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Ghoest
277
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Posted - 2012.03.15 04:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
If most of us are better at internet spaceships than we used to be guess what happens - we farm more money. Thus inflation.
If most of us are better at internet spaceships than we used to be guess what happens - we make less mistakes that lose our own stuff. Thus inflation.
And if more of us have realized that less fighting = more isk = more power then more of us dont fight. Thus inflation.
You cant stop inflation when everyone is good at getting rich. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Roh Voleto
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
107
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Posted - 2012.03.15 04:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yep, CCP Soundwave is right: It's all the customers fault. Never mind the bumbling fools behind the curtain. |
Digital Messiah
Heroic Era
141
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Posted - 2012.03.15 04:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
inflation would mean that items across the board are getting more expensive. meaning the value of isk is going down compared to a standard. Take the gold standard for example. Currently I am not sure what standard you are comparing isk's value to. And I seriously doubt we are experiencing inflation when the market changes by region. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" Enter a Heroic Era Today |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1037
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Posted - 2012.03.15 05:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
If you use PLEX as the gold standard, it is easy to see inflation. Minerals can not be a gold standard, since there is for all intents and purposes an infinite supply: short term there will be a delay in the time required for supply to rise. Minerals will deflate while miners value their time at less than L4 missions.
Inflation only means the value of the currency is falling. Items that devalue faster than the currency may appear to be getting cheaper, but that is only a symptom of oversupply, |
Cindy Marco
Expanse Security
60
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Posted - 2012.03.15 05:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:inflation would mean that items across the board are getting more expensive. meaning the value of isk is going down compared to a standard. Take the gold standard for example. Currently I am not sure what standard you are comparing isk's value to. And I seriously doubt we are experiencing inflation when the market changes by region.
You compare the value of isk, to the old value of isk.
- Pick a base year (starting point)
- Build a market basket
- See how the isk value of said basket has changed
- ????
- Profit
|
Roh Voleto
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
107
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Posted - 2012.03.15 05:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Some people think that PLEX is the closest thing EVE has to gold, but in reality PLEX has a tangible value and is subject to use based market forces, rather than being being something only people with big noses and compulsive hoarding disorder care about.
The real "gold-standard" of EVE are bounty payouts, and what killing a single rat will buy you.
Based on this,I can say very certain: That NPC seeded skill books had the same price for the last two years. |
Grumpy Owly
326
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Posted - 2012.03.15 05:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Short reason why inflation is topical:
CSM reported in the December minutes the inflation figures for the game:
Quote:In general the EVE economy is in good shape. All macro indicators are within acceptable parameters, fluctuations are minimal and participation in the economy is going up. Most online games experience constant inflation, where the developers are constantly adding new items at higher prices which end up with devaluing both the currency used in the game and older items. EVE shows a different behavior, where over a few years there was a continued deflation (following the introduction of tech II invention) but over the past year and a half there has been good stability with a mild inflation (around 1% per month). The Consumer Price Index is monitored very closely and due to the amount of information about the economy available to CCP the index is updated monthly. EVEGÇÖs has a well-functioning economy as people can buy more with their ISK which allows both older players to advance and new players to start off in an easier manner.
People as a result jumped onto a propoganda band wagon that incursions are therefore the main cause for inflation as a result. And have used it for a while now as one of the main reasons to nerf them. Likewise as a result they have been incorrectly assuming plex increases have occured solely for the same reason.
Yet CCP recently validated this point that incursions are not the main problem:
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're looking at the economy constantly and looking at our options.
One of the fundamental issues we have is that we're making everyone "better" at making money, so the effect kind of snowballs. Right now we're considering everything form increasing taxes to lowering bounties across the board.
CCP Soundwave wrote:Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally.
Zircon Dasher wrote:Fun Facts:
In the month of Feb:
~8.6T ISK in Incursion Payouts
~4.8T in Mission Rewards + Mission Bonuses ~32T in NPC bounty
So of the combined Incursion/Missions/Ratting/etc ISK faucet
~81% comes from non-Incursion activity
CCP Soundwave wrote:Someone already posted the numbers, the majority of isk in EVE comes off bounties and if anything, we should be reviewing the current bounties on battleship NPCs.
As a result everyone is now scrambling to best defend their own patch (still including incursions) as a result of the perceived changes CCP will likley apply to combat perceived inflationary problems.
So its kind of a kneejerk reaction that a global reduction in bounties and some tweaks to sinks which together may not be so significant a change to make inflation less of a concern on a macro scale.
