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Sieg Varheit
The Mutineers
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Posted - 2008.06.29 13:27:00 -
[1]
T1,
People seem to be building ships under the assumption that because they have mined the minerals they are free? And as such I find all of the tech one modules in my region and the regions around me are selling for 4-7% below build cost I cant compete with this.
T2
People are ignoring the data core costs because again they see items given by agents as free and don't include them in costs they also seem to ignore things like slot rent costs and as such I find items are in some cases being sold for as low as 42% of there build cost?
So I'm wondering is there any way to compete with this kind of market? If there is and someone is willing to show me how to make a profit (I have production efficiency is 5) I'm willing to share 25% of my profits monthly.
Sieg |
rain9441
Eve University
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Posted - 2008.06.29 13:50:00 -
[2]
T1: Ships run on a lower profit margin due to their massive price tag. Once you get enough capitol, even a 5% profit margin on ships beats out most other types of items you can manufacture (in terms of total profit per unit of time). Most modules go for below build cost because they are looted off NPCs. There are exceptions of course, some examples are things that are in higher demand (eg not ship or ship type specific) such as afterburners, microwarpdrives, damage control, invulnerability fields, etc. I've found a lot of interest in micro auxiliary power cores, everyone can use them!
As for people who mine there own minerals, the volume that produce shouldn't be significant. If they are running for 4-7% below build cost than why would you build them? Just buy his, its cheaper than making the item, and sell it for more. But my guess is this guy is selling for below build cost because he is probably a trader reselling something he bought for far less than he paid. Don't manufacture that item, theres plenty of other things to manufacture.
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vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.06.29 14:11:00 -
[3]
Manufacture things that NPCs don't drop, or they don't drop in sufficiently large amounts to affect the market. Tractor beams, salvagers and ammo score big here; but you will have to sell in mission hubs and keep a close eye on the market.
There is some money in destroyers and industrials, too; both used for salvaging and looting.
I concur with other posters here; the reason for cheap module prices is that the sellers got them free as loot drops and don't have the refining skills to profitably melt them down.
You can make extra isk by making your mineral inputs cheaper; how to do this? Simple. Get the refining skills (or team up with someone who already has them) and put up buy orders for drone alloys and BS non-named tech 1 guns in a level 4 mission hub, at maybe 20-30% less than the going rate (or just a bit more than the competition). The orders will get filled, I guarantee.
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Solar Ray
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Posted - 2008.06.29 15:03:00 -
[4]
Do more research on the market. Seriously.
In lowsec one is able to sell T1 ships with a nice profit. Half of T2 stuff generates profit with all the current prices, just buying datacores off the market.
If you are thinking to manufacture around Jita, forget it. Way too much competition in my opinion. In other places - huge gaps in the market, all ready to be exploited. Again, 0.0 might be attractive too, if you have some semi-safe access to it. |
FeCralloy
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Posted - 2008.06.29 16:07:00 -
[5]
amarr space has higher prices for stuff making it more profitable.
and also, in a market full of idiots there lots of ways to win. once i bought 10M worth of frigates and promply reprocessed them for 10.8M of minerals.
make a nice spreadsheet.
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Polemarchus
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.06.29 16:25:00 -
[6]
T1:
I'd bet that the market often suffers from a constant influx of new players who do not accurately calculate their time and cost when manufacturing T1 items and ships. They mine and manufacture, then set an unreasonably low market price for their goods. This hurts the more experienced manufacturers who understand how to accurately price items, and hold their time in greater value.
As mentioned above, the best solution may be to take advantage of the glut market by polishing off your junk refining skills. Then you can haul the goods to Jita, melt them, and get top dollar from the folks who are manufacturing top-end T2 items and ships and don't care how much they pay for minerals.
Also, seek out the players who are selling below value and offer to lock in prices on large scale orders with them. They will be satisfied since they won't have to wait for payment, and you will bypass the market. You could even loan them well-researched blueprints for the best mineral compression.
I enjoyed manufacturing, but it became clear early on that I was going to have to sell in low-sec to make any reasonable profit per item, and the market was much smaller there. It was when I switched to junk refining that the money really started to roll in. Sometimes I feel kind of like a parasite since I'm buying items for a fraction of their value, but I'd estimate I'm making around 50 million ISK per hour, depending on the number of buy orders and the degree of competition.
The game serves up everything we need -- ore, loot drops, etc. -- but it doesn't force everyone to use these things wisely.
Polemarchus |
Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
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Posted - 2008.06.29 16:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: rain9441
As for people who mine there own minerals, the volume that produce shouldn't be significant.
This.
These people are the great bogeyman of the industry and market forums, but the more I hear about their alleged perfidy the less I believe it. The fact of the matter is that the guy (or even the 5- 10 guys) who mine a few hours a week and build only from what they can mine and reprocess isn't even on the same planet volume- wise as the high- capital afk producers who build exclusively from bought minerals.
