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Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:19:00 - [151] Originally by: Khyle The exact wording was "-war or not." So read again. Plus read Jades post, she came up with a more empire-centric example of the problem. Most importantly, do militia members get standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias?* Can¦t find any mention of this in the devblogs or guide. If no, then why should anyone else attacking militia members get standing hits. * direct standing hits for aggression, not derived from your faction standing increasing by doing FW missions Opposing militia take standings hits with the opposing militia corporation when they kill a member of that militia corporation, just as you take a hit with CAS when you destroy the ship of a CAS member. You do not take faction standings hits for attacking another player. If Jade attacks and kills my ship, Jade suffers no Caldari State penalty, however as would be expected LDIS sets SF to -10.0 and thus receives a standings hit with the corporation I am part of. I have received factional standings hits for attacking NPCs in missions and dungeons. So the answer is it depends on whether the target is part of the militia corporation or part of a corporation in the faction. Third party pilots who attack members of the militia corporation will receive the same standings hit that attacking a member of any NPC corporation triggers. Founder Heiian Society
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:20:00 - [152] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/07/2008 15:20:56 Originally by: nVChicky Originally by: Khyle Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:01:42 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Khyle ...Most importantly, do militia members get direct standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias? ... At the moment I do not believe they do. Which should instantly silence all people asking for non-militia corps fighting militia corps getting standing hits imho. Can we get a definite answer on this? nVChicky, Ulstan, ...? As far as I can tell reading from my logs you DO get a hit for fighting NPC militia when capping but you don't when when engaging players from opposing militia Corps example: Kill mail >2008.06.23 22:21:00 Victim: Kingeal Corp: Invicta. Alliance: NONE Faction: Gallente Federation but no corresponding Faction Standing hit Yes and thats the point. It is an absolute nonsense to argue that non FW corps should take standings hits for attacking FW corps when FW players themselves take NO standings hits for shooting at enemy FW corps. This topic in my view is based on a fundimental misunderstanding of the mechanics at play here and has been partially hijacked by some interests that just want to be safe from ANY kind of wardec in Caldari hisec. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:20:00 - [153] Edited by: Ulstan on 02/07/2008 15:25:30 Quote: You are arguing for specific standings losses that have a lasting effect on players ability to move in empire space. But the reality is that your hypothetical corp in the Caldari Militia is NOT taking standings hits for shooting other players period. And COULD if it wished to leave the Caldari Miltia, wardec whom it chooses, even join the Gallente, Minmatar or Amarr miltias the next day to play the field from the other side. You cannot argue for equivalence on this basis. The standings losses in FW are corporation losses for shooting people. It would have no effect on your ability to move around in empire space, just your ability to join another factions militia later. I am arguing for the navies to attack those at war with a militia corp in their hi sec, just as navies will attack those militia in other hi sec places. This is completely fair. Quote: Problem is there aren't really any disadvantages for a corp joining a miltia. You're right, there are NO DISADVANTAGES to having 5,000 pilots able to shoot you legally, and being unable to enter half of hi sec without being shot at. If that's true, then there's no disadvantage to being -10 either. I am arguing for a situation of completely parity here, while you are arguing for one side to have NPC navy protection while the other does not. As I said earlier, you are trying to have it both ways.
