from time to time now that there isn't smoking but overall most of their regulars were alienated and will just save cash buying at a liquor store and getting a new squeeze to hang at where they can take their shoes off and kick back.
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The TX
Gallente
Earth Inc.
Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.06.28 18:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: diabolic clone
Stuff
There was a dip in the UK afaik, but it soon picked up again - the smokers realised they didn't mind TOO much that they had to pop outside for a ciggy, and the non-smokers started to realise how pleasant pubs were in their droves.
TBH, I have no sympathy for the smokers on this debate. I don't wanna **** off any smokers here, but I really don't think it's fair that us non-smokers used to have to breathe your smoke - I think the situation today is brilliant. Apart from the fact that everyone crowds around teh doors and smokes and we have to walk through a thick smog of cancer to get into the pub..... lol..
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Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.06.28 18:28:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 28/06/2008 18:29:21
Originally by: diabolic clone
I don't know about UK pubs but bars here in my state started taking massive losses once smoking was banned here.
Doesn't come as a surprise to me, when I drink I like to chain smoke. I won't drink where I can't smoke and the only reason for me to go to a bar is to drink.
I dislike non smokers that want smoking banned in public especially in bars, I can stand it in restaurants but a bar FFS? They can wear a gas mask for all I care if they don't like the smoke.
Smokers are already a minority that get raped by taxes.
They might get a few extra customers from time to time now that there isn't smoking but overall most of their regulars were alienated and will just save cash buying at a liquor store and getting a new squeeze to hang at where they can take their shoes off and kick back.
I have seen 3 situations in the states. Florida, Ohio, and Virginia.
1) Florida - Bars that sold more alcohol then food could smoke. Other establishments were non-smocking.
2) Ohio - Complete ban on smoking in doors. But I would say that has not hurt the bar economy in Columbus. But then again that is a huge University town.
3) Virginia - places have the right to make themselves non-smoking. Which a good number of concert hall/clubs are smoke free. But if Va. ever bans smoking completely indoors the rest of the county is sson to follow or Va is the last one to do it.
So I would say to this point there has been a slight effect on bar survivability in the states. Heck in Richmond Va. the survivability of a bar is more based on the owners keeping their fingers out of the drug game. Many bars have closed since the owner partied way to much.
All that being said, I am a firm believer that any establishment has a right to choose. Just like people have a choice to go or not go or work or not work there. It just opens up a dedicated market too cater to thus opens space for additional entrepreneurs.
Slade
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Sierra Lima
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Posted - 2008.06.28 22:48:00 -
[29]
CAMRA have laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Government and taxes.
Quote:
Pub beer prices have increased above inflation over the last ten years and the Chancellor must give beer a break. Supermarket beer prices, on the other hand, have actually fallen in real terms, often making beer cheaper than bottled water. Supermarkets can absorb tax rises while small pub operators can't and the clear effect of this is to drive consumers away from the pub and into their armchair
and it's going to get worse
Quote:
The Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) has hit out at the Chancellor's decision to increase beer duty by 4 pence a pint in today's Budget, together with annual increases of 2% above inflation for the next four years. The consumer group claims that the increase will lead to at least 20 pence on a pint over the bar, fuelling pub closures and increasing unregulated drinking as more choose to drink at home or on the streets.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.29 07:36:00 -
[30]
Personally I blame MTV |
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