That said though, I've been producing from minerals I mine for about 3 months now and while my volume is low my profit margin so far is 35.99% of gross sales... and that's just T1 items. In other words, I make 50% better off of my minerals than I would selling them outright. I've even found a handful of small ships that will fetch me at least my 16.7- percent- of- gross minimum, and that's the sector where margins are supposed to be the worst.
Market research, the EveMon mineral worksheet and a calculator are your best allies here. ___________________________________________
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Letrange
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.06.30 04:09:00 -
[8]
Strangely enough I never sell for less than 10% above mineral costs. If you are you're in the wrong market. There are plenty of T1 things that are fine profit wise. You generally need to move to a mini-hub instead of the big hubs if you're a manufacturer though. And though I mine, it's insufficient for my manufacturing needs so I cost everything at market prices.
Also take into account volume. It's more profitable at the end of the day to sell a high turn around item at 5% profit than something that doesn't move very well at 30% profit.
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Juraka Furo
Caldari Soulwing Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.30 06:30:00 -
[9]
Ehh, I put together a spreadsheet to calculate profit margins, and I got some really high numbers.
High as in like 150% profit (No, not 50%, 150%)
My tritanium is effectively worth 8 or so isk each.
And no, I am not telling you the items :)
Just start looking through some, and try to look at items that people use a lot, because that means more demand, and higher price.
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Allandra Stardream
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Posted - 2008.06.30 11:29:00 -
[10]
In a hub, unless you are making something like t2 ships then you'll get undercut by the world and his wife trading and selling at cost
Out of a hub - as a previous poster said, more ISK on items that dont drop via rats, bulk ammo, also think about the local area - on the edge of lowsec, how about nanos and WCS
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Kai Allori
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Posted - 2008.06.30 13:42:00 -
[11]
You are building the wrong items and ships.
In any particular area many of the items will sell below cost but others will be in high demand.
Building and trading doesnt guarantee a profit unless you do your research. Check the market - look for areas where high volumes are traded at profit and trade those.
I can make 40-50% on T1 cruisers - but only certain ones in certain markets. Same goes for T1 modules.
There is plenty of money to be made in t1 production and trading. It doesnt take high skills , just a little bit of time and investigation.
And No I wont tell you what or where.
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Alex Redwidth
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Posted - 2008.06.30 18:42:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Alex Redwidth on 30/06/2008 18:42:51
Quote: People seem to be building ships under the assumption that because they have mined the minerals they are free? And as such I find all of the tech one modules in my region and the regions around me are selling for 4-7% below build cost I cant compete with this.
Been a week or two since this tired old line has been wheeled out has it?
I made oodles of profit with only PE4 and valuing my mined minerals for 5-10% above lowest market sell price.
You're looking at the wrong items and apparently in the wrong region.
You want a freebie? Cruise Missiles. I look forward to my 25%.
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Gavin LeMarque
BRAHMA CORP
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Posted - 2008.06.30 19:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Alex Redwidth You want a freebie? Cruise Missiles. I look forward to my 25%.
You didn't just do that.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.06.30 20:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Quelque Chose
Originally by: rain9441
As for people who mine there own minerals, the volume that produce shouldn't be significant.
These people are the great bogeyman of the industry and market forums, but the more I hear about their alleged perfidy the less I believe it. The fact of the matter is that the guy (or even the 5- 10 guys) who mine a few hours a week and build only from what they can mine and reprocess isn't even on the same planet volume- wise as the high- capital afk producers who build exclusively from bought minerals.
Agreed, for what I build lately. Trying to find the supply in minerals from reprocessed loot, and buy orders. It's just been much easier logistically to buy from existing sell orders.
And I still make a decent margin on my items, because I took the time to research the market area and exploit limited supply on them. |
Molkil
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Posted - 2008.06.30 21:20:00 -
[15]
You can still make tons of money manufacturing and trading.
I just saw a Harbinger for sale for 25 million isk. Which is conservatively approximately 6.5 million less than cost to produce. Does this mean I am getting out of the Harbinger and BC market because I cannot match this price? No, it means I bought the Harb and I am now torn between reselling it or reprocessing for very cheap minerals.
One of the great things about the EVE market is that it is actually multple markets. You will not make money if you do not recongize this and exploit it.
No I will not tell you what, where and how.
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Shaitis
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.01 07:34:00 -
[16]
You are all assuming buying/ mining minerals at market price, which is wrong. If I'm getting mins below Jita or other hub market price my build costs may actually differ.
"What is funnier ? 20 Matari slaves pinned to one tree or 1 Matari slave pinned to 20 trees ? |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.07.01 10:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shaitis You are all assuming buying/ mining minerals at market price, which is wrong. If I'm getting mins below Jita or other hub market price my build costs may actually differ.
Alternatively you could just sell the minerals instead of the build product and save yourself all that effort.
REGARDLESS of what you pay for an item its true value lies between the highest buy order and the lowest sell order. Everything else is simply profit made trading, not by building.