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:24:00 - [154] The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant. The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:25:00 - [155] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:26:38 Originally by: nVChicky The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant. The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance. /signed, for the first part. The alliance part, i personally dont care honestly, but i guess some FW people probably wouldnt want Goonswarm and others invading their space.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:26:00 - [156] Originally by: Ulstan I am arguing for the navies to attack those at war with a militia corp in their hi sec, just as navies will attack those militia in other hi sec places. This is completely fair. It CAN only be fair (read balanced) if the external power had the same target choice as an enemy militia has. At the moment this isn't the case. A player corp cannot declare war on the militia entity and cannot hisec aggress player members of the Militia. You are confusing direct membership of the Militia (as you yourself have) and indirect membership of the militia through corp affiliation (as in the case of FCR and others). Your character is a loyalist sworn directly to Heth's cause Ulsan and you are protected by Concord from 3rd party interference and your faction navy from enemy militia interference. But members of corps that have simply affilitated with militias are a different case - consider them privateers or freelancers or contracted help. They are not direct militia members and they are not held to the same standards of association (ie their individual memebers do not need the standings you do). CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:27:00 - [157] Originally by: nVChicky The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant. The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance. That wouldn't really fix the issue we're discussing, unless you removed the ability of non militia corps to war dec militia corps, which is not at all something I'm convinced should happen. The issue is one of simply equality: a militia corp cannot enter their enemies hi sec space while in the militia without navy interference. Therefore, to keep things even, if you war dec a corporation belonging to a faction militia, you shouldn't be able to enter their hi sec space without navy interference.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:27:00 - [158] Originally by: nVChicky The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant. The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance. Cool lets raise it as a CSM ISSUE on the Assembly hall forum and I'll be happy to support that. Nice to see this thread developed the debate in a constructive direction. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:28:00 - [159] Edited by: Pithecanthropus on 02/07/2008 15:29:33 Originally by: Jade Constantine Problem is there aren't really any disadvantages for a corp joining a miltia. Its a hellova lot of free wardecs and no lasting consequence should they wish to leave at any time they choose. I completely oppose any principle that would allow corporations to make themselves un-wardecable is the bottom line. I think there is a huge problem with the Militia npc corp itself being un-wardecable but thats another story. Faction Warfare is designed to be meaningful pvp in empire and a way of allowing nationalists to contest low-sec systems. Its not designed to be a war-dec avoidance mechanic to protect entities from the consequences of their non FW actions. NO DISADVANTAGES!!! that's a funny one. Are you saying that not being able to fly in ALL of the opposing faction regions is NOT a disadvantage? If that's your idea, then by all means... YOU leave your alliance and join the militia and find out for yourself. Or, how about YOU take on all the rules of faction warfare within your declared wars? hmmmmmm? No, you wouldn't be so naive to take on that responsibility. How could you manage your Caldari attacks if you were not allowed in Caldari hi-sec. Oh, and another disadvantage... some milita members fly ships designed for certain complexes. So yes, you can gain an advange there if militia roaming ships are t1 frigs. Your war decs are about kills and griefs... not even a roleplay issue. That's just a fake coating you put on it all to try and justify your lameness. When corps join militia, they lose space, and gain a war... when YOU declare war on a milita corp, you gain the safety of space, and grief a war. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:30:00 - [160] Originally by: Ulstan Originally by: nVChicky The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant. The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance. That wouldn't really fix the issue we're discussing, unless you removed the ability of non militia corps to war dec militia corps, which is not at all something I'm convinced should happen. The issue is one of simply equality: a militia corp cannot enter their enemies hi sec space while in the militia without navy interference. Therefore, to keep things even, if you war dec a corporation belonging to a faction militia, you shouldn't be able to enter their hi sec space without navy interference. I think the point those for war dec's are getting at is that war dec's are part of the game. You say about making things 'even' the only way in which to do this and 'keep everyone happy' so to speak would be to allow FW Corps to 'aid' each other in wars through their own choice.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:31:00 - [161] Originally by: Ulstan [ The issue is one of simply equality: a militia corp cannot enter their enemies hi sec space while in the militia without navy interference. Therefore, to keep things even, if you war dec a corporation belonging to a faction militia, you shouldn't be able to enter their hi sec space without navy interference. You are still confusing the status of personal membership in the Militia entity with Corporation association with the FW cause. Its not the same thing. The solution proposed (above) answers the problem of allowing FW corps to help other FW corps that are wardecced and its a player empowerment option that allows players to provide consequence to actions of other players. You are really off-target with the standings issue because at the moment nobody is taking standings losses for firing on FW-aligned player corps. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:34:00 - [162] Originally by: Jade Constantine It CAN only be fair (read balanced) if the external power had the same target choice as an enemy militia has. Uh, no. By your definition no war could be fair if the target corp was a different size than the deccing corp. We know this is not in fact, the case. It sounds to me like you think war deccing someone should let you shoot at as many people as they can shoot at in all their other wars they may have going on ... that's not how war decs work. Quote: Your character is a loyalist sworn directly to Heth's cause Ulsan and you are protected by Concord from 3rd party interference and your faction navy from enemy militia interference. But members of corps that have simply affilitated with militias are a different case - consider them privateers or freelancers or contracted help. Again, nope. Privateers or free lancers or contracted help would be just that: mercs, people like CVA, etc. Militia corps are official members of the militia - that's why they are barred from entering the opposing factions hi sec space, why every member of the opposing militia gets to shoot at them, and why they have to maintain appropriately high standings with the caldari faction and why they'll be kicked out of the militia if their standings fall too low. The issue is a very simple one: militia corps cannot enter enemy hi spec space without being attacked by faction navies. Therefore, to keep things fair, people who war dec militia corps should be unable to enter their hi sec space without being attacked by their faction navies. Any other arrangement breaks the parity and balance and leaves one side with a safe haven the other doesn't have an equivalent too.