As a result you could say it might have backfired a little on those who originally started the propoganda as a result? Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
117
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Posted - 2012.03.15 06:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Inflation= Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).
Only that has been raised on long term is PLEX. Other products have gone up and down. Mostly changes on game mechanics causes product price changes.
I would say that in game prices deflate but plex inflate so what is actually happening if you do not use plex.
People have more isk to use so they can use it for out of game item as plex. In game item prices does not raise, because people are manufacturing those as cheap as they can and selling with small profits without adjusting prices to PLEX price changes. |
IsTheOpOver
76
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Posted - 2012.03.15 07:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:... stuff about Inflation= Economics...
Dude, your eyebrow (is missing)! |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
77
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Posted - 2012.03.15 07:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
What we're really seeing here is everyone is SCARED SHITLESS of a nerf of THIER isk or mineral faucets & everyone is SCREAMING NERF THE OTHER GUY NOT ME preempitively trying to bolster thier arguements... lol SCREAM HAVOC AND LET LOOSE THE DOGS OF WAR!!! |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3009
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Posted - 2012.03.15 09:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
the gripe about incursions has nothing to do with inflation, it's the comparatively low risk in contrast with nullsec anomalies and wormhole sleeper sites
i hope this has provided some valuable insight in this discussion "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2971
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Posted - 2012.03.15 10:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Apparently, we're all experts at spelling now, too.
---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Grumpy Owly
327
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Posted - 2012.03.15 11:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Andski wrote:the gripe about incursions has nothing to do with inflation, it's the comparatively low risk in contrast with nullsec anomalies and wormhole sleeper sites
i hope this has provided some valuable insight in this discussion
Not really.
Seriously, where have you been for the last few months. You know full well all the numerous calls linking inflation with incursions as the main culprit.
And I did say it was "one of the main reasons" people where trying to attache this label.
Some interesting statements and views you might want to explain however?
Andski wrote:Sleepers don't have bounties, so there's no direct ISK injection unlike incursions.
Purge high-sec incursions entirely. Done.
...
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Andski wrote:the price spike on lowends is a result of a nerf to drone anoms
the price spike on PLEX is, however, easily attributed to incursions
get real moron Really? Prove it. Show me the numbers. Show me CCP's calculations on this subject. Anything else is just propaganda.
---
Rational Plex spike reasons.
Interesting watching Goons back peddling with their rhetoric however in an attempt to remove the taint of their BS. Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
134
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 11:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Andski wrote:the gripe about incursions has nothing to do with inflation, it's the comparatively low risk in contrast with nullsec anomalies and wormhole sleeper sites
i hope this has provided some valuable insight in this discussion
Now you are saying that but before it was all about the :isk faucet:
For all the-áomgz incursions are an isk faucet-áwhiners CCP Soundwave : "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally."
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Ghoest
277
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Posted - 2012.03.15 13:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:What we're really seeing here is everyone is SCARED SHITLESS of a nerf of THIER isk or mineral faucets & everyone is SCREAMING NERF THE OTHER GUY NOT ME preempitively trying to bolster thier arguements... lol SCREAM HAVOC AND LET LOOSE THE DOGS OF WAR!!!
Many people are scared of losing their income I think.
But the problem(if you even consider it a problem) isnt that the faucets has grown bigger. The problem is just that as whole were earning more and more relative to how much we burn - by choice.
Our mentality has become basically the opposite of the average American/British/whatever consumer. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
251
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 13:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:Andski wrote:the gripe about incursions has nothing to do with inflation, it's the comparatively low risk in contrast with nullsec anomalies and wormhole sleeper sites
i hope this has provided some valuable insight in this discussion Now you are saying that but before it was all about the :isk faucet: It is the most efficient way most players can inject ISK into the economy. And that with almost zero risk too. Now you can argue that it is actually good for the game if you want to look like a fool. |
Doomhowler II Augustus
Incestuous Cult of Paranoid Swamp People
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 13:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
don't bother looking for a 'gold standard' in eve, there is none neither there should be tbh.
the sinks guarantee the ultimate value of isk - you can buy a harbinger bpo for a certain amount of isk and that won't change unless ccp decides to do it, same for any other sink. and it has to be isk: you can't pay for your corp hangar in thrashers - you have to sell the thrashers to someone who got isk from a faucet in order to pay your hangar tax.
regarding plex, minerals etc - whenever you look at them, never forget that speculators are causing price increases. |
highonpop
Void.Tech BLACK-MARK
28
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Posted - 2012.03.15 14:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
I Blame Incursions!!!