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2008.07.01 10:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
Originally by: Shaitis You are all assuming buying/ mining minerals at market price, which is wrong. If I'm getting mins below Jita or other hub market price my build costs may actually differ.
Alternatively you could just sell the minerals instead of the build product and save yourself all that effort.
REGARDLESS of what you pay for an item its true value lies between the highest buy order and the lowest sell order. Everything else is simply profit made trading, not by building.
It is not always true. Often it can be easier to sell a ship for example then to sell minerals that you used to build it.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.07.01 10:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Darth Felin It is not always true. Often it can be easier to sell a ship for example then to sell minerals that you used to build it.
The value of the minerals will never be less than the buy order available right where you are. People selling items for less than the mineral value are typically selling in market hubs, where minerals will move quickly. Out in areas that minerals won't sell, you can usually sell the ships for a higher margin anyway, thus making double, half because you got the minerals cheaper than their 'value' and half because you sold the ship higher than it's 'value'.
For things like trit/pyerite their price can vary dramatically, but for higher end minerals their value is fairly similar since you can easily move them to a better market, in order for that to not be worth it your time has to be worth abit or the scale you're working on very small.
There's plenty of space for people working on a small scale to make a greater % profit, but overall they will make a lower end profit.
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Elhina Novae
Amarr Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI
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Posted - 2008.07.01 11:41:00 -
[20]
I've seen alot of opportunities where you can make 20 - 50% profit or even more producing, by putting up Buy Orders. Somebody set up us the bomb |
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kyrv
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Posted - 2008.07.01 12:07:00 -
[21]
I know this wont help much but one reason T1 Ship prices are low is players owning corps or alliance players mass produce ships. After Unlike real life where there are costs for storage these stock piles are sold at what ever rate to return capitol in some cases, a recent post I viewed showed a player with 15billion boasting 200 Dominix's after his alliance efforts and there will be more players as such.
To balance the market to stop accumulation of unsold stock the answer is quite simple, bring in docking fee's for ships in high sec, and not for 0.4 this would aid faction war eforts too mainly and dry up the surplus.
I dont think its a large problem just where the hell do 200 Dominix's go? |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.07.01 12:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: kyrv I dont think its a large problem just where the hell do 200 Dominix's go?
To gank squads that are used to attack overloaded haulers who are mass producing items; It the cycle of capitalism. |
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.01 14:55:00 -
[23]
oh my - it's quite simple - if people are selling ships for less than you can produce them, then buy their ships.
It's elementary, really. |
Xonox Galatorg
Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.07.01 14:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bloody Rabbit
Originally by: kyrv I dont think its a large problem just where the hell do 200 Dominix's go?
To gank squads that are used to attack overloaded haulers who are mass producing items; It the cycle of capitalism.
The unfortunate truth |
Absimi Liard
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Posted - 2008.07.01 16:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Pwett oh my - it's quite simple - if people are selling ships for less than you can produce them, then buy their ships.
It's elementary, really.
You're not wrong. But that feels so "trader-ey".
I don't like trading, I don't want to do it.
I mostly just want to build.
-abs
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:02:00 -
[26]
All builders are traders, but not all traders are builders.
_______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:08:00 -
[27]
If you want to build something excessive common (say.. Drakes or Ravens?) in a place with multiple competitors (say.. Caldari space and/or trade hubs) you will find a hard time getting anywhere.
Location Location Location.
Find an area where you can get cheap(ish) minerals, find out where a certain product is demanded more than supplied and build there.
No, nobody will tell you how/where to do it. __________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:59:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Absimi Liard
Originally by: Pwett oh my - it's quite simple - if people are selling ships for less than you can produce them, then buy their ships.
It's elementary, really.
You're not wrong. But that feels so "trader-ey".
I don't like trading, I don't want to do it.
I mostly just want to build.
-abs
Perhaps you should team up with a trader then, you could probably do better overall working with one than you could alone if you don't want to put time into working the market.
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Absimi Liard
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Gimpb
Perhaps you should team up with a trader then, you could probably do better overall working with one than you could alone if you don't want to put time into working the market.
I've been thinking the same actually. Ideally I'd like my corp to include a more active trader who I could just sell goods to at mins+5% or so. Let him/her make the isk for the trading aspects. At the moment I'm constantly racing around regions deciding what to build where, and sometimes even getting involved in bidding wars. It's all very trader.
I'd also like to have a hauler in-corp to take care of that end of it. The same goes for mining, I'd rather pay a miner to mine than do it myself. I'm not interested in sucking every ISK from the supply chain, all I want is a builder's share. Let the traders take their part, the haulers and miners as well.
Basically I keep feeling that specializing and integrating those specialists would be a much better way of doing things than the current generalized builder-route I'm taking. But my corp is small, and not into my thing really, so it won't happen here. And since I like my corp, well, what I should say is I like the people in my corp, too much to leave and start a new one it's a bit of a moot point.
Ah well.
-abs
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:39:00 -
[30]
Why abs, I am all those things, it's a shame I am locked into my own alliance _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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