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:35:00 - [163] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Edited by: Pithecanthropus on 02/07/2008 15:29:33 Originally by: Jade Constantine Problem is there aren't really any disadvantages for a corp joining a miltia. Its a hellova lot of free wardecs and no lasting consequence should they wish to leave at any time they choose. I completely oppose any principle that would allow corporations to make themselves un-wardecable is the bottom line. I think there is a huge problem with the Militia npc corp itself being un-wardecable but thats another story. Faction Warfare is designed to be meaningful pvp in empire and a way of allowing nationalists to contest low-sec systems. Its not designed to be a war-dec avoidance mechanic to protect entities from the consequences of their non FW actions. NO DISADVANTAGES!!! that's a funny one. Are you saying that not being able to fly in ALL of the opposing faction regions is NOT a disadvantage? If that's your idea, then by all means... YOU leave your alliance and join the militia and find out for yourself. Or, how about YOU take on all the rules of faction warfare within your declared wars? hmmmmmm? No, you wouldn't be so naive to take on that responsibility. How could you manage your Caldari attacks if you were not allowed in Caldari hi-sec. Oh, and another disadvantage... some milita members fly ships designed for certain complexes. So yes, you can gain an advange there if militia roaming ships are t1 frigs. Your war decs are about kills and griefs... not even a roleplay issue. That's just a fake coating you put on it all to try and justify your lameness. When corps join militia, they lose space, and gain a war... when YOU declare war on a milita corp, you gain the safety of space, and grief a war. I agree in heart Pithe BUT a few points 1) if people do not wish to be in a war dec the can leave the player Corp 2) newbie players WILL learn by War Dec;s if they stay in the Player Corp 3) The problem is support and lack of it
Ayrianna Nagaya	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:40:00 - [164] I am really upset that the Chair for the CSM is so biased for his own perogatives. Ulstan has almost everything right. However I am against alliances joining FW. I just think that when you dec a militia corp the ENTIRE militia gets to shoot you back if they are in a gang with a decced militia corp. This should only apply to militias so that the Lofty scam can't work on everyone else. Militia's are PvP fit and looking to shoot people and they fly ships they count on losing. I am not concerned as much about them as as mission runners that fly ships fit to fight NPCs.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:41:00 - [165] There are two complaints here: 1) That one FW corp can be wardecced and thus vulnerable to attack in situations where their fellow non-wardecced FW corps cannot come to their defense. and, somewhat distinct from that, 2) That a FW corp is subject to attack by NPCs that a non-FW corp/alliance is not, presenting a relative disadvantage in certain space. However both of these complaints are the result of actions the FW corp chose - chosing to remain in the Militia under the FW corp, and choosing not to enlist your fellow militia corps in a counter-wardec. Think of it this way: The Caldari Militia exists to attack the Gallente and Minmatar Militias, not to defend members of the Caldari Militia from pirates or third-party political enemies - that is CONCORD's job. A wardec is a CONCORD affair, and the Caldari Militia can't be bothered defending its members from every pirate or terrorist that attacks individual members, they have bigger fish to fry. The tools are there. If the other Militia Player Corps want to they can wardec a common 3rd party enemy. They can also disband and join the NPC Militia Corp and be immune to Player Corp wardecs (although I find it silly that they would have that immunity). But by choosing to do neither of those things, they bring the current situation on themselves.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:43:00 - [166] Originally by: Ulstan Again, nope. Privateers or free lancers or contracted help would be just that: mercs, people like CVA, etc. Militia corps are official members of the militia - that's why they are barred from entering the opposing factions hi sec space, why every member of the opposing militia gets to shoot at them, and why they have to maintain appropriately high standings with the caldari faction and why they'll be kicked out of the militia if their standings fall too low. The individual members of the FW associated corps do not need Caldari standings. They have an additional layer of removal from the Militia cause. These corporations have chosen to remain corporations rather than disbanding and all joining as individuals under individual standings scrutiny. They retain a degree of independence that comes with advantages for corporations - and disadvantages (the ability to be wardecced) this is all fine and above board. The proposal I've discussed above is allowing ANY FW-aligned corporation to "buy-into" the wardecs against any other FW corporation free of charge. That would mean that if SF declare on FCR we could get 20-30 corps joining in and deciding to defend their allies in the militia. I think that would be fair enough and a good direction for the game to go in. Hence I'll be