Even thought more ISK is generate through bounties than missions and incursion combined...
I see other people blame incursions, so I think I should too! It's obviously killing this game! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5565
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 14:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:As a result everyone is now scrambling to best defend their own patch (still including incursions) as a result of the "perceived" changes CCP will likley apply to combat interpreted inflationary problems.
So its kind of a kneejerk reaction that a global reduction in bounties and some tweaks to sinks which together may not be so significant a change to make inflation less of a concern on a macro scale by CCP is causing some people headaches.
As a result you could say it might have backfired a little on those who originally started the propoganda as a result? It's quite simple, really.
You have a bathtub full of water, and it's slowly overflowing because you left the tap on. Now, to improve things, you bring in the garden hose and let it loose in the bathtub as well, and omigosh, now it's really overflowing!
The question is: was the problem that the bathtub was already full, that you left the tap on, or that you made the excellent decision to add the hose as well?
No. It did not backfire GÇö the argument is still that adding the hose at that point was a monumentally retarded idea, especially if the goal of the exercise was to just flush some water through that hose. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
11
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 14:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:As a result everyone is now scrambling to best defend their own patch (still including incursions) as a result of the "perceived" changes CCP will likley apply to combat interpreted inflationary problems.
So its kind of a kneejerk reaction that a global reduction in bounties and some tweaks to sinks which together may not be so significant a change to make inflation less of a concern on a macro scale by CCP is causing some people headaches.
As a result you could say it might have backfired a little on those who originally started the propoganda as a result? It's quite simple, really. You have a bathtub full of water, and it's slowly overflowing because you left the tap on. Now, to improve things, you bring in the garden hose and let it loose in the bathtub as well, and omigosh, now it's really overflowing! The question is: was the problem that the bathtub was already full, that you left the tap on, or that you made the excellent decision to add the hose as well? No. It did not backfire GÇö the argument is still that adding the hose at that point was a monumentally retar ded idea, especially if the goal of the exercise was to just flush some water through that hose.
Nice one!
CCP Soundwave wrote:Someone already posted the numbers, the majority of isk in EVE comes off bounties and if anything, we should be reviewing the current bounties on battleship NPCs.
Great idea! Perhaps you should replace dronepoo with bounties, that helps.... right?
[img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif[/img]
This needs fixin' |
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Ghoest
277
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Posted - 2012.03.15 15:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tippia wrote: It's quite simple, really.
You have a bathtub full of water, and it's slowly overflowing because you left the tap on. Now, to improve things, you bring in the garden hose and let it loose in the bathtub as well, and omigosh, now it's really overflowing!
The question is: was the problem that the bathtub was already full, that you left the tap on, or that you made the excellent decision to add the hose as well?
No. It did not backfire GÇö the argument is still that adding the hose at that point was a monumentally retarded idea, especially if the goal of the exercise was to just flush some water through that hose.
Pleasant analogy - but It doesnt really fit. Why?
Because EVE isnt one big tub. Its 1000s of little containers each with its own own guy controlling the spigot and drain. Yes the Devs can change the water pressure - but if everyone closes the drain and opens the spigot you are going to flood. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5572
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 15:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:Pleasant analogy - but It doesnt really fit. Why?
Because EVE isnt one big tub. Its 1000s of little containers each with its own own guy controlling the spigot and drain. Yes the Devs can change the water pressure - but if everyone closes the drain and opens the spigot you are going to flood. GǪexcept that it's not the individual level that is interesting GÇö it's the larger picture (the entire bath tub), and that the devs most certainly can control the spigots and drains (in fact, I'd say that the one thing they can't control is the size of the bath tubGǪ well, not directly at least GÇö they can accidentally knock it all over and put a huge volume-consuming dent in it like they did last spring and summer). The drains, in particular, are quite hard to avoid for the individual.
They've done it before; they can do it again; and in this particular instance, they did it in a less than clever way. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
TuonelanOrja
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 20:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Inflation= Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).
Only that has been raised on long term is PLEX. Other products have gone up and down. Mostly changes on game mechanics causes product price changes.
I would say that in game prices deflate but plex inflate so what is actually happening if you do not use plex.