supporting it as an ISSUE and casting my vote for its escalation should it come up. Quote: The issue is a very simple one: militia corps cannot enter enemy hi spec space without being attacked by faction navies. Therefore, to keep things fair, people who war dec militia corps should be unable to enter their hi sec space without being attacked by their faction navies. You are still confusing corps with individuals. The corps are not losing standings for shooting at enemy FW corps. Any time they want they can simply leave one Militia and travel where they choose. Quote: Any other arrangement breaks the parity and balance and leaves one side with a safe haven the other doesn't have an equivalent too. There are no safe havens. Any of these corps could disassociate with the militia and counterattack on wardec with anybody it chooses. Thats eve. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ayrianna Nagaya	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:44:00 - [167] Originally by: Jade Constantine You are still confusing the status of personal membership in the Militia entity with Corporation association with the FW cause. Its not the same thing. The solution proposed (above) answers the problem of allowing FW corps to help other FW corps that are wardecced and its a player empowerment option that allows players to provide consequence to actions of other players. You are really off-target with the standings issue because at the moment nobody is taking standings losses for firing on FW-aligned player corps. Uh.. no. Caldari are KOS to the NPC navies of Gallente and Minmitar. So fine you want to dec Militia corps. As soon as you do you are KOS for thier navy in high sec. Then you face all the restrictions that the militia corps face and don't take standings hits for shooting them in low sec. If you dec a Gallente corp too, then you are KOS for all NPC navies because you have decced corps from BOTH sides. Now you can fight us fair in low sec just like everyone else. I think that is 100% fair.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:50:00 - [168] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/07/2008 15:52:22 Originally by: Ayrianna Na*a I am really upset that the Chair for the CSM is so biased for his own perogatives. I suspect you'll be hard pressed to find any member of the CSM to agree with your point of view on this. You need to appreciate you are arguing for the narrow interest of a small corporation aligned with the Caldari FW militia that appears to want to be safe from corporate wardecs while functioning as part of that Militia. The implications of the changes you desire are quite hideous for Eve as an open pvp game and would lead to a virtual sharding/pvp instancing of the server and FW becoming the ultimate war-dec avoidance exploit. I feel I'd be failing completely in my responsibility of a CSM delegate if I didn't strongly oppose the direction you are arguing for the game. So I'll repeat. Get into a spaceship. Fight. Make allies, hire mercs, play the game. I for one am completely unsympathetic to those that cry "exploit" "griefer" and whine for changes to the game rather than play the game itself when all the tools and opportunities and advantages you need are fully within your reach and grasp. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:19:00 - [169] Originally by: nVChicky I agree in heart Pithe BUT a few points 1) if people do not wish to be in a war dec the can leave the player Corp 2) newbie players WILL learn by War Dec;s if they stay in the Player Corp 3) The problem is support and lack of it 1. of course that goes without saying... but in cases like this, most are in corp to be in faction war. its not about a war dec. 2. wtf do you mean learn by war decs? they are already learning in faction war. staying in the player corp has no merit 3. the problem is not lack of support. the problem is deccing a militia corp without having the same consequences to that militia and its opposing militias. If you join your corp into a militia you and your opposing militas have a 'tit-for-tat' exchange in safe space and hostile space. when an outside corp/alliance decs a militia corp they get all the '****' and no 'tats'... so to speak that is a flaw. they should be held to the same restrictions as if they were in the militia itself, but without having any scoring or victory points or complex raiding capabilities. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:35:00 - [170] Jade, you should be listening to the views of the majority, not simply and blindly defending your own selfish corner. You gave up the right to be so when you took the csm position. Remember you are in an ELECTED position, put there by the people to represent thier views and interests. TBH nothing good has been said about u since you were given that position, dont rate your chances for re-election much... "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:36:00 - [171] Edited by: Kovid on 02/07/2008 16:39:34 I think it's funny that the empires put their guns down. Really they did mostly. War broke out for a flash point and then they go and agree with each other to settle things, they create militias. All while their navies and all their main military personal and equipment sits back on their butts. Meanwhile they get capsuleers to do their dirty work for them. They even limit the contention to areas they already considered dangerous and not patrolled, lowsec.
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:40:00 - [172] Originally by: Miz Cenuij Jade, you should be listening to the views of the majority, not simply and blindly defending your own selfish corner. You gave up the right to be so when you took the csm position. Remember you are in an ELECTED position, put there by the people to represent thier views and interests. TBH nothing good has been said about u since you were given that position, dont rate your chances for re-election much... doesnt mean you been elected that he can put his view across and just take it and shut up. I for one agree what i seen what he said so far! Trinity Corporate Services
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:44:00 - [173] Originally by: Miz Cenuij Jade, you should be listening to the views of the majority, not simply and blindly defending your own selfish corner. You gave up the right to be so when you took the csm position. Remember you are in an ELECTED position, put there by the people to represent thier views and interests. TBH nothing good has been said about u since you were given that position, dont rate your chances for re-election much... Course the problem is everybody thinks THEY are the majority. Everybody feels their understanding of an issue is the right one. But you honestly can't decide what the MAJORITY thinks by reading a couple of angry responses from a forum thread. Understanding of the pros and cons of various issues comes from talking to ALOT of players, in-game, out of game, reading round the subjects, testing things, trying things out for yourself. Nothing ever good came from taking angry posts from alts on the forums too literally Miz. If you feel I'm wrong on this issue then feel free to post an assembly hall thread with your proposed solution. It'll get debated and we'll see if any CSM delegate is convinced by the argument and it'll go for votes if the logical is decent and its judged to be in the interests of the game. As for my CSM performance I'd expect pretty much everyone who voted for me on the expectation I'd argue for the interests of small unit pvp and space combat dynamism would have no cause to complain so far. I'm happy to stand on my voting record and issues presented. I know its impossible to please everyone, particularly on emotive issues like this one - but I really don't lose sleep about people who disagree making murky comments about re-election. Hell, at the end of the day I'll point people at my election manifesto and say "thats what i got voted in to do" call me a liar if I fail to advocate those points, but cry me a river if you are surprised about my opinion when I gave you a 6000 word essay on the subject prior to the popular vote! CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:48:00 - [174] Also for advantages of miltias. - They have a built in intelligence network (the militia channel,) thousands men strong. Not many 0.0 alliances have that. - They can evade people in complexes. I think the failures of the Caldari militia are a bad example. Look at the successes of the Minmatar militias. They are much more organized and they have some good corporations in it that help it be that way. You don't see Amarr militia whinging as much as the Caldari.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:49:00 - [175] Originally by: Jade Constantine Course the problem is everybody thinks THEY are the majority. Just cuz you in a position of power doesn't make your argument the majority either. You have to listen to reasonable arguments from both sides, and as it loks now you already made your decision. That's a shame. Seeing no one in Eve has a chance to even argue the point when you can't even be open to other beliefs. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:54:00 - [176] I don't see Jade modding this thread, or muting you. Stop acting like a victim and do something. Oh yeah you are on this thread. It's not someone elses fault you can't hold up a good argument. If you feel there is an issue, go bring it up like Jade said in Assembly Hall.
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 16:56:00 - [177] Jade please check your mail Thanks
Nitalya Amarr Das Reich.	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:02:00 - [178] the more i read the compleet garbage that comes from jade and the rest of SF mouths i understand what this stunt is all about... SF is all bent out of shape cause FW wasnt created for alliances with them in mind, it was created for the individual player and small corps to give them an idea of what alliances are like and give players access to fleet battles and the like. rather than go to war with other RP communitys that are still in tact SF decided to point out a flaw in the FW system allowing allinces to influence faction warfare with minimal risk to themself. and whats truly sad about his is the sandbox nature of eve will allow a few jacka$$es to ruin the game experience of many. simple fact SF is trying to bully ccp into changing FW to suit there agenda at the expence of other players game experience. and as a member of the CSM jade should be ashamed of himself for not takeing the proper actions to get this issue resolved, instead they take the same aproach a small child would. they claim to hate all empires but only agress a few small corps in one. SF can stand behind RP all they want but its simple they are cowards and there leadership has proven to me that they dont deserve my respect or the respect from anyone in the eve community. would like a good explination as to why caldari was chose over the other 3 factions and why they wont wardec a real alliance? and i really want to point out one more time CCP has give OVER HALF the regions in eve to alliance to do as they wish why is it so hard to understand that CCP would five something for the indidual player and small corps to do. you know for poeple that dont want to deal with egomaniacs like jade constintine or sir mole.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:04:00 - [179] Originally by: nVChicky Jade please check your mail Thanks Will do, also supported your Assembly Hall thread. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Nitalya Amarr Das Reich.	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:04:00 - [180] and fine ifyou want to allow alliances to wardec corps in the militia then they should be KOS to the faction navies aswell..... but this doesnt fix the issue of being able to pick off war targets out of milita gangs at will while the rest get to watch them kill your milita members. its a shame ccp didnt put some systme in place to deal with this kind of issue everyone knew it was just a matter of time till some hack alliance threw a hissy fit like this.

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