People have more isk to use so they can use it for out of game item as plex. In game item prices does not raise, because people are manufacturing those as cheap as they can and selling with small profits without adjusting prices to PLEX price changes. Bad was once wrong, then I woke up.. Not a veteran, just bitter.. |
masternerdguy
Navy of Xoc
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 20:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
We have infinite supplies of minerals, missions, and other goodies with the only limit on collecting them being time. We have something that is almost but not quite a post scarcity economy. Thus everyone is rich :) |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
15
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 20:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Roh Voleto wrote:Some people think that PLEX is the closest thing EVE has to gold, but in reality PLEX has a tangible value and is subject to use based market forces, rather than being being something only people with big noses and compulsive hoarding disorder care about. The real "gold-standard" of EVE are bounty payouts, and what killing a single rat will buy you. Based on this,I can say very certain: That NPC seeded skill books had the same price for the last two years.
I don't think the 'rat-standard' works because the EVE-players have become increasingly able in vanquishing said rat. PLEX is a much better one because it has the commutable value of a month of playtime. The whole AUR exchange business probably pollutes it a bit, but the effect should be minimal due to the unpopularity of the Nexus Store.
As for the skillbooks, I doubt they really count. It'd be the same as products price-controlled by a government, so it no good indicator for inflation.
Minerals aren't very good either because their prices are influenced too much by external factors. [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif[/img]
This needs fixin' |
Ghoest
277
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 20:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ghoest wrote:Pleasant analogy - but It doesnt really fit. Why?
Because EVE isnt one big tub. Its 1000s of little containers each with its own own guy controlling the spigot and drain. Yes the Devs can change the water pressure - but if everyone closes the drain and opens the spigot you are going to flood. GǪexcept that it's not the individual level that is interesting GÇö it's the larger picture (the entire bath tub), and that the devs most certainly can control the spigots and drains (in fact, I'd say that the one thing they can't control is the size of the bath tubGǪ well, not directly at least GÇö they can accidentally knock it all over and put a huge volume-consuming dent in it like they did last spring and summer). The drains, in particular, are quite hard to avoid for the individual. They've done it before; they can do it again; and in this particular instance, they did it in a less than clever way.
You have now failed at extending an analogy - that you embraced.
The whole point of this thread is that most of the individual parts change in the same direction you get new results. The individual results matter when they start being similar to one another.
The player bases psychology and competency has changed over time.
On a speculative side note perhaps Incarna and its aftermath are part of the reason for a change in psychology. I not going to try to figure mass psycology out. But I know that personally I ended up playing the game differently over the last year than I did before with out really intending to. I play less but more efficiently. My net value went up while losses went to practically 0. I am playing the game for free, I guess Im to disinterested to bother fighting anyone, but Im still earning some income for some irrational reason, probably hoping Ill want something eventually.
Im not suggesting other people are following my unplanned path and motivations, but we are all better at playing the game than we used to be so it stands to reason well all make more money. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
414
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 20:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:If you use PLEX as the gold standard, it is easy to see inflation. Minerals can not be a gold standard, since there is for all intents and purposes an infinite supply:
Rubbish. There is are some very real contraints on the supply of minerals, namely the rate at which they can be successfully harvested. There are also plenty of other bottlenecks, like how many production slots are available, how efficiently minerals are converted into goods, etc.
And finally this "infinite supply" you misname is also balanced by an inappropriately named "infinite demand", since theoretically every single ship in EVE can be destroyed. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 23:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
Considering that the creation of isk in the economy (faucets) was already balanced to the point of being only slightly faster than the isk was being drained out via taxes, buying clones, ect... adding about 25% more creation rate via incursions was a terribly bad idea by itself. On top of that, they are too low risk for the reward. They should be toned down regardless of inflation rates.
The upside, though, is that it's isk generation that can't be automated by macrotard bots all the live long day. This, I am in favor of. Now, if they were to decrease the rate at which isk could be generated via bot-able activities in an equal magnitude of incursions isk creation rate then we'd have a great shift of income from botters to players who aren't cheating. This would be great, though only a single step in the right direction. The botters would likely just start up more mining bots - but at least those aren't pumping isk into the economy. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
375
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 23:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
There is a question as to whether inflation in this economy is a significant factor. I suggest a good yardstick might be progressing a n00b through the tutorials, the succession of ships up to the BC class and level III mission running. Is there a significant increase in the time it takes from day one to a meta 3 equipped BC? If so, there's two measures; prices and income. If the prices in relation to income are significantly out of synch, then getting to the meta 3 BC class from day one will be a good overall measure, as most of the purchases involved are within a narrow line of must have items from skillbooks to mods